Author Topic: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.  (Read 8449 times)

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Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 12:09:39 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....


Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?


Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?


I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.


Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?


What I'm saying is that space and time are attributes of our universe. To speak of literal space and time in regard to purgatory does not make sense.



In order to make clear that I am not the only one disputing your claim of "no time", lets hear from a Catholic first.
With regards to purgatory being a place, please note the number of times and context where "not necessarily" and "as far as we know" (expression of doubt) is being used.

http://www.catholic.com/video/is-purgatory-a-physical-place

I will revert with my response later


I've tried to transcribe some of his comments

Space
In terms of space the Church is unaware of any  place where the afterlife occurs…. They [our souls] exist in God’s presence but that’s something of a metaphor. It’s not like there’s a physical space where they go to exist as far as we know…Purgatory is more of a condition…….but it’s not necessarily occurring in a physical space.

Time
On the question of time…. there is a kind of sequence that happens to us in the afterlife…..that means at least there is something analogous to time… at least something corresponding to time…that will allow these different events to happen in sequence...

I don't see that he is saying anything particularly different to what I said.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 12:09:39 »

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 12:43:42 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.

Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?

What I'm saying is that space and time are attributes of our universe. To speak of literal space and time in regard to purgatory does not make sense.


Well, Ben is already taking you down the theological path, so let me take you down the path of physics.

For something to exist, it must be. For something to exist and be casual, it must be and have conscience.
Something can only be if it is somewhere. Something that is, cannot be nowhere. If something is nowhere, then it simply does not exist.
God exists, so God is somewhere. God can be everywhere, but He cannot be nowhere.
God is casual, He caused creation, so God is conscious.

Ideas, objects and places also exist, and they too are somewhere. An idea can be in my mind, where exactly in my mind I do not know, but I know its in there.
An idea cannot be nowhere. If it is nowhere, then it does not exist.
Ideas however are not casual, they cannot do anything by themselves. Hence ideas, objects and places exist, but are not conscious.

Now take Purgatory
Purgatory is either an object, or an idea or a conscious being.
In any case, for it to exist it must be somewhere. If purgatory is nowhere, it doesn't exist.
We know that both objects and conscious beings have a place. You can say that object is on the top shelve, or I am at home.
If Purgatory is a state (as the RCC claims) it therefore must be an idea, or an emotion.

But if Purgatory is an idea (or state) then it cannot be casual. If Purgatory is not casual, then it cannot do what it is supposed to do: purging!
The only thing that is casual is a conscious being, and we know that Purgatory is not a conscious being.

The alternative is that Purgatory therefore must be an idea and the action of purging is performed by a 3rd party.
That 3rd party has to be a casual being, for example God.
Now if God is somewhere then when He activates purging, Purgatory must also be somewhere.

Since the objective of Purgatory is to purge, it needs something to purge.
So to speak, we need to put something in purgatory so the purging can start.
Of course these somethings are souls.

Now idea's cannot contain anything else but other ideas. For example, you cannot put an object into an idea.
So if Purgatory is indeed an idea (or state) you cannot put souls in it. You can only put more idea's in it.

How about the opposite?
Can you put Puratory into a soul. I suppose you can, but then Purgatory would have a place...inside the soul.
You can also say that Purgatory is an idea, and put that into a soul. But then you still need the 3rd party to activate purging and that will bring the whole process back to a place.


A few years ago, after centuries of declaring that Purgatory was a place, the idea arose that it was not.
As of that moment both Purgatory and purging were to be understood as the act of purging: the process of purging.
So now we are back to Purgatory being in idea, containing souls...which as we have seen is not possible.

Anyway, the final word came from Pope John II...Purgatory is a process, not a place, inside the soul.
But that leaves the question of who starts the process? Is the soul purging itself? And who puts purgatory inside the soul?
In other words, who is the 3rd party?
Well, the 3rd party is God. And we know that God is in a place, hence purgatory must be in a place, hence purgatory is a place.
If purgatory is not in a place, then it would be nowhere...and as we know, things that are nowhere cannot exist.


The only way for Purgatory to exist is:
- it has to be a place
- it has to contain souls
- the process of purging must be executed in it
- God must activate the process
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:00:29 by AVZ »

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 12:53:24 »
I've tried to transcribe some of his comments

Space
In terms of space the Church is unaware of any  place where the afterlife occurs…. They [our souls] exist in God’s presence but that’s something of a metaphor. It’s not like there’s a physical space where they go to exist as far as we know…Purgatory is more of a condition…….but it’s not necessarily occurring in a physical space.

Time
On the question of time…. there is a kind of sequence that happens to us in the afterlife…..that means at least there is something analogous to time… at least something corresponding to time…that will allow these different events to happen in sequence...

I don't see that he is saying anything particularly different to what I said.

Never mind, let me do it for you:

In terms of space the Church is unaware of any  place where the afterlife occurs -> expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt
They [our souls] exist in God’s presence but that’s something of a metaphor -> its either a metaphor or not, what does "something like a metaphor mean"? Expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt
It’s not like there’s a physical space where they go to exist as far as we know -> you either know or you don't. If you don't know, then it could also be a physical space.
Purgatory is more of a condition…….but it’s not necessarily occurring in a physical space. -> expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt

On the question of time…. there is a kind of sequence that happens to us in the afterlife…..that means at least there is something analogous to time… at least something corresponding to time…that will allow these different events to happen in sequence... ->
Shall we just call this mysterious sequence of events "time"? Or should we wait for a better word for it?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck...what animal do you think it is?


