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sjorgens

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If Salvation is conditional?
« on: April 24, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »
If salvation is conditional, what makes Christianity any different than any other rigid religion? Wouldn't Islam be a better way to go because its more centered on your works and in some countries that are dominated by that religion, they offer up the morality police and Sharia law to help you find your way back if you back slide?

On a human righteous level, Muslims are far more righteous than Christians because they have much more to be afraid of even in this life.


I'm no theologian but it would seem to me that teaching someone that they can lose their salvation would trigger fear rather than trust and force the person to focus on their sin as opposed to what Christ achieved on the cross for them.

Why do denominations who teach conditional Salvation sing song's like Amazing Grace?

If I were Satan, my masterpiece wouldn't be sex drugs and rock n roll. It would be religion propelled by convincing someone that Christ's atonement on the cross is not quite enough and that imputed righteousness is too good to be true.


How can you ever really even overcome sin if you are still convinced it has a grip on your eternity?

Honestly I don't really know if eternal security is true. I have heard compelling arguements from both sides of the issue.  The Church I attended for many years ascribed to conditional security.

To me though, being saved only because you simply asked Christ to save you with a sincere heart is a radical departure from every other ism or ology is history. The thief on the cross type faith.


thief


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If Salvation is conditional?
« on: April 24, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »

Offline pointmade

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 11:32:49 PM »
sjorgens: "To me though, being saved only because you simply asked Christ to save you with a sincere heart is a radical departure from every other ism or ology is history. The thief on the cross type faith.

Good post.....do you believe the "heart" is the seat of security?
I guess the question can be asked: where does "grace" take place?
Is grace optional?

I for one have no problem with the thief being saved.
I can read in Mark 2:10 "that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins."
The thief was verbably forgiven.

Since Jesus no longer dwells here on earth I do not have the luxury of the thief.
Mark has written in chapter 16: He that believes and is baptized shall be saved,
but he that believes not shall be condemned."
Would that be conditional or not?




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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 11:32:49 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 11:52:55 PM »
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18

Nothing speaks more clearly regarding the Word than the Word speaking on it's on behalf

Notice in the verse above BELIEVING is mentioned 3 times

For those of us who study the bible, by the Spirit of God

We know that any time

someting is mentioned 3 Times in one verse....its a done deal

SALVATION IS BASED UPON BELIEVING

and believing cannot be chosen

It must come to you

You cannot choose to believe for belief is not rational reasonable or logical nor is it contingent on a set of indisputable facts

Either you believe or you do not

Once you do believe.... no facts, no logic, no reason...NOTHING AT ALL, no matter how convincing
can persuade you otherwise

So no Salvation is not conditional because it only comes by BELIEVING and Believing is not a condition one can meet by ones own will



 

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 11:52:55 PM »

sjorgens

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2011, 02:32:39 AM »
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18

Nothing speaks more clearly regarding the Word than the Word speaking on it's on behalf

Notice in the verse above BELIEVING is mentioned 3 times

For those of us who study the bible, by the Spirit of God

We know that any time

someting is mentioned 3 Times in one verse....its a done deal

SALVATION IS BASED UPON BELIEVING

and believing cannot be chosen

It must come to you

You cannot choose to believe for belief is not rational reasonable or logical nor is it contingent on a set of indisputable facts

Either you believe or you do not

Once you do believe.... no facts, no logic, no reason...NOTHING AT ALL, no matter how convincing
can persuade you otherwise

So no Salvation is not conditional because it only comes by BELIEVING and Believing is not a condition one can meet by ones own will



 

Yes...The only reason I've ever doubted is that people who know more about the Bible than me have told me I should doubt based on whether or not I was naughty or nice. I try t be nice but sometimes I fall. I never feel proud about falling but if you are going to question your salvation just because you have room for improvement or you sin, you will never rest in your salvation and whatever freeing power salvation might have gets crushed.

Other than the initial decision to believe in Jesus, I don't see how we can get any credit whatsoever for salvation. Its all on Jesus otherwise we could and should get glory for what we've done.

Why  does so much of Christianity teach conditional salvation? Could this doctrine actually be Satanic?

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2011, 02:32:39 AM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline zoonance

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »
The difference of religions should never be reduced to 'conditional versus unconditional' as the litmus test of superiority.  The difference is contact with the blood of Christ or not.

