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HOW?  Do we even comprehend what righteousness and sinfulness really are?  It is like trying to run a program that needs a super computer on a 1970s 4 banger hand calculator.  What God knows and how He sees things are so far beyond our puny understanding we cannot even begin to see it.

By saying that, we judge God by our own puny understanding and viewpoint.

Hi DaveW....not meaning to not answer you. Just really can handle a few mental math problems at a time. Machines I can multitask on.

I agree as in , who is Job to complain to God About this and that. I get that. I am not even upset by it. He is just in all that he does.

My point was this. Can a righteous God punish those who are innocent of any crime? He can because he is God. But does that go against his nature that we know off. Recorded in the Bible?



My answer would be no as

Psalm 89:14
New King James Version
14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne;
Mercy and truth go before Your face.

Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through [d]one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one[e] Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

So here we have it. I pay the price because of 1  mans offense. I am judged as in ALL mankind. Why ? ....not my own sin but ADAMS sin.

Well I look at it like this ...I am sin......he became sin.

Judgement as in righteous judgement can only be passed down on the guilty

In Adam before I was born I was guilty.

A righteous God can order the death of the so called innocent. Why? They, we are sinful even before we all was born

Because we are all guilty as we are in Adam . Born from him. The knowledge of evil was in us

When we receive him we become Reborn again by Christ and deemed righteous . Not by our  act but his.


I’m working though this stuff trying to figure it out.

Bless you may brothers and sisters who has patience . It’s a fruit of the spirit .

Your post truly shows just how confused you are~maybe you should reconsider your understanding, for it shows me that you do not understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. We could write many pages on on this subject but will start out with only a few words, and go from there.

1. We are made righteous by the obedience of Christ is a truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that cannot be disputed. The things are spoken of are opposites, and their effects are direct contraries. Now, the opposite of disobedience, is not suffering punishment, or a penal death. But obedience to the commands of the Law is the opposite of disobedience. And, therefore, it is not Christ’s Sufferings and Death, which Paul opposes to Adam’s disobedience; but his active obedience to the Law’s Precepts. The effect of Adam’s disobedience, is guiltiness, or we are made sinners, i.e. guilty thereby. And the effect of Christ’s obedience is the contrary to that of Adam’s Disobedience, we are made righteous, or constituted such, by that, and not by what he suffered for us. THEREFORE, we must conclude, that the active obedience of our blessed Savior, is imputed to us, in order to our Justification, before God. His death would have been in vain if he was not the Lamb of God without spot or blemish.

2. One more for now. Christ came under the Law for our sakes, in the character of our Surety~ and, therefore, he obeyed it for us, as well as suffered its curse, on our accounts. His sponsor, or, you can say his undertaking, in the Covenant of Grace, was the ground of his coming under the obligation of the Covenant of Works. And, without that, he had never been in subjection to the first Covenant. By a sovereign appointment of God, with his own consent, as our Surety, he was made under the Law, in order to redeem us from it. Now what he acted, in that character, as well as what he suffered, therein, was for us, and is placed to our account. Since, therefore, he yielded obedience to the Law, in the character of our Surety, as he suffered its curse, in that character, his active obedience, was for us, no less than his death. And it is placed to our account, or imputed to us. The reason is the same, for the imputation of what he did, as for the imputation of what he suffered, viz. His coming under the obligation of the Covenant of Works, as our Surety. And, therefore, his fulfilling the righteousness of the Law, was for us, and is reckoned to us, as his suffering its penal Sanction was for us, and is reckoned unto us. Consequently, his active obedience is ours and was yielded by him for us, with a view to our justification.

More later......RB

Choir Loft~I'll finish my points only IF you will come back and answer my posts to you as I finish, if not~then I'll move on to something else.

This is the time saints ,,,,throw out your net again. Be friendly. Give according to your wealth and help those who are suffering. The Lord is with you . Cast out your net again . Give him the glory.

