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Author Topic: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.  (Read 5415 times)

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Offline Hobie

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The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact  is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Purgatory is the belief that presupposes that the dead can be assisted between death and their entry into their final abode. Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in. In ancient Egypt in the worship of the dead, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as today and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the dead.

Now Limbo as a belief seems to presuppose that the dead are held in the Greek myth of the underworld (Hades)  and came to be associated mainly with Limbo of Infants, where the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins.

The problem of picking up these ideas from Greek mythology is because of the Greek words used in translating from the Hebrew text has become confused with Greek myths. Christians picked up these false ideas and beliefs of immortality of the soul, or that a part of, or essence of, or spirit being of an individual being held in the underworld, from Greek mythology. This is at odds and in contrast to the scriptural teaching that the dead go to the grave and know nothing and at the end, a eternal oblivion of the wicked and a eternal life for the saints.

The Greeks had come up with myths that all the dead dwell below the earth in the realm of Hadēs and Persephonē, good and bad alike, and were held in a dark existance. The Greek god Hades was the king of the underworld, a place where souls live after death. The Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the gods, would take the dead soul of a person to the underworld. Hermes would leave the soul on the banks of the River Styx, the river between life and death. Charon, also known as the ferry-man, would take the soul across the river to Hades, if the soul had gold: Upon burial, the family of the dead soul would put coins under the deceased's tongue. Once crossed, the soul would be judged by Aeacus, Rhadamanthus and King Minos. The soul would be sent to Elysium, Tartarus, Asphodel Fields, or the Fields of Punishment. The Greeks picked up many ideas from the Egyptian beliefs of the Book of the Dead and developed them further in how the dead continue to exist, and of reincarnation and even transmigration of souls. These ideas are particularly associated with the pagan Greek Religious Mysteries or Eleusinian mysteries , where initiation in this life into its ‘mysteries’ are the prerequisites for getting to paradise in the next life.

So you see where the Greek words used came loaded with ideas not in line with the original Hebrew, or what Scripture teaches, but since at the time, Greek was used as basically English is used today to communicate between people across the world, it was translated into these Greek words, and we have to go back to what the original Hebrew scribes words they wrote to understand their meaning.

Hades was the Greek work used in some places for the Hebrew term, Sheol or grave as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.
Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a place outside of Jerusalem where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.
Tartaro  occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, and basically means the abyss or oblivion. Also the Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning to perish or "destruction", is sometimes used and basically means the same as the abyss or oblivion.

As you can see, Hades is the Greek word used for the Hebrew word Sheol in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses. In Latin, Hades began to incorrectly be translated as Purgatorium or Purgatory in English, around 1200 A.D., but no modern English translations put Hades as Purgatory.Modern translations, however, no longer translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."

So if one really looks at the true meaning of the words, it becomes clear, Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades are Greek Myths which got mixed in the translation, and the dead are in the grave, knowing nothing and quite dead, literally.





« Last Edit: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 05:34:49 by Hobie »

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Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 08:25:32 »
On another Christian forum there is a huge thread on Purgatory and according to some Catholics there they have stated the following: "Purgatory is a place (or state) where saved Christians upon death go to because there is a 'stain' of sin on their souls and since 'nothing sinful' can enter God's presence these stains must be purged."  In addition to any stains "unremitted sins" must be taken care of as well as sins that were willingly done and not repented of.  I would post the definition the RCC gives but it is as clear as mud with lots of religious sounding words which make little or no sense to the average person.  By the way the words "stain(s) of sin" is not found anywhere in the bible.

While all of this sounds reasonable, IMHO it is a slap in Christ's face because once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.  Once the mony is given the priest will deliver a mass for the poor soul so he can get out quicker.  No one even knows how much money is needed or how many prayers are required to get the poor sinner out.  Supposedly there is "intense pain" caused by "fire" by the one suffering in Purgatory so it is expediant that everything that can possibly be done to shorten this time be done by those left on earth.  The pain is caused by the delay of "the beautific vision" and the "longing to be with Jesus in heaven."  How a soul can feel pain is not told nor is how time is reckoned in Purgatory.  Is it a 24 hour cycle or what? 

