Author Topic: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?  (Read 8791 times)

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Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #315 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:02:44 »
That is simply not true.  Throughout the OT, forgiveness was received through the sin offerings in the sacrifice of animals.  In the NT, we see that John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness or not, there was and is a price to be paid for sins.  Jesus' death on the cross was the penalty paid in our place. Forgiveness is necessary but not sufficient to obtain eternal life.
Actually, forgiveness of sins is found only one way: by being in covenant with God.

Jer 31.31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Paul and others describe various mechanistic aspects of forgiveness, but it can only be had by being in the covenant. It is a byproduct of being in covenant.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #315 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:02:44 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #316 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:28:40 »
Actually, forgiveness of sins is found only one way: by being in covenant with God.
When John the Baptist, and Jesus and His disciples, went around proclaiming baptism for the forgiveness of sins, under what covenant was that?  It certainly was not found in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant had not yet been put in place.

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #317 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:50:55 »
When John the Baptist, and Jesus and His disciples, went around proclaiming baptism for the forgiveness of sins, under what covenant was that?  It certainly was not found in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant had not yet been put in place.
I am neither a Presbyterian nor a Calvinist; but have great respect for many who are of that stripe.  And I have heard many of them say that God has a way of spilling over from one covenant into a previous one

In Hebrews 6 it talks about "tasting the power of the age to come." That would be one example.  I believe John's baptism, (tevilah in a mikvah) which WAS a Mosaic covenant practice, being given the added attribute of forgiveness in addition to separation was another; the New Covenant spilling into the Mosaic.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #317 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:50:55 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #318 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 07:02:27 »
I am neither a Presbyterian nor a Calvinist; but have great respect for many who are of that stripe.  And I have heard many of them say that God has a way of spilling over from one covenant into a previous one
I have heard many of them say that we are all born Totally Depraved.  That is wrong also.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #318 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 07:02:27 »
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Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #319 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 07:06:49 »
In Hebrews 6 it talks about "tasting the power of the age to come." That would be one example.  I believe John's baptism, (tevilah in a mikvah) which WAS a Mosaic covenant practice, being given the added attribute of forgiveness in addition to separation was another; the New Covenant spilling into the Mosaic.
John's baptism was not a Mosaic covenant practice involving the ordinary Israelite; nor was it a Mosaic covenant practice for receiving forgiveness of sin.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #319 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 07:06:49 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #320 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 09:13:59 »
John's baptism was not a Mosaic covenant practice involving the ordinary Israelite; nor was it a Mosaic covenant practice for receiving forgiveness of sin.
I did not say John's (specifically) was a Mosaic practice; I said BAPTISM was a mosaic practice that involved every observant Jew; moreso the priests. It is still practiced by observant Jews today. Do a search on "bathe in water" to see how common it was.  Mostly in Leviticus.  There it had the sense of removing ceremonial uncleanness.

Leviticus 15:5
Anyone, moreover, who touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening;

He would not be ceremonially clean until after being immersed in water.  Baptized. 

Yes - John attaching forgiveness of sin (spiritual uncleanness) was new, and that was the New Covenant spilling into the Mosaic.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #320 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 09:13:59 »

bel

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #321 on: Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 01:42:33 »
No, it is not still true today. That was true only for Adam and Eve.  There is neither a tree of knowledge of good and evil nor a tree of life available today for anyone to eat the fruit thereof.  And the Spirit of God doesn't dwell in cities; rather the Spirit of God dwells in people.  And the Spirit of God does indeed dwell in the lives of some people who live in gang infested inner cities.

4WD, Yes, it is true today. The tree of life is SYMBOLIC of the Spirit of God.

"The fruit of righteousness is a tree of life and whoever captures souls is wise."
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faithfulness."
"A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit,"
"She(wisdom of God) is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her, those who hold fast are called blessed."
"Death and life are the power of the tongue and those who love it will eat its fruits."
If you eat the fruit of lies (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, meaning what is good and evil according to your own standards instead of God's standards) then you will "die".
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree bad and its fruit bad. For from the fruit is the tree known."


And yes, the Spirit of God does dwell in cities. He dwells in the hearts of the people WHO LIVE IN CITIES. God is obviously not dwelling in the hearts of gang members.

RB, The Law of God( the Golden Rule) does not demand your interpretation of perfection. The Law DEMANDS forgiveness and mercy.
"I demand mercy not sacrifice." No, we do not follow the Law perfectly. That's why the Law says LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. Love does not condemn. It saves.

