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Offline gospel

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gospel's merged Baptism thread
« on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 01:10:19 »
Here's several examples of instant Salvation

Zacchaeus the tax collector, The Samaritan woman and the thief on the cross

One thing they all had in common, an encounter with Jesus that had nothing to do with water baptism and EACH OF THEM were Saved!

Like I always say...if you really want to understand what you're reading...instead of reading just the plain words on the page...ask the Holy Spirit to show you the difference between what YOU THINK the scripture says and what JESUS ACTUALLY DOES!!

I find that many people who profess a knowledge of theology are very well read yet do not understand very well at all what it is they have read...

.....and that becomes very evident when they cite a scripture to prove a point but the scripture actually says the opposite of what they think it says and to top it off, their personal understanding of it literally contradicts 10 other scriptures at the same time.

Yet like a dog with a bone...they hold onto their understanding for dear life...as if their life literally depends on their current understanding more than it depends on Understanding Aright

Case in point....the necessity of water baptism in salvation as a requirement for salvation rather than a demonstration of it;

So in this thread my goal is to ....

Have us take two steps back and look at Jesus, what He did, what He said in His interaction with people and His personal ministry to them because

....After all, Salvation is personal first and foremost, for God does not save groups of people in an instant but He does instantly save individuals person by person, each according to their need of Him and their personal interaction with Him.... according to their understanding and recognition of who He is.

Case in point immediately following the Sermon on the Mount, the bible says large crowds followed Jesus ...THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT it means they were eyewitnesses to what He did, it means He was demonstrating His teaching in practice it means He was showing them a practical application of some of the things He had been preaching ......and as we see,

His very 1st encounter was with a leper!

Lepers are as outside of the camp as a person could be yet still be alive...in other words they were both ceremonially and legally unclean and anyone who touched a leper was himself considered unclean as well....not a good position to be in the midst of Jewish culture.

What did Jesus do?

Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy.  Matthew 8:3

Also please see Acts 10:15

This is a demonstration that God's Grace is more powerful than the Law and Grace makes clean what the law declares unclean!

 Under Jewish Law...Jesus would have been declared unclean instead Jesus made the unclean....CLEAN

(For another contextual reference please see Acts 10:15)

Take a look at the word "clean" or "cleansed"

It comes from the Greek word katharos Strongs 2513 says of this word it means;

clean, pure, unstained, either literally or ceremonially or spiritually; guiltless, innocent, upright.

We all understand water is the normal natural traditional means of cleaning or cleansing however it

seems in this case that Jesus had the Power to do something greater than water could ever accomplish and ....

He does it INSTANTLY

Notice that Jesus then asks the former leper, the formerly unclean man, who is NOW clean to go to the priests to participate in the customary traditional religious rite AS A TESTIMONY

NOTE: The religious rite has no power does not add to his healing one bit but serves as a DEMONSTRATION OF WHAT HAS ALREADY OCCURRED and quite naturally the leper is more than willing, thankful and grateful to do as Jesus has asked

 
Jesus 2nd interaction and ministry is with a Centurion, a Roman Soldier a non Jew, certainly not water baptized who approaches Jesus as an intercessor, interceding on behalf of his servant.

Sound familiar? It should because that is what Jesus does for each of us and for this reason God loves the intercessor because interceding on behalf of others is in fact the Heart of God toward man...but I digress

Romans, considered by Jews as dogs, had no covenant with God, none whatsoever and were considered unclean both legally and ceremonially so much so that a Jew could not enter the home of a Roman and vice versa ...YET Jesus offered to go to the man's home. ::headscratch::

The Centurion understanding Jewish culture in this regard did not impose upon Jesus to come to his house......  and you know the rest of the story, the result is Jesus making a startling admonition

When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. Matthew 8:10

Wait a minute...did Jesus just say an unbaptized man had more faith than everyone in Israel who was baptized....read it again................ I think He did  ::pondering::

Does that make any sense to anyone?

It does to me, it tells me water baptism is not a requirement for Great Faith ...oh and wait a minute

Did Jesus ask the Centurion if his servant had been baptized in water?

Naaaah I don't think He did and yet.....

And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment. Matthew 8:13

INSTANTLY!!!