The covenant with Abraham was not based on a written set of statutes that were handed down.  It was based on special revelation - God revealed himself directly to Abraham, told Abraham what to do, and Abraham did it.

I appreciate what you are saying, but God telling a person not the steal, or writing a person a letter telling them not to steal is the same isn't it? Consider one reason why God said HE revealed Himself to Abraham.

Gen. 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

It seems the very reason why God chose Abraham is because Abraham respected HIS instructions enough to keep them himself, and  pass them on to his children.

Is what God directed him to do consistent with the Law which came later?  Sure, God is consistent like that.  Nonetheless, the covenant is not based on law-keeping, but on Abraham's response to God ("faith").

I disagree that God's LAWs, Judgments, Statutes and commandments "came later". They were written down later, but God would certainly have had HIS judgments or "His Way" long before He even created man.

And Scripturally speaking, Abraham's response to God was obedience. As was Noah's, and Caleb, and Gideon, and Zachrias, and Simeon, in fact, all the examples of Faith given in the examples written for our admonition. Is this not why God Revealed Himself to these men in the first place? (John 14:21)

The end behavior ends up being the same, so it feels a bit like splitting hairs... but Jesus and Peter and Paul all saw fit to split this particular hair, and it turns out to be somewhat of an important distinction.

In what way? I mean it is obvious that both Jesus and Paul didn't continue in the "Works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood. Jesus walked in "The Law", but also forgave sins without ever performing the sacrificial "works of the law" as provided for in the Levitical Priesthood. In what way did they split oral commandments of God from written commandments of God? I understand that according to the "letter" men died who transgressed God's Laws. That there was no "Law" which can give life. But there is still the "Way of the Lord" given by God that both Abraham and Moses, and Jesus as well, promoted and walked in. And Jesus did say we are Abraham's Children, which means we are heirs to the Promise, if we "do the works of Abraham", who also didn't have the Levitical Priesthood to atone for his sin. He was Justified "apart" from the Law of Justification.

Paul was even still following the Commandment regarding Oxen, (For our sake's it is written) but did not continue to take or promote taking a turtle dove to the Levite for atonement, as per the Covenant of the Levitical Priesthood..

Not all laws are THE LAW. 

Did the Levites receive commands on how to go about their business?  Yes.  Did they have a covenant?  According to Malachi you just quoted... yes.

Were those commandments and that covenant for ALL of Israel?  No.   

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make on this forum since I got here.

Did God separate Levi from all the peoples of the world and give him a covenant on Israel's behalf? And what was the purpose of this "Levitical Priesthood"?

Was it not to provide for the Administration of God's Commandments, Statutes, and Laws? Was it not to provide for the Atonement of transgressions of these Laws "till the seed should come" fulfilling the Promise of God to provide for atonement himself?

I mean surely God knew HE would be coming to earth as a man and provide for these things Himself, even before HE Separated Levi from the inheritance of Israel. So these "works of the Law" were temporary from their beginning, Yes? But not God's Commandments, Statutes, Judgments and Laws Abraham and His children lived by.

So when God himself, the Creator of the new Covenant, defined HIS New Covenant, here is what HE said.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Notice HE said HE would put "The Law" in the minds of HIS People. No abolition, no setting aside, no redefinition. God's Commandments, Statutes Judgments and Laws, that Abraham commanded His Children to walk in, that God wrote down and gave to Israel, will now, in the New covenant, be written on the minds of His People.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And the manner in which transgressions of this "LAW" are forgiven was also promised to change. No more "Law of the sin offering" requiring a Levite to sprinkle goats blood on the alter. No more sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification. God Himself will become the High Priest and Provide for the Priesthood duty of atonement Himself.

 There is more than one covenant in the Bible.  As you start reading Leviticus it becomes clear right away that there are commands there that were ONLY for the priests.  The directions on how to prepare and offer the sacrifices were not for the fellows from Issachar, Benjamin, or the rest of the tribes (who are specifically prohibited from offering fire).