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #322 on: Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:01:27 »
4WD, Yes, it is true today. The tree of life is SYMBOLIC of the Spirit of God.
So your thinking is that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from having access to the Spirit of God.  Absolutely ridiculous.  But typical of so much of your warped theology.




Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #323 on: Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:16:49 »
I did not say John's (specifically) was a Mosaic practice; I said BAPTISM was a mosaic practice that involved every observant Jew; moreso the priests. It is still practiced by observant Jews today. Do a search on "bathe in water" to see how common it was.  Mostly in Leviticus.  There it had the sense of removing ceremonial uncleanness.

Leviticus 15:5
Anyone, moreover, who touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening;

He would not be ceremonially clean until after being immersed in water.  Baptized. 

Yes - John attaching forgiveness of sin (spiritual uncleanness) was new, and that was the New Covenant spilling into the Mosaic.
I see little if anything that suggests that "bathe in water" in the OT means immerse or "baptize".  Perhaps it does, but it certainly is not obvious. None of the translations that I checked indicate immersion. The Hebrew dictionaries that I checked do not indicate immersion.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #323 on: Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:16:49 »

bel

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #324 on: Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 20:51:40 »
So your thinking is that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from having access to the Spirit of God.  Absolutely ridiculous.  But typical of so much of your warped theology.

4WD, I have no clue what your'e even talking about. I never said Adam and Eve were kicked out to prevent them from having access to the Spirit of God. YOU said that the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are no longer available for anyone to eat the fruit thereof. So by your own words, you're  the one saying that the Spirit of God is no longer available.
the Garden of Eden was a place ON EARTH. And Adam failed to take care of it. He failed to follow God's word. What do you think happened to it? The same thing that happens to all places where the Spirit of God no longer dwells in the hearts of the people. It's the same thing that Moses and all the prophets warn of, the same thing that happened to Egypt, to Sodom and Gomorrah, to Babylon, and to Israel. The land becomes unfruitful and unfit for habitation. So yes, both "trees" still exist. The tree of life represents the Spirit of God and HIS authority versus man deciding for himself what is right and wrong( the tree of the knowledge of good and evil)

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #325 on: Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 04:03:18 »
The tree of life represents the Spirit of God
That is absolute nonsense. Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Offline RB

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #326 on: Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 05:12:33 »
The tree of life represents the Spirit of God and HIS authority versus man deciding for himself what is right and wrong( the tree of the knowledge of good and evil)
Bel, you and GB your twin, have a very strange way of speaking forth the truth of the word of God, in such a manner that's foreign to even the scriptures, so, they naturally would be so to every sincere seeker of truth.

I do not want to hijack this thread but will say this and then we can continue this in another thread if you desire to do so. If I wanted to have an understanding of the Tree of life, then I would consider the sense in which the Spirit of God used it AGAIN in Revelation 22 when speaking about the new earth and heavens that shall be created after the final judgment~do you not agree?
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
Revelation 22:1-3~"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"
Would you like to consider these scriptures in light of your strange understanding of the the tree of life in Eden?
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 2:8-10~"And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Would you like for me to start a thread and you come there to discuss Genesis 2 and Revelation 22? Maybe we both can learn something we have never considered before.

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #327 on: Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 05:28:54 »
I see little if anything that suggests that "bathe in water" in the OT means immerse or "baptize".  Perhaps it does, but it certainly is not obvious. None of the translations that I checked indicate immersion. The Hebrew dictionaries that I checked do not indicate immersion.
Look at Jewish sources instead of christian ones. 

https://www.ou.org/life/torah/mm_mikvah/
https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm


And a couple of Messianic sources:
https://www.kesherjournal.com/article/immersion-connecting-jewish-and-christian-traditions/
https://www.thetorah.com/article/on-the-origins-of-tevilah-ritual-immersion

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #328 on: Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 15:25:24 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #329 on: Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:07:13 »
I understand, but that is a bit like looking at Calvinist sources for the meaning of words like foreknown, elect, sovereignty, etc.
Not really.  Calvinist thought on scripture is a millennium and a half removed from first century Judaic thought and practice.  Orthodox Jewish sources have attempted to preserve that culture and mindset.

Offline Amo

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #330 on: Fri Nov 27, 2020 - 21:48:40 »
When John the Baptist, and Jesus and His disciples, went around proclaiming baptism for the forgiveness of sins, under what covenant was that?  It certainly was not found in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant had not yet been put in place.

