Author Topic: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?  (Read 8763 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:04:24 »
ALL THE MEN of the city shall stone him to death with stones. :(


But look at the post below.  They all left . The men who was commanded to stone people to death left . From the oldest first. If you have Lived a long time,  you have to have a bundle of sins in your bank.lol

Imagine if Jesus applied the law to them now...creep slowly out the door without making a sound. Lol
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:18:01 by Bemark »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:04:24 »

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #36 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:06:36 »
John 8
New King James Version
Jesus the Light of the World

8 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 Now [a]early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now [c]Moses, in the law, commanded us [d]that such should be stoned. But what do You [e]say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, [f]as though He did not hear.

7 So when they continued asking Him, He [g]raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being[h] convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers [j]of yours? Has no one condemned you?”

11 She said, “No one, Lord.”

And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go [k]and sin no more.”

12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”


Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #37 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:09:57 »
Then we have this .

Acts 15
New King James Version
Conflict over Circumcision

15 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’
18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”


Forgive the bold letters...,it just does this on my iPad when I post stuff over ...I can’t figure it out


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #37 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:09:57 »

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #38 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:25:38 »
Most stuff said in churches are to keep the children from going crazy. Control

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #38 on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 19:25:38 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 05, 2020 - 07:27:57 »
Yes there is.

Deuteronomy gives the terms of the covenant between God and Israel that Moses mediated.  The rest of the history covered in Genesis, Exodus, and Numbers is just that - history.

As for Leviticus, it was a handbook for priests.  It wasn't intended for everyone, nor was it covenanted on the whole nation.  The Levitical priesthood was annulled.  The Law was not.  If there is no difference between the two, how is such a thing possible?  It isn't.
There are parts that pertain to men, to women, to children, to slaves, to slave owners, to Levites, to priests; etc.

Just because a technical issue renders certain of the 613 unobservable at present does NOT mean there is a division and part has been nullified.

We say our Lord completely obeyed the Law of Moses. Did he self quarantine during menses? Leviticus 15.19.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 05, 2020 - 07:32:23 by DaveW »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 05, 2020 - 07:27:57 »



Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 03:55:52 »
The LAW is given that one may be saved.
Sir, this is not scriptural in what you are saying~the law of God was not given that one may be saved. Now if you use that in a practical sense, then I would agree with you, but to say that in a vital sense, then you are so wrong. The Law of God has different functions, but the main one is this: It was given to be a schoolmaster for God's children given to Jesus Christ so that they would learn to put all of their trust/faith in Jesus' righteousness, and not in their own works of doing this, or that, etc. In THIS MEANS it would be a source of their practical salvation from ignorance to the truth of the gospel. But to say it was given to SAVED them from sins and condemnation is to teach a salvation by works and not by grace alone. If you desire to take this further and deeper, then by all means let us do so.
Quote from: Choir Loft on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 11:17:53
GRACE is poured out that one may please God by living BY THE LAW.
It is MUCH MORE than that. Grace is given to us on the behalf of Jesus' obedience in REGENERATION whereby, a NEW MAN is created IN US after the very image of Jesus Christ, giving us the POWER and DESIRE to delight in the law of God, apart from us having an active part in this NEW BIRTH....it is indeed all of grace. Those who are children serve the law of God with their inward new mind.
Quote from: Choir Loft on: Sun Oct 04, 2020 - 11:17:53
If one wishes to learn the deep things of God, then the LAW is where those things will be discovered. 
Born again sinners DO DELIGHT in God's law, but the law is NOT where the deep things of God are to be found~it is found IN CHRIST, not the law:
Quote
Colossians 2:2,3~"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
This is not even debatable.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 04:39:10 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 03:55:52 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #41 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 04:58:17 »
With regard to payment for SIN, Jesus' good example meant nothing to anybody, including God.
I working on a post to answer this post by you, trust to have it for you today. The scriptures will testify who has been deceived by another gospel.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #42 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 06:12:54 »
With regard to payment for SIN, Jesus' good example meant nothing to anybody, including God.
Your post truly shows just how confused you are~maybe you should reconsider your understanding, for it shows me that you do not understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. We could write many pages on on this subject but will start out with only a few words, and go from there.