The "proof text" for Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:13-15 where if quickly read seems to say that sinners will be subjected to fire.  The truth is the sinner's WORKS are subjected to fire. Those who life's works were built on wood, hay and stubble will see all their works burn up.  Those who built on gold, silver and precious stones will not see their works burned up.  So their "proof text" will not stand the test of fire!  They also quote something for the Apocrapha which as we know is not holy scripture.

The proof texts against Purgatory are as follows:

Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Eph 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

Heb 10:19 & 22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.

Ben
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 08:28:46 by Ben »

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 08:25:32 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:24:14 »
This statement by Hobie is completely wrong.
"Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in"


The Catholic belief is:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)


The scriptural argument for Purgatory is, very briefly:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is  holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)

2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
 3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)


6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.

Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary)

Many Protestants call this Glorification.
“Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups” (Wikipedia)

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:24:14 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:31:17 »
There may be similar concepts to purgatory in paganism but the Catholic understanding is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture as I showed briefly above. The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.

“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.

Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."

Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."


Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:31:17 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:32:47 »
Limbo is not, and never has been, a doctrine of the Catholic Church

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 10:32:47 »



Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:36:09 »
This statement by Hobie is completely wrong.
"Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in"


The Catholic belief is:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)


The scriptural argument for Purgatory is, very briefly:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is  holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)

2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
 3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)


6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.

Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary)

Many Protestants call this Glorification.
“Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups” (Wikipedia)
If they are the same, then they are not scriptural. When you die you go to the grave, the next moment you will awake to is the Second Coming of Christ as He raises the dead at the resurrection like Lazarus, and take the resurrected saints and the living ones to heaven.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:36:09 »

Offline Hoodwinkked

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:44:37 »
This statement by Hobie is completely wrong.
"Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in"


The Catholic belief is:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)


The scriptural argument for Purgatory is, very briefly:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is  holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)

2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
 3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)
 
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)


6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.

Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary)

Many Protestants call this Glorification.
“Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups” (Wikipedia)
If they are the same, then they are not scriptural. When you die you go to the grave, the next moment you will awake to is the Second Coming of Christ as He raises the dead at the resurrection like Lazarus, and take the resurrected saints and the living ones to heaven.

Ecclesiastes, Chapter 3, 21:    Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:50:04 »
On another Christian forum there is a huge thread on Purgatory and according to some Catholics there they have stated the following: "Purgatory is a place (or state) where saved Christians upon death go to because there is a 'stain' of sin on their souls and since 'nothing sinful' can enter God's presence these stains must be purged."  In addition to any stains "unremitted sins" must be taken care of as well as sins that were willingly done and not repented of.  I would post the definition the RCC gives but it is as clear as mud with lots of religious sounding words which make little or no sense to the average person.  By the way the words "stain(s) of sin" is not found anywhere in the bible.

While all of this sounds reasonable, IMHO it is a slap in Christ's face because once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.  Once the mony is given the priest will deliver a mass for the poor soul so he can get out quicker.  No one even knows how much money is needed or how many prayers are required to get the poor sinner out.  Supposedly there is "intense pain" caused by "fire" by the one suffering in Purgatory so it is expediant that everything that can possibly be done to shorten this time be done by those left on earth.  The pain is caused by the delay of "the beautific vision" and the "longing to be with Jesus in heaven."  How a soul can feel pain is not told nor is how time is reckoned in Purgatory.  Is it a 24 hour cycle or what? 

The "proof text" for Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:13-15 where if quickly read seems to say that sinners will be subjected to fire.  The truth is the sinner's WORKS are subjected to fire. Those who life's works were built on wood, hay and stubble will see all their works burn up.  Those who built on gold, silver and precious stones will not see their works burned up.  So their "proof text" will not stand the test of fire!  They also quote something for the Apocrapha which as we know is not holy scripture.

The proof texts against Purgatory are as follows:

Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Eph 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

Heb 10:19 & 22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.

Ben
Well here is a good explanation I came across on this issue..

"The doctrine of ‘everlasting punishment in hell’ is founded upon a combination of mistranslations and misinterpretations of the following Hebrew and Greek words.
 
Mistranslations of the Hebrew word sheol, and the Greek words hades, tartarus and gehenna, to mean hell.

Mistranslations of the Hebrew word owlam, and the Greek words aion and aionios, to mean forever or everlasting when relating to God’s judgement of unbelievers and fallen angels.