That would be the everlasting covenant which embraces all of humanities history since the fall. Which of course embraces both the old and new covenants.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Of course if one does not believe in the flood, such would not have any spiritual significance.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 27, 2020 - 21:53:14 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #331 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 06:11:33 »
That would be the everlasting covenant which embraces all of humanities history since the fall. Which of course embraces both the old and new covenants.
I don't think that the old covenant which, in Hebrews, is said to have become obsolete could ever be referred to as the "everlasting covenant".  The old covenant was, by definition, a temporary covenant.  The everlasting covenant refers to the New Covenant brought forth by Jesus Christ through the shedding of His own blood at the cross.

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Of course if one does not believe in the flood, such would not have any spiritual significance.
Once again you make the assertion that I don't believe in the flood.  I surely do believe in the flood of Noah.  I just don't believe in your interpretation of the flood as a global flood.

Offline Amo

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #332 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 11:08:05 »
I don't think that the old covenant which, in Hebrews, is said to have become obsolete could ever be referred to as the "everlasting covenant".  The old covenant was, by definition, a temporary covenant.  The everlasting covenant refers to the New Covenant brought forth by Jesus Christ through the shedding of His own blood at the cross.
Once again you make the assertion that I don't believe in the flood.  I surely do believe in the flood of Noah.  I just don't believe in your interpretation of the flood as a global flood.

The sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the LAMB of God, for the sins of this world has never been nor will ever be obsolete. The sacrificial system representing this one and only salvific faith, was implemented immediately after the fall of humanity. Those of the pre-flood world and the old covenant looked forward to this event by faith, we of the new covenant era look back upon this event which this world denies and rejects, by faith. The everlasting covenant built upon salvation in Christ alone, has no doubt existed in the mind of God from eternity. The events of this world did not catch Him by surprise.

I could go on addressing the implications of rejecting the world wide flood, and the creation and fall of humanity as opposed to the evolutionary theory with you, but we have already done this many times over. It would only end up steering this thread off topic. So, let's not go there. Happy Sabbath to all.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #333 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 11:21:24 »
4WD, I have no clue what your'e even talking about. I never said Adam and Eve were kicked out to prevent them from having access to the Spirit of God.

bel,

Anyone reading your posts here, and having any knowledge about Adam and Eve's eviction  would certainly come to the same logical conclusion that 4WD mentioned in his reply to you.

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #334 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 04:58:59 »
I could go on addressing the implications of rejecting the world wide flood, and the creation and fall of humanity as opposed to the evolutionary theory with you, but we have already done this many times over. It would only end up steering this thread off topic. So, let's not go there.
Of course.  You tend to smear the fact that I don't agree with your views and then think that my defending my views would "only end up steering this thread off topic". But you introduced it. What a twit.  And by the way again.  I do not reject the flood of Noah, the creation or the fall of man.  I do most definitely reject your bogus and distorted views of all three of those events.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #335 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 08:13:37 »
Of course.  You tend to smear the fact that I don't agree with your views and then think that my defending my views would "only end up steering this thread off topic". But you introduced it. What a twit.  And by the way again.  I do not reject the flood of Noah, the creation or the fall of man.  I do most definitely reject your bogus and distorted views of all three of those events.

Why would bringing up the fact that we do not agree about creation, the flood, or the fall of humanity be a smear, unless your views are not true. Don't you believe they are true? If so, you should not consider someone merely referring to them as a smear. You calling me a twit, and what I believe bogus and distorted may be an attempt to smear on your part, or just an over reaction to a personally sensitive issue. I do not attempt to smear anyone, or just win an argument, only to share the truth unto the enlightenment of God's word. Do you not wish to do the same?

I can't smear other people, I know myself to well, and that I stand just as condemned before God as anyone else on this green earth. Apart from Christ, I most certainly am an evil twit, just like you and everyone else on these boards and planet. Like I said though, we're just going off topic. It bugs me when people do it to a thread I started, so I do at least like to try to try not to do so on other peoples threads. As is obvious, I do not always succeed.