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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 12:53:24 »

Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:13:16 »
Quote from above "Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen."  Typical Catholic lies.  There is nothing else that needs to be done.  Jesus said "it is finished."  What He says He means.  EVERYTHING that needs to be done for salvation, justification, and holy living Jesus accomplished on the cross.  Christ's atonement was sufficient for all but it was not effecatious for all. If it was, all would be saved but as we know all are not nor will they ever be saved.  The reason all will not be saved is God has chosen those who He will adopt into His family, so there are those He has decided not to adopt.  We do not choose God, rather God chooses us.  In fact "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."  Salvation has always been and it will always be "according to the purpose of His will."  John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is by God's will ONLY that we receive Christ.  We did not nor can we even choose to follow God.  Romans 3:10-11 makes it perfectly clear "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."  NO ONE SEEKS GOD!  Absolutely no one. Why?  Because God chooses us.  John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  John 15:19 "...I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Simply put Purgatory says, "sorry Jesus your work at Calvary was lacking in the fullness needed to get God's adopted children safely into heaven so we will help you out you poor thing.  Too bad your blood just wasn't strong enough to cleanse the stains of our sin.  Better luck next time."

The Kabbalah is also "rooted in Judaism" so I guess I should I hold a seance and speak to the dead and see if they are in Purgatory, hell or heaven right?

Ben

Do you think being abusive improves the quality of your arguments?
The thing is the Jews did go off into mystery religions, and pagan baal worship, and the Kabbalah, and especially after the death of Christ they split to those who believed Christ was the Messiah and became Christians, and those who refused to accept it and drifted into pagan traditions and confusion, which is where they are today. Go talk to any Jew today and they wont admit Christ was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the coming Messiah but they really arent looking for him either, they are truly lost spiritually and in beliefs.

So the void has been filled in with the false belief and tradition of the Kabbalah which has become a substitute for the truth, similiar as to what happened when the Christian church let in Greek myths and traditions and we see the resulting confusion and unscriptural doctrines that came in.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:17:49 by Hobie »

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:13:16 »
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Offline Catholica

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:23:42 »
I've tried to transcribe some of his comments

Space
In terms of space the Church is unaware of any  place where the afterlife occurs…. They [our souls] exist in God’s presence but that’s something of a metaphor. It’s not like there’s a physical space where they go to exist as far as we know…Purgatory is more of a condition…….but it’s not necessarily occurring in a physical space.

Time
On the question of time…. there is a kind of sequence that happens to us in the afterlife…..that means at least there is something analogous to time… at least something corresponding to time…that will allow these different events to happen in sequence...

I don't see that he is saying anything particularly different to what I said.

Never mind, let me do it for you:

In terms of space the Church is unaware of any  place where the afterlife occurs -> expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt

Ignorance about the actual location, or whether there is a physical location, not ignorance of the existence of purgatory itself, which may not be describable as a location at all.

They [our souls] exist in God’s presence but that’s something of a metaphor -> its either a metaphor or not, what does "something like a metaphor mean"? Expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt

Something of a metaphor, meaning that we believe that our souls exist in this state with certainty, but the means of describing it accurately exceed our ability to communicate it with precision.

It’s not like there’s a physical space where they go to exist as far as we know -> you either know or you don't. If you don't know, then it could also be a physical space.

That is true.  We limit what we teach to what has been revealed.  Unlike this "heaven is in another universe" speculation.

Purgatory is more of a condition…….but it’s not necessarily occurring in a physical space. -> expresses ignorance, uncertainty, doubt

Right, doubt about whether it occurs in a physical place, not doubt about its existence.  The church rightly limits it's teachings to that which is known; beyond that people are free to speculate and stay within the faith.

On the question of time…. there is a kind of sequence that happens to us in the afterlife…..that means at least there is something analogous to time… at least something corresponding to time…that will allow these different events to happen in sequence... ->
Shall we just call this mysterious sequence of events "time"? Or should we wait for a better word for it?

Calling the sequence "time" may not be accurate either.  Thus it would be as wrong as saying that it is without time.  The church rightly says neither.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck...what animal do you think it is?

Thinking naturally, it is a duck.  But the supernatural is not necessarily describable using our natural experiences or language for that matter.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:28:29 by Catholica »

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:23:42 »



Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:35:10 »
Time and space are dimensions of our physical world. I do not see how we can use such terms literally outside of this world.

The Church does not use such terms in the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....

Question 1: If purgatory is outside our world (the preferred term would be universe), then where do you suggest it is? In another universe?

Purgatory is a process not a place. If it is not a place how can there be a where?

These things are beyond our knowledge.

You could ask where is heaven? Is it in another universe?



Question 2: As the Church gives somewhat a description of the event, does she also describe that purgatory is without time and outside of this universe?

I have given all that the Catechism says in that regard.

Ok, given the fact that the Church does not say anything about purgatory having time or not...do you then still hold it as a personal opinion that there is no time in purgatory?

What I'm saying is that space and time are attributes of our universe. To speak of literal space and time in regard to purgatory does not make sense.


Well, Ben is already taking you down the theological path,

Ben is not taking me anywhere

so let me take you down the path of physics.

I think you mean metaphysics

For something to exist, it must be.
Stop right there

“Some thing”. Purgatory is not a thing.

Which makes the rest of your analysis questionable


For something to exist and be casual, it must be and have conscience.
Something can only be if it is somewhere. Something that is, cannot be nowhere. If something is nowhere, then it simply does not exist.
God exists, so God is somewhere. God can be everywhere, but He cannot be nowhere.
God is casual, He caused creation, so God is conscious.

Ideas, objects and places also exist, and they too are somewhere. An idea can be in my mind, where exactly in my mind I do not know, but I know its in there.
An idea cannot be nowhere. If it is nowhere, then it does not exist.
Ideas however are not casual, they cannot do anything by themselves. Hence ideas, objects and places exist, but are not conscious.