The word for healing is the word iáomai / Strongs 2390

[iáomai ("to heal") draws the attention to the Lord, the supernatural Healer, i.e. beyond the physical healing itself and its benefits (as with 2323 /therapeúō).]

Seems the servant got a little bit more than just physical healing

Anyway lets discuss a story that revolves "water" because I'm trying to find an instance where Jesus preached about water baptism, asked someone if they had been water baptized or instructed them to go and get baptized

So Here's a good one

I particularly like this story about the Samaritan woman because in this story Jesus and the woman are actually right on the site of a sacred well....a place where water is present YET...

during the entire exchange Jesus NEVER once discussed water baptism!

Please correct me if I'm wrong though but it seems to me Jesus did discuss water in fact He had a rather intense discussion concerning water but it was ALL ABOUT THE WATER HE WOULD GIVE in fact lets see what He said in His own words

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” John 4:10

IF you knew the gift of God

IF you knew Jesus

You would ask Him and He would give you Living Water

Seem Jesus had an entirely different perspective on water than did the woman.......as a matter of fact Jesus perspective regarding water was quite different  than the perspective viewpoints of a lot of folks posting in this forum

At any rate it seems that not only did the woman become a believer but her entire town became believers as well YET

I can't seem to find any where that Jesus even once discussed water baptism with any of them

Lets see what the scripture actually says about how these people came to believe

39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days.
41And because of his words many more became believers.
42They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”


Time of a pop quiz!

Q. How did the people become believers?
A. because of his words many more became believers.

Lastly we have Bill Gates, I mean Donald Trump err-rr I mean Warren Buffet .....climbing up a tree JUST TO SEE JESUS!

Well actually it was Zacchaeus the tax collector, a RICH MAN

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham
Luke 19:9

WAIT A DOGGONE MINUTE HERE.....did Jesus just pronounce Salvation over an entire household?

Everyone in the family....All of them must've gotten water baptized right?

Is that why?

It must be....I mean it doesn't say they were not already does it?...So maybe we could INFER they were already baptized right?

After all Jesus always made it a point to discuss the importance of water baptism ....didn't he?  ::shrug::
NOT!!!

The answer for why Jesus pronounced Salvation has already been provided right there in the verse

because this man, too, is a son of Abraham

Did you ever wonder what that means and what that has to do with this man and His family being saved?

Were there not a lot of Jews who would be considered a son or daughter of Abraham? ::headscratch::

Good question...

Luke 13:16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

Methinks it may have something to do with some of the things Paul often cited
Galatians 3:16, 29 and Romans 9:7

BUT

That is an entirely different topic and a new thread altogether

This Thread is about INSTANT SALVATION and cleansing - no water required   ::reading::

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 05:26:55 by gospel »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 04:47:09 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 05:05:51 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?

I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:03:24 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:03:24 »

Lively Stone

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:30:52 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:30:52 »

Online johntwayne

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #5 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:34:19 »
Exceptions do not disprove the general rule that the repentant believer needs to be baptized for the remission of his sins.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:37-38)

'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
(Acts 22:16)

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #6 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:38:08 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.
What is sad is that you do not accept the truth of the word but make your own truth.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #7 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 06:38:42 »
Exceptions do not disprove the general rule that the repentant believer needs to be baptized for the remission of his sins.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:37-38)

'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
(Acts 22:16)

::amen!:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::reading:: ::announcment::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 08:07:44 »
In the life of every saint, there is the point in time for which they went from being lost to being saved.  That is called regeneration.  Paul described it as having "been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

It is instantaneous. 

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #8 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 08:07:44 »

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #9 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 08:47:46 »
Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, ONE baptism.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #10 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 08:51:23 »
 ::amen!::
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 08:53:18 by Jimmy »

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #11 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 09:19:13 »
I have asked this on several Baptism threads and no one has answered me...
What would have happen in the OT if the Jews after applying the blood on the door got up to the Red Sea and did not cross it?

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #12 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 09:42:06 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?
I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred
Instant salvation isn't across the board
Acts 26:28-29
Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian." [29] And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.

Acts 10:5-6, 22-24 - Cornelius had to wait.
"Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; [6] he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea." [22] They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." [23] So he invited them in and gave them lodging. And on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. [24] On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends.

Zaccheus was before water baptism in Jesus's name was commanded.