When we examine how often the word ‘hell’ occurs in various versions of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate onwards, we are shocked to see just how widely Bible translators differ in their opinion and understanding of the word ‘hell’.   
 
The truth of the matter is that there is not one single word in the original Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible that means hell.... These words are: one Hebrew word sheol, and three Greek words hades, tartarus and gehenna. These words do not mean hell. Let us now clearly explain the true biblical meanings of these words.

Sheol occurs 65 times in the original Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament, and it means the grave (the place of the dead) or the pit, as correctly translated in almost all modern versions of the Bible since the KJV.
 
Hades occurs 11 times in the original Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament and it is the direct equivalent of the Hebrew word sheol; thus it also means the grave or the pit. This is how most modern versions of the Bible translate hades.
 
 Some Bible dictionaries give an added meaning to hades of ‘the underworld’ or ‘the place or state of departed spirits’. But, this meaning has been influenced by pagan Greek mythology and has no biblical basis.
 
Tartarus occurs only once in the original Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament and it means a prison of spiritual darkness, which is where all fallen angels are confined until their final judgement in the Lake of Fire, as explained in Chapter 13.

Gehenna occurs 12 times in the original Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament, and each and every time that gehenna occurs, it has been mistranslated to mean hell in versions of the Bible that support the doctrine of hell.

 It is Jesus Christ Himself who uses the Greek word gehenna for as many as 11 out of the 12 times that gehenna occurs in the Bible, for example in Matthew 18:9.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire.

 When Jesus Christ uses the term gehenna fire, He does not mean everlasting tormenting hell fire. By the term gehenna fire, Jesus means God’s age lasting refining fire on the Day of Judgement.

Gehenna takes its name from a valley located in Jerusalem called the valley of Hinnom. During Jesus’s time on earth, this valley was used as the city dump. A fire was constantly kept alight there to burn up and consume all of the city’s unwanted rubbish.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1378497/pg1

Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:51:34 »
Limbo is not, and never has been, a doctrine of the Catholic Church
So I hear, to the great shock and surprise of all the Catholics who have held this since they were born...

At least the Catholic church has seen the light on this, but can anyone tell me when the doctrine was set aside.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 27, 2013 - 18:51:34 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 05:02:34 »
Limbo is not, and never has been, a doctrine of the Catholic Church
So I hear, to the great shock and surprise of all the Catholics who have held this since they were born...

At least the Catholic church has seen the light on this, but can anyone tell me when the doctrine was set aside.

It has not been set aside because as I said it never has been a doctrine.

It was an opinion by some theologians to try and explain what might be the fate of children who die unbaptised.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 05:10:28 »
On another Christian forum there is a huge thread on Purgatory and according to some Catholics there they have stated the following: "Purgatory is a place (or state) where saved Christians upon death go to because there is a 'stain' of sin on their souls and since 'nothing sinful' can enter God's presence these stains must be purged."  In addition to any stains "unremitted sins" must be taken care of as well as sins that were willingly done and not repented of.  I would post the definition the RCC gives but it is as clear as mud with lots of religious sounding words which make little or no sense to the average person.  By the way the words "stain(s) of sin" is not found anywhere in the bible.


It's imagery, not to be taken literally just as the following is imagery:
"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." (Is 1:18)


While all of this sounds reasonable, IMHO it is a slap in Christ's face because once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.  Once the mony is given the priest will deliver a mass for the poor soul so he can get out quicker.  No one even knows how much money is needed or how many prayers are required to get the poor sinner out.  Supposedly there is "intense pain" caused by "fire" by the one suffering in Purgatory so it is expediant that everything that can possibly be done to shorten this time be done by those left on earth.  The pain is caused by the delay of "the beautific vision" and the "longing to be with Jesus in heaven."  How a soul can feel pain is not told nor is how time is reckoned in Purgatory.  Is it a 24 hour cycle or what? 

The "proof text" for Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:13-15 where if quickly read seems to say that sinners will be subjected to fire.  The truth is the sinner's WORKS are subjected to fire. Those who life's works were built on wood, hay and stubble will see all their works burn up.  Those who built on gold, silver and precious stones will not see their works burned up.  So their "proof text" will not stand the test of fire!  They also quote something for the Apocrapha which as we know is not holy scripture.