Now take Purgatory
Purgatory is either an object, or an idea or a conscious being.
In any case, for it to exist it must be somewhere. If purgatory is nowhere, it doesn't exist.
We know that both objects and conscious beings have a place. You can say that object is on the top shelve, or I am at home.
If Purgatory is a state (as the RCC claims) it therefore must be an idea, or an emotion.

But if Purgatory is an idea (or state) then it cannot be casual. If Purgatory is not casual, then it cannot do what it is supposed to do: purging!
The only thing that is casual is a conscious being, and we know that Purgatory is not a conscious being.

The alternative is that Purgatory therefore must be an idea and the action of purging is performed by a 3rd party.
That 3rd party has to be a casual being, for example God.
Now if God is somewhere then when He activates purging, Purgatory must also be somewhere.

Since the objective of Purgatory is to purge, it needs something to purge.
So to speak, we need to put something in purgatory so the purging can start.
Of course these somethings are souls.

Now idea's cannot contain anything else but other ideas. For example, you cannot put an object into an idea.
So if Purgatory is indeed an idea (or state) you cannot put souls in it. You can only put more idea's in it.

How about the opposite?
Can you put Puratory into a soul. I suppose you can, but then Purgatory would have a place...inside the soul.
You can also say that Purgatory is an idea, and put that into a soul. But then you still need the 3rd party to activate purging and that will bring the whole process back to a place.


A few years ago, after centuries of declaring that Purgatory was a place, the idea arose that it was not.
As of that moment both Purgatory and purging were to be understood as the act of purging: the process of purging.
So now we are back to Purgatory being in idea, containing souls...which as we have seen is not possible.

Anyway, the final word came from Pope John II...Purgatory is a process, not a place, inside the soul.
But that leaves the question of who starts the process? Is the soul purging itself? And who puts purgatory inside the soul?
In other words, who is the 3rd party?
Well, the 3rd party is God. And we know that God is in a place, hence purgatory must be in a place, hence purgatory is a place.
If purgatory is not in a place, then it would be nowhere...and as we know, things that are nowhere cannot exist.


The only way for Purgatory to exist is:
- it has to be a place
- it has to contain souls
- the process of purging must be executed in it
- God must activate the process

Purgatory is a not an idea, nor an object, nor a place.

Purgatory (purgation, purification) is an action that occurs on the soul.

A soul does not have mass or dimensions so can it be said to exist in a place?

If we do accept for a moment that a soul exists in a place and Purgatory is an action on the soul, then its existence is only temporary for that particular soul whilst it is being purged. Moreover whilst it occurs in a place (where the soul is, if such can be said) it is not a place in itself.

Just because something happens in a place does not make it a place in itself.

If I file my fingernails the action happens on my fingernails. My fingernails are in a place but the filing happens in the place where my fingernails are. The filing in itself is not a place.

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:35:10 »

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #41 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 13:49:53 »
Quote from above "Jesus atonement was sufficient for everyone to be saved but there is something else that needs to happen."  Typical Catholic lies.  There is nothing else that needs to be done.  Jesus said "it is finished."  What He says He means.  EVERYTHING that needs to be done for salvation, justification, and holy living Jesus accomplished on the cross.  Christ's atonement was sufficient for all but it was not effecatious for all. If it was, all would be saved but as we know all are not nor will they ever be saved.  The reason all will not be saved is God has chosen those who He will adopt into His family, so there are those He has decided not to adopt.  We do not choose God, rather God chooses us.  In fact "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..."  Salvation has always been and it will always be "according to the purpose of His will."  John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is by God's will ONLY that we receive Christ.  We did not nor can we even choose to follow God.  Romans 3:10-11 makes it perfectly clear "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God."  NO ONE SEEKS GOD!  Absolutely no one. Why?  Because God chooses us.  John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.  John 15:19 "...I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Simply put Purgatory says, "sorry Jesus your work at Calvary was lacking in the fullness needed to get God's adopted children safely into heaven so we will help you out you poor thing.  Too bad your blood just wasn't strong enough to cleanse the stains of our sin.  Better luck next time."

The Kabbalah is also "rooted in Judaism" so I guess I should I hold a seance and speak to the dead and see if they are in Purgatory, hell or heaven right?

Ben

Do you think being abusive improves the quality of your arguments?
The thing is the Jews did go off into mystery religions, and pagan baal worship, and the Kabbalah, and especially after the death of Christ they split to those who believed Christ was the Messiah and became Christians, and those who refused to accept it and drifted into pagan traditions and confusion, which is where they are today. Go talk to any Jew today and they wont admit Christ was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the coming Messiah but they really arent looking for him either, they are truly lost spiritually and in beliefs.

So the void has been filled in with the false belief and tradition of the Kabbalah which has become a substitute for the truth, similiar as to what happened when the Christian church let in Greek myths and traditions and we see the resulting confusion and unscriptural doctrines that came in.

Amen!

Jews made and continue to commit the same mistakes.
 
I am glad you brought about Christians, unity was always meant to be from the beginning.

Hence: No longer will you be called Abram; your name
will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of
many nations.

Can make a case this was meant for the Gentiles.



Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #42 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 18:56:48 »
I wish you Catholics would make up your mind.  The official Church statement said that purgatory is a "place and state" but Winsome says it is an "action" and Catholica says there is "no doubt about its existence" but does not say what it is.  Yet another jam the RCC has gotten herself into by attempting to tamper with God's word.

Ben

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #43 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 22:24:20 »

Stop right there
“Some thing”. Purgatory is not a thing.
Which makes the rest of your analysis questionable


Purgatory is a not an idea, nor an object, nor a place.
Purgatory (purgation, purification) is an action that occurs on the soul.
A soul does not have mass or dimensions so can it be said to exist in a place?