1. We are made righteous by the obedience of Christ is a truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that cannot be disputed.
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 5:19~"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
The things are spoken of are opposites, and their effects are direct contraries. Now, the opposite of disobedience, is not suffering punishment, or a penal death. But obedience to the commands of the Law is the opposite of disobedience. And, therefore, it is not Christ’s Sufferings and Death, which Paul opposes to Adam’s disobedience; but his active obedience to the Law’s Precepts. The effect of Adam’s disobedience, is guiltiness, or we are made sinners, i.e. guilty thereby. And the effect of Christ’s obedience is the contrary to that of Adam’s Disobedience, we are made righteous, or constituted such, by that, and not by what he suffered for us. THEREFORE, we must conclude, that the active obedience of our blessed Savior, is imputed to us, in order to our Justification, before God. His death would have been in vain if he was not the Lamb of God without spot or blemish.

2. One more for now. Christ came under the Law for our sakes, in the character of our Surety~ and, therefore, he obeyed it for us, as well as suffered its curse, on our accounts.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 7:22~"By so much was Jesus made the surety of a better Testament."
His sponsor, or, you can say his undertaking, in the Covenant of Grace, was the ground of his coming under the obligation of the Covenant of Works. And, without that, he had never been in subjection to the first Covenant.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:4,5~"He was made of a woman, and made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law"
By a sovereign appointment of God, with his own consent, as our Surety, he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it. Now what he acted, in that character, as well as what he suffered, therein, was for us, and is placed to our account. Since, therefore, he yielded obedience to the Law, in the character of our Surety, as he suffered its curse, in that character, his active obedience, was for us, no less than his death. And it is placed to our account, or imputed to us. The reason is the same, for the imputation of what he did, as for the imputation of what he suffered, viz. His coming under the obligation of the Covenant of Works, as our Surety. And, therefore, his fulfilling the righteousness of the Law, was for us, and is reckoned to us, as his suffering its penal Sanction was for us, and is reckoned unto us. Consequently, his active obedience is ours, and was yielded by him for us, with a view to our justification.

More later......RB
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 06:19:25 by RB »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:16:17 »
By a sovereign appointment of God, with his own consent, as our Surety, he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it. Now what he acted, in that character, as well as what he suffered, therein, was for us, and is placed to our account. Since, therefore, he yielded obedience to the Law, in the character of our Surety, as he suffered its curse, in that character, his active obedience, was for us, no less than his death. And it is placed to our account, or imputed to us. The reason is the same, for the imputation of what he did, as for the imputation of what he suffered, viz. His coming under the obligation of the Covenant of Works, as our Surety. And, therefore, his fulfilling the righteousness of the Law, was for us, and is reckoned to us, as his suffering its penal Sanction was for us, and is reckoned unto us. Consequently, his active obedience is ours, and was yielded by him for us, with a view to our justification.

More later......RB
Red, allow me to somewhat amend what you wrote here. You said:

he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it.

The question was, as gentiles (which makes up over 90% of the church world) WHEN were we ever "under the Law?" The Law was given to Israel/the Jews and no one else.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:16:17 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #44 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:25:13 »
Speaking of Romans 5:19 you wrote the following:
The things are spoken of are opposites, and their effects are direct contraries. Now, the opposite of disobedience, is not suffering punishment, or a penal death. But obedience to the commands of the Law is the opposite of disobedience. And, therefore, it is not Christ’s Sufferings and Death, which Paul opposes to Adam’s disobedience; but his active obedience to the Law’s Precepts. The effect of Adam’s disobedience, is guiltiness, or we are made sinners, i.e. guilty thereby. And the effect of Christ’s obedience is the contrary to that of Adam’s Disobedience, we are made righteous, or constituted such, by that, and not by what he suffered for us. THEREFORE, we must conclude, that the active obedience of our blessed Savior, is imputed to us, in order to our Justification, before God. His death would have been in vain if he was not the Lamb of God without spot or blemish.
You almost have it, but not quite.
Quote from: RB
The things are spoken of are opposites, and their effects are direct contraries.
That is correct. It is the effect of Jesus' obedience that is the direct opposite of the effect of Adam's disobedience. What was the effect of Adam's disobedience? The effect of Adam's disobedience was that many were made sinners. 

