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Author Topic: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?  (Read 11380 times)

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Offline TomThumb

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If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« on: April 06, 2010, 10:49:57 PM »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   These two passages have always been sort of puzzling to me, and Im wondering if Im the only one??

On the one hand Paul says:

"Rom 6:2  Of course not! How can we who died as far as sin is concerned go on living in it?
Rom 6:3  Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore, through baptism we were buried with him into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have become united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6  We know that our old selves were crucified with him so that our sinful bodies might be rendered powerless and we might no longer be slaves to sin.
Rom 6:7  For the person who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him"


Then in the next chapter he says:

Rom 7:15  I don't understand what I am doing. For I don't do what I want to do, but instead do what I hate.
Rom 7:16  Now if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17  As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but I cannot carry it out.
Rom 7:19  For I don't do the good I want to do, but instead do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20  But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21  So I find this to be a law: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God in my inner being,
Rom 7:23  but I see in my body a different law waging war with the law in my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that exists in my body.
Rom 7:24  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25  Thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 
We are supposed to be dead to sin, yet we continue to sin, or more accurately put, --sin continues to live within us, --because he says: "I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me".

How do you understand this. Is this sort of a puzzler, or am I maybe making it more complicated than it need be? Its hard for me not to see contrasting verses (NOT contradictory) when chpt 6 seems to say that we are dead to sin, and yet chpt 7 grants that we continue to sin, --even though we are no longer,  technically the agents of the sin.  ??

That said, just in case I am misunderstood, I dont believe there are any contradictions in Bible --I am just not grasping what Paul is saying here.. and hence this post.. What do you think?

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If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« on: April 06, 2010, 10:49:57 PM »

larry2

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:03:50 AM »

Dear TomThumb, I believe the following thread "From Egypt to Canaan" (Part 9 of 17) I posted will help you. Please do not post on it but ask anything about it here. May God bless it to your understanding in Jesus' name.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/from-egypt-to-canaan-part-nine/msg648259/#


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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 12:03:50 AM »

Offline vonny

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 03:51:26 AM »
Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 03:51:26 AM »

Offline comfy

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 06:55:13 AM »
Hi, Tom . . . you gave us a quote of Romans 6:3:
Quote

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were

                  
baptized into his death?


I'd say if you understand what is meant by our being "baptized into His death", this can help you to understand everything else. So, before we go any further, what do you understand is meant by being baptized into Jesus Christ's death? And since this is part of our actual *experience* of becoming Christians, what has been your actual *experience* of this?

Our Apostle Paul also says, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13) So, I'm offering that what Paul says in the scriptures you have quoted is talking about actual spiritual things that the Holy Spirit is sharing and doing with us. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love; "the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit," we do have in Romans 5:5, which comes in the chapter before the scripture you quoted. This is part of the meaning of what you are asking about, part of what is involved in being "baptized into His death".

So, this is not just an intellectual theoretical-theological issue, but has to do with what God actually does with us in His own love. And God's love is absolutely beautifully wonderfully pure and sweet in Heaven's own pleasantness resting us and gently soothing and caressing us, through and through us, "in our hearts", it says; so this which God actually does with us is included in the meaning of the scriptures you are talking about ::idea:: ::smile::
Be patient, "with all lowliness and gentleness,
                       with longsuffering,
          bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 06:55:13 AM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 07:09:25 AM »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   

Because we do not stop being human beings when we are saved.  But once saved, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us do what is right.  That is the promise given to us.  The Spirit does not force us to do what is right, and therefore we don't always do what is right.  By the Spirit's help we can get better at it. That is the life long experience of sanctification.

As Paul says,

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 07:09:25 AM »



Offline canuck

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 03:29:56 PM »
It has been fairly well stated already i.e. the flesh and the spirit are at war as per
Romans 7. It is true that we died to sin in and through our redemption. That means we no longer have to sin seeing the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Christian provides dominion over the lustings of the flesh (Rom. 6:12-14).

We encounter problems in obeying the Holy Spirit when we begin paying too much heed to the demands of the flesh -- feeding it rather than feeding on God's Word to sustain us in time of trial (see John 7:63). As Christ answered temptation with respect to the will of God, quoting Scripture, so should we. We who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit possess the same power to thwart the inclinations of the sinful flesh (exacerbated by the darts of Satan) as did Jesus Christ. Our trouble is clearly a lack of faith to rest on God's Word -- to dwell on it in time of temptation instead of contemplating the false promises of the flesh.

