GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?  (Read 12707 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TomThumb

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« on: Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 23:49:57 »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   These two passages have always been sort of puzzling to me, and Im wondering if Im the only one??

On the one hand Paul says:

"Rom 6:2  Of course not! How can we who died as far as sin is concerned go on living in it?
Rom 6:3  Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore, through baptism we were buried with him into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have become united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6  We know that our old selves were crucified with him so that our sinful bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin.
Rom 6:7  For the person who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him"


Then in the next chapter he says:

Rom 7:15  I don't understand what I am doing. For I don't do what I want to do, but instead do what I hate.
Rom 7:16  Now if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17  As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.
Rom 7:19  For I don't do the good I want to do, but instead do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20  But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21  So I find this to be a law: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God in my inner being,
Rom 7:23  but I see in my body a different law waging war with the law in my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that exists in my body.
Rom 7:24  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25  Thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 
We are supposed to be dead to sin, yet we continue to sin, or more accurately put, --sin continues to live within us, --because he says: "I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me".

How do you understand this. Is this sort of a puzzler, or am I maybe making it more complicated than it need be? Its hard for me not to see contrasting verses (NOT contradictory) when chpt 6 seems to say that we are dead to sin, and yet chpt 7 grants that we continue to sin, --even though we are no longer,  technically the agents of the sin.  ??

That said, just in case I am misunderstood, I dont believe there are any contradictions in Bible --I am just not grasping what Paul is saying here.. and hence this post.. What do you think?

Christian Forums and Message Board

If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« on: Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 23:49:57 »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 01:03:50 »

Dear TomThumb, I believe the following thread "From Egypt to Canaan" (Part 9 of 17) I posted will help you. Please do not post on it but ask anything about it here. May God bless it to your understanding in Jesus' name.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/from-egypt-to-canaan-part-nine/msg648259/#


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 01:03:50 »

Offline vonny

  • I love Jesus
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1322
  • Manna: 72
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 04:51:26 »
Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 04:51:26 »

Offline comfy

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2356
  • Manna: 175
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 07:55:13 »
Hi, Tom . . . you gave us a quote of Romans 6:3:
Quote

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were

                  
baptized into his death?


I'd say if you understand what is meant by our being "baptized into His death", this can help you to understand everything else. So, before we go any further, what do you understand is meant by being baptized into Jesus Christ's death? And since this is part of our actual *experience* of becoming Christians, what has been your actual *experience* of this?

Our Apostle Paul also says, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13) So, I'm offering that what Paul says in the scriptures you have quoted is talking about actual spiritual things that the Holy Spirit is sharing and doing with us. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love; "the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit," we do have in Romans 5:5, which comes in the chapter before the scripture you quoted. This is part of the meaning of what you are asking about, part of what is involved in being "baptized into His death".

So, this is not just an intellectual theoretical-theological issue, but has to do with what God actually does with us in His own love. And God's love is absolutely beautifully wonderfully pure and sweet in Heaven's own pleasantness resting us and gently soothing and caressing us, through and through us, "in our hearts", it says; so this which God actually does with us is included in the meaning of the scriptures you are talking about ::idea:: ::smile::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 07:55:13 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 08:09:25 »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   

Because we do not stop being human beings when we are saved.  But once saved, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us do what is right.  That is the promise given to us.  The Spirit does not force us to do what is right, and therefore we don't always do what is right.  By the Spirit's help we can get better at it. That is the life long experience of sanctification.

As Paul says,

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 08:09:25 »



Offline canuck

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 959
  • Manna: 72
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 16:29:56 »
It has been fairly well stated already i.e. the flesh and the spirit are at war as per
Romans 7. It is true that we died to sin in and through our redemption. That means we no longer have to sin seeing the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Christian provides dominion over the lustings of the flesh (Rom. 6:12-14).

We encounter problems in obeying the Holy Spirit when we begin paying too much heed to the demands of the flesh -- feeding it rather than feeding on God's Word to sustain us in time of trial (see John 7:63). As Christ answered temptation with respect to the will of God, quoting Scripture, so should we. We who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit possess the same power to thwart the inclinations of the sinful flesh (exacerbated by the darts of Satan) as did Jesus Christ. Our trouble is clearly a lack of faith to rest on God's Word -- to dwell on it in time of temptation instead of contemplating the false promises of the flesh.

In 1863 President Abraham Lincoln signed into law the Emancipation Proclamation. At the end of the Civil War, there were thousands of slaves who were told they were now free and did not have to go out to the fields and pick cotton because Lincoln had set them free. They were dead to the bondage of slavery by edict of the supreme political authority. Yet, too many continued trudging out each morning to pick cotton for their former masters. Many were told they had to go and because they were so used to the old lifestyle, they had trouble coming to terms with the reality that they were under no compulsion to work in the hot sun from sunrise to sundown. They did not trust (believe ) in Lincoln's word.

Our conversion is something like that. Satan continues to yell at us and tell us we must continue sinning because that is the way it should be -- that we cannot gain satisfaction except we follow his way. All a lie, of course. And like the unbelieving slaves, we continue to go forth to " pick cotton."

canuck

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 16:29:56 »

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #6 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 17:58:51 »
Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.


 ::amen!::

larry2

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 19:23:04 »

Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.


Dear Vonny, so are you saying that you're willing to sin with only part of your will, and that makes it not willful sin?

You decide to speed 1 MPH over the speed limit because the rest of the traffic is doing it and that may keep you half way out of hell?

I read in Galatians 5:24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." To me this is past tense; "have crucified."

?  ?  ?  ?

 

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 19:30:29 »
There is no indication in Scripture that we become "perfect people" when we turn to God. Quite the contrary as Paul's writings suggest...

be transformed...
work out your own salvation...
mimic me.....
act as children of Light....

There really isn't any growth without challenge, and with challenge there is always imperfect performance (or there is no need for growth). Sin, quite frankly, is expected. The long-term desire to sin is not.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 07, 2010 - 19:30:29 »

the law

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Apr 10, 2010 - 20:29:53 »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   

Because we do not stop being human beings when we are saved.  But once saved, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us do what is right.  That is the promise given to us.  The Spirit does not force us to do what is right, and therefore we don't always do what is right.  By the Spirit's help we can get better at it. That is the life long experience of sanctification.

As Paul says,

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

From law: But what is right?

Peace

larry2

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #10 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 00:53:19 »

Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.

Offline anthony57

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 4
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #11 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 11:02:24 »
Scripture says the believer has died to sin, but not that sin has died to Him.

blu

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #12 on: Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 11:21:43 »
Yea! the flesh still lusteth after sin, and that is why we must mortify it. It is the saved soul/spirit that cannot sin because it is at one with God.
(1Jn 3:9)  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

the law

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 18:53:16 »

Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.



From law: So are you saying that you cannot sin any more Larry2?

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #14 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 19:38:19 »
People fail to understand that Sin is a thing that produces an act

We've died to the state of sin....not the acts

Jesus didn't commit sin He was made a thing called Sin


Righteousness is a thing that produces Righteous acts

We're alive to a state of righteousness....not the acts


We were made Righteous we did not do righteousness to be righteous

The Bible definition of a Sinner is a Non Believer in Jesus

A non Believer is a sinner whether they do acts of righteousness or not...that's why its so hard to tell a non believer who is living a good life they need to repent. They will tell you I don't hurt any one I don't do this and I don't do that so why do I need to repent of anything I'm already a good person

You can't argue their point unless you know that the bible says the worlds sin is to not to believe in Jesus

John 16
8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
On the other hand

Someone who believes in Jesus is a believer even though they commit acts of sin.

Bottom line sin is both a noun and a verb

We're freed from the bondage of slavery to the thing, the thing is no longer our master.

We're born into "state of " Sin we're Reborn into a "state of" Righteousness

That's Salvation.

Sin only permanently stops when we leave the body of flesh...does that mean we go on living like we are not saved, sinning without regard for our salvation.