Absolutely!!!!, That is exactly what the Holy scriptures teach. "Commands only for the Levite Priest" that Israel was forbidden to perform. "Commands that were "ADDED" to God's Laws, because of Transgressions of God's Laws. Commands Abraham was not subject to, "ADDED" until the prophesied 430 yrs., "after those days" come, in which God Himself would take over these duties. (SEED shall come) King Saul lost his standing with God, in part, because he took on these exclusive Priesthood Duties himself.

This is the Covenant which became "obsolete", not God's Commandments, Statutes, Laws and Judgments.

I think this is true for most of Leviticus.  This book was for the priests; not the people.  There are some things there that touch the regular people (e.g. what constitutes ceremonial uncleanness), but for the most part even this is subservient to the overarching goal of instructing the priests how to discharge their office.

It is therefore not surprising that the laws and covenant of the priests and Levites might come to an end, without THE Law and covenant (which were with all Israel) likewise ending.

Jarrod

Yes, absolutely. According to the Creator of the New Covenant, only the Priesthood Covenant with Levi changed. That is;

#1. How God's Laws are administered.

#2. How Transgression of these Laws are atoned for.

This is why, in my view, Jesus the Christ instructed His New Church to wait and gather on one of His Holy Feasts, but didn't instruct them to engage the Levite Priests.

He had become the High Priest.

I can't tell you how refreshing it is to converse with someone who has seen through much of the prophesied "religious philosophies of men", and can "SEE" the division between the Levitical Priesthood, and the "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

Thanks for the discussion Jarrod, these are good topics for men to engage in, in these evil times, in my view.

:)



 

And I submit that writing them down was NOT God's first choice.  It was acquiescence to mankind's fear:

 Exodus 20:18-20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.”

Maybe, but there is a natural progression symbolized here it seems. First we "Hear" of the Creator God of the Bible, then we "Read" what HE had written for our admonition, then what is written is ingrained in the minds of those who believe in Him. This certainly would describe the journey of Caleb, an example of true Faith.

Also, there is the matter of the "other voice". It seems the Creator God of the Bible wants people to "Choose" to walk in the "Way of the Lord". But in order to have a choice, there must also be "Another Way" to choose from.

This would explain why God had an Egypt in the first place, much in the same way Eve had the serpent, and the New converts in the NT had the mainstream religions of their time. There is God's Way, written down for our admonition, and there is "another way" promoted by "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord. Just as Abraham was given the choice to either remain in the ways of his father, or "Deny" himself, and follow the "way of the Lord", so we also are given this choice, to test us to see if we will choose God, or religious philosophies of men who teach us all "thou shall surely not die".

It is a fascinating study that flows through the entire Bible like a river.

This is why Paul placed such importance on the Holy Scriptures in my view.

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

author=Wycliffes_Shillelagh link=topic=107054.msg1055172672#msg1055172672 date=1602262876]
It's about the positive commandment more than any negative ones.  Abraham's response to "get thee out of your father's house and go to a land that I will show you" is the foundation of Abraham's covenant.  Is that commandment part of The Law?

I would say "repentance" is certainly a part of the Law. What is repentance if it isn't "denying ourselves and following God".

Surly Abraham was asked to "change" his way or his traditions, and "Turn" to God with all his heart. Is this not repentance, and also required by Law?


Ex. 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, thy fathers house, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


What is the real difference between;

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And;

Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

And;

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Doesn't Paul teach Gentiles the exact same Gospel?

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

How is this instruction any different than God's instruction to Abraham, or to Abraham's Children, or from Jesus to us?

The Mind of Christ exists from eternity to eternity.  Certainly God has "His Way."

Certainly HE does. And "EVERY" example of faith in the Bible repented from their own way, and submitting to "God's Way".

There is a difference between following the "Good works" God before ordained that we should walk in, and slipping up, and following a religious path that causes the followers to transgress the Commandment of God by their religious traditions.

For me, this is exemplified by the contrast between Zacharias and Simeon, who walked in the "Way of the Lord" and the Pharisees and scribes, who didn't.