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »



Offline chestertonrules

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 06:54:15 AM »
If salvation is conditional, what makes Christianity any different than any other rigid religion? 

Salvation is conditional.  We have the choice of accepting or rejecting the grace of Jesus.

We must make this choice throughout our lives.

God became man one time in the person of Jesus, which makes Christianity unique.

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 06:54:15 AM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2011, 07:08:02 AM »

SALVATION IS BASED UPON BELIEVING
 

If salvation is based upon something, anything, then, by definition, that means that salvation is conditional upon that.

Offline candy

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2011, 07:11:42 AM »
My take on this is that God looks deep into our hearts and already knows who believes and who doesn't.  I stand with Gospel's take in that you either are a believer or you're not.  When one accepts Jesus one wants to do good works.  It isn't about law, it's about the love.  We already know the law doesn't work for us as the only person who ever completed the law perfectly was Jesus.  We have to come by faith and know it is only God's grace that gets us to heaven and nothing we do will ever be great enough for God, except Jesus blood.  It truly is in Him that we are saved.
Candy

Offline Volkmar

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2011, 07:16:55 AM »
Salvation is conditioned upon one thing--God's determination to save.  God is no longer in the condemnation business.  He has choosen to be fully engaged in the saving business ("...that God in Christ is reconciling the WORLD to Himself.")  We can choose to live in that reality or we can choose to not live in that reality.  The reality doesn't change because of our choosing, but what we choose changes us.


V

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2011, 07:16:55 AM »

Offline chosenone

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2011, 07:20:37 AM »
Salvation is conditional.

Jesus said "You are my friends if you do what I command" John 15:14

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


The condition here is to endure to the end. We are not yet saved, we are being saved - and if we endure we will be saved.

Some Christians these days want a Joel Osteen type of "gospel" They want to believe that they don't need to be holy, that they don't need to obey God. They want to live like the world and still expect to go to heaven because they "once believed"
Satan and the demons believe - Jesus is God whether you believe or not.

If anything the "once saved always saved" doctrine is Satanic.




What is worng with Joel? He is one of only 2 American teachers on God tv  who my husband and I will watch(the other is Joyce Meyer). I woudnt give most of the others the time of day. His gospel message is spot on as far as I can tell. He has the most amazing gift of encouragement.

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2011, 07:20:37 AM »

Offline Volkmar

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2011, 07:34:17 AM »
What is worng with Joel? He is one of only 2 American teachers on God tv  who my husband and I will watch(the other is Joyce Meyer). I woudnt give most of the others the time of day. His gospel message is spot on as far as I can tell. He has the most amazing gift of encouragement.


That's telling....

Perhaps the next time you gather with the New Frontiers folks you should ask "what is the Gospel"?


V

Offline comfy

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2011, 07:58:37 AM »
"'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.'" (John 17:12)

So, Jesus did not lose anyone who our Heavenly Father gave to Jesus . . . except the one who was "the son of perdition". And I understand "the son of perdition" was Judas who apparently never obeyed Jesus, but was into getting money. So, I can see that if our Father gives someone to Jesus, Jesus does not fail to keep that person.

But even though our Father gave Peter to Jesus, Peter denied Jesus three times. But before Peter denied Jesus three times, here is what Jesus said to Peter > "'But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.'" (Luke 22:32) So, Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him; so Jesus covered Peter in prayer, before Peter sinned against Jesus.

And this prayer was according to Jesus Christ's own faith; so Jesus' prayer was guaranteed to get better results than Peter could get by praying for himself according to his own faith ::smile:: So, not only did Jesus' prayer get Peter back, but Christ's prayer made him also able to strengthen his brethren, not only to get enough strength for himself. So . . . when we sin, Jesus Christ's intercession gets us back and also makes us able to love others as ourselves by ministering for others also to get stronger against sinning and get us more into living God's own love instead; "and you will find rest for your souls," (in Matthew 11:29) Jesus guarantees if we are walking with Him and learning how to personally submit to our Father and please Him (1 Peter 3:4) and care as much about others as our own selves.