If we do accept for a moment that a soul exists in a place and Purgatory is an action on the soul, then its existence is only temporary for that particular soul whilst it is being purged. Moreover whilst it occurs in a place (where the soul is, if such can be said) it is not a place in itself.

Just because something happens in a place does not make it a place in itself.

If I file my fingernails the action happens on my fingernails. My fingernails are in a place but the filing happens in the place where my fingernails are. The filing in itself is not a place.

Quite often when people are confronted with their absurdities, in order to remain their biased point of view, they will resort to throw up new absurdities.
So is your response to my post.

There is a word for something that is not a thing, it's called "no thing" or simply "nothing".
The only thing that is no thing, is nothing itself.

We say: God made everything. What we mean to say is: God made all, everything that exists in this universe was created by God.
So, for Purgatory to exist, it must be part of this "everything"...or rather said "every thing".
Which means that Purgatory is a thing.

I am a thing, you are a thing, a bird is a thing, a house is a thing, an atom is a thing, air is a thing, ideas are things, actions are things...they all are part of the common denominator called "everything".
Now there are two kinds of things:
- objects
- non-objects

The difference between these two is that objects contain matter and space, whilst non-objects do not contain matter and space.
So, I am an object, you are an object, a bird is an object. An idea is not an object, an action is not an object. However, bot objects and non-objects are still members of the group called "things".

There are also two kinds of objects.
- conscious objects
- unconscious objects

Conscious objects are objects that can make something happen by choice. Unconscious objects cannot.
This is a little more complicated because we could say that earthquakes cause houses to collapse, but we know that earthquakes are not conscious. Earthquakes do not make this happen by choice. An earthquake does not "choose" to one day make something collapse, and the other day not.
The fact that a house collapses in an earthquake is more the result of the construction of the house, than the construction of the earthquake.
A cow however is a conscious being, it can choose to graze in the left corner of a field, or in the right corner.
The cow therefore can cause more dung to be present in the left part of the field than in the right part.

There are two types of conscious beings
- aware
- unaware

An aware being (or aware conscious object) knows that if it grazes in the left corner of the field, it will create more dung there.
Well, a cow is not an aware consciousness, it will simply go where the grass is greener.


Having said all this, lets have a look at your claims:

1. Stop right there. “Some thing”. Purgatory is not a thing.

As noted, this is an absurdity. Everything is a thing, the only question is what type of thing Purgatory is. Is it conscious and aware?
If Purgatory was not a thing, it would be "no thing" or simply "nothing".
And the only thing that really is nothing, is nothing itself.
If Purgatory exists, it must be a thing.

2. Purgatory is a not an idea, nor an object, nor a place. Purgatory (purgation, purification) is an action that occurs on the soul.

If an action occurs, it needs a system in which it occurs. Actions do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects.
You are trying to create grammatical discourse by saying that Purgatory is the action of purification itself.
However I am willing to leave that aside for now.
Even if Purgatory is the action itself, it still needs a conscious object by which it can occur.
That fact that Purgatory happens on the soul, for now, is irrelevant because the soul does not evoke Purgatory, nor causes it to happen.
In other words, the soul is not the conscious object that causes Purgatory. The cause therefore has to come from outside Purgatory.
This is your second absurdity.

3. A soul does not have mass or dimensions so can it be said to exist in a place?

Absolutely it must. The fact that the soul exist, makes it so that it has to be somewhere.
If it was nowhere, it would not exist.
We may not know exactly where the soul is, but we do know that it is somewhere. In daily life my soul is bound to my body.
So the place where my soul is would be my body. My soul is not your soul, and my soul cannot go out for a walk by itself.
My soul is strictly bound to a place, me! Where I go, my soul goes.
This changes after I die. My soul is separated from my body. It now can go somewhere.
There is one place however where my soul cannot go, and that is nowhere. If my soul would to go nowhere, it would cease to be.
If my soul would cease to be, then obviously there is nothing to be purified.
The only thing we do not know is where exactly does our soul go after death? We cannot pinpoint the exact location.
Fine, no issue there also.

For simplicity of reason, lets say that there are two universes.
a) The universe of God
b) Our universe

If the soul is somewhere, then obviously the soul must be in either of the two universes above.
So whatever happens, after death the soul is bound to a new place. Either God's universe, or ours.
As you can imagine, you can now argue that there are many more universes we don't know about and the soul goes there, but that would still mean that the soul goes to that specific universe.
And as we know, universes are places.

You could also argue that our soul will be everywhere and cross-universal.
But that would still limit the soul from being beyond any or all of those universes, hence the soul is bound to a place.

Now if the soul is in a place, then so must Purgatory be.
If purification of the soul happens in our universe, than that is where Purgatory is.
And if Purgatory is somewhere, it has to exist.

Mass or dimensions are irrelevant to being. Idea's exist, yet they have no mass or dimensions.
This is your third absurdity

4. If we do accept for a moment that a soul exists in a place and Purgatory is an action on the soul, then its existence is only temporary for that particular soul whilst it is being purged. Moreover whilst it occurs in a place (where the soul is, if such can be said) it is not a place in itself.

