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Author Topic: IM in the churches of Christ  (Read 6215 times)

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Offline spurly

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2003, 07:53:21 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hey everyone,

This question is really a matter of theology and hermeneutics. If you hold silence to be prohibitive in matters of the assembly then there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you hold silence to mean there are allowances in matters of the assembly then you can use instruments in NT worship.

If you believe in a hardline CENI type hermeneutic for the practice of the \"church\" there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you have a more loose hermeneutic (not meaning to be perjoritive) you will say that it's allowable because the scriptures don't say \"don't do it.\"

Well, who's right? I know why I sing acapella. I know also why I think it's allowable for me to enjoy gospel music that's not acapella. My question is for those who think it's alright to have it in worship is, \"Do you think that the worship assembly is commanded by God and must the activities during this time have a scriptural authorization? Or is Sunday worship just a convenient time to fellowship with other believers and share the love of Christ?\"

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic at all. I just think that if we can answer this question we could come to a better understanding on the whole IM dilemma. :saint:  :noddingsmiley:[/quote]
Are we commanded to worship God?  Yes.  Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!

However, I think the main problem with this issue is when people try to squeeze all worship for the week into the one or two hours when we get together as a group.  That's not what worship is.  That is part of worship, but it is not all of what worship is.

Worship is giving our lives to God - every aspect of our lives.  Laying our entire life on the altar for him to use and saying - \"Here I am.  Use Me.\"

If we go to the argument that things not spoken about in Scripture are not allowed we have to take hymnbooks, the NT canon, buildings, pews, carpet, air conditioning, heating, pulpits, communion trays, offering plates, bulletins, computers, suits and ties, dresses, hymns written in the 1700's, responsive readings, sound systems, and many more things away from our worship service that we just take for granted.

No.  Silence does not mean we are not supposed to do it.  Even the advocates of that position pick and choose which issues the Bible is silent about that they want to bind on others.

Kevin
He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2003, 07:53:21 PM »

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2003, 09:29:10 AM »
The word acappella did not exist at that time.

Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.

If in the Old Testament, scripture clarifies that one should sing and have instruments, why aren't the verses in the New Testament equally as clear? It's not about liberty to add where God has not spoken. It's about slavery and servanthood to the \"conduct\" of the apostles.

The doctrines of the apostles we are called to follow don't include IM, not historically or Biblically to any level of conclusiveness.

Acappella is a term that was applied to the early church, because the historians that applied the term knew the Christians to be \"without instrumental accompanyment\".
That was their tradition, \"followed\" via the \"doctrines\" and \"examples\" of the apostles, inspired via the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't require assumption because we have the \"example\". That example is the knowledge that the Christians didn't have IM.
 :music:  :)

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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2003, 09:29:10 AM »

Offline winky

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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2003, 10:09:20 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread.[/quote]

I feel safe in saying that no one here has said anything about giving up singing, praying or breaking bread together. I am confident that everyone here advocates all three of those activities.
"This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it."

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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2003, 10:09:20 AM »

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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2003, 10:21:54 AM »
Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you. ;) oops!

:wave: And Kevin if you are suggesting that it was somehow a failure of the apostles to not include IM by pointing out their other shortcomings, I'm afraid that still doesn't negate all those scriptures I listed - (in context.) *wink* ;)

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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2003, 10:21:54 AM »

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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2003, 10:49:47 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.
[/quote]
A God who also approved of the merciless[/us] slaughter of thousands of unbelievers, men who loved their families, women who enjoyed the sunlight and their children with rapture, babies who squirmed and giggled and Jews ran them through.
God's OT approval simply doesn't suffice for what we do today.

Oh, and there's no condemnation going on from me, marc. My points are valid and I'm doing the best I can to present them in a light hearted, loving manner.
Wendy, good question. Actually I only listen to a cappella music myself. There are some fantastic CD's out there without any instruments at all. It's so much more spiritual and timeless. It's not about disaproval to me, there are just so many strong arguments against IM in a NT church. I love my Christian brothers who use instruments. And yes they are certainly Christians to me. The main defense of IM though, is \"hey, the Jews did it, why not me\" or \"the NT doesn't say don't do it, so I can add to the Word if I want to\"
Those aren't scriptural reasons as far as I can tell.

And thanks for your comments on my participation. If I'm ever going to work out why IM is done at all, I've got to discuss it with those that are passionate about adding it to Christianity. Heck, if I was ever going to change I'd have to get all these arguments out and discussed, not holding them in, to do an about face, righ?! *wink*
 :hug:  I appreciate you winky!

And I think Trois made some fantastic points too. I hope all my comments don't push his post off the page.

I only brought up those verses in reference to Kevin's statements on liberty. Yes we have liberty, but it is not without boundaries. Otherwise, why follow the apostle's doctrines at all?

Anyway, this was fun. Perhaps I'll come back to this page someday and mingle with you \"gang-uppers\" again ;)  :wave:
Later!

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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2003, 10:49:47 AM »



Online marc

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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2003, 12:01:48 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I grew up with the condemnation and then one day challenged I found myself struggling to defend what I had been taught.

When I asked others for help in the task this picture of a \"sneaky God\" emerged who would punish us not only for those things clear prohibitted but would allow some dangers to be obscured in the text demanding that I strain and make inferences to see that it is a sin because it is against God, it just isn't spelled out like the other stuff.