No matter how elegant your argument leading up to your final point (water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred), the final point falls flat because the Bible never says that about water baptism - That's UnBiblical.

« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 10:06:48 by e.r.m. »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #13 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 10:10:18 »
I have asked this on several Baptism threads and no one has answered me...
What would have happen in the OT if the Jews after applying the blood on the door got up to the Red Sea and did not cross it?

They would not have done what was necessary to take advantange of the salvation being offered by God.  God didn't force any of them to be rescued. He provided the means of their escape.  It was up to them to obey.

Offline Down Syndrome Danny

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #14 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 10:22:26 »
gospel, it seems as if you are struggling to convince yourself, more than anyone else, of the confusing message you're trying to express.  you've typed so many words and your conceptual dynamics are all over the place in regards to staying on point.  are you preaching that you don't have to be baptized? or praying that you don't have to be?

Lively Stone

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #15 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 10:32:40 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.
What is sad is that you do not accept the truth of the word but make your own truth.

What is sad is that you cannot see what the truth is.

Offline grace

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #16 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 11:56:25 »
I have asked this on several Baptism threads and no one has answered me...
What would have happen in the OT if the Jews after applying the blood on the door got up to the Red Sea and did not cross it?

They would not have done what was necessary to take advantange of the salvation being offered by God.  God didn't force any of them to be rescued. He provided the means of their escape.  It was up to them to obey.
What was the blood on the door if not salvation?

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #17 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 12:15:56 »
The blood was a sign for the Israelites on the houses they were in. When the Lord sees the blood, he will pass over them. No destructive plague will touch them when the Lord strikes Egypt. It was an obedience to the Lord's instructions as a lasting ordinance. The destroyer would not enter those houses and strike them down. All the firstborn in Egypt were being struck down, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firdtborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #18 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 12:17:26 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.
What is sad is that you do not accept the truth of the word but make your own truth.

What is sad is that you cannot see what the truth is.
Now that is funny!! I only speak that which the Holy Spirit gives me to speak after long prayer on the matter. The Spirit told me you are misguided on this and for me to help you to the truth.

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #19 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 12:41:58 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.
What is sad is that you do not accept the truth of the word but make your own truth.

What is sad is that you cannot see what the truth is.
Now that is funny!! I only speak that which the Holy Spirit gives me to speak after long prayer on the matter. The Spirit told me you are misguided on this and for me to help you to the truth.

Who was it really who said that?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #20 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 12:49:33 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is sad is that you disdain the truth of the word.
What is sad is that you do not accept the truth of the word but make your own truth.

What is sad is that you cannot see what the truth is.
Now that is funny!! I only speak that which the Holy Spirit gives me to speak after long prayer on the matter. The Spirit told me you are misguided on this and for me to help you to the truth.

I know that you have said that in jest.  But in fact whenever I hear anyone who says that they are inspired and hear God or the Holy Spirit speaking to them I usually just run the other way because I know they are nuttier than fruitcakes.  They are too delusional to even carry on a reasonable conversation about the word of God, let alone understand it.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 12:52:57 by Jimmy »

Offline gospel

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The Preparation of John and The Fulfillment of Jesus
« Reply #21 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:27:34 »
The word "abuse" is a contraction that was originally two words

Abnormal Usage

Everything in Creation has been created by God with a set purpose..EVERYTHING!

This means that everything has a normal function or usage however

If something is being used outside of it's intended purpose, it's reason for existing it simply means it is being used abnormally

That is where we get Abuse

People who do not understand the purpose for children abnormally use children and that is where we get child abuse

Same with husbands who do not understand the purpose of a wife...wife abuse

Same with drug addicts who use a drug outside of it's normal or intended purpose...drug abuse

The point is this

When one does not understand the Purpose of a Thing Abuse is Inevitable

This is what has happened to water baptism

Many people do not understand the purpose of it...they're using it to get high so to speak when it's intended purpose is something completely different

There are a few people in this forum who express a sincere lack of understanding John's Purpose and John's ministry and it is okay...I understand how everything they stand for and the very doctrine they cling to.... hinges on a single verse here in there to support their mistaken beliefs.