Who were the many? Actually verse 18 tells us who the many were.  It says that the many were actually all men.  That is every last human being.  This is almost universally understood to mean that every person is born a sinner.  This is probably the major passage of Scripture used as the basis for original sin.  And that is correct.  So then what is the direct opposite of that. Verse 19 says that by Jesus' obedience many shall be made righteous.  Again, who were the many.  Any correct exegesis will insist that it is the same many that were made sinners.  Here again, from verse 18 the many were all men. That is every last human being.  How can that be?  Is Paul teaching universal salvation?  No, of course not.  Then what is he saying.  You said it. 
Quote from: RB
The things are spoken of are opposites, and their effects are direct contraries.
Due to Adam's disobedience all men were born sinners; or at least they would have been except for the opposite, the direct contrary. Due to Jesus' obedience all men were born righteous.

Please note that this discussion by Paul in the whole passage of Romans 5:12-19 is a comparison of the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience.  It is NOT a comparison of the effects of OUR disobedience, i.e.. our sins, and the effect of Jesus obedience.  It is only Adam's sin, not our sin, that is being considered.

What Paul has said here is that the effect of Jesus' obedience was to negate completely the effect of Adam's disobedience.  It says nothing about the our sin.  Verse 12 says that death passed upon all men, not because of Adam's sin; but rather because all have sinned.  Paul has said what Jesus did about the sin of Adam.  He next takes up what Jesus did about our sins.  That is the topic of discussion in Chapter 6.

So while many will claim that Romans 5:12-19 establishes the doctrine of Original Sin, I say that Romans 5:12-19 establishes the doctrine of Original Grace.  Man comes into the world as a righteous being.  He becomes unrighteous, because he sins.  And because he sins, he needs a savior.  Man has a savior in Jesus and that not through Jesus obedience but through the perfect obedient Jesus' death on the cross and His being raised to life.  Paul says of those who have been baptized into Christ Jesus that "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:28:03 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #45 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:34:15 »
Red, allow me to somewhat amend what you wrote here. You said:

he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it.

The question was, as gentiles (which makes up over 90% of the church world) WHEN were we ever "under the Law?" The Law was given to Israel/the Jews and no one else.
Are you suggesting that Galatians 4:4-5 is not applicable to the Gentile?  If so, you are wrong.  You clearly do not understand what Paul is talking about.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 08:53:30 »
Red, allow me to somewhat amend what you wrote here. You said:

he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it.

The question was, as gentiles (which makes up over 90% of the church world) WHEN were we ever "under the Law?" The Law was given to Israel/the Jews and no one else.
Paul speaks of the law with all its appendages. From subjection to that law we are redeemed, which we WERE under IN ADAM. Adam was placed under a law~which was a simple one law commandment, which he did not obey when left to himself!

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 09:55:05 »
Are you suggesting that Galatians 4:4-5 is not applicable to the Gentile?  If so, you are wrong.  You clearly do not understand what Paul is talking about.
Paul clears that up here:

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Gentiles by birth are without the Law.

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 10:56:35 »
Red, allow me to somewhat amend what you wrote here. You said:

he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it.

The question was, as gentiles (which makes up over 90% of the church world) WHEN were we ever "under the Law?" The Law was given to Israel/the Jews and no one else.

Paul doesn't agree.

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Being "under the law" means being dead because we broke it. In this way everyone is brought to the same plane, Jew and gentile.

As Paul teaches.

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


 "For God is no respecter of persons."

When the death penalty we earned for disobedience was paid by Jesus, we are no longer "under the Law", dead, but are "alive" through the Grace of God.

Now that we are free from the clutches of sin and death, we are "Free" to repent and Serve another.

As Paul teaches every man.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should (Both) repent (From what?) and turn to God, (What God?) and do works (Whose Works?) meet for repentance.

And where do we find these "good works"? Let's ask Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God (Jew or Gentile) may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As Paul also teaches in Ephesians.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.







Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Oct 06, 2020 - 12:13:05 »
Paul clears that up here:

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Gentiles by birth are without the Law.
You should keep reading. 

Rom 2:14  For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #50 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 01:27:09 »
Maybe we should rewind the clock to Adam. All mankind that was ever born came under the law, as In Adam we got effected by it. We all die . That is why we was born outside of the garden and we was born with disease. Jew and gentile alike

We are all subject to the law of death and disease . Before that, did Adam and Eve have eternal life? Did they age in the garden or was born in adult form?

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #51 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 01:35:09 »
Because if we rewind the clock to Adam . Both Jew and gentile received the wages of death . Then we advance the clock to Christ. Both Jew and gentile receive the free gift of God. Eternal life

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #52 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 01:42:04 »
Now sin, our sin , is seperated forever , this sin now , can not,  nor will seperate us from the love of God. He caged it in himself,  He took it all and buried it in himself. He filtered us , so we can be one with the Father The Son And the Holy Spirit. We passed though him into the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Born again.  Filtered, made right.  We all Jew and gentile who believe and receive , will be one together in him. Gods chosen people before the foundation of the earth. 

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #53 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 04:44:32 »
Speaking of Romans 5:19 you wrote the following: You almost have it, but not quite. That is correct. It is the effect of Jesus' obedience that is the direct opposite of the effect of Adam's disobedience. What was the effect of Adam's disobedience? The effect of Adam's disobedience was that many were made sinners.
Here is a short answer to your post, by giving a longer one would take this thread in another direction. You are always welcome to take this to its own thread and there we would come to go into your position deeper.

4WD~manily where we disagree, or at least where we go into a different direction is here:
Quote from: The apostle Paul
Romans 5:15-19~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
How did the free gift of the righteousness of God come upon all men, seeing all are not saved? You explain it as saying all were born righteous, yet we KNOW that is not so, especially in light of the testimony of the scriptures, and OT examples of infants, being destroyed along with everyone else. God does NOT destroy the righteous along with the wicked.
Quote from: Abraham
Genesis 18:23-25~"And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
The coming of the free gift upon all is contrasted with the coming of condemnation on all, and therefore it cannot mean that condemnation actually came upon all, while the free gift was only provided for all. Besides, it is added, unto justification of life~ This is the issue of the coming of the free gift. It ends in the justification of life. Upon all men. We conclude the persons here referred to must be those, and those only, who are partakers of justification, and who shall be finally saved. What then? Are all men to be justified? No; but the "all men" here said to be justified, are the "all" of every nation, tribe, and kindred, whether Jews or Gentiles, represented by Christ. All who have been one with Adam were involved in his condemnation, and all who are one with Christ shall be justified by His righteousness. No violence is necessary in order to restrict the universality of the terms "all men" as they appear in this verse. General expressions must ever be construed with reference to their connection, and the context sufficiently defines their meaning. There is here an obvious and specific reference to the two heads of the human race, the first and the second man; and the "all men," twice spoken of in this verse, are placed in contrast to each other, as denoting the two families into which the world is divided. All men, then, must be limited to their respective heads. When this is understood, the meaning is alike clear and consistent, but without this, all is dark and incongruous, and corruption of the scriptures follows. If the "all men" in the latter clause of the verse are made to apply to mankind without exception and not to all men without distinction, then it follows that all men are justified, and all are made partakers of eternal life. But as this would contradict truth and Scripture, so the whole tenor of the Apostle’s argument proves that the interpretation already stated is the true one. On account of the offense of Adam, sentence of death was pronounced upon all whom he represented. On account of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, sentence of justification unto life was pronounced in favor of all whom He represented.

There is a likeness between the sin of Adam and the gift of righteousness by Christ. But, as in most instances with regard to types, the anti type surpasses the type; and while in some respects the type furnishes a likeness, in others it may be very dissimilar. The sin of Adam involved all his posterity in guilt and ruin, as they were all created in him as their head, and consequently in him are guilty by his disobedience. This was a shadow of the gift of righteousness by grace. All Christ’s seed were created in Him, per Ephesians 2:10, and are righteous by His obedience.


Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #54 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 04:49:54 »
Quote
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
It ENDED with Adam as far as seeking justification of life~it is ETERNAL as far as a rule to live by! Selah!
 

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #55 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 05:19:52 »
Being "under the law" means being dead because we broke it. In this way everyone is brought to the same plane, Jew and gentile.
There is our disagreement.  The "Law" mentioned here is the Mosaic covenant; NOT the Abrahamic or Noahic or Adamic.

That was ONLY with Israel.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #56 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 06:27:49 »
Because if we rewind the clock to Adam . Both Jew and gentile received the wages of death . Then we advance the clock to Christ. Both Jew and gentile receive the free gift of God. Eternal life

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The death as wages of sin is not physical death; rather it is spiritual death.  Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death the instant that they disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  They didn't die physically because of that disobedience, at least directly.  They died physically because God kicked them out of the Garden and they were no longer able to eat of the fruit of the tree of life and live forever: Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" Physical death is an integral part of God's physical creation.



Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #57 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 07:04:03 »
RB, you said,
God does NOT destroy the righteous along with the wicked,
and then quoted Genesis 18:25. First of all, as I noted above in my response to Bemark, physical death is an integral part of God's creation.  There is nothing unjust in God's ending the physical life of anyone, righteous or unrighteous.  Physical death, whether caused by God or anything else, is not the direct result of sin, even if in some cases, a particular sin such as drug overdose may result in death.  The statement in Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is death...", is not speaking of physical death.  The account of Abraham in Genesis concerning Sodom and Gomorrah is the appeal to God by Abraham based, not on any trait or characteristic of God, but rather on Abraham's hopeful reasoning. The death of infants is not proof, or even a suggestion, to their being unrighteous. Your argument against my position on Romans 5:19 is invalid.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 07:10:47 by 4WD »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #58 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 08:06:35 »
There is our disagreement.  The "Law" mentioned here is the Mosaic covenant; NOT the Abrahamic or Noahic or Adamic.

That was ONLY with Israel.

That is a popular religious philosophy, one followed by "many". But Paul says otherwise in the Scriptures I posted.

The problem here is understanding the definition of "Mosaic" Law.

There were two Covenants given to Israel. The Covenant God made with Abraham was furthered on to Abraham's children as discussed in the Holy Scriptures.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This "Way of the Lord" included God's commandments, Statutes, and Judgments which define SIN. These Laws are "Good, Just, and Holy and Spiritual as Paul tells us.

But Israel broke this covenant, something Abraham did not do. So God created a LAW that Abraham didn't have. This Law, called the Levitical Priesthood in Hebrews, was "ADDED" to God's Laws, Commandments, and statutes, "Because of Transgressions". It was a Temporary Law placed on Israel, "Till the seed should Come".

This "Law of works" as Paul calls it, provided for the administration of God's Laws, and also provided for the atonement of transgressions of God's Laws.

This is the Mosaic covenant that changed, and the temporary sacrificial "works" for atonement provided for therein, have became obsolete.

No more Levite Priests to administer God's Laws to the people, God has made HIS Laws available to all.

No more Levite Priests to sprinkle the blood of a goat on the alter for atonement of sins, or "justification" as Paul calls it. Jesus shed HIS own Blood once and for all.

A New Covenant.

This is not the LAW Paul was speaking to in Romans.

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Jews and Gentiles are all under obligation to submit themselves to God's Righteousness. "Thou shall not Covet" is not the "Mosaic" Covenant, but are part of God's Eternal Law given to all mankind, not the least of which was Abraham.

But what if I broke this Covenant and were in need of atonement? This is where to Mosaic Covenant comes in. God separated Levi from all the peoples of the world, and made a temporary covenant with him "Till the Seed should come". A Covenant Abraham didn't have. Abraham's sin was atoned for "Apart" from the Mosaic Covenant.

This is not taught in the religions of the land, as prophesied. But it is in the Holy scriptures. This "Law of Moses", also called the Levitical Priesthood, with its "works and Deeds" for justification, is what the Jews couldn't let go. They were still promoting these sacrificial "Works of the Law" to provide forgiveness of sins, or "Justification" as Paul calls it.