Lets imagine my car breaks down and I cannot drive it to the repair shop. What I will do is call the repair shop and ask them to come to my house to fix my car.
The repair man comes, fixes my car and leaves.
In this analogy, you could say that indeed the repair of my car is a temporary action. You are correct there.
Where you are incorrect is to say that when the repairman leaves, he ceases to exist.
Obviously when the repairman leaves, he simply goes to another place. And at that other place he may in fact repair another car.
So the repair must happen at a place, it must happen somewhere. I could hardly tell the repairman to repair my car nowhere.
Hence, whilst purging can happen anywhere, it still must happen somewhere. We simply do not know where that location is exactly.
This is your fourth absurdity

5. Just because something happens in a place does not make it a place in itself.

The only reason you have for saying this is because in your mind binding purgatory to a location, it must be a fixed location.
In fact all you do in this particular instance is provide support for making it a place in itself.
If the soul is somewhere and purgatory has to so to somewhere to start purging, then obviously the soul is the place where purgatory needs to go to.
Which follows that if purging happens in the soul and has no fixed place, then the soul is a place in itself in correlation to purging.
This is your fifth absurdity

6. "If I file my fingernails the action happens on my fingernails. My fingernails are in a place but the filing happens in the place where my fingernails are. The filing in itself is not a place."

By itself this statement is correct. As support for your statements above, its a completely misconstrued analogy.

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 22:29:21 by AVZ »

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #43 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 22:24:20 »

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #44 on: Mon Jul 29, 2013 - 23:53:31 »
Catholica,

I am not going to address each line separately, just let me repeat them to keep the thread clear of clutter:

Quote
- Ignorance about the actual location, or whether there is a physical location, not ignorance of the existence of purgatory itself, which may not be describable as a location at all.
- Something of a metaphor, meaning that we believe that our souls exist in this state with certainty, but the means of describing it accurately exceed our ability to communicate it with precision.
- We limit what we teach to what has been revealed.  Unlike this "heaven is in another universe" speculation.
- Right, doubt about whether it occurs in a physical place, not doubt about its existence.  The church rightly limits it's teachings to that which is known; beyond that people are free to speculate and stay within the faith.
- Calling the sequence "time" may not be accurate either.  Thus it would be as wrong as saying that it is without time.  The church rightly says neither.
- Thinking naturally, it is a duck.  But the supernatural is not necessarily describable using our natural experiences or language for that matter.

The big line of your response is:
The Church knows things from two sources, science and revelation. Science is disputable, revelation is not.
The Church only teaches what she knows, she does not teach what she does not know or what is disputable.

See, I am not interested in half-truths and neither is the Church. That there is no time in purgatory has not been revealed to the Church, and cannot be proven scientifically.
Hence, stating that "there is no time in purgatory" is not a fact. It is an assumption. It is also a very bad assumption.

Time is an ambiguous concept. It does not necessarily need to be expressed in minutes or seconds.
In fact, time is far more a mathematical expression than anything else. In our universe it is nothing more than the measurement of position against the location of the sun.
But then again, time is also a general understanding of something that came before, or comes after something else.
And finally time can be expressed in distance.

The word "time" is a grammatical expression given to the CONCEPT. We could as well call it "stone" or "water" or "loop" or "centimeter".

Whenever you refer to time, you are referring to the concept of time...the way time is perceived.
Here on earth one day is 24 hours. On other planets one day can last 48 hours, or 12.
These are mere mathematical variations of one and the same concept...time!

Now even if there was no sun.
If you go from A to B, and you do that as twice the speed as I do, then obviously you do it in half the time as I.
So when we throw out our perception of time, we still have time itself...the concept.


Now why does the RCC not simply admit that there is time in purgatory?
Quite explainable.
We know that there are 2 universes. The one we live in, and the one God came from. There may be many more universes, but that is speculation. We are certain that there are at least 2 universes.

We also know that Gods universe is beyond time, God always was and always is, so time does not exist in Gods universe.
It only exists in relation to our, time bound, universe.

If the RCC would say "there is time in purgatory" then obviously the lit is blown off purgatory.
See, according to the RCC purgatory is a state BETWEEN or within the two universes.
However, purgatory can never be in Gods universe because His universe is clean. The whole purpose of purgatory is to purify the soul so it can enter Gods universe.
Then the only alternative is that purgatory happens in our universe!
Unfortunately, our universe contains time so purgatory cannot be in our universe either.

The RCC is very well aware of this, hence she teaches that it is up to anyone to believe what he/she wants.
The RCC is ignorant of the fact of time, or she plays ignorant, because any statement made will mean that purgatory is either in Gods universe or in our universe.
Of course there is a way out of this and that is to fancy a 3rd universe, with or without time, where purgatory then is.
Problematic here would then be the question if there is time in that universe or not.
If not, then it was and is eternal, so theoretically it would be possible for another God to be in that universe etc. etc.

So what then does the RCC do to make purgatory a conceivable concept?
Well, she does what every other person does when confronted with absurdities...she posts other absurdities and
Not only physical absurdities, but grammatical ones as well.

Although the RCC knows for certain that purgatory exists, she claims not to know the way to exactly describe it.
Well that is quite illogic. If you know something that you can also describe it. You may not remember the exact words to describe it, but nothing that can be known is indescribable unless it is inconceivable.
If something is inconceivable, it can be known to a certain extend, but it cannot be fully known.
So factually the more correct claim of the RCC would be: We know (by revelation) that purgatory exists, but we are ignorant of her properties.

Another way to throw us off track is to make up new meanings for words.
Saying that "metaphor" used in a specific context does not mean "metaphor" but something else inexplicable.
Or saying that "time" doesn't really mean "time" but something else inexplicable.
Or saying that the soul is in purgatory, but not really in purgatory, more like purgatory is in the soul but also that not really.

You get the point. The whole thing just becomes vague and inexplicable.

And more confusion is added by simply saying that the whole thing is supernatural. As if that then means the end of the story.
But we know that only God is supernatural, so if indeed purgatory s supernatural...then it must be with God.
As we have seen that too is denied by the RCC.

