author=Wycliffes_Shillelagh link=topic=107054.msg1055172672#msg1055172672 date=1602262876]
It's about the positive commandment more than any negative ones. Abraham's response to "get thee out of your father's house and go to a land that I will show you" is the foundation of Abraham's covenant. Is that commandment part of The Law?
I would say "repentance" is certainly a part of the Law. What is repentance if it isn't "denying ourselves and following God".
Surly Abraham was asked to "change" his way or his traditions, and "Turn" to God with all his heart. Is this not repentance, and also required by Law?
Ex. 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of
, thy fathers house, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
What is the real difference between;
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people
unto him with his disciples also
, he said unto them, Whosoever
will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Doesn't Paul teach Gentiles the exact same Gospel?
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first
unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles
, that they should repent
and turn to God
, and do works meet for repentance
How is this instruction any different than God's instruction to Abraham, or to Abraham's Children, or from Jesus to us?
The Mind of Christ exists from eternity to eternity. Certainly God has "His Way."
Certainly HE does. And "EVERY" example of faith in the Bible repented from their own way, and submitting to "God's Way".
There is a difference between following the "Good works" God before ordained that we should walk in, and slipping up, and following a religious path that causes the followers to transgress the Commandment of God by their religious traditions.
For me, this is exemplified by the contrast between Zacharias and Simeon, who walked in the "Way of the Lord" and the Pharisees and scribes, who didn't.
Nonetheless, statutes are a poor expression of the Mind of Christ. I will illustrate... If we are in Christ we have an idea of the value of human life, and an understanding that just as we cannot give it, we should not take it. "Thou shalt not kill" is just a dumbed-down and condensed version of that.
I see the point you are making. But God didn't just teach "thou shall not kill" and walk away. He also taught not a hold a grudge, not to hate a brother in our heart, not to "vex the stranger", and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Christ referred us back to these Word's over and over again.
In fact, from my perspective according to scriptures, these "Statutes" were so important that God Himself promised to write them on the hearts of His People.
Even Paul seems to agree on this.
Ph. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself
, and became obedient unto death
, even the death of the cross.
Are we all not to follow his example and "Endure to the end" even as Abraham did?
Abraham didn't need the Cliff's-notes-version of the Mind of Christ. He already had the full idea, and agreed with it.
The difference between faith and obedience is razor thin.
I do agree with you that Abraham did have the Mind of Christ. I'm not so sure that there is any difference between trusting God enough to obey Him and trusting God enough to have Faith in Him..
That is an interesting concept, I'll have to think about that one for a bit.
My view is that the Levitical priesthood functioned primarily for the purpose of delaying punishment. Israel failed to keep their covenant literally from the first moment possible (the golden calf incident). The priesthood was therefore added to the Law to prevent Israel from being instantly destroyed.
That is a good way to say it. I never really thought of it like that. It's too bad Levi had to depart out of the way and corrupt the Covenant God made with him. Then they could have just handed the Priesthood over to Jesus when He came, as did that faithful Levite John the Baptist.
The whole system of sacrifices is designed to transmit guilt. The people put their sins on the animals which are eaten by the priests. The priests have their own sacrifices for the effect of transmitting all the guilt onto the high priest. The high priest then makes a single annual sacrifice bringing effectively ALL of the sins of the nation before God in one go.
I think we're saying basically the same thing here?
I agree, The Pharisees gained their power, not by the commandments, Statutes, and Laws of God, but by their version of the Levitical Priesthood which was given specifically to the Tribe of Levi by Law. When the prophesied Messiah came, and fulfilled His Prophesy of Jer. 31, their power was gone.
Disagree. Saul explicitly lost standing because he disobeyed, taking the possessions of the Amalekites he was ordered to destroy.
1 Sam. 13:8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.
9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.
10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue
: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.
Saul offered the Sacrifice which was unlawful for him to do. This is when HE lost his kingdom. He could have redeemed himself with Agag, but continued in disobedience. He remained the King for some time after this, but there was no repentance given him.
Note that his successor, David, executed priestly functions without blame. David entered the holy place, and ate the shewbread, and directly acted as a mediator between God and Israel. Part of the birthright of the king of Israel is a priestly office. This is the meaning of "Melchizedek priesthood." It is a separate thing from the Levitical priesthood, but it is a priesthood nonetheless.
To be fair, David did not request the showbread. It was offered to him by the Levite Priest
1 Sam. 21: 2 And David said unto Ahimelech the priest, The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know any thing of the business whereabout I send thee, and what I have commanded thee: and I have appointed my servants to such and such a place.
3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.
4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.
6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.
I'm not sure where you get the teaching that David executed Priestly functions. He went to the Levite Priest and followed his instruction when he got hungry. Would David not also pull the donkey out of the pit on the Sabbath?
I'm afraid I can't agree with your understanding on this one.
No, he didn't become the high priest of the Levitical priesthood. He had a claim as a priest via a different priesthood - the Melchizedek priesthood mentioned above.
I never said HE became a Levite Priest, I believe HE took over the Priesthood duties as Prophesied. After the order of Melchizedek, not after Aaron.
There is a lot of garbage theology out there. Churches tend to pile that stuff on. I think what most people need is for theology to be simplified, perhaps brought back to an earlier state.
I agree with you on this. Maybe men should be more careful to trust the Holy Scriptures instead of all the doctrines and commandments of men.
I do enjoy these conversations with you, and your take. I think it is important to have these discussions among men.
Mal. 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.