The proof texts against Purgatory are as follows:

Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Eph 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

Heb 10:19 & 22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.

Ben

A couple of questions:

1. Is everyone who has ever lived, or who will ever live, saved and will live in heaven? Yes or No

2. Are you perfect as God is perfect and holy as God is holy? Yes or No

 

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 05:21:36 »
If they are the same, then they are not scriptural. When you die you go to the grave, the next moment you will awake to is the Second Coming of Christ as He raises the dead at the resurrection like Lazarus, and take the resurrected saints and the living ones to heaven.

Now you are changing the baisis of your argument.

The OP was claiming that Purgatory was based on paganism but as I showed the Catholic concept of Purgatory is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture, something you made no attempt to refute..


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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 11:36:21 »
Limbo is not, and never has been, a doctrine of the Catholic Church
So I hear, to the great shock and surprise of all the Catholics who have held this since they were born...

At least the Catholic church has seen the light on this, but can anyone tell me when the doctrine was set aside.

It has not been set aside because as I said it never has been a doctrine.

It was an opinion by some theologians to try and explain what might be the fate of children who die unbaptised.
Would have been nice if they had told the members that rather than let them believe Limbo existed for all these centuries.......

Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 11:38:16 »
If they are the same, then they are not scriptural. When you die you go to the grave, the next moment you will awake to is the Second Coming of Christ as He raises the dead at the resurrection like Lazarus, and take the resurrected saints and the living ones to heaven.

Now you are changing the baisis of your argument.

The OP was claiming that Purgatory was based on paganism but as I showed the Catholic concept of Purgatory is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture, something you made no attempt to refute..


It is based on ancient pagan mystery religions, not from Judaism or scripture. So you are not correct on that..I will get my notes.....

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 11:44:15 »
If they are the same, then they are not scriptural. When you die you go to the grave, the next moment you will awake to is the Second Coming of Christ as He raises the dead at the resurrection like Lazarus, and take the resurrected saints and the living ones to heaven.

Now you are changing the baisis of your argument.

The OP was claiming that Purgatory was based on paganism but as I showed the Catholic concept of Purgatory is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture, something you made no attempt to refute..


It is based on ancient pagan mystery religions, not from Judaism or scripture. So you are not correct on that..I will get my notes.....

I showed you it was based on Judaism and scripture and you haven't even attempted to refute what I said.

Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jul 28, 2013 - 18:57:03 »
On another Christian forum there is a huge thread on Purgatory and according to some Catholics there they have stated the following: "Purgatory is a place (or state) where saved Christians upon death go to because there is a 'stain' of sin on their souls and since 'nothing sinful' can enter God's presence these stains must be purged."  In addition to any stains "unremitted sins" must be taken care of as well as sins that were willingly done and not repented of.  I would post the definition the RCC gives but it is as clear as mud with lots of religious sounding words which make little or no sense to the average person.  By the way the words "stain(s) of sin" is not found anywhere in the bible.


It's imagery, not to be taken literally just as the following is imagery:
"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." (Is 1:18)


While all of this sounds reasonable, IMHO it is a slap in Christ's face because once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.  Once the mony is given the priest will deliver a mass for the poor soul so he can get out quicker.  No one even knows how much money is needed or how many prayers are required to get the poor sinner out.  Supposedly there is "intense pain" caused by "fire" by the one suffering in Purgatory so it is expediant that everything that can possibly be done to shorten this time be done by those left on earth.  The pain is caused by the delay of "the beautific vision" and the "longing to be with Jesus in heaven."  How a soul can feel pain is not told nor is how time is reckoned in Purgatory.  Is it a 24 hour cycle or what? 

The "proof text" for Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:13-15 where if quickly read seems to say that sinners will be subjected to fire.  The truth is the sinner's WORKS are subjected to fire. Those who life's works were built on wood, hay and stubble will see all their works burn up.  Those who built on gold, silver and precious stones will not see their works burned up.  So their "proof text" will not stand the test of fire!  They also quote something for the Apocrapha which as we know is not holy scripture.

The proof texts against Purgatory are as follows:

Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rom 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Eph 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

Heb 10:19 & 22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.

Ben

A couple of questions:

1. Is everyone who has ever lived, or who will ever live, saved and will live in heaven? Yes or No

2. Are you perfect as God is perfect and holy as God is holy? Yes or No

 

Answers to question 1. No.  According to Jesus "few" will make it to heaven.

Question # 2.  Lets see what scripture says about God's children like myself. Eph 1:3-12  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." 

So Jesus Christ has blessed me with every spiritual blessing (except for time in Purgatory.)  I am "holy and blameless" (but not holy enough or blameless enough to bypass Purgatory.)  I have been adopted by Him so I am now His child (but not adopted enough for Him to prevent me from going to Purgatory.)  I have been redeemed (but not redeemed from Purgatory.)  I have "forgiveness of my trespasses" (that is except those that I must pay for in Purgatory.)  I am rich in His grace (but His grace is not rich enough for me to bypass Purgatory.)  I have obtained an "inheritance" (that is once I complete my time in Purgatory which may be millions of years as no one knows how long one must stay or even if and when one gets out.)

Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."  Nope, the RCC states that after death comes Purgatory where one may spend a million years in pain and suffering before he gets out and THEN judgment.

Col 1:22 "[Christ] has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him"  Well not really, we will only be holy, blameless and above reproach AFTER we get out of Purgatory!  The RCC says so so it MUST be true.  They wouldn't lie to you just ask them.  They are trustworthy. Don't believe me?  Ask the thousands of altar boys molested by Catholic priests. Between the years 1950 and 2007 the RCC paid out $3,000,000,000 in sexual abuse cases. 

No wonder the RCC needs money so badly.  Money is paid to get people out of Purgatory, a demonic invention foisted upon unsuspecting millions of Catholics.  Indulgences are bought with money so people can be "guaranteed entrance into heaven."  What a blasphemous idea.  Forgiveness can now be bought for a few thousand dollars in about five Roman Catholic churches in New York City.  Man's traditions, one of the three legs of the Catholic stool.

I could cite many more passages that prove that God's will will not fail, that He will lead His children safely through this world into the next with any "help" from some demonic idea called Purgatory.

Ben

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 04:52:41 »
 
On another Christian forum there is a huge thread on Purgatory and according to some Catholics there they have stated the following: "Purgatory is a place (or state) where saved Christians upon death go to because there is a 'stain' of sin on their souls and since 'nothing sinful' can enter God's presence these stains must be purged."  In addition to any stains "unremitted sins" must be taken care of as well as sins that were willingly done and not repented of.  I would post the definition the RCC gives but it is as clear as mud with lots of religious sounding words which make little or no sense to the average person.  By the way the words "stain(s) of sin" is not found anywhere in the bible.

 
It's imagery, not to be taken literally just as the following is imagery:
"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool." (Is 1:18)
 
 
While all of this sounds reasonable, IMHO it is a slap in Christ's face because once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.  Once the mony is given the priest will deliver a mass for the poor soul so he can get out quicker.  No one even knows how much money is needed or how many prayers are required to get the poor sinner out.  Supposedly there is "intense pain" caused by "fire" by the one suffering in Purgatory so it is expediant that everything that can possibly be done to shorten this time be done by those left on earth.  The pain is caused by the delay of "the beautific vision" and the "longing to be with Jesus in heaven."  How a soul can feel pain is not told nor is how time is reckoned in Purgatory.  Is it a 24 hour cycle or what? 
 
The "proof text" for Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:13-15 where if quickly read seems to say that sinners will be subjected to fire.  The truth is the sinner's WORKS are subjected to fire. Those who life's works were built on wood, hay and stubble will see all their works burn up.  Those who built on gold, silver and precious stones will not see their works burned up.  So their "proof text" will not stand the test of fire!  They also quote something for the Apocrapha which as we know is not holy scripture.
 
The proof texts against Purgatory are as follows:
 
Heb 9:27 "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."
 
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
 
Rom 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
 
Eph 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."
 
Heb 10:19 & 22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus...let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."
 
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
 
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
 
Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.
 
Ben

A couple of questions:
 
1. Is everyone who has ever lived, or who will ever live, saved and will live in heaven? Yes or No
 
2. Are you perfect as God is perfect and holy as God is holy? Yes or No
 
 

Answers to question 1. No.  According to Jesus "few" will make it to heaven.