Anyway, the whole question if purgatory exists by trying to answer the question if there is time in it, renders itself impossible.
And that is exactly the reason why there is no official stance by the Church on this matter.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #45 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 05:13:38 »


Stop right there
“Some thing”. Purgatory is not a thing.
Which makes the rest of your analysis questionable


Purgatory is a not an idea, nor an object, nor a place.
Purgatory (purgation, purification) is an action that occurs on the soul.
A soul does not have mass or dimensions so can it be said to exist in a place?

If we do accept for a moment that a soul exists in a place and Purgatory is an action on the soul, then its existence is only temporary for that particular soul whilst it is being purged. Moreover whilst it occurs in a place (where the soul is, if such can be said) it is not a place in itself.

Just because something happens in a place does not make it a place in itself.

If I file my fingernails the action happens on my fingernails. My fingernails are in a place but the filing happens in the place where my fingernails are. The filing in itself is not a place.

Quite often when people are confronted with their absurdities, in order to remain their biased point of view, they will resort to throw up new absurdities.
So is your response to my post.

There is a word for something that is not a thing, it's called "no thing" or simply "nothing".
The only thing that is no thing, is nothing itself.

We say: God made everything. What we mean to say is: God made all, everything that exists in this universe was created by God.
So, for Purgatory to exist, it must be part of this "everything"...or rather said "every thing".
Which means that Purgatory is a thing.

I am a thing, you are a thing, a bird is a thing, a house is a thing, an atom is a thing, air is a thing, ideas are things, actions are things...they all are part of the common denominator called "everything".
Now there are two kinds of things:
- objects
- non-objects

The difference between these two is that objects contain matter and space, whilst non-objects do not contain matter and space.
So, I am an object, you are an object, a bird is an object. An idea is not an object, an action is not an object. However, bot objects and non-objects are still members of the group called "things".

There are also two kinds of objects.
- conscious objects
- unconscious objects

Conscious objects are objects that can make something happen by choice. Unconscious objects cannot.
This is a little more complicated because we could say that earthquakes cause houses to collapse, but we know that earthquakes are not conscious. Earthquakes do not make this happen by choice. An earthquake does not "choose" to one day make something collapse, and the other day not.
The fact that a house collapses in an earthquake is more the result of the construction of the house, than the construction of the earthquake.
A cow however is a conscious being, it can choose to graze in the left corner of a field, or in the right corner.
The cow therefore can cause more dung to be present in the left part of the field than in the right part.

There are two types of conscious beings
- aware
- unaware

An aware being (or aware conscious object) knows that if it grazes in the left corner of the field, it will create more dung there.
Well, a cow is not an aware consciousness, it will simply go where the grass is greener.


Having said all this, lets have a look at your claims:

1. Stop right there. “Some thing”. Purgatory is not a thing.

As noted, this is an absurdity. Everything is a thing, the only question is what type of thing Purgatory is. Is it conscious and aware?
If Purgatory was not a thing, it would be "no thing" or simply "nothing".
And the only thing that really is nothing, is nothing itself.
If Purgatory exists, it must be a thing.

2. Purgatory is a not an idea, nor an object, nor a place. Purgatory (purgation, purification) is an action that occurs on the soul.

If an action occurs, it needs a system in which it occurs. Actions do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects.
You are trying to create grammatical discourse by saying that Purgatory is the action of purification itself.
However I am willing to leave that aside for now.
Even if Purgatory is the action itself, it still needs a conscious object by which it can occur.
That fact that Purgatory happens on the soul, for now, is irrelevant because the soul does not evoke Purgatory, nor causes it to happen.
In other words, the soul is not the conscious object that causes Purgatory. The cause therefore has to come from outside Purgatory.
This is your second absurdity.

3. A soul does not have mass or dimensions so can it be said to exist in a place?

Absolutely it must. The fact that the soul exist, makes it so that it has to be somewhere.
If it was nowhere, it would not exist.
We may not know exactly where the soul is, but we do know that it is somewhere. In daily life my soul is bound to my body.
So the place where my soul is would be my body. My soul is not your soul, and my soul cannot go out for a walk by itself.
My soul is strictly bound to a place, me! Where I go, my soul goes.
This changes after I die. My soul is separated from my body. It now can go somewhere.
There is one place however where my soul cannot go, and that is nowhere. If my soul would to go nowhere, it would cease to be.
If my soul would cease to be, then obviously there is nothing to be purified.
The only thing we do not know is where exactly does our soul go after death? We cannot pinpoint the exact location.
Fine, no issue there also.

For simplicity of reason, lets say that there are two universes.
a) The universe of God
b) Our universe

If the soul is somewhere, then obviously the soul must be in either of the two universes above.
So whatever happens, after death the soul is bound to a new place. Either God's universe, or ours.
As you can imagine, you can now argue that there are many more universes we don't know about and the soul goes there, but that would still mean that the soul goes to that specific universe.
And as we know, universes are places.

You could also argue that our soul will be everywhere and cross-universal.
But that would still limit the soul from being beyond any or all of those universes, hence the soul is bound to a place.

Now if the soul is in a place, then so must Purgatory be.
If purification of the soul happens in our universe, than that is where Purgatory is.
And if Purgatory is somewhere, it has to exist.

Mass or dimensions are irrelevant to being. Idea's exist, yet they have no mass or dimensions.
This is your third absurdity

4. If we do accept for a moment that a soul exists in a place and Purgatory is an action on the soul, then its existence is only temporary for that particular soul whilst it is being purged. Moreover whilst it occurs in a place (where the soul is, if such can be said) it is not a place in itself.