But the Christ, when HE Defined HIS NEW Covenant for us, tells us these "works" will come to an end "After those days".

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

OK, Here it is. Here is the God Himself defining HIS OWN New Covenant.

 After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

How was God's Law administered before "after those days"? Was it not the exclusive duty of the Levite Priest, and no other, to read the "Book of the Law" to the people?


 "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"

How was sin forgiven before "after those days"? Was it not provided by men taking a sin offering exclusively to the Levite Priest who would then perform "works of the Law" for justification/atonement/forgiveness?

So is the Law of Moses still in effect? When a man understands the truth about the Covenant God made with Levi, the answer is no. This "LAW" which was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, "Till the seed should come", is no longer in effect.

But God's Statutes, Commandments, and Laws this Levitical Priesthood was "ADDED" to, are still God's definition of sin.

It is the cleaver and subtle religious philosophy of men that refuse to Separate the covenant God made with Levi, from the Laws it was ADDED to, that have caused this truth to be hidden.

But now we have HIS Word in our very homes, so we can study and see for ourselves, no longer dependent on the priest or preacher for "instruction in Righteousness". We can choose not to listen to the "other voice" in the garden.


Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32:26)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Check it out for yourself.











Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #59 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 09:23:26 »
There were two Covenants given to Israel. The Covenant God made with Abraham was furthered on to Abraham's children as discussed in the Holy Scriptures.
The covenant revealed to Abraham, is a covenant of GRACE, not based on works! There are only TWO covenants in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation~one based works of the flesh, the other based on God's promises and his oath~there is in not a third, fourth, etc. The covenant of grace was NOT given to the nation of Israel but only to the children of God's promises~which Abraham, and Issac, ( whose birth more than anyone in the OT was an allegory of ALL of the children of God's promises in Christ ) Jacob, were the recipient's of that covenant made before the foundation of the world, OR from eternity with Jesus Christ being their head of the elect body~thereby, he is termed God's elect by Isaiah the prophet. 

So much much more could be said~but I'm heading out of town, be back later today. RB

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13253
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #60 on: Wed Oct 07, 2020 - 14:49:28 »
But Israel broke this covenant, something Abraham did not do. So God created a LAW that Abraham didn't have. This Law, called the Levitical Priesthood in Hebrews, was "ADDED" to God's Laws, Commandments, and statutes, "Because of Transgressions". It was a Temporary Law placed on Israel, "Till the seed should Come".
Right here is where you went off-the-tracks.

Abraham had a covenant with God, which was indeed passed down.  It was not based on a law.

Israel had a covenant with God, which was mediated by Moses.  It is "the Law," and it is comprised of statutes and judgments.

The Law does not include the Levitical priesthood.  The priesthood was added to the Law because Israel immediately transgressed the Law, and its function was essentially to defer punishment and redeem the guilty.

The book of Hebrews does not confute the two.  Hebrews tells us about the annulment of the Levitical priesthood.  It does not annul the Law.

Jarrod

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #61 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 01:02:10 »
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The death as wages of sin is not physical death; rather it is spiritual death.  Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death the instant that they disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  They didn't die physically because of that disobedience, at least directly.  They died physically because God kicked them out of the Garden and they were no longer able to eat of the fruit of the tree of life and live forever: Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" Physical death is an integral part of God's physical creation.
yes 4WD . They got kicked out due to disobedience. Yes then they could not no longer eat of the tree of life. Yes and nor could any one born by them. That the entire human race. Death came to all because of Adam and Eves sin. Look around at how many baby’s die , even in the womb. Where is there sin? They die physically before they even stole a smile from us.

A lamb born with a blemish was not accepted by God. We all born, are all born with blemishes not accepted by God.

We all die in body and spirit because of the Sin that Adam did. We are born with defects because of the sin that was passed onto us by Adams’s sin..

I will ask you this question. It’s a if question.

If Adam and Eve had babies in Eden, before they ate of the tree of good and evil....would those babies have been born without blemish?

Would they need glasses and would there be miscarriages in Eden .  No

A lamb with a blemish was not accepted by God.....what did the lamb do ....nothing ....it just wasn’t born to Gods standard.