In 1863 President Abraham Lincoln signed into law the Emancipation Proclamation. At the end of the Civil War, there were thousands of slaves who were told they were now free and did not have to go out to the fields and pick cotton because Lincoln had set them free. They were dead to the bondage of slavery by edict of the supreme political authority. Yet, too many continued trudging out each morning to pick cotton for their former masters. Many were told they had to go and because they were so used to the old lifestyle, they had trouble coming to terms with the reality that they were under no compulsion to work in the hot sun from sunrise to sundown. They did not trust (believe ) in Lincoln's word.

Our conversion is something like that. Satan continues to yell at us and tell us we must continue sinning because that is the way it should be -- that we cannot gain satisfaction except we follow his way. All a lie, of course. And like the unbelieving slaves, we continue to go forth to " pick cotton."

canuck

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 03:29:56 PM »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 04:58:51 PM »
Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.


 ::amen!::
Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."

larry2

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 06:23:04 PM »

Sin is still in our flesh, but we are not enslaved by a will to sin any more, because the spirit is alive. It means we can't go in sinning with our whole will,our consent. Where it was natural, almost compulsive before regeneration, now it is uncomfortable, and doesn't feel right or natural to us any more. We can also choose to crucify the flesh, where before that wasn't possible, and overcome it by walking in the spirit.


Dear Vonny, so are you saying that you're willing to sin with only part of your will, and that makes it not willful sin?

You decide to speed 1 MPH over the speed limit because the rest of the traffic is doing it and that may keep you half way out of hell?

I read in Galatians 5:24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." To me this is past tense; "have crucified."

?  ?  ?  ?

 

Offline HRoberson

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 06:30:29 PM »
There is no indication in Scripture that we become "perfect people" when we turn to God. Quite the contrary as Paul's writings suggest...

be transformed...
work out your own salvation...
mimic me.....
act as children of Light....

There really isn't any growth without challenge, and with challenge there is always imperfect performance (or there is no need for growth). Sin, quite frankly, is expected. The long-term desire to sin is not.
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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 06:30:29 PM »

the law

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 07:29:53 PM »
Why is it that we who have died to sin continue sinning?   

Because we do not stop being human beings when we are saved.  But once saved, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us do what is right.  That is the promise given to us.  The Spirit does not force us to do what is right, and therefore we don't always do what is right.  By the Spirit's help we can get better at it. That is the life long experience of sanctification.

As Paul says,

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

From law: But what is right?

Peace

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 07:29:53 PM »

larry2

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 11:53:19 PM »

Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.

Offline anthony57

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 10:02:24 AM »
Scripture says the believer has died to sin, but not that sin has died to Him.

blu

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 10:21:43 AM »
Yea! the flesh still lusteth after sin, and that is why we must mortify it. It is the saved soul/spirit that cannot sin because it is at one with God.
(1Jn 3:9)  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

the law

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 05:53:16 PM »

Romans 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign (You are dead to sin) in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him (We are dead to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. (We are dead to sin)

Romans 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (We are dead to sin, not to death of our bodies)
 
1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (We are dead to sin); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (Us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
 
1 Peter 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible (We are dead to sin), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My thoughts.



From law: So are you saying that you cannot sin any more Larry2?

Offline gospel

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Re: If we have died to sin, why do we continue to sin?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 06:38:19 PM »
People fail to understand that Sin is a thing that produces an act

We've died to the state of sin....not the acts

Jesus didn't commit sin He was made a thing called Sin


Righteousness is a thing that produces Righteous acts

We're alive to a state of righteousness....not the acts


We were made Righteous we did not do righteousness to be righteous

The Bible definition of a Sinner is a Non Believer in Jesus

A non Believer is a sinner whether they do acts of righteousness or not...that's why its so hard to tell a non believer who is living a good life they need to repent. They will tell you I don't hurt any one I don't do this and I don't do that so why do I need to repent of anything I'm already a good person

You can't argue their point unless you know that the bible says the worlds sin is to not to believe in Jesus

John 16
8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
On the other hand

Someone who believes in Jesus is a believer even though they commit acts of sin.

Bottom line sin is both a noun and a verb

We're freed from the bondage of slavery to the thing, the thing is no longer our master.

We're born into "state of " Sin we're Reborn into a "state of" Righteousness

That's Salvation.

Sin only permanently stops when we leave the body of flesh...does that mean we go on living like we are not saved, sinning without regard for our salvation.

Of course not we have a conscious now, we are no longer comfortable with acts of sin and eventually by and by we will be delivered from this and that, foul language.sexual lust, bad temper, impatience, bigotry, racism, hatred etc etc

As.......We......Go .....in The Way
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:47:12 PM by gospel »
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