Lets imagine my car breaks down and I cannot drive it to the repair shop. What I will do is call the repair shop and ask them to come to my house to fix my car.
The repair man comes, fixes my car and leaves.
In this analogy, you could say that indeed the repair of my car is a temporary action. You are correct there.
Where you are incorrect is to say that when the repairman leaves, he ceases to exist.
Obviously when the repairman leaves, he simply goes to another place. And at that other place he may in fact repair another car.
So the repair must happen at a place, it must happen somewhere. I could hardly tell the repairman to repair my car nowhere.
Hence, whilst purging can happen anywhere, it still must happen somewhere. We simply do not know where that location is exactly.
This is your fourth absurdity

5. Just because something happens in a place does not make it a place in itself.

The only reason you have for saying this is because in your mind binding purgatory to a location, it must be a fixed location.
In fact all you do in this particular instance is provide support for making it a place in itself.
If the soul is somewhere and purgatory has to so to somewhere to start purging, then obviously the soul is the place where purgatory needs to go to.
Which follows that if purging happens in the soul and has no fixed place, then the soul is a place in itself in correlation to purging.
This is your fifth absurdity

6. "If I file my fingernails the action happens on my fingernails. My fingernails are in a place but the filing happens in the place where my fingernails are. The filing in itself is not a place."

By itself this statement is correct. As support for your statements above, its a completely misconstrued analogy.



An action is not a thing. A "thing" is a noun. An action is a verb. An action is not an object.

You are correct to say that “If an action occurs, it needs a system in which it occurs”.

However you are incorrect to say “Actions do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects.” If the wind blows a leaf off a tree which is the conscious object, the leaf or the wind?

Your conclusion to your analogy of the man fixing the car is incorrect. If the action is fixing then it is not the man that ceases to exist when the car is fixed but the action of fixing ceases to exist. Moreover whilst the action of fixing takes place where the car is the action of fixing is not a place itself.

As for your dismissal of my analogy, to say it is a misconstrued analogy just means you have no answer and that I am right.

I will give you another analogy:

If I talk to someone I converse with them. We can make a noun of that action and call it a conversation. “Where” does the conversation take place? Well, we could say it is where we are. The “where” of the conversation is the “where” of the objects (people) conversing. Suppose one person is in England and the other in America and the conversation takes place over the telephone. Where does the conversation take place? In England? In America? In mid-atlantic? Does the question of “where” the conversation is make sense?

What I’m trying to say is that it’s not as cut and dried as you try to make out. Add to that we are talking about matters that are not part of this physical world and our words and concepts are inadequate.

God, heaven, purgatory and many more such are mysteries which we can only know from what God has revealed and can only be spoken of very inadequately because our language and concepts are not designed for it. We want to pin these concepts down but we cannot. God is totally other to us and we can only speak of God in metaphors.



I think you are fixated on this question of when and where. But the key issue is why, and it seems to have been lost sight of.

Can we return that that and leave the trivia of metaphysics aside, particularly as I said earlier I'm going away in a few days?

When Moses, the person who had the most intimate relationship with God (apart from Jesus of course) asked to see God’s glory, God permitted him but not to see his face. God said "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live." (Ex 33:20)

Evem Moses was not holy enough for that. But in heaven we will see God face to face (1Cor 13:12). For that we must be holy as God is holy (1Pet 1:15-16), perfect as God is perfect (Mt 5:48). If we were not so holy and perfect we would not live.

We are told to strive for this level of holiness and perfection in this life:
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord(Heb 12;14)

“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. (2Cor 7:1)

“But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.” (2Pet 3:13-14)

“Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1Jn 3:2-3)

If we do not come this level of holiness and perfection is this life then this ‘final purification of the elect’ (CCC 1031) that we call Purgatory is God’s mercy to make us fit to see him face to face.

« Last Edit: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 05:22:52 by winsome »

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #46 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 07:14:58 »
An action is not a thing. A "thing" is a noun. An action is a verb. An action is not an object.

You are correct to say that “If an action occurs, it needs a system in which it occurs”.

However you are incorrect to say “Actions do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects.” If the wind blows a leaf off a tree which is the conscious object, the leaf or the wind?

Your conclusion to your analogy of the man fixing the car is incorrect. If the action is fixing then it is not the man that ceases to exist when the car is fixed but the action of fixing ceases to exist. Moreover whilst the action of fixing takes place where the car is the action of fixing is not a place itself.

As for your dismissal of my analogy, to say it is a misconstrued analogy just means you have no answer and that I am right.

I will give you another analogy:

If I talk to someone I converse with them. We can make a noun of that action and call it a conversation. “Where” does the conversation take place? Well, we could say it is where we are. The “where” of the conversation is the “where” of the objects (people) conversing. Suppose one person is in England and the other in America and the conversation takes place over the telephone. Where does the conversation take place? In England? In America? In mid-atlantic? Does the question of “where” the conversation is make sense?

What I’m trying to say is that it’s not as cut and dried as you try to make out. Add to that we are talking about matters that are not part of this physical world and our words and concepts are inadequate.

God, heaven, purgatory and many more such are mysteries which we can only know from what God has revealed and can only be spoken of very inadequately because our language and concepts are not designed for it. We want to pin these concepts down but we cannot. God is totally other to us and we can only speak of God in metaphors.

Hi Winsome,

I have removed the 2nd section of your post. The "why" question you post is of course valid, but it addresses the theological aspect of purgatory.
We are not arguing theology here, we are talking physics.

In physics a thing is a different notion than in grammatical object.
In physics, everything that exists is something...or some thing. Now you have many different kind of things.
For example an idea is a thing, because ideas exist, so it must be some thing (something).
Actions too, because they exist, are things. They are just from a different category than ideas or objects.
Physics does not concern itself about nouns or verbs. Only grammar does.
And we are not talking grammar, we are talking physics.