Of course not we have a conscious now, we are no longer comfortable with acts of sin and eventually by and by we will be delivered from this and that, foul language.sexual lust, bad temper, impatience, bigotry, racism, hatred etc etc

As.......We......Go .....in The Way
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 17:47:12 by gospel »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 20:16:53 »


Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.


From law: So are you saying that you cannot sin any more Larry2?


Dear Law, 1 John 1:8 says "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." To confess our sins is to be forgiven as to our walk in Christ.

Eternally God is not looking on us in Adam any longer, but in Christ. When He sees us He sees Christ's new nature in us which sinneth not and have been judged as righteous.

Offline mikesayen

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Apr 26, 2010 - 19:07:59 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline mikesayen

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 00:54:23 »

Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.



From law: So are you saying that you cannot sin any more Larry2?





Law...I don't think God just takes away or stops us from sinning "out of the blue" (so to speak) . We as humans put our nose to the grindstone, get into programs and and do all sorts of things to deal with our besetting sins/destructive behaviors/addictions. Yet, then all this becomes is the flesh trying to create a lasting change to itself.   ::giggle::   Which is pretty silly to use the flesh (carnal/earthly efforts) to deal with the flesh. 

However, the non-carnal way, which means the non-familiar way,  is to truly do the opposite of what the flesh produces (Gal.5:16-18)...because when you are (agape) loving or peacemaking, then how in the world will you be able to as easily do the things of the flesh?? Loving crosses out deliberately harming...because you cannot do one and then do deliberately the other. (Gal.5:19-26)

We are now subject not to the law, but to love..which takes care of lawlessness towards those around us.
As long as we are in this earthly vessel we will desire to "sin" Gal 5:17, though we died to our flesh.  Our flesh desires the "lust of the eyes" "lust of the flesh" and "the pride of life".  Though we are free from sin, for by his wounds we were healed from being captive to sin any longer.  Only when we put off our flesh and sleep, will we truely live in the Spirit of God and not have the desire to sin.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 07:59:44 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 08:52:35 »
to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [/i]

He didn't say that there is now no wrong doing; he said there is now no condemnation for the wrong doing for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Being in Christ is a present tense conditional.  We must remain in him.

Sin can separate us from God.  Paul was quite explicit in this regard:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

This confirms what Jesus said:

John 15
 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Offline Giver

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Manna: 43
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 10:59:27 »
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ.  What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual.  Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people? “


Offline Giver

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Manna: 43
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 11:36:25 »
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ.  What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual.  Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people? “


My last post was to have included all of the following, but some how all but the last quote was posted.  I will try again. 

If one sins he or she has not ever known God.  One cannot know God unless the Holy Spirit has taught him or her to know God.  An unspiritual person will sin; he or she has no defense against Satan.

People who sin have to make excuses for themselves, because their conscience is letting them know sin is not acceptable.  The Holy Spirit tells people, but for many reasons people have become deaf to the Holy Spirit.

There is much scripture that tells us a spiritual Christian will not sin.  Scripture also tells us that if a spiritual person does decide to sin; there is no repentance for that person.

Example:
(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira

John tells us just what I have written. 

The Christian Church has failed to live the whole Word of God, and because of that has not been able to walk with the Spirit of God guiding it. 

Evidence of that is, a person who says they have been freed from committing sin, is made fun of by the vast majority of Christians.

People no longer have an understanding of what it means to be Spiritual.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ.  Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law.  Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.  My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning.  It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared.  No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 12:25:33 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 12:38:31 by gospel »

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 12:38:18 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40:18 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline Giver

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Manna: 43
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 13:12:44 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.”

Paul is going to speak about himself as if he was still a carnal man trying to obey the Law and the struggles he would go through and the way he would fail.  So the Jews trying to obey the “law” Rom 7:1 would see how man (Paul) would fail while trying to obey the “commandments” while still in their fleshly nature.

Paul is speaking figuratively about himself in the present tense as a (which he once was one of them) carnal man – as other Jews now realize of themselves (this of course excluding his conversion to Jesus Christ vs. 25).  Chapter 8 shows being dead to the old nature is the only way to obey the “righteous requirements of the Law” and live.