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #336 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 13:44:53 »
What a bunch of BS;
Why would bringing up the fact that we do not agree about creation, the flood, or the fall of humanity be a smear
You didn't say anything about our disagreeing. You said,
I could go on addressing the implications of rejecting the world wide flood, and the creation and fall of humanity....
You directly accused me of rejecting the world wide flood, and the creation and fall of humanity....Now I do reject the notion of a worldwide flood.  But I do not reject the flood of Noah, the creation or the fall of humanity.  As I said, quite clearly, I reject your views of the flood, the creation and the fall.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #337 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 23:26:02 »
I did not say John's (specifically) was a Mosaic practice; I said BAPTISM was a mosaic practice that involved every observant Jew; moreso the priests. It is still practiced by observant Jews today. Do a search on "bathe in water" to see how common it was.  Mostly in Leviticus.  There it had the sense of removing ceremonial uncleanness.

Leviticus 15:5
Anyone, moreover, who touches his bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening;

He would not be ceremonially clean until after being immersed in water.  Baptized. 

Yes - John attaching forgiveness of sin (spiritual uncleanness) was new, and that was the New Covenant spilling into the Mosaic.
I'm gonna have to disagree here, Dave.

While the Torah has plenty of ritual washings, the Levitical washings are intended to remove ritual uncleanness, and this is usually for priests, or those who are defiled due to contagious disease (ie leprosy).  Christian baptism is for neither of these purposes.  Christian baptism does not answer to this practice.  They are two different things.

Christian baptism finds its Jewish counterpart in a different ritual immersion practiced as part of the Oral Law.  That is the immersion of proselytes, who were baptized (in the name of Abraham) as part of the process of them becoming Jewish.  The immersion of proselytes is fundamentally an adoption ceremony.  The intent is a change in lineage/genealogy.  This answers very well to the New Testament practice, which the Bible explicitly names as an adoption.

Finally, I offer you linguistic evidence.  When the Jews translated the Torah into Greek (the LXX), they didn't use the word for baptize (βάπτισμα) to speak of ANY of the ritual ablutions in the Torah.  They didn't even use the root (bapto), though it properly means "wash."  They used a completely different word (λούω).

Scour the LXX, and you will find only one reference to baptism - that is the story of Naaman.

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #338 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 16:27:09 »
I have heard many of them say that we are all born Totally Depraved.  That is wrong also.

The doctrine of Total Depravity came from the Roman Catholic church and was later adopted by protestants.   The purpose of it is to make church membership the redeeming quality rather than faith in the blood of Christ.

The Bible does NOT teach total depravity.   

Saying that all mankind are sinners is not the same as saying all are guilty of SIN from the moment of birth.   That's a whole different argument.

The LAW states that a man is guilty of SIN when he breaks the LAW.   One is not guilty of a SIN he has not committed. Can any man be convicted of bank robbery is he hasn't done it?  Certainly not.

The LAW gives specific sacrifices for SIN.   It states NO sacrifice for SIN for the birth of a child.  An offering, rather than a sacrifice, was required in observance of the birth of a child.   Hence, according to Biblical LAW, a child is born without SIN.   He or she will acquire guilt as life goes on, but none are born with it as the doctrine of depravity states.

If a woman loses her child during birth will her baby go to hell?  According to God's LAW it will NOT because it has no guilt.

What comfort is the doctrine of total depravity to such a woman, to the family of a child lost to disease or the accident of birth?   None at all.   

Neither should it be given the weight of a feather in any doctrinal statement of faith.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Offline dan p

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #339 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 18:24:28 »
Hi and this is what 2  Cor 3:16 to me is  saying !

 #1 When a Jew is  reading Moses  and  SHALL  TURN / EPISTREPHO  and is in the  Greek  AORIST  TENSE , ACTIVE  VOICE  , and in  SUBJECTIVE  MOOD and the  subjective  mood  controls this verse as the  SUBJECTIVE  as to any  Jew   WILL  or  NOT  TURN  TO THE LORD !!

#2 The  Greek words  THE  LORD / KYRIOS  is in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE  is the  DIRECT  OBJECT that , he will turn too !!

#3 The  Greek  THE  VAIL / KALYMMA  is in the  NOMINATIVE  CASE  or the  subject !!

 #4 SHALL BE  TAKEN  AWAY/PENAIREO is in the  Greek  PRESENT  TENSE , PASSIVE  VOICE  and in the  INDICATICE  MOOD  and means it is a  FACT !!

 #5 In  verse 17 , then there is  FREEDOM  and  FREEDOM  from the  Law of Moses !!

 #6 Ans  verse 18 when reflecting as the  GLORY OF THE  LORD  a  mirror  are  being  TRANSFORMED INTO THE same  image from  glory into  glory , just as  from the  SPIRIT  of the  LORD !!

 That Jew will be saved by  GRACE and  placed into the  BODY OF  CHRIST !!

 dan p

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #340 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 23:12:35 »
The LAW gives specific sacrifices for SIN.   It states NO sacrifice for SIN for the birth of a child.  An offering, rather than a sacrifice, was required in observance of the birth of a child.   Hence, according to Biblical LAW, a child is born without SIN.   He or she will acquire guilt as life goes on, but none are born with it as the doctrine of depravity states.
The Law gives special treatment to this topic.

That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD'S.  And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.  Exodus 13:12

Contextually, the Canaanites practiced infant sacrifice.  Their gods claimed all firstborn sons, and the Canaanites sacrificed them in a variety of ways.  You've probably heard of the horrific immolation of infants using the bronze Molech, but they also crushed infants into jars and buried them under the floorboards of houses "for luck."

It was important for God to claim the Israelites firstborn sons as His own... not because of sins.  That had nothing to do with it.  It was important because if He hadn't, a lot of 'em would've ended up sacrificed to Canaanite gods!

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #341 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 08:04:44 »
The doctrine of Total Depravity came from the Roman Catholic church and was later adopted by protestants.   The purpose of it is to make church membership the redeeming quality rather than faith in the blood of Christ.

The Bible does NOT teach total depravity.   

Saying that all mankind are sinners is not the same as saying all are guilty of SIN from the moment of birth.   That's a whole different argument.
Total depravity as the RCC and EOC taught it is NOT the same as how Calvin taught it. None of the pre-reformation churches taught that one was incapable of choosing to follow the Lord. (Calvinist total depravity)

The idea of being born a lost sinner came from the Psalms:

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

The commentators realized that David was NOT a child of adultery, so they concluded that it must mean that everyone is born a sinner.  That is a step ahead of the ECFs who concluded that it meant that marital sex was sinful. (even though it was COMMANDED by God)

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #342 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 08:09:05 »
The LAW gives specific sacrifices for SIN.   It states NO sacrifice for SIN for the birth of a child.  An offering, rather than a sacrifice, was required in observance of the birth of a child. 
The woman being tamay - ceremonially unclean -  after the birth of a child has nothing to do with sin.  If it did, it would have been HER sin, not the child's.  She was the one who had to make the sacrifice/offering.

the bible is silent on the topic of sinfulness of new born children.

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #343 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 09:13:53 »
the bible is silent on the topic of sinfulness of new born children.
A lot of people get really nervous at that idea.

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #344 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 10:04:13 »
the bible is silent on the topic of sinfulness of new born children.
Not really.  Romans 5:12-19 establishes the sinlessness of the new born and any other who might be too mentally incapacitated to understand law.  Also that God forms the spirit of man in him (Zech 12:1) guarantees that the newborn is sinless.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 12:45:06 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #345 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 10:09:05 »
Not really.  Ephesians 5:12-19 establishes the sinlessness of the new born and any other who might be too mentally incapacitated to understand law.

Ephesians 5:12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says,

“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.”

15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

I don't see that in there at all.
===========================
ETA:
You added the Zechariah verse after I started answering.  But I do not see that in there either.

People get really nervous about things the bible does not address; so they feel they have to manufacture something from other unrelated passages to placate their minds and give an answer.

Saying children are born sinless or sinful - either way is a manufactured answer not truly supported by scripture.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 10:13:17 by DaveW »

Offline 4WD

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #346 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 12:44:27 »
Ephesians 5:12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says,

“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.”

15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

I don't see that in there at all.
===========================


People get really nervous about things the bible does not address; so they feel they have to manufacture something from other unrelated passages to placate their minds and give an answer.

Saying children are born sinless or sinful - either way is a manufactured answer not truly supported by scripture.

Sorry, I meant Romans 5:12-19.  I was studying Ephesians, and my fingers just typed the wrong thing.  I corrected it to Romans.
Quote
[size=10ptETA:You added the Zechariah verse after I started answering.  But I do not see that in there either.][/size]
With the Zechariah passage, God says that he forms the spirit of man in him.  Do you seriously believe that the spirit that God forms in man is dead in the trespasses and sins of Adam?

Offline dan p

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Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #347 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 17:56:33 »
 Hi and tread  Rom 9:11 , and what does this mean ?

 dan p