But the problem is ....in misunderstanding and misapplying the verses, their doctrine is pretty much nothing but a flimsy house of cards

They in being sincere are in fact sincerely wrong, for ascribing forgiveness of sin to John the Baptist is error at best and at worse ....heresy!

It is not a matter that we all know that only God forgives sin and used Baptism to provide forgiveness

NO that is not the issue and trying to solve the dilemma in a slight of hand, off handed feat of word play magic is not the issue

The issue is Salvation through Forgiveness DID NOT and WOULD NOT COME except through Jesus...period

There is no other way and no other Name by which men can be Saved!

Anyone who even suggests otherwise is preaching a false doctrine....and please forgive me but I know of no nicer way of putting it

Basic Christianity 101 tells us that forgiveness is salvation and even John made it clear his function was nothing near the function of the Anointed One

He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ."
John 1:20

This statement by John is VERY important for one single reason.....

Everyone that understood Messianic prophecy UNDERSTOOD that Salvation and Eternal Life would come through The Christ...everyone understood that

Everyone also understood that Forgiveness of Sin = Salvation 
 
If A person's sin is forgiven, the person is in fact Saved

No sin, MEANS your slate is wiped clean, God has nothing against you hence

Forgiveness of Sin  = Righteousness and Eternal Life


This is basic Christian theology and for the life of me

I don't understand how anyone could be confused by this....AT ALL!

It is a childish mistake, an error, an egregious error of ignorance and reflects the immaturity of a person's discipleship and a total lack of biblical comprehension

And for anyone to assert that John provided something that could only come through The Christ  literally shows that The Holy Spirit is not being allowed to lead and guide that person into All Truth.

That combined with the fact that there are some who openly profess a complete rejection of the Holy Spirit's accessibility to them for the purpose of leading and guiding them what we have here is a failure to communicate of the HIGHEST order

The Holy Spirit would never lead any person to ascribe Forgiveness of sin to any person other than Jesus and to anything other than the Blood of Jesus
 
Here's why;

When one asserts that God provided forgiveness of sin through water baptism one is literally saying whoever was baptized by John was Saved even before JESUS began His Ministry or while Jesus was still a child

One is literally saying people were already being Saved because they had already been forgiven because they had already been baptized in water by John and because they had

One is saying those people did not need Jesus!  ::doh::

This couldn't be any further from the Truth  furthermore it's just common sense and .....

anyone professing to be a Christian should AT LEAST know this simple basic fundamental truth

John was not the Savior, He was not Christ, He was not the Messiah so not only did he not provide salvation

GOD DID NOT PROVIDE SALVATION THROUGH EITHER JOHN OR HIS MINISTRY!

You cannot take a fragmented, jig saw understanding of the Gospel and just force pieces to fit where they do not belong

The Biblical stated Purpose of John and his ministry was PREPARATION not SALVATION!
 
John NEVER used the word FORGIVENESS at all for anyone, He NEVER once pronounced Forgiveness for anyone and it was considered blasphemy and heresy EVEN WHEN JESUS DID IT

John NEVER did at all ever....

But if one of you know of a verse where John said otherwise I humbly invite you to share it with us and in fact you are obligated to provide the specific scripture and verse

In the meantime

I am confident you cannot!

Just as I am confident you cannot find one sermon where Jesus preached about water baptism and no I'm talking about the Great Commission

I mean a sermon, a message to the crowds that followed Him everywhere He went
 
SOMETHING HE TAUGHT BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS


But I digress

It is incumbent that those of you who are confused on this matter attempt to understand the difference between Preparation and Fulfillment.

And I sincerely thank you for yet another opportunity to clarify the difference

As you may recall...

 As it was prophesied of John and as it was related to John's Father by The Angel Gabriel

John's God Given, Preordained purpose and ministry was to Prepare the Way for Jesus

A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.
Isaiah 40:3

This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'" Matthew 3:3

76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, Luke 1:76,77

John PREPARED people for FORGIVENESS in two ways

1. Giving them knowledge of salvation through forgiveness


Knowledge of salvation through forgiveness means simply that...for instance even today when the Gospel is preached to Jews and Muslims we are giving them a knowledge of salvation through forgiveness. Before they hear the gospel their knowledge of salvation is limited to works, keeping the Laws, praying 5 times a day facing Mecca, rebuilding the temple to offer sacrifices again, yada, yada, yada, etc, etc,etc