Nor are we. That is why man only lives to a early age. Sin = Death








Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #62 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 01:11:17 »
Now all then are punished by the sin of Adam as well. Why? Because we was all born outside of Eden.

We can’t eat of the tree of life. We can’t live  forever. So death now comes to all mankind. Dust to dust

So how can a righteous God punish me for a sin that I did not commit ? Why was I punished for a sin that I didn’t even commit?

I should have been born in Eden

.

The simple truth is I am not good . From the day I was conceived

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 01:22:50 »
Did not the curse that Eve got and Adam got spead to all Mankind. Before we sinned we got the punishment

We got all punished because of Adams sin. How can a righteous God allow this to happen. We all are guilty. We have blemishes. The bent and desire to do wrong IS SIN .
He was bruised for our inner sin. Yet to move into transgression. Sins of the heart. Lust after a women etc. Adultery 

Gen 3
16 To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be [e]for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall [f]bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

« Last Edit: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 01:32:22 by Bemark »

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #64 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 02:50:12 »
God is righteous. Everything he does is right.

When God destroyed the earth in the flood and will destroy it again with fire. He is right in doing so.

So when babies die by the command of God , they deserve it. Old men deserve it as well.

The spirit of death came and took the firstborn in the days of Moses.

God was right in his actions. He could order the death of man women and child and oxen. Like he did when he told the Israelites to slaughter whole villages. All , even those in the women’s womb was guilty.

Why ? because all deserved death. Not one was blameless.

Nothing is pure . Except the Lamb Jesus Christ without blemish

God is righteous in all that he does.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #65 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 04:57:15 »
How can a righteous God allow this to happen.
HOW?  Do we even comprehend what righteousness and sinfulness really are?  It is like trying to run a program that needs a super computer on a 1970s 4 banger hand calculator.  What God knows and how He sees things are so far beyond our puny understanding we cannot even begin to see it.

By saying that, we judge God by our own puny understanding and viewpoint.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #66 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 06:18:09 »
We all die in body and spirit because of the Sin that Adam did. We are born with defects because of the sin that was passed onto us by Adams’s sin..
We die in body because that is the way God created the human being; in fact that is the way God created the entire universe.  Nothing physical was created to be forever; not the earth, nor the sun, nor the stars, nor the entire universe and certainly not any plant or animal life.

We die in spirit because of OUR trespasses and sins: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you once walked (Eph 2:1-2).  Our spirits do not come from our parents; but instead come directly from God: The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,....  (Zech 12:1):  And none of that has anything to do with Adam.

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die (Ezek 18:20-21).   In fact you would do well to read and study the entire 18th chapter of Ezekiel.
Quote from: Bemark
I will ask you this question. It’s a if question.

If Adam and Eve had babies in Eden, before they ate of the tree of good and evil....would those babies have been born without blemish?
That is a hypothetical question for which there is no answer. You can speculate about it all you want, but your speculation carries no weight theologically.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 06:30:51 by 4WD »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #67 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 11:29:04 »
Right here is where you went off-the-tracks.

Abraham had a covenant with God, which was indeed passed down.  It was not based on a law.

Israel had a covenant with God, which was mediated by Moses.  It is "the Law," and it is comprised of statutes and judgments.

The Law does not include the Levitical priesthood.  The priesthood was added to the Law because Israel immediately transgressed the Law, and its function was essentially to defer punishment and redeem the guilty.

The book of Hebrews does not confute the two.  Hebrews tells us about the annulment of the Levitical priesthood.  It does not annul the Law.

Jarrod

I agree that the Levitical Priesthood was not part of the Commandments, Statutes, and Laws of God, that it was "ADDED", by covenant with Levi on Israel's behalf, "Till the SEED should come".

I disagree that God's Judgments, or the "Way of the Lord" given by covenant to Abraham, did not consist of God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws. The reason for this is because of what is written.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

And God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes are God's Judgments, YES? They are the "Way of the Lord" are they not?.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isn't this "Way of the Lord" the Land God was going to show Abraham?