If few make it to heaven then it means either:
 
Jesus atonement was insufficient to save everyone.
 
Or
 
Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen. 
 
You say
“...once you remove all the religious sounding words you are left with "Christ's blood shed at Calvary did not atone for all of the effects of Adam's fall so mankind must take up the slack and help Him out by praying and by giving money.”
And
“Personally I don't want to be the one to inform God that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and God's gift of His righteousness that He imputed to us was not sufficient so I felt that He needed some "help" by adding some of my "righteousness" to His.”
 
You cannot have it both ways. If Christ’s atonement was sufficient to save everyone, but not everyone is saved then there is something else that must happen. What that is we can discuss but you then have to admit that both of your statements are false.
 
 
 
Question # 2.  Lets see what scripture says about God's children like myself. Eph 1:3-12  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory." 
 
So Jesus Christ has blessed me with every spiritual blessing (except for time in Purgatory.)  I am "holy and blameless" (but not holy enough or blameless enough to bypass Purgatory.)  I have been adopted by Him so I am now His child (but not adopted enough for Him to prevent me from going to Purgatory.)  I have been redeemed (but not redeemed from Purgatory.)  I have "forgiveness of my trespasses" (that is except those that I must pay for in Purgatory.)  I am rich in His grace (but His grace is not rich enough for me to bypass Purgatory.)  I have obtained an "inheritance" (that is once I complete my time in Purgatory which may be millions of years as no one knows how long one must stay or even if and when one gets out.)
 
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."  Nope, the RCC states that after death comes Purgatory where one may spend a million years in pain and suffering before he gets out and THEN judgment.
 
Col 1:22 "[Christ] has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him"  Well not really, we will only be holy, blameless and above reproach AFTER we get out of Purgatory!  The RCC says so so it MUST be true.  They wouldn't lie to you just ask them.  They are trustworthy. Don't believe me?  Ask the thousands of altar boys molested by Catholic priests. Between the years 1950 and 2007 the RCC paid out $3,000,000,000 in sexual abuse cases. 
 
No wonder the RCC needs money so badly.  Money is paid to get people out of Purgatory, a demonic invention foisted upon unsuspecting millions of Catholics.  Indulgences are bought with money so people can be "guaranteed entrance into heaven."  What a blasphemous idea.  Forgiveness can now be bought for a few thousand dollars in about five Roman Catholic churches in New York City.  Man's traditions, one of the three legs of the Catholic stool.
 
I could cite many more passages that prove that God's will will not fail, that He will lead His children safely through this world into the next with any "help" from some demonic idea called Purgatory.
 
Ben

I’ll leave the irrational rant aside. It would seem that you do not wish to discuss this rationally. I’m going on holiday in a few days & I don’t have time to waste on rants like this
 
However I will just point out a few of your misunderstandings about Purgatory
Quote from:
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."  Nope, the RCC states that after death comes Purgatory where one may spend a million years in pain and suffering before he gets out and THEN judgment.

That is incorrect as this quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church shows
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately,-or immediate and everlasting damnation.
 
 
Quote from:
I complete my time in Purgatory which may be millions of years as no one knows how long one must stay or even if and when one gets out.

Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.
 
Quote from:
Indulgences are bought with money so people can be "guaranteed entrance into heaven." 

Again this is not true.
Firstly, Indulgences are not sold and never had been (despite some local abuses relating to alms giving in the 16th century)


Secondly, anyone undergoing Purgatory is already guaranteed entrance into heaven – see the quote from the Catechism above.
 
Quote from:
Forgiveness can now be bought for a few thousand dollars in about five Roman Catholic churches in New York City
Again this is not true. I do not know the particular schools you are referring to but forgiveness is not for sale.
 
In common with many Protestants you have been badly misinformed of what Purgatory is about.
 

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 05:41:49 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 05:49:18 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:06:21 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

Leaving the question if purgatory exists or not to another thread, the explanation given here is absurd.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:16:30 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.

Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:19:10 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:21:00 »
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

We haven't departed from scripture. As I have pointed out twice already the concept is rooted in Judaism and scripture. So far you have failed to even address those points.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:29:48 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

Leaving the question if purgatory exists or not to another thread, the explanation given here is absurd.