You responded "“Actions do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects.” If the wind blows a leaf off a tree which is the conscious object, the leaf or the wind?"
You are correct, but you are also not correct.
If you say that the thing that causes the leave to fall is wind, then you should wonder what the thing is that causes wind.
See, wind does not decide one day to start blowing and another day to start blowing something else.
So if you deduct enough, you will automatically end up with a conscious being.

However, I also realize that that is a bit far sought.
What I should have said was: “Actions with purpose do not occur by themselves, they are always the product of conscious objects."
I thought my writing should have made this clear, but never mind. Thanks for the correction.

Obviously however, the action performed by purgatory is an action with purpose.
The purpose is purification.
So in our discussion my slip of the pen does not effect the conclusions. And in fact, it makes the absurdity of your claims even more clear.


Quote
If I talk to someone I converse with them. We can make a noun of that action and call it a conversation. “Where” does the conversation take place? Well, we could say it is where we are. The “where” of the conversation is the “where” of the objects (people) conversing. Suppose one person is in England and the other in America and the conversation takes place over the telephone. Where does the conversation take place? In England? In America? In mid-atlantic? Does the question of “where” the conversation is make sense?

Thanks for your analogy, but it doesn't help at all.
Lets have a look. The RCC says that purgatory is not in a place. So it is nowhere.
Lets fire this off against your analogy.
You are actually saying that you have two parties who are both nowhere and who have a conversation.
And you wonder in which country the conversation is.
The failure of your analogy is that if both participants of the conversation are nowhere, they simply do not exist and the conversation can never take place.

Anyway, even if your analogy would stand, the answer to your question is quite simple. The conversation takes place in the northern hemisphere.
And that supports the nation that everything that exists, must be somewhere.
And the same goes for purgatory.

Offline winsome

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #47 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 07:23:42 »
Hi AVZ,

As I said, I'm going away in a few days. I have a lot to do first and I don't have time for side issues like metatpyhsical discussions, as interesting as I am finding them.

If you want to discuss the substantive issue of why Purgatory then I will make time but otherwise - au revoir.

P.S. Just a quick extra thought. It seems to me that from then beginning of this thread neither you, nor Ben, nor Hobie actually want to discuss the substantive issue of Purgatory -the why. You have all dived off into side issues, abuse or just attacking the Catholic Church with no evidence.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 07:34:12 by winsome »

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #48 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 07:36:05 »
Hi AVZ,

As I said, I'm going away in a few days. I have a lot to do first and I don't have time for side issues like metatpyhsical discussions, as interesting as I am finding them.

If you want to discuss the substantive issue of why Purgatory then I will make time but otherwise - au revoir.

P.S. Just a quick extra thought. It seems to me that from then beginning of this thread neither you, nor Ben, nor Hobie actually want to discuss the substantive issue of Purgatory -the why. You have all dived off into side issues, abuse or just attacking the Catholic Church with no evidence.


Hi Winsome,
I doubt the sense of a discussion about the why of something if that something cannot exist. The result in my opinion cannot be other but assumption.

Anyway, hope you have a good trip and be safe

Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #49 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 07:54:23 »
In my study on the RCC's belief in purgatory I ran across the following statement: Catholics believe that Christ's atonement did not completely satisfy God's demand for payment of sin and all of the effects and consequences of man's sin, hence purgatory is needed to complete man's salvation.  This is called the "equity notion of divine justice."  Protestants believe that everything that was needed for man to be complete before God was done by Jesus Christ at Calvary.  I believe a simple reading of scripture would bear out the Protestant belief over the Roman view.  The Roman view can be "proven" with lots and lots of explanations, twisting of scripture and lots and lots of "the Greek word for this word doesn't really mean what the translators claim it means, instead it means this, blah, blah, blah."

Ben

AVZ

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #50 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 08:15:30 »
In my study on the RCC's belief in purgatory I ran across the following statement: Catholics believe that Christ's atonement did not completely satisfy God's demand for payment of sin and all of the effects and consequences of man's sin, hence purgatory is needed to complete man's salvation.  This is called the "equity notion of divine justice."  Protestants believe that everything that was needed for man to be complete before God was done by Jesus Christ at Calvary.  I believe a simple reading of scripture would bear out the Protestant belief over the Roman view.  The Roman view can be "proven" with lots and lots of explanations, twisting of scripture and lots and lots of "the Greek word for this word doesn't really mean what the translators claim it means, instead it means this, blah, blah, blah."

Ben

I am with you on this.
The problem is that it has been declared dogmatically.
And since the Catholic Church has declared herself infallible, once you are on the infallible boat sailing south...south you must go.

Offline Ben

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #51 on: Tue Jul 30, 2013 - 09:09:33 »
In my study on the RCC's belief in purgatory I ran across the following statement: Catholics believe that Christ's atonement did not completely satisfy God's demand for payment of sin and all of the effects and consequences of man's sin, hence purgatory is needed to complete man's salvation.  This is called the "equity notion of divine justice."  Protestants believe that everything that was needed for man to be complete before God was done by Jesus Christ at Calvary.  I believe a simple reading of scripture would bear out the Protestant belief over the Roman view.  The Roman view can be "proven" with lots and lots of explanations, twisting of scripture and lots and lots of "the Greek word for this word doesn't really mean what the translators claim it means, instead it means this, blah, blah, blah."

Ben

I am with you on this.
The problem is that it has been declared dogmatically.
And since the Catholic Church has declared herself infallible, once you are on the infallible boat sailing south...south you must go.

So true, and as we all know the only infallible in the world is God and His Word.

Ben

Offline Hobie

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Re: Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, Greek Myths or Mistranslation.
« Reply #52 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:03:33 »
Gods Word is what is true, not so with man or the RCC as we can clearly see.