The Gospel of Christ Jesus imparts KNOWLEDGE OF SALVATION THROUGH FORGIVENESS

( see Romans 1:16 )

2. Giving them an Opportunity to publicly admit their sins and their need of salvation

This opportunity today has been provided for in what is commonly referred to as the sinner's prayer and .....if water baptism is to be used in it's intended purpose, it would be as an altar call, giving a person the opportunity to openly confess they are a sinner in need of a Savior, in need of Christ Jesus at which point they would accept Him as Lord and Savior

The original purpose of water baptism is clear and unmistakable

A public profession of one's sin, an admission of guilt and a need of Salvation

This is why Pharisees would not participate....

As the quintessential embodiments of Blamelessness regarding the Law, they could not bring themselves to openly and publicly profess an admission of blame, guilt or sin

This is why John did not want to baptize Jesus

Because by participating in baptism, Jesus is identifying Himself as a sinner in need of forgiveness.... however as we see there is the great presiding matter of FULFILLMENT

But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him. Matthew 3:15


In order for Righteousness to Be Fulfilled Jesus had to IDENTIFY with Sin

The distinction is clear and simple:

The PURPOSE of Jesus Baptism is different that the Purpose of the people

1. The people were baptized to repent and profess a need for forgiveness

2. Jesus was baptized to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS

Today it is the opposite

Whereas Jesus through partaking in a baptism of repentance for forgiveness, Jesus as the Lamb of God who came to take away sin did so by IDENTIFYING with our sin

We who are His people today, through water baptism in return for what He has done in identifying with our sin....We Identify with His Righteousness by identifying with His Death Burial and Resurrection

Did Jesus have to Identify with our sin...YES

As the Lamb of God, God has given Him as The Perfect Sacrifice, He is God's Lamb as prophesied by Abraham in Genesis 22:8 and Genesis 22:14 

Salvation comes from the Lord, He Provides it

Water baptism does not....it only symbolizes it

Should we IDENTIFY with Jesus Righteousness...YES

But please note the order is reversed

Jesus was sinless and identified with our sin

We in being made righteous identify with his death burial and resurrection

We can no more participate in baptism to become Saved than we can participate in Communion to become Saved

The idea of doing either is at once.... absurd and preposterous!

« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:21:53 by gospel »

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #22 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:46:40 »
At this point I'm kinda curious.

Are you preaching you don't need to be baptized or are you praying you don't need to be baptized?

Isn't it always better to err on the side of caution in these matters?


I'm saying we need to be Saved first, baptized spiritually into Christ....then water baptized as a testimony and public demonstration of what has occurred

Ala the leper in Matthew 8
What is sad is that I am afraid you actually believe this false message.

What is truly sad is that you have abused the opportunity of making a response without citing a single scripture to help you provide a mature sensible rebuttal

That is an indication of a shallow adherence to doctrine and fear of seeing the Word for what it actually says

Scared that the foundation of your beliefs will become unhinged, unglued and shaken to it's core

Why delay it...it's inevitable anyway because

When what is perfect comes....you'll be forced to let go .....

either that or hang on to it at your own demise
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:03:06 by gospel »

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #23 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:48:28 »
Exceptions do not disprove the general rule that the repentant believer needs to be baptized for the remission of his sins.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:37-38)

'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
(Acts 22:16)


Unfortunately you know scripture but do not understand it....you're not alone, obviously its quite common among some fellowships


 ::frown::

Offline gospel

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Can A Person Baptize Himself in Water?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:50:03 »

Yep...it's seems to be a silly question but answer it ...yes or no

And oh yea

please provide scripture

Thanks  ::tippinghat::

Offline Jaime

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #25 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:52:00 »
 rofl  Yeah, those darned scriptures!
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:54:59 by Jaime »

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #26 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:53:20 »
Jimmy;
Quote
I know that you have said that in jest.  But in fact whenever I hear anyone who says that they are inspired and hear God or the Holy Spirit speaking to them I usually just run the other way because I know they are nuttier than fruitcakes.  They are too delusional to even carry on a reasonable conversation about the word of God, let alone understand it.


The problem with LS is that she hears Satan too.