Just calling an explanation absurd does not make it so.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:31:49 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?
Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:32:59 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

Leaving the question if purgatory exists or not to another thread, the explanation given here is absurd.

Just calling an explanation absurd does not make it so.

Absolutely correct. Just calling an explanation an explanation doesn't make it so either.

Anyway, I am not saying that purgatory does not exist. What I am saying is that your explanation of it is absurd.
And actually the absurdity of your explanation is not very hard to argue.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 07:47:52 by AVZ »

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 08:23:44 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 08:27:33 »
Purgatory is not a place where one spends time. It is a process of purification. And there is no “time” in Purgatory. Time is a dimension of this world. As the above quote from the Catechism shows we have already been judged and guaranteed entrance into heaven. There is therefore no question of an “if”.

Rather peculiar notion.
If there is no time in purgatory then it is in an eternal state and you cant exit it.
And if you could, then the moment of departure is the exact same moment of entering.
It seems that when you depart from scripture, it takes you into a confusion of 'tradition' which all seem to have Greek mythology or some other pagan origin or 'mystery' as its source.

Leaving the question if purgatory exists or not to another thread, the explanation given here is absurd.

Just calling an explanation absurd does not make it so.

Absolutely correct. Just calling an explanation an explanation doesn't make it so either.

It is an explanantion. Whether it is a good one or a poor one can be argued but what I gave was an explanantion.

Anyway, I am not saying that purgatory does not exist. What I am saying is that your explanation of it is absurd.
And actually the absurdity of your explanation is not very hard to argue.

And as I said (and you agreed) - just saying my explanation is absurd does not make it so. Why repeat your error?



Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 08:44:39 »
Quote from above "Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen."  Typical Catholic lies.  There is nothing else that needs to be done.  Jesus said "it is finished."  What He says He means.  EVERYTHING that needs to be done for salvation, justification, and holy living Jesus accomplished on the cross.  Christ's atonement was sufficient for all but it was not effecatious for all. If it was, all would be saved but as we know all are not nor will they ever be saved.  The reason all will not be saved is God has chosen those who He will adopt into His family, so there are those He has decided not to adopt.  We do not choose God, rather God chooses us.  In fact "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."  Salvation has always been and it will always be "according to the purpose of His will."  John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is by God's will ONLY that we receive Christ.  We did not nor can we even choose to follow God.  Romans 3:10-11 makes it perfectly clear "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."  NO ONE SEEKS GOD!  Absolutely no one. Why?  Because God chooses us.  John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  John 15:19 "...I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Simply put Purgatory says, "sorry Jesus your work at Calvary was lacking in the fullness needed to get God's adopted children safely into heaven so we will help you out you poor thing.  Too bad your blood just wasn't strong enough to cleanse the stains of our sin.  Better luck next time."

The Kabbalah is also "rooted in Judaism" so I guess I should I hold a seance and speak to the dead and see if they are in Purgatory, hell or heaven right?

Ben

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:19:27 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.

Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:28:06 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?

Yes, exactly. Heaven is in another universe.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:43:11 »
Quote from above "Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen."  Typical Catholic lies.  There is nothing else that needs to be done.  Jesus said "it is finished."  What He says He means.  EVERYTHING that needs to be done for salvation, justification, and holy living Jesus accomplished on the cross.  Christ's atonement was sufficient for all but it was not effecatious for all. If it was, all would be saved but as we know all are not nor will they ever be saved.  The reason all will not be saved is God has chosen those who He will adopt into His family, so there are those He has decided not to adopt.  We do not choose God, rather God chooses us.  In fact "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."  Salvation has always been and it will always be "according to the purpose of His will."  John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is by God's will ONLY that we receive Christ.  We did not nor can we even choose to follow God.  Romans 3:10-11 makes it perfectly clear "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."  NO ONE SEEKS GOD!  Absolutely no one. Why?  Because God chooses us.  John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  John 15:19 "...I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Simply put Purgatory says, "sorry Jesus your work at Calvary was lacking in the fullness needed to get God's adopted children safely into heaven so we will help you out you poor thing.  Too bad your blood just wasn't strong enough to cleanse the stains of our sin.  Better luck next time."

The Kabbalah is also "rooted in Judaism" so I guess I should I hold a seance and speak to the dead and see if they are in Purgatory, hell or heaven right?