Nonetheless, statutes are a poor expression of the Mind of Christ.  I will illustrate... If we are in Christ we have an idea of the value of human life, and an understanding that just as we cannot give it, we should not take it.  "Thou shalt not kill" is just a dumbed-down and condensed version of that.

I see the point you are making. But God didn't just teach "thou shall not kill" and walk away. He also taught not a hold a grudge, not to hate a brother in our heart, not to "vex the stranger", and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Christ referred us back to these Word's over and over again.

In fact, from my perspective according to scriptures, these "Statutes" were so important that God Himself promised to write them on the hearts of His People.

Even Paul seems to agree on this.

Ph. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Are we all not to follow his example and "Endure to the end" even as Abraham did?

Abraham didn't need the Cliff's-notes-version of the Mind of Christ.  He already had the full idea, and agreed with it.
The difference between faith and obedience is razor thin.

I do agree with you that Abraham did have the Mind of Christ. I'm not so sure that there is any difference between trusting God enough to obey Him and trusting God enough to have Faith in Him..

That is an interesting concept, I'll have to think about that one for a bit.

My view is that the Levitical priesthood functioned primarily for the purpose of delaying punishment.  Israel failed to keep their covenant literally from the first moment possible (the golden calf incident).  The priesthood was therefore added to the Law to prevent Israel from being instantly destroyed.

That is a good way to say it. I never really thought of it like that. It's too bad Levi had to depart out of the way and corrupt the Covenant God made with him. Then they could have just handed the Priesthood over to Jesus when He came, as did that faithful Levite John the Baptist.

The whole system of sacrifices is designed to transmit guilt.  The people put their sins on the animals which are eaten by the priests.  The priests have their own sacrifices for the effect of transmitting all the guilt onto the high priest.  The high priest then makes a single annual sacrifice bringing effectively ALL of the sins of the nation before God in one go.
I think we're saying basically the same thing here?

I agree, The Pharisees gained their power, not by the commandments, Statutes, and Laws of God, but by their version of the Levitical Priesthood which was given specifically to the Tribe of Levi by Law. When the prophesied Messiah came, and fulfilled His Prophesy of Jer. 31, their power was gone.

Disagree.  Saul explicitly lost standing because he disobeyed, taking the possessions of the Amalekites he was ordered to destroy.

1 Sam. 13:8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.

9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.

10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.

11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;

12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

Saul offered the Sacrifice which was unlawful for him to do. This is when HE lost his kingdom. He could have redeemed himself with Agag, but continued in disobedience. He remained the King for some time after this, but there was no repentance given him.

Note that his successor, David, executed priestly functions without blame.  David entered the holy place, and ate the shewbread, and directly acted as a mediator between God and Israel.  Part of the birthright of the king of Israel is a priestly office.  This is the meaning of "Melchizedek priesthood."  It is a separate thing from the Levitical priesthood, but it is a priesthood nonetheless.

To be fair, David did not request the showbread. It was offered to him by the Levite Priest


1 Sam. 21: 2 And David said unto Ahimelech the priest, The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know any thing of the business whereabout I send thee, and what I have commanded thee: and I have appointed my servants to such and such a place.

3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.

4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.

5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.

6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.

I'm not sure where you get the teaching that David executed Priestly functions. He went to the Levite Priest and followed his instruction when he got hungry. Would David not also pull the donkey out of the pit on the Sabbath?

I'm afraid I can't agree with your understanding on this one.

No, he didn't become the high priest of the Levitical priesthood.  He had a claim as a priest via a different priesthood - the Melchizedek priesthood mentioned above.

I never said HE became a Levite Priest, I believe HE took over the Priesthood duties as Prophesied. After the order of  Melchizedek, not after Aaron.

There is a lot of garbage theology out there.  Churches tend to pile that stuff on.  I think what most people need is for theology to be simplified, perhaps brought back to an earlier state.

Jarrod

I agree with you on this. Maybe men should be more careful to trust the Holy Scriptures instead of all the doctrines and commandments of men.