See post #21
 
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/sometimes-it-feels-like-this-worlds-gone-crazy/msg1054729103/#msg1054729103

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #27 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:57:02 »
In the life of every saint, there is the point in time for which they went from being lost to being saved.  That is called regeneration.  Paul described it as having "been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

It is instantaneous. 

Yea

 ::announcment:: YES I SEE IT,  I SEE IT VERY CLEARLY IN THAT VERSE

It's all very clear ....He specifically said water

Because Baptism always means water!

Whew!!!

Thanks .....because now I'm just as confused as you are

Thanks a lot I really get it now

Baptism ALWAYS means water.... all the time!

It so simple, I should have been understood that!

So this means

Jesus said

John Baptized with water but I baptize with Water too!

Now I can and come and fellowship with you folks and we can all celebrate being confused together and call it Faith

Or can you please tell me is there some times...any time at all when

Baptism does not mean water?

Help us out here will ya?   ::shrug::
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 13:59:10 by gospel »

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #28 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:01:56 »
rofl  Yeah, those darned scriptures!

Yep those scriptures can be very troubling when we see words that are not there like for instance ....WATER

After all we all know Jesus was talking about water baptism in this verse ....don't we?

Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,

John 4:13

Offline candy

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #29 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:03:28 »
Did  the thief on the cross get baptized with water?  I don't think so, yet he entered the kingdom of God with Jesus that day.  Just saying.

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #30 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:09:46 »
Did  the thief on the cross get baptized with water?  I don't think so, yet he entered the kingdom of God with Jesus that day.  Just saying.

Thanks Candy but as we can see this is how they always react when they have no decent or reasoned  response

The OP cites 3 specific examples of salvation without water.....as well as 1 example of a person outside of covenant and another example of a person legally and ceremonially unclean

All benefited from Jesus without any mention of water baptism

Yet All provided some form of Spiritual Cleansing

One would think a reasoned well thought out response would be forthcoming

But alas  ::shrug::

Offline candy

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Re: The Preparation of John and The Fulfillment of Jesus
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:15:12 »
Manna for you Gospel.  Thank you for your take and for keeping standing up for the truth!!

Offline gospel

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:18:27 »
I have asked this on several Baptism threads and no one has answered me...
What would have happen in the OT if the Jews after applying the blood on the door got up to the Red Sea and did not cross it?

They would not have done what was necessary to take advantange of the salvation being offered by God.  God didn't force any of them to be rescued. He provided the means of their escape.  It was up to them to obey.
I have asked this on several Baptism threads and no one has answered me...
What would have happen in the OT if the Jews after applying the blood on the door got up to the Red Sea and did not cross it?

The question is wrong

The question should be...what would have happened of they had not applied the Blood

The reason the question is wrong is because

The reason for applying the Blood was to Gain Life and Freedom

Why Be Saved if you don't want Life and Freedom

Why Have Life and Freedom if you do not want to walk in it and just prefer to talk about it

What good is an Emancipation Proclamation to a slave that loves his massah and only wants to be a slave

The answer is obvious

If a person does not desire life or freedom ....they will not cross the Red Sea

They won't get on the Ark

And they won't cross over into the Promises of God....but will keep wandering aimlessly in the wilderness

Like several people in this forum


Offline Jaime

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #33 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:21:52 »
Noooooo, Gospel and Candy the thief is always brought up as a non-sequitor because NO command was given to be baptized in any connection with salvation at the time of the cross, so why is the thief even part of the conversation? - a reasoned well thought out and repetitive response to a non-sequitorious remark.

The thief is a great story, but not pertinent to the debate.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:24:57 by Jaime »

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Instant Salvation!
« Reply #34 on: Fri Sep 07, 2012 - 14:23:42 »
Exceptions do not disprove the general rule that the repentant believer needs to be baptized for the remission of his sins.

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:37-38)

'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
(Acts 22:16)


Unfortunately you know scripture but do not understand it....you're not alone, obviously its quite common among some fellowships


 ::frown::

Quite a statement from a person whose theological premise does not even exist in scripture, namely the reformed view of predestination/election.  Your OP is actually based on this false premise. What more would one need to say, that any conclusion would also be false.  Other than your personal opinion you have not given any evidence of either the supposition of predestination, or the notion of some kind of instant salvation.