Ben

Do you think being abusive improves the quality of your arguments?

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:45:06 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.

Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?

What I'm saying is that space and time are attributes of our universe. To speak of literal space and time in regard to purgatory does not make sense.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:53:59 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?

Yes, exactly. Heaven is in another universe.

With angels sitting on fluffy clouds

Offline AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 09:59:52 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....


Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?


Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?


I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.


Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?


What I'm saying is that space and time are attributes of our universe. To speak of literal space and time in regard to purgatory does not make sense.



In order to make clear that I am not the only one disputing your claim of "no time", lets hear from a Catholic first.
With regards to purgatory being a place, please note the number of times and context where "not necessarily" and "as far as we know" (expression of doubt) is being used.

http://www.catholic.com/video/is-purgatory-a-physical-place

I will revert with my response later

Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 10:35:54 »
Quote from above "Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen."  Typical Catholic lies.  There is nothing else that needs to be done.  Jesus said "it is finished."  What He says He means.  EVERYTHING that needs to be done for salvation, justification, and holy living Jesus accomplished on the cross.  Christ's atonement was sufficient for all but it was not effecatious for all. If it was, all would be saved but as we know all are not nor will they ever be saved.  The reason all will not be saved is God has chosen those who He will adopt into His family, so there are those He has decided not to adopt.  We do not choose God, rather God chooses us.  In fact "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."  Salvation has always been and it will always be "according to the purpose of His will."  John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is by God's will ONLY that we receive Christ.  We did not nor can we even choose to follow God.  Romans 3:10-11 makes it perfectly clear "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."  NO ONE SEEKS GOD!  Absolutely no one. Why?  Because God chooses us.  John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  John 15:19 "...I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Simply put Purgatory says, "sorry Jesus your work at Calvary was lacking in the fullness needed to get God's adopted children safely into heaven so we will help you out you poor thing.  Too bad your blood just wasn't strong enough to cleanse the stains of our sin.  Better luck next time."

The Kabbalah is also "rooted in Judaism" so I guess I should I hold a seance and speak to the dead and see if they are in Purgatory, hell or heaven right?

Ben

Do you think being abusive improves the quality of your arguments?

Was Jesus "abusive" to the scribes and Pharisees when He called them a "brood of vipers", "blind fools", "blind guides" and "hypocrites (no less than 13 times)?"  What He said in Mark 7:6-8  ties in perfectly with what the RCC teaches.  "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the traditions of men."  Jesus spoke of traditions three times in the gospels, and three times He condemned them, yet you guys continue to teach them as if they were as good or even better than God's eternal word and you wonder why I am upset? Sheesh.

From A Catholic Dictionary (The Catholic Encyclopedic Dictionary) Donald Attwater ed, 2nd ed., rev (New York: McMillan, 1949), pp 413,414  "Purgatory is a place and state in which souls suffer for a while and are purged after death, before they go to heaven, on account of their sins. Venial sins, which have never in life been remitted by an act of repentance or love or by good works, and grave sins, the guilt of which is eternal punishment has indeed been removed by God after an act of temporal punsihment due to His justice on account of the imperfection of that repentance, must be purged away after death by pain of intense longing for God, whose blissful vision is delayed and also as is commonly taught by some pain of sense, inflicted probably by material fire. It is of faith that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and sacrifices of the faithful on earth and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.  Though there is no ecclesiastical decision in the matter, it is common custom to pray to the souls in purgatory that they will intercede for us with God." 

So we learn that purgatory is indeed a "place and state" and it is common custom to pray TO the souls in purgatory!  I do wish they would make up their minds. Is it a "place and state" or not. Are we to pray FOR them or pray TO them.  Is there "material fire" or not?  Pain?  If so how can a spirit feel pain?  Purgatory means that man is responsible for the completition of his own salvation through suffering in purgatory, even though Isa 53:11 says (of Christ) "He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities."

Okay, now it's your turn to say that this was written in 1949 and the churches view of purgatory has changed...oops my bad, the never wrong RCC can never change her mind about unbiblical traditions they have invented, even though I'm sure they would love to dump a whole bunch of them, so scratch that last.

Ben
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 10:56:01 by Ben »

 

     
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