I do enjoy these conversations with you, and your take. I think it is important to have these discussions among men.

Mal. 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Thanks Jarrod,

The guy that started this thread, as usual, has long gone, he never stays very long once he starts one~and very seldom contribute much even after he starts them.

So, let me ask GB to answer these two questions, so we can cut through the mustard or any other synonyms one can use to get to the bottom line of what one truly believes concerning:

IS  THE LAW OF  MOSES STILL IN  EFFECT?

So, GB, please tell any who many read your position by answering these two questions:

1. In what manner are we under the law of God? In a few words clearly state your position.

2. In what manner are those who look to Jesus Christ as their surety before the Law of God are NOT under the law of God? Any other person can answer these two questions. I have already in this thread beginning at the very first reply.

author=RB link=topic=107054.msg1055172705#msg1055172705 date=1602320153]
 
So, let me ask GB to answer these two questions, so we can cut through the mustard or any other synonyms one can use to get to the bottom line of what one truly believes concerning: So, GB, please tell any who many read your position by answering these two questions:

First, you have made it abundantly clear that you are not interested in any other opinion or scriptural view than your own, and certainly not mine.

But for those who may be reading along, I am glad to answer for my Faith.

1. In what manner are we under the law of God? In a few words clearly state your position.

Let's say I have spent many years following a religion that transgresses the commandments of God by their own religious traditions. Like the Jews and Gentiles in Jesus Time did. A religion which creates it's own high days, it's own religious traditions, and rejects, pollutes, despises and preaches against God's definition of Holy, Just, Good and clean. A religion who creates images of God, or religious symbols, contrary to the Commandment of God which forbids idolatry. And let's say the reason why I followed this religion is because I believed the web sites, books and videos given by self proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" to teach me about this religion. A religion in which I served those who are not gods.


But one day I actually read the scriptures for myself, as Paul instructs, and I find that all these practices of iniquity are forbidden by the Christ of the Bible, and the wages of such iniquity is death, I find my self "under the Law" of God, being "DEAD" wherein I am held.

My goodness, what shall I do. I have religious men, who come in Christ's name, telling me "You shall surely not die", but I have Jesus telling me "Depart from Me, you who work iniquity?

I have self proclaimed ministers of righteousness telling me God's Instructions are no longer valid, but I have Jesus telling me "If you want to enter eternal life, keep the Commandments".

I have self exalted preachers telling me, "Nothing you do can save you", but Jesus telling me "Unless you likewise repent, you shall also perish".

So I have a choice to make here. I have to choose between the instructions of the Christ of the Bible, rejected by the vast majority of humans, or the Instructions of the popular religious philosophies of men, followed by the masses.

But as I keep reading, I see where Jesus has paid the death penalty I earned by following the religious philosophies of men. I have been freed from the death iniquity caused me. I am set free from sin and death, and the hold it had on me.

I found out I am "Free" to serve another. I am not bound to the religious traditions of men and the beggarly Elements of the religions of the world. I no longer have to be a slave to sin and death, I can become a servant of God's Righteousness.

So I repent with all my heart, as instructed. I follow the Path that God ordained beforehand that I should walk in them, the Path I see Jesus walked in. I place all my trust and Faith in the Word of God which became Flesh. I am no longer "Under the Law", but free to serve God/Christ how HE instructs. Purchased by HIS Blood, "bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

So how can I be brought back "under the law"? If I forget Who saved me, and Who shed His Blood for me, and return to the popular religious doctrines, traditions and philosophies of men I was born into.

Paul sums it up best.

Gal. 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

I will not bring myself back under the Law, though there is pressure to do so. I will mirror Paul.

Rom. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Where God writes His Laws) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh (that no longer guides me)  the law of sin.

 There you go Red, my position.

I can become a servant of God's Righteousness.

What does that even mean and how can you do that?  What is a servant of God's righteousness?