Romans 7:14-15 is not suppose to be for Christians but Jews trying to please God while under the Law.

Paul is speaking of reality.  Paul is describing what he went through every day.  Paul is explaining the struggles that we all go through every day.  In salvation we are not made perfect; we are forgiven. 

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


He didn't say that there is now no wrong doing; he said there is now no condemnation for the wrong doing for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Brace yourself....I totally agree with Jimmy on this post!
What is wrong, did you get tried of reading Romans?  I just believe you did not like or maybe understand what Paul was telling you.  You see Paul was telling you that before he became spiritual sin defeated him, but once he became spiritual he was able to defeat Satan. 

Now you can continue to ignore what I have posted, but you would do well to take what I say to Jesus.


(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 15:16:48 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #27 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 15:23:23 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 16:11:14 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.

Offline Giver

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Manna: 43
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #29 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 16:37:07 »
Romans 7:14-15 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand, For what I will to do, that I do not practice: but what I hate, that I do.”

Paul is going to speak about himself as if he was still a carnal man trying to obey the Law and the struggles he would go through and the way he would fail.  So the Jews trying to obey the “law” Rom 7:1 would see how man (Paul) would fail while trying to obey the “commandments” while still in their fleshly nature.

Paul is speaking figuratively about himself in the present tense as a (which he once was one of them) carnal man – as other Jews now realize of themselves (this of course excluding his conversion to Jesus Christ vs. 25).  Chapter 8 shows being dead to the old nature is the only way to obey the “righteous requirements of the Law” and live.

Romans 7:14-15 is not suppose to be for Christians but Jews trying to please God while under the Law.

Paul is speaking of reality.  Paul is describing what he went through every day.  Paul is explaining the struggles that we all go through every day.  In salvation we are not made perfect; we are forgiven. 

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4  in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


He didn't say that there is now no wrong doing; he said there is now no condemnation for the wrong doing for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Brace yourself....I totally agree with Jimmy on this post!
What is wrong, did you get tried of reading Romans?  I just believe you did not like or maybe understand what Paul was telling you.  You see Paul was telling you that before he became spiritual sin defeated him, but once he became spiritual he was able to defeat Satan. 

Now you can continue to ignore what I have posted, but you would do well to take what I say to Jesus.


(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”

You see Paul said: “through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”  Believe me you want to be set free from sin and death. 


Paul was not speaking about himself before and after salvation.  There is absolultely nothing there to suggest that.  Paul is describing the constant battle we all have.  He speaks in the present tense of those struggles.  But yes, we have been set free, but not from sin and death as you said; but rather from the law of sin and death.  Those are not the same thing.  Once again the confusion of what it means to be no longer under the law.  It is to be freed from the requirements of the law, i.e., the debt owed. 
You go ahead with your understanding of what Paul was saying.  I know you are taking the verse all wrong, but that is why people have not been able to come to a spiritual walk with Christ.  The Word of God has been twisted to mean just what people want it to mean.  Preachers have learned to tell people just what they want to hear. 

It is interesting to listen how people twist their way out of what John said in
(1 John 3: 3 - 9).  Also in (Hebrews 10:26-31) and (Hebrews 6:4).  As more and more scripture is pointed out the more twisting is done. 

Paul was no more talking about the Old law of sin and death then he was talking about an airplane.  Who ever made you believe such garbage needs to hide their head in shame.  Your are talking about a Paul who said, along many other words proving your statement wrong, (Galatians 5:16) “Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #30 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 17:00:34 »
I wonder have you ever had Jesus teach you anything about him?  

I have his word.  It is called the Bible.  It came by way of the Holy Spirit.  Perhaps you have something else you like better.

If one still deliberately commits sin he or she has never known God. If he or she did know God and deliberately sinned they would be going to Hell or be in Hell.

Have you deliberately ever gone even one mile per hour over the speed limit?  Have you ever deliberately crossed the solid yellow line before you should have when making a left turn?  If so, and I am guessing that you have done one of those, then you are by your own admission going to hell.  Have you ever deliberately been just a little deceitful, you know that little white lie, with your child, your spouse, your coworker, your boss?  Then according to you, you are on your way to hell.  Were you ever just a little less than truthful by what you deliberately didn't say?  Then according to you, you are going to hell.

You know what Giver?  There are so many ways that we all sin deliberately.  To think you are any different is really too much for me to even deal with right now.  

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #31 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 17:07:05 »
Quote
You go ahead with your understanding of what Paul was saying.  I know you are taking the verse all wrong, but that is why people have not been able to come to a spiritual walk with Christ.

People don't have a spiritual walk with Christ because they, like the tone of your comments in this post DO NOT WALK IN THE SPIRIT.

There is no way The Holy Spirit is the author of your comments...that would mean your comments are of your flesh and therefore not pleasing to God which is sin.

WHEN you walk in the spirit you WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH
not the other way around

THERE IS NO LAW against the Fruit produced in the life of the person who walks in the Spirit

Quote
The Word of God has been twisted to mean just what people want it to mean.  Preachers have learned to tell people just what they want to hear.

Not enough preachers teach WALKING IN THE SPIRIT
Too many preachers teach BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION through following rules producing "Christians" who are seemingly well behaved but inside are angry, bitter, resentful and easily offended from which flows a spirit of condemnation by which they harshly judge and criticize others.

Show me one place where Jesus speaking to a sinner....called the person a sinner, condemned them and judged them doomed.


Don't bother, you'd be wasting your time

Meanwhile ....I'll show you where He only spoke that way to self righteous religious people.  ::pondering::

The woman at the well was married 5 times and living with a man with whom she was not married.
Peter who walked, ate and lived with Jesus for 3 and half years, cursed and even lied denying Jesus 3 times in one night.....funny thing is Jesus told him he would, knew he would do it before he knew it  ::shrug::


Now....why don't you reflect and meditate on how Jesus dealt with these two circumstances and get back to us  ::reading::

As far as what Paul was saying, Paul was beaten, scourged, imprisoned, despised and hated for preaching Freedom from the Law!

Paul used to kill and imprison people for turning from the Law to believe in Christ...God showed him the light and used Him to preach Salvation through Jesus by Grace through Faith.....not by the ministration of death written in stone!

Who did Paul call foolish ...those who sin or those trying to go back to the Law?

Who did Paul call Bewitched....those who sin or those trying to go back to the Law?

Who did Paul say fell from Grace....those who sin or those trying to go back to the Law?

What was Paul talking about when He said yoke of bondage? Sin or the Law?

Offline Giver

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Manna: 43
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #32 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 18:35:42 »
You don’t see the irony of what you all are doing?  Here most of you are, people who are admitting they sin, and you are trying to lead people to God?

Instead of answering the scriptures I quoted, I am getting accused of being a sinner. 

Some seem to think that because Jesus sat and associated with sinners that he approved of them.  Apparently forgetting that he always told them to go and sin no more.

Do you remember what Jesus said to religious leaders who were sinners and were trying to lead people to God?

(Matthew 23:27-28) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If one deliberately commits a sin they do not know God, and are no different then the Pharisees that Jesus was addressing. 

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 18:40:13 »
Giver,

Are you seriously telling us that you do not sin anymore at all ever?

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 18:42:27 »
Quote
Do you remember what Jesus said to religious leaders who were sinners and were trying to lead people to God?

(Matthew 23:27-28) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.


You said the religious leaders were sinners. However don't forget they were experts in the Law, in the rituals, in the ceremonies. These men like Paul said of himself, was blameless in the Law.
 
They knew the Law coming and going, inside out, from top to bottom and did not miss a tick or a tally.

Just to go into the Holy of Holies the High Priest had have a rope tied around his ankle just in case he died in the presence of God before the Ark. He had to be absolutely blameless regarding the Law. If he were not he would die in there and have to be dragged out by the rope...did you know that?

So what you are missing and whats most important for you to understand is the answer to this question .....

since as you said they were sinners what sins were they guilty of?

What Laws did they violate?

 ::shrug::
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 27, 2010 - 18:54:09 by gospel »