Author Topic: I became convinced that marriage begins in God's sight with betrothal (promise)  (Read 308 times)

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Offline Cally

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Or engagement, or whatever agreement is originally made. Alternatively it begins with sexual relations according to Exodus 22:16, provided the woman is marriageable ("the two will become one flesh" occurs with a prostitute even, but joining to a defiled woman is sin explained in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20).

https://youtu.be/182MNy8JAwk

Offline Bemark

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 I agree.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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The Old Testament doesn't say much about marriage.

Pretty much everything the Bible says on the subject comes from the New Testament.

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Offline DaveW

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The Old Testament doesn't say much about marriage.
No - but we can learn a lot from the 2nd temple period writings of the Jewish sages of that era; as to how they applied what WAS in the OT.

And remember, that was the back drop for what the apostles wrote in the NT.

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Online Jaime

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Was God wedded to Israel BEFORE he exchanged wedding vows (10 commandments) with them on Mt Sinai?

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Was God wedded to Israel BEFORE he exchanged wedding vows (10 commandments) with them on Mt Sinai?
Yes.   God cut covenant with Abraham, and that covenant was passed down to Isaac and Jacob (aka Israel).  That's the "wedding" type of covenant.

The covenant at Sinai is actually a different covenant.  The terms and conditions of that covenant are more in line with the kind of covenant that would be cut between a lord and his vassals or peasantry.  Not so much a wedding.

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Online Jaime

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There is so much wedding imagery there to me. In fact God felt like they (his bride) had committed adultery with the Golden Calf.

https://jewishjournal.com/judaism/181663/

In fact there was a wedding feast on Mt Sinai.

Exodus 24:9-11
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 19:55:56 by Jaime »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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In fact there was a wedding feast on Mt Sinai.

Exodus 24:9-11
My memory of this is that the mountain was on fire, and the people were afraid to go near it.  Perhaps rightfully so.  The elders basically said 'let's not do this anymore' and wanted Moses to act as intermediary rather than meeting God.  Found it...

And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

From Deuteronomy 5, the most important chapter in the Bible. ::smile::

Online Jaime

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Yes the people were terrified. But the wedding feast happened. Am I the only person on here that had always heard of the marriage imagery on Mt Sinai? I assume @DaveW had as well attending a Messianic congregation. As with many things about the Jews and God, it didn’t turn out as planned. But the Jews were God’s segulah or prized possession or bride, and the happenings on Mt Sinai was the wedding, and the 10 commandments were the vows, and the golden calf was the bride’s act of adultery.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 15:46:04 by Jaime »

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Offline Cally

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Quote
The Old Testament doesn't say much about marriage.

Pretty much everything the Bible says on the subject comes from the New Testament.

I'm thinking that there's going to be a massive argument over semantics behind this statement. The Old Testament is full of laws regarding who a woman does or doesn't belong to and punishes violations as the sin of adultery. If you want to play games around the word "marriage" being used or not, it's beside the point.

At any rate, the reason I'm convinced that this belonging of a woman to a particular man begins with the promise is because otherwise, Israel's law would have essentially obligated people to be stoned to death as adulterers in what God considered a legitimate marriage: for example, if a woman ran off on her betrothed, was "taken" (or whatever word we feel like using) by another man some other place (potentially not knowing anything about the betrothal) and even consummated, and if they were caught by Israel doing this they'd be stoned wrongfully for adultery whereas God considered the "adulterous" couple legitimately married.

Offline Texas Conservative

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How does the OT view of marriage under The Law apply to Christians now?  Serious question.

Online Jaime

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This discussion began as a discussion of betrothal. The marriage at Sinai gives a glimpse of God, and how he feels about his bride. WE are his Bride in the NT. Everything in the OT gives us more context about God, since he is an unchanging God. The OT and NT are just one story TOGETHER - God’s redemption for all of mankind.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 19:25:57 by Jaime »

Offline Cally

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Quote
How does the OT view of marriage under The Law apply to Christians now?  Serious question.

1. Because much of the OT law applies today, outside of sacrifices for sins and ceremonial washings, albeit in different ways like when Paul quote "you must purge the evil from among you", while meaning a stoning in Israel, still applies for removing someone living in sin from the church. Or, Paul quotes "you will not muzzle the ox while he is treading the grain" twice in the New Testament very much as applying today. There is no reason to believe marriage laws changed.

2. God's eternal view of when marriage began could not have outright conflicted with the law given to Israel. If God Himself didn't consider betrothal to be the beginning of a woman belonging to her husband and vice-versa, then a woman who ran off on her betrothed and married another man would have legitimately been married in God's sight while the law given to Israel calls them adulterers.

Offline DaveW

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How does the OT view of marriage under The Law apply to Christians now?  Serious question.
Much of what our Lord taught us was using the imagery of the 2nd temple period wedding customs, especially end time prophesies. 

So I would say quite a lot.

Offline DaveW

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Am I the only person on here that had always heard of the marriage imagery on Mt Sinai? I assume @DaveW had as well attending a Messianic congregation.
Hardly the only person.  It is a common understanding in Orthodox Judaism. Most other movements in Judaism recognize it as well, including us Messianics.
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the happenings on Mt Sinai was the wedding, and the 10 commandments were the vows,
And the cloud cover was the Chuppah.

A wedding party under a chuppah.
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and the golden calf was the bride’s act of adultery.
Yes -  that is the understanding.  In fact my Artscroll (orthodox publisher) commentary on Song of Solomon is packed with remorse for the golden calf incident.