Bemark, God said that He formed your spirit in you (Zech 12:1).  Do you really believe the spirit God formed in you was a dead spirit, dead in Adam's trespasses and sins?  I certainly hope not.  You said, "I was in Adam".  What does that even mean?  It can only mean that you are physically a descendent of Adam. However you are spiritually a descendent of God. God said that he made man in His own image (Gen 1:26-27; Gen 5:1; Gen 9:6).  God is spirit (John 4:24). Clearly that image is only the spirit because God is Spirit.  That spirit is alive until you sin.  God does not charge you or anyone else for the sins of another, including the sins of Adam (Ezek 18):  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die (v.4).

Hi 4WD

Even Paul was amazed by those who didn’t even have the law still died. How could they be judged with out the law.

Because it came into world through Adam. People still died. God even destroyed nearly the whole world without the Law of Moses. The flood.




Romans 5.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.



20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4WD I believe that only by Christ’s work can one  be saved . All are born in darkness as in the kingdom of darkness, separated from God eternally.


I sort of see us as like a rechargeable battery. But we are dead or flat. Jesus Christ is the power lead plugged into Father God. He is the transformer so we don’t fry and we can be transformed. He reconciles us back to him. Translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

We all are born or made with human hands. Born descendants from Adam after he was thrown out of the garden and had received the knowledge of evil.  . Adam was made with Gods hands so was perfect . We will get a body made with Gods hands when we die. A body without the knowledge of evil and decay. Until then all descendants from Adam have been born with the knowledge of evil. Inequity . Sin. We are born with blemishes. None is right before Gods holiness. Christ can only make us right by his blood.

So a battery that needs to be charged. Born a flat battery separated from the Life of God. I call it flat

Now the soul who sins shall die....this is even with a born again believer. A believer who is plugged in and has the wire ( Christ ) attached , but lukewarm.

There fire has gone out. There soul is dead. Flat. No life of God  etc etc

They just have to flick the switch and eat and drink from him again , receive that eternal life from the one who lives forever.

A battery needs to be charged daily to be of any use in a world,  that tries to take your soul and leave you dry and weary..dead in your trespasses .

First, you have made it abundantly clear that you are not interested in any other opinion or scriptural view than your own, and certainly not mine.

Your statement is not true~first, I truly read and listen carefully to all voices I encounter and test them as I'm exhorted to do by the scriptures. Secondly, are you saying that you ARE interested in other opinions or scriptural views than your own? While others are not? That's a prideful statement~I do give others the benefit of my doubts so as not to over judge another person's lack of sincerity.

But for those who may be reading along, I am glad to answer for my Faith..................There you go Red, my position

You do not follow very well question given to you~I asked for you two simple questions which you never answered directly.

So, GB, please tell any who many read your position by answering these two questions:

1. In what manner are we under the law of God? In a few words clearly state your position.

2. In what manner are those who look to Jesus Christ as their surety before the Law of God are NOT under the law of God? Any other person can answer these two questions. I have already in this thread beginning at the very first reply.

As to the first question, where  did you DIRECTLY answer my question? Well, let me help you out~ NOWHERE! All I see in your post is "I"~would you like for me to point them out? Let me know. Second question and the "clincher":

2. In what manner are those who look to Jesus Christ as their surety before the Law of God are NOT under the law of God?

You did not even attempt to answer that question and for good reasons, YOU CANNOT. Would you like to try this again? Or, would you like me to answer them? I would be very precise in doing so.

Also the battery has to be put in a battery charger.

You have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light

We also then got a new father . Father God

The battery IS put in charged. WE drain it quickly. Yes we must connect to the charger to RECHARGE over and over. God’s batteries come fully charged and perfect as 4WD says, NOT DEAD.

Here we ave King David repenting of the sins but also the inequity that was in him and in verse 5 also speaking out that he was brought forth in inequity . Not a perfect battery

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

51 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just [a]when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10

Yes David ran his battery down by his sin and needs to be connected back into the charger.

God not Adam put our perfect and charged battery in us. WE deplete the charge by our sin. We must RE-connect..

My iPad is doing these bold words again .....?