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

It seems God also gave Abraham's Children, after they left Egypt, "The Way of the Lord" or God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws and Judgments as well.

I'm not sure, given what is written, how you come to the conclusion that the Covenant God gave Abraham didn't involve the "Way of the Lord" or God's Judgments, Statutes, Laws and commandments.

As for the Levitical Priesthood not being "LAW", Moses certainly considered it so, it seems.

Lev. 7:35 This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;

36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.

37 This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;

38 Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Paul considered it a Law.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

These were repentant, forgiven sinners, YES? How did they become forgiven? By the "Law of the sin offering"? Did the Levite Priest sprinkle Blood on the alter as commanded in the Statures given Specifically to Aaron and his sons, Levites?



Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. (By Law)

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion, given what is written, that the Levitical Priesthood was not an "ADDED" Law that Abraham didn't have.

I truly do enjoy and appreciate your take on many issues. That you make the same separation between the Levitical Priesthood and the Commandments, statutes and Laws of God that both Jesus and Paul made, is a testament to your ability to consider scriptures over religious traditions of men.

It would be helpful if you would produce the scriptures which convinced you that the Covenant of Abraham didn't involve the "Way of the Lord", or God's Judgments, Statutes, Commandments, and Laws.

And also, please provide the Scriptures which convinced you that the Covenant God made with Levi was not "LAW" required for atonement "Till the Seed should come".

Thanks for the reply Jarrod :)





Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13253
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #68 on: Thu Oct 08, 2020 - 12:33:56 »
I disagree that God's Judgments, or the "Way of the Lord" given by covenant to Abraham, did not consist of God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws. The reason for this is because of what is written.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

And God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes are God's Judgments, YES? They are the "Way of the Lord" are they not?.

I'm not sure, given what is written, how you come to the conclusion that the Covenant God gave Abraham didn't involve the "Way of the Lord" or God's Judgments, Statutes, Laws and commandments.
The covenant with Abraham was not based on a written set of statutes that were handed down.  It was based on special revelation - God revealed himself directly to Abraham, told Abraham what to do, and Abraham did it.

Is what God directed him to do consistent with the Law which came later?  Sure, God is consistent like that.  Nonetheless, the covenant is not based on law-keeping, but on Abraham's response to God ("faith").

The end behavior ends up being the same, so it feels a bit like splitting hairs... but Jesus and Peter and Paul all saw fit to split this particular hair, and it turns out to be somewhat of an important distinction.

As for the Levitical Priesthood not being "LAW", Moses certainly considered it so, it seems.

Lev. 7:35 This is the portion of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day when he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office;

36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.

37 This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;

38 Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.

Paul considered it a Law.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

These were repentant, forgiven sinners, YES? How did they become forgiven? By the "Law of the sin offering"? Did the Levite Priest sprinkle Blood on the alter as commanded in the Statures given Specifically to Aaron and his sons, Levites?

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. (By Law) 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion, given what is written, that the Levitical Priesthood was not an "ADDED" Law that Abraham didn't have.
Not all laws are THE LAW. 

Did the Levites receive commands on how to go about their business?  Yes.  Did they have a covenant?  According to Malachi you just quoted... yes.

Were those commandments and that covenant for ALL of Israel?  No.  There is more than one covenant in the Bible.  As you start reading Leviticus it becomes clear right away that there are commands there that were ONLY for the priests.  The directions on how to prepare and offer the sacrifices were not for the fellows from Issachar, Benjamin, or the rest of the tribes (who are specifically prohibited from offering fire).

I think this is true for most of Leviticus.  This book was for the priests; not the people.  There are some things there that touch the regular people (e.g. what constitutes ceremonial uncleanness), but for the most part even this is subservient to the overarching goal of instructing the priests how to discharge their office.

It is therefore not surprising that the laws and covenant of the priests and Levites might come to an end, without THE Law and covenant (which were with all Israel) likewise ending.

Jarrod

Offline Bemark

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 426
  • Manna: 7
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: IS THE LAW OF MOSES STILL IN EFFECT ?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Oct 09, 2020 - 00:10:48 »
Thanks 4WD
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 09, 2020 - 00:37:22 by Bemark »