So, if I am only worrying and arguing about what will or can happen just to me, I am not loving and caring about others as much as myself, not first busy with pleasing our Father; so this is not obeying how Jesus desires us to love. By the way, if you are the child of a human father whom you love so much, and you are in Daddy's lap and cherishing his warmth of affection, are you going to be thinking about how you can lose daddy ??? While Daddy's love is giving you such security, are you going to be asking, "Oh Daddy, what could I do that would have me lose you and stop being your child?" ???

"Are you going to be thinking of ways to get away from Daddy . . . to ice cream and candy . . . if you really love Daddy ??? "

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5) So, our assurance is our love life that we enjoy in submission and sharing with our Father; our assurance is not just some prayer we have said or Bible verse arguments. "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17) So, our scriptural reason for "boldness in the day of judgment" is how You, O LORD our Father, are making us perfect in Your love which makes us as You are "in this world."

Also, Hebrews 12:4-11 shows that our Father is succeeding at correcting us, "that we may be partakers of His holiness." (in Hebrews 12:10) He is doing this now, "in this world." "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8) So, our assurance includes how God is succeeding to correct us into how His love makes us holy, not to just stop doing certain wrong outward actions. So, by the way, it would not be enough, after we die, to be punished for certain sins, and be "purified", but now is the time to become loving with each other so we are prepared for how loving is for eternity.

And Your action, LORD, speaks louder than any words we can argue. So, this world does get people into a rut of arguing so our attention is away from where we belong.

Offline skala

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2011, 08:17:17 AM »
Justification is by faith.

Faith is a gift from God.

There is no shadow of turning in God.

Once a man is justified, he is declared righteous before God's court.  God's wrath no longer hangs over his head. Justice is satisfied.

Once a man has true saving faith, from God, and is justified, by God, and has his sins atoned for, by God (In Jesus), it's a done deal.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2011, 08:35:20 AM »
Justification is by faith.

Faith is a gift from God.

Why do you think that?

Offline pointmade

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Re: If Salvation is conditional?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2011, 08:36:34 AM »
sjogens writes: "SALVATION IS BASED UPON BELIEVING

and believing cannot be chosen

It must come to you

You cannot choose to believe for belief is not rational reasonable or logical nor is it contingent on a set of indisputable facts

Either you believe or you do not

Once you do believe.... no facts, no logic, no reason...NOTHING AT ALL, no matter how convincing
can persuade you otherwise

So no Salvation is not conditional because it only comes by BELIEVING and Believing is not a condition one"

Ok, let me get your reasoning:
You say "believing cannot be chosen."
King Agrippa "believed." According to Paul he was lost.
"Almost you have pesuaded me to be a Christian."
Did Aggripa have a choice after hearing Paul preach Christ or not?

You say "it must come to you." "Either you believe or you do not."
Are you saying "it" (belief) cannot come to you by logical deduction through 'study' by rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15)?

You are saying belief comes to ones subjective mind, controlled telipathically by a foreign spirit?
This would be a "miraculous reversal" of the human will. Right?
Could you site one occasion in the gospels where Jesus caused one to believe outside the preaching of the Word?

If belief (in your mind) is not rational, I suggest you do not stand behind a mule after being kicked the first time.
The logical convincing fact, or reasoning: he will kick you the second time.
Would this have any convincing persuasive power on your reasoning?

The logical answer through reasoning: not getting kicked again is conditional!
Or, do you believe by faith the mule will fall in love with you?

You may see this as a louzy analogy.
But , God first, is a "consuming fire." (Heb. 12:29).
He never changes...He expects, no, make that demands obedience.

Peter said at Pentecost "Harken unto my words,"
His words came from the throneroom of the King (Matthew 10:18-20).
By logical deduction I believe Peter's words as verbalized in Acts 2:38
Interesting, the word "believe" is not in the text.

By logical reasoning we can surmise the three thousand souls did believe.
Or why would they gladly receive Peter's word and submit to water baptism the same day (v. 41)?

No need to be kicked twice! They were fully aware of what Peter said in verses 22-23 of Acts 2.
"You have taken by wicked hands of lawless men crucified and slain Jesus of Nazareth."
The question: "what shall we do?" in verse 37 has the ramification of a condition to be acted upon.
There was no miraculous change of the will at Pentecost to cause belief.
If you are not going to "harken to Peter's word the choice is yours.


 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:11:06 AM by pointmade »