After wondering why God would be sneaky and not give us a clearer statement it finally dawned on me. There was a reason God left us this record of his word it was so we would know what he wants and what displeases him. He wasn't being sneaky he just didn't address it because when I sing with joy and love for God it doesn't matter if someone strums a guitar or not and if it did he would have said so.

[/quote] :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :thumbs-up:
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2003, 12:01:48 PM »

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2003, 02:45:32 PM »
Great illustration, kanham!  :thumbup:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. -Deuteronomy 6:4
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Offline Jesus4you

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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2003, 06:55:48 AM »
There is one sister here who  I do give credit to(  Amen for her consistancy???????????????????).  She leaves instruments out of Bible songs in all aspects of life and worship not just the corporate assembly, which is where most of the  binding acappellians seem to confine their acappella  convictions . :alien:


BTW,
I didn't see this one or I might have picked it, because it raises such a ruckess in our brotherhood.
Commanded, now allowed, but inappropriate

Offline charlie

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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2003, 09:29:04 AM »
I'm afraid I didn't explain the poll very well. Let me try again.

Instrumental Music (IM) is found in scripture. That should be very important to people who try to live by scripture. There are some passages that could be interpreted as commands, or as allowances. Also, if they are commands they might be interpreted as binding on us today or not. In this poll, you have the opportunity to state whether you believe the passages mentioning IM were ever intended to be interpreted as commands to be obeyed (I'm not talking about the horns at Jericho, I'm talking about IM in corporate worship of God), or if they were allowed and sanctioned by God, if not commanded. You also have the opportunity to express whether having IM in a church of Christ would be appropriate or inappropriate, in your view. Perhaps I should have added one for \"not inappropriate\" or \"doesn't matter\" to each of the categories of \"commanded\" or \"allowed\".

Notice also that there is no choice to put \"forbidden in scripture\" for obvious reasons. I wish some of you had asked for clarification first.

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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2003, 09:29:04 AM »

Offline charlie

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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2003, 10:37:22 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]your poll results will not be valid because you did not include a 'forbidden or unauthorized' option.  if you ask church of Christ membership specifically to participate it would be better to include what you know will be selected by many in general.
[/quote]
dj,

Actually I thought of that. I based the choices on the assumption that people know that IM is not forbidden anywhere in scripture. Also, you will see that \"not allowed\" is a choice. That would mean the same as \"forbidden\". As to \"unauthorized\" you've got me there. Hopefully we will remember that \"authorized\" means \"commanded or allowed, and appropriate\".

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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2003, 10:37:22 AM »

Offline Jesus4you

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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2003, 11:28:47 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]singing acappella music.

The stumbling of an IM congregation comes when someone tells them to do away with their instruments. It's about holding on to what you have, demanding you're right to have them, and not letting someone else tell you what to do. Those aren't humble, loving reasons for having IM.

If they have a stumbling block it is when they are then angry and hateful at being told what to do (or not to do rather); they can even go so far as being selfish in their desire to keep what they have. That is their stumbling block. The stumbling block is not the lack of instruments itself. It is the means of getting there.[/quote]
Vessel of Honor,

To an extent I agree with you. But I have to think of this scripture also.

1 Corinthians  10:29 \"For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?  If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?\"


  The problem I have and that I think many others here have is that many  in the acapella Church make it a Salvation Issue.  


Blessings,
Lauren

Offline segell

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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2003, 02:07:07 PM »
Charlie - To me it is a non-issue.  I was suggesting it as a category.  

To answer your question, where I worship, we see no Scriptural significance.  However, I realize many do see significance (up to the silly point - in my view - of making it a matter of unity).  What would a non-believer or seeker of God think when such an issue becomes a matter of division?  

Oh, and by the way, even though we have a contemporary worship service with intrumentation, we actually do have times when we sing w'out accompaniment.  Both are wonderful.

Steve
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2003, 09:29:58 AM »
So should we follow that example or not? ???

Offline dgdodd

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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2003, 10:07:45 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 28 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
:clap:  AMEN, AMEN and AMEN
 (oh, is a women allowed to say amen in mixed company?)   ;)

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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2003, 10:13:22 AM »
wow :doh:
I am definitely through discussing this with you marc. Smarty! Yelling at folks and making fun of their legs. What if I'm sitting in a wheelchair!?:)


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems to me that the apostles would be following the teachings   of (what we call) the Old Testament.  Here are just a few:[/quote]
It's certainly an interesting idea that the apostles were following the Old Testament teachings. Though most of the time they would have worshipped together in synagogues without music, or so I've heard.
But then I'm forced to wonder: if the examples and doctrines that were given to the churches I referenced, in that list marc doesn't like, included the practices of the OT - like the ones you noted here - why didn't they follow those examples?
 ???
If they were taught to act like Samuel, Chronicles, Psalms, etc. told them to... well, why didn't they? Not that they were infallible, but surely at least one of those first congregations would have used IM if it was in the examples they were to follow. Do ya \"follow\"? ;)

As for Revelation, it is a book of symbols. May sound like a cop out to some of you, but it's fact. There is a lot about heaven that we don't imitate here, and I personally don't believe it to be a physical realm anyway, making physical instruments hard to believe in there. My opinion, I guess.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
No sarcasm intended, but He also created guns and atom bombs and gas chambers and immodest clothing and satan - and I won't be adding any of these to my repetoire.  :lookaround: