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Author Topic: Is the word rapture biblical?  (Read 2172 times)

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Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:57:12 »
I'm going to stick with the words inside my Bible.

The word clouds is not singular in the context to verses about the rapture, at least not in the King James version. Also, the Bible says we will be caught up to be with Jesus in clouds in the air. The verse literally says this word for word. The text does not say that we will be meeting Jesus on the earth or on the ground.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:57:12 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:32:41 »
I'm going to stick with the words inside my Bible.

The word clouds is not singular in the context to verses about the rapture, at least not in the King James version. Also, the Bible says we will be caught up to be with Jesus in clouds in the air. The verse literally says this word for word. The text does not say that we will be meeting Jesus on the earth or on the ground.
Please show me the Greek word translated 'UP.'

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:32:41 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:51:45 »
There are several words for RAPTURE but when Jesus comes back for us the idea is that we will just RISE into the air and not RAPED or YANKED violently.

The ANTITHESIS is the almost universal pagan idea of being "Heavy Laden" meaning "Spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonial."  In Romans 15 Paul outlaws SELF PLEASURE which means "creation of mental anxiety" which makes speaking the WORD for confession and learning impossible. The Word Ariskos is the HERESY word of someone "Lifting you up with mental arousal so they can CHOOSE to carry you or your property away for their own use."  I have been RAPTURED out of three of my investments with the Lord.

False churches use sound, motion, lights or odors to "LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD" as the object of any kind of music.

The Literature is filled with many forms of RAPTURE. Pan below uses his panpipes to "cause PANice to carry you away."

Soph. Aj. 693
Chorus
I shiver with RAPTURE; I soar on the wings of sudden joy! [695] O Pan, O Pan, appear to us, sea-rover, from the stony ridge of snow-beaten Cyllene. King, dancemaker for the gods, come, so that joining with us you may set on the Nysian and the Cnosian steps, [700] your self-taught dances. Now I want to dance. And may Apollon, lord of Delos, step over the Icarian sea [705] and join me in his divine form, in eternal benevolence!


Two of the THOUGHT LEADERS Calls the Holy Spirit God's song writer and dance master..

Apollōn , ho, Apollo: Sun God, leader of the LOCUSTS or muses:

Soph. Trach. 209 Chorus

Girls who are brides to be, come, sing in triumph
with shouts, wild shouts of joy for our hearth and home;
and let the voices of men be one
with ours in prayer to the archer-god
Apollon, our defender!
Then,
210 maidens, raise the paean aloft

(Paean song of triumph, any solemn song or chant." "Paeon" was also the name of a divine physician and an epithet of Apollo)

and cry to his sister
Ortygian Artemis, wielder of torches, slayer of deer,
and the nymphs of the neighboring hills.
I am raised on high, I will not reject
the cry of the flute: thou tyrant of mind and soul!
Behold me: the ivy -
euoi! -
220 goads me to frenzy and whirls me
round in the strife [wrath, orgy]  of Bacchus!
Io io Paean!
My lady, behold,
behold, you may clearly see these things
are taking place before you.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:51:45 »

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 18:03:10 »
Please show me the Greek word translated 'UP.'

The word up in Greek is translated to "up", or "until, up". If you insist that Thessalonians 4:17 is incorrect, or at least that the King James Version is incorrect when it says that we will rise (which means to come up, or go up from a lower position) and meet Jesus in the clouds (which are also up in the air), then we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 18:03:10 »
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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 14:30:36 »
The word up in Greek is translated to "up", or "until, up". If you insist that Thessalonians 4:17 is incorrect, or at least that the King James Version is incorrect when it says that we will rise (which means to come up, or go up from a lower position) and meet Jesus in the clouds (which are also up in the air), then we'll have to agree to disagree.
The word in Greek is ἁρπάζω, and it means "to seize something by force and carry it away."  It has nothing to do with the direction.

The prior verse uses the word rise, but again in Greek that's ἀνίστημι, which means "to move from a laying position to a standing position."  It refers to resurrection, insofar as the corpse is laying prior to being re-animated.  It does not refer to flying or floating.

The King James isn't wrong in its translation.  But the words today don't mean the same things they did in the 17th century, so people misunderstand them.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 14:30:36 »



Offline Norton

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:53:56 »
Y'all are missing the point of the cloud.

In the Old Testament, when God met with Moses He cloaked Himself in a cloud.  At Jesus ascension, He ascended in a cloud.  He is meant to return "in the same way."  The point of the cloud is not that we are going UP.  The point of the cloud is that He is God, and this is how he rolls.
They don't.  UP doesn't appear in Greek.  The cloud descends to the ground.
Good point that makes good sense.  And, the saved will meet the King as he draws near to earth to escort him to earth. It was and is customary for the citizens to meet a king or other high dignitary as he approaches a city, or lands at the airport.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:59:43 by Norton »

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:53:56 »

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Jul 26, 2018 - 16:04:13 »
Y'all are missing the point of the cloud.

In the Old Testament, when God met with Moses He cloaked Himself in a cloud.  At Jesus ascension, He ascended in a cloud.  He is meant to return "in the same way."  The point of the cloud is not that we are going UP.  The point of the cloud is that He is God, and this is how he rolls.
They don't.  UP doesn't appear in Greek.  The cloud descends to the ground.

Why do you continue to say that up doesn't appear in Greek? There are many translators on the internet for you to research and realize that this isn't true.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 07:28:15 »
LaSpino3:

   I’ve read what you have posted, and I think I understand where you’re coming from. Yet the modern-day Rapture dogma, as publicized today, is still questionable. I’ll try to clarify. I think it wise that we first identify the doctrine’s composition.

   1) “Rapture” is not found in any of our oldest Greek manuscripts. It has its origin in the Latin word “rapere,” which means to “take away,” “snatch out,” or “to seize.” We must not call “rapture” a biblical term for there is no Greek word that translates it.

  2) The idea is that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died.

   3) If you are on the roof of your house, or riding horseback, or in your car on a busy highway, or in bed with your spouse, you will be “snatched” or “caught up”—disappear all of a sudden. Your unregenerate friends and relatives will be amazed at your sudden disappearance. Cars will crash without drivers; planes will fall without pilots.

   4) At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church” and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence.

   Does this sound like something you’ve never heard before? If yes, it is because you’ve never read it before—at least not in the scriptures. The scriptures used to support the “Rapture” are 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17, where Paul deals with the Lord’s return. Revelation, chapters 4-5, are supposed to capture the heavenly scene, and the 7-year “Tribulation” period, which follows the “snatching up,” is described in Revelation, chapters 4-19—or so allege the “Rapture” defenders.

   Now read me carefully. If 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 do not teach the “Rapture” creed, the entire core of the screenplay collapses. We agree that when Jesus returns, He will bring with him “those who have fallen asleep” (v.14). Furthermore, we concur that when He makes His second advent, He will “snatch up” those of us still living “to meet the Lord in the air” (v.17).

   It is agreed further that those of us still living will not precede or go ahead of those who have died (v.15). We will be caught up together with departed saints, after they have been resurrected from their paradise abode. These saints will accompany Jesus (“God will bring with Jesus,” v.14) as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive.

   This is where the agreement ends. Premillennial advocates have Jesus descending twice, once to “rapture” saints and once more when He returns with them to put an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon,” followed by a thousand-year earthly government.

   In this matter, they select a few highly symbolic passages from the Book of Revelation, tie them in with the Thessalonian verses, and the “Rapture stage” is ready to perform. Nowhere in the Thessalonian verses is it remotely implied that Jesus will descend twice more. Please keep that idea in mind as we examine this dramatic creed. For if, as stated earlier, these verses fail to advance the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside.

   It is wise to remember that nowhere in scripture is it taught, or remotely indicated, that Jesus will personally and visibly return twice more. His second advent is alluded to time after time, but never a third advent. Nor do the scriptures speak of saints ascending into heaven twice, once at the so-called “Rapture,” and once again “when the thousand years are over,” as the doctrine is advocated.

Goodnight,

Buff

There remains the matter of consistent and constant walking in the promises of Christ both Biblical and personal....
to the end that one is delivered THRU the troubles of life rather than evacuated FROM them.

The unofficial evangelical doctrine of rapture denies the efficacy if not the context of Biblical teaching on the sanctification of the believer via the refiners' fire - trials of life.   Instead of being absolved and purified the Christian becomes airborne and is served an in-flight meal.   Really?   This is supposed to be sane doctrine? 

There are also points of racial and religious bigotry to be considered.  

No Jew is allowed to participate - only American Protestants.   Pretty much most Roman Catholics (the Holy See for sure), all of the various divisions of the Eastern Orthodox church as well as smaller groups such as Coptics, Swedenborgianism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Quakers and the rest of a list too long to include here are all denied flight status on Rapture Airlines.  The depth and breadth of rapture exclusivism is hideous.

It's an American invention - this rapturism.

To my knowledge no other nation embraces rapture dogma to the extent of rabid fanaticism observed in the American church.  Several years ago a conclave of South African churches expunged the rapture doctrine from all references spoken and printed because they agreed it was divisive, lacking in efficacy to the normal Christian life and opposed to the general Biblical theme of confidence in God's ability to resolve all of life's difficulties in life and upon earth.

Rapture fanatics deny physical evidence.

Every so often some astronomical alignment will stir the blood of conspiracy theorists - and rapture fanatics.   Either space aliens or holy angles are coming to get us.  Pick your fan group, they're all the same.  Elvis might be there - directing an ethereal choir as they ascend.  The collapse of the American political system evidences similar inspiration, but seemingly not as great as that of lights in the sky.  Ronald Reagan will be present during the mass ascension, shaking hands and beaming his best welcome smile.

Recent Blood Moon sequences have provided a great deal of material for those pompous souls who imagine themselves prophets.  They hear and see rare alignments in the heavens and believe their extradition from earth to the realm of paradise is imminent.  When the alignment passes they are still among us.   Instead of learning from their mistake they look to the next occurrence and continue to vomit their venomous assertions for all to see and hear.  These sad gullible souls are of all men most to be pitied.  They know not of what they speak. 

Case in point is Friday July 27th.  On this date another Blood Moon will be observed in certain areas of the world.   It will be accompanied by the planet Mars at two degrees distance in the five o'clock position.  This combination has been sufficient to get many rapture fanatics excited once again.   What will happen when Sunday morning dawns?  They will conveniently forget the error of their ways and look forward to the next opportunity to reassert their fantasy.  Like dogs they return to eat their own regurgitation.

Rapture dogma is dangerous.   

It has become a joke among many Christians all Jews and certainly the entire secular world.   It has contributed to the illegitimacy of the gospel in the 21st century and made witnessing to Our Father's intentions toward us much more difficult to promote.  It is dangerous because the World believes perception is reality.  When the gospel is perceived as a fantasy of deluded souls it's potency is diluted.

It is the purest form of popular heresy to be found in the Post Modern age.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 08:03:01 by Choir Loft »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 22:47:11 »
May I add a few more thoughts on this “Rapture” bit before closing out my part?
_____

   One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23:

   “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”

   It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

   Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

   If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject!

   You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

   Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed community. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware.

   Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).

   Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!

Buff
Sometimes one can speak of the aspect of the Lord's coming that relates to the church and of the aspect of the Lord's coming that relates to the world and its judgment and the Great Tribulation.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 22:47:11 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #44 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 09:59:01 »
Wycliffes Shillelaga: You wrote, The word in Greek is ἁρπάζω, and it means "to seize something by force and carry it away."  It has nothing to do with the direction.

Phil replies, I agree, but I love the way you avoid the whole context of these verses. You said, “It has nothing to do with the direction.”

Hmmm, first the Lord descends from heaven, then those who are raised from the dead will stand with their feet on the ground(you have that right), THEN a second miracle happens to them, they “shall be caught UP---.”

You have the idea of being “caught” or snatched up correct, but you left out the meaning of the word “UP.” Very important in order to understand the full mystery that had been hidden until Paul revealed it.

Synonym’s for up are above, high, higher, springing up, look upward, very top, etc.

Acts 2:19, “I will show wonders in heaven ABOVE.” Same word as "up."

John 8:23, "I am from above," compare with, John 3:13-31, "No man hath ascended UP to heaven," Verse 31, “He that comes from ABOVE--.”

Colossians 3:1-2, “seek those things which are above---.” Verse 2, “Set your affection on things above--.”

Galatians 4:26, "Jerusalem which is above is free," speaking of the celestial Jerusalem in heaven above.

Philippians 3:14, "High calling of God," the heavenly calling, as in Hebrews 3:1. Septuagint for Hebrew, "Heaven above," Deuteronomy 4:39. Joshua 12:11. Exodus 20:4.

Opposite to going up is,, John 6:38, “For I (Jesus) come down from heaven--.”

Now throw in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ---."
Laspino3

One more things, the word "clouds." There not literal clouds we see every day, there supernatural appearances and events, as the pillar of cloud in the desert, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2; compare with Septuagint and Hebrew, Exodus 13:21-22. In connection with Christ, as with a voice from heaven Luke 9:35, "A voice out of the cloud." or at Christ's transfiguration, Matt.17:5, "A bright cloud overshadowed them." Mark 9:7. Luke 9:34. As receiving him at Christ's ascension, Acts 1:9; As surrounding Him at His second coming, Matthew 24:30, 26:64, "Coming in the clouds of heaven." Mark 13:26, 14:62. Luke 21:27. Revelation 1:7, 14:14-15-16. As surrounding ascending saints or angels, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the saints shall, "Be caught up together with them in the clouds."

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #45 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 14:23:21 »
Why do you continue to say that up doesn't appear in Greek? There are many translators on the internet for you to research and realize that this isn't true.
I say that because I've read it in Greek and there is no word "up" there.  But since you insist, why don't you show me?  Here is the Greek:

4:17  ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα

Which word should be translated "up?"

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 14:32:11 »
I agree, but I love the way you avoid the whole context of these verses.
On the contrary, I am putting it back in its context, from which you have ripped it.

Bible: 
Jesus returning to earth
The Day of the Lord is fearful
Righteous gathered to Jerusalem

You:
Christians leaving earth
Can't wait for Him to come
Righteous gathered to heaven

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 14:56:44 »
On the contrary, I am putting it back in its context, from which you have ripped it.

Bible: 
Jesus returning to earth
The Day of the Lord is fearful
Righteous gathered to Jerusalem

You:
Christians leaving earth
Can't wait for Him to come
Righteous gathered to heaven

1 Thessalonians 4: air. Who? church

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 13:22:48 »
1 Thessalonians 4: air. Who? church
"Air" is actually a coffin nail for this interpretation of this verse, but you don't know it yet.  Let's check the lexicon, shall we?

Quote from: Thayer's Lexicon of the Bible
ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ (ἄημι, ἄω (cf. ἄνεμος, at the beginning)), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Homer, Iliad 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts 22:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 9:2; Revelation 16:17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Ephesians 2:2 signifies 'the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air,' i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Meyer at the passage; (B. D. American edition under the word ; Stuart in Bib. Sacr. for 1843, p. 139f)). Sometimes indeed, ἀήρ denotes a hazy, obscure atmosphere (Homer, Iliad 17, 644; 3, 381; 5, 356, etc.; Polybius 18, 3, 7),

Heaven isn't filled with air.  Greek has a separate word for what's in the heavens and that word is aether, not air.  If the verse meant to say the people were going to heaven, it would say we meet Him in the aether.

Who? We who are alive and survive.  Survive what?

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 13:31:36 »
"Air" is actually a coffin nail for this interpretation of this verse, but you don't know it yet.  Let's check the lexicon, shall we?

Heaven isn't filled with air.  Greek has a separate word for what's in the heavens and that word is aether, not air.  If the verse meant to say the people were going to heaven, it would say we meet Him in the aether.

Who? We who are alive and survive.  Survive what?
Put differently, the aspects of the Lord's coming mean different things to believers and unbelievers.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #50 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 20:22:30 »
Joel 2:14, "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decisions."

Wycliffes Shillelagh you wrote, I say that because I've read it in Greek and there is no word "up" there.  But since you insist, why don't you show me? 

Get yourself a good Greek to English Lexicon, I believe the best one out there is Thyer's Greek to English Lexicon of he New testament. You will find four words in Strong's Concordance, the one your interested in is #507. First here's the word to be caught up b. is the one your interested in.  or snatched up or away. This is followed by the Greek word for Up, its, "ano,"

Here's the word caught, # 726. Greek is, harpazo. To seize upon, to snatch away, transitive verb:

a. Spoken of beasts of prey, John 10:12, "The wolf catcheth them." Septuagint for Hebrew, "Rent in pieces," Genesis 37:33. Ez.22:25-27, "Ravening the prey." Metaphor, to seize with desire, craving, Matthew 11:12, "The violent take it by force," meaning the eagerness with which the gospel was received in the agitated state of men's minds: Compare with Luke 16:16.

b. Spoken of what is snatched suddenly away; Now when you snatch someone away, obviously you have to snatch them from one place to another, in the case of 1 Thessalonians it's, "UP!"
Matthew 13:19, "The wicked -- one catcheth away that which was sown." Jude 23, "Pulling them out of the fire." Amos 4:11, "plucked out." Zechariah 3:2. Septuagint for Hebrew, 2 Samuel 23:21. In the sense of to rob, to plunder, John 10:28-29, "No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Septuagint for Hebrew, "Spoiled by violence," Ezekiel 18:7-12-16-18. c. To carry away, to hurry off, by force and involuntarily; spoken of persons, John 6:15, "Would come and take him by force." Acts 8:39, "The Spirit -- caught away Phillip." Acts 23:10, "take him (Paul) by force." 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, "Caught up to the third heaven." 1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Shall be caught up together." Revelation 12:5. Septuagint for Hebrew," Catch you every man." Judges 21:21.

There are four words in the Greek for the word up, here are the numbers, you can look them up yourself.
Numbers are, 507, 508, 597, 1909: The one your interested in is 507 a. 

Here's the word "up." Greek is, "ano". Adverb, up, above, denoting,

a. Place where, Acts 2:19, “In heaven above.” Revelation 5:3, “In heaven.” Hence, as an adjective, what is above, upper, referred to heaven, and therefore heavenly, celestial. So, heaven, John 8:23, “I am from above,” compare with John 3:13-31, “No man hath ascended up to heaven,” and John 6:38, 17:5. 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But things above, heavenly or divine things, Colossians 3:1-2. Galatians 4:26, “Jerusalem which is above is free,” the celestial Jerusalem. Philippians 3:14, “High calling of God,” the heavenly calling, as in Hebrews 3:1. Septuagint for Hebrew, “Heaven above,” Deuteronomy 4:39. Joshua 12:11. Exodus 20:4. Isaiah 7:3, “The upper pool.”

It's also used in the following way, b. Motion to a higher place, upwards, John 11:41, “Lifted up his eyes.” Hebrews 12:15, “Springing up.” Septuagint for Hebrew “Look upward,” Isaiah 8:21, 37:31, Ecclesiastes 3:21. 1 Chronicles 23:3. John 2:7, “Up to the brim,” to the very top or brim.

Phil



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #51 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 12:43:38 »
Hi Phil,

G507 ανο (up) is not in the verse:

4:17  ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #52 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:36:45 »
The following agree that the catching away of the church is in the air, Adam Clark:  Matthew Henry: Jamieson, Fausset and Brown agree: the Interpreter's Bible agrees: the Cottage Bible published in 1853, Walvoord and Zuck, the translators of the King James Bible and the N.I.V. agree with it, and I can go on and on. Even the New World Translation of the Jehovah Witnesses agrees with it.

Now what Bible do you use that does not have the word "air" in it? I have 26 different Bibles at home, let me know.

 ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις

The translation for the above according to the Interlinear Greek- English New Testament K.J.V. "Is to be caught away:" WHERE? 

 ἐν νεφέλαις  translated, "In the clouds." The last I looked, clouds are in the air!

Look Wycliffes, obviously you have your mind made up there is no catching away of the church in the air, that's fine with me, I have no problem with your choice. But there are millions and millions of Christians that believe there is a catching away of the church before the beginning of the tribulation, and that's our hope, so don't get your feathers all ruffled up, this is a discussion forum, and I've given you my side of this teaching.

Laspino

Laspino3

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:38:40 »
I do find the truth of the church's rapture very heartening; we don't have to look forward to the world becoming worse and worse, because even if it does, our Hope is different! :)

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #54 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:45:35 »
The following agree that the catching away of the church is in the air, Adam Clark:  Matthew Henry: Jamieson, Fausset and Brown agree: the Interpreter's Bible agrees: the Cottage Bible published in 1853, Walvoord and Zuck, the translators of the King James Bible and the N.I.V. agree with it, and I can go on and on. Even the New World Translation of the Jehovah Witnesses agrees with it.

Now what Bible do you use that does not have the word "air" in it? I have 26 different Bibles at home, let me know.

 ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις

The translation for the above according to the Interlinear Greek- English New Testament K.J.V. "Is to be caught away:" WHERE? 

 ἐν νεφέλαις  translated, "In the clouds." The last I looked, clouds are in the air!

Look Wycliffes, obviously you have your mind made up there is no catching away of the church in the air, that's fine with me, I have no problem with your choice. But there are millions and millions of Christians that believe there is a catching away of the church before the beginning of the tribulation, and that's our hope, so don't get your feathers all ruffled up, this is a discussion forum, and I've given you my side of this teaching.

Laspino
I'm not upset, Phil.  I'm very familiar with what you're teaching, having been brought up in a Pre-Trib rapture church myself, and having debated the finer points of it with friends and pastors along the way.

I relish the opportunity to show anybody along the way that 1Th 4 does not say anything about the church being snatched up to heaven.  It teaches the gathering of the church to Christ at his return, here on earth.  And it isn't pre-trib, or we wouldn't have statements like "we who are alive and survive..."

Jarrod

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #55 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:47:34 »
I do find the truth of the church's rapture very heartening; we don't have to look forward to the world becoming worse and worse, because even if it does, our Hope is different! :)
I believe that the world is getting better and better.  How could it not, if Jesus is reigning? 

That seems to me to be a more optimistic outlook, than your "just missed doomsday" scenario.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #56 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:49:00 »
I believe that the world is getting better and better.  How could it not, if Jesus is reigning? 

That seems to me to be a more optimistic outlook, than your "just missed doomsday" scenario.
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 3.13-14)

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #57 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 03:51:58 »
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 3.13-14)
That chapter is about false teachers opposing the doctrine of the church.  What else would you expect Paul to say about them? 

Try this one on for size:

1Co 15:25-26  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If there are still enemies and death, then Jesus will be reigning until the enemies are defeated and death is not more.  Sounds like an improvement to me.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 19:38:37 »
Wycliffes wrote," I believe that the world is getting better and better.  How could it not, if Jesus is reigning?"


What universe are you living in? There are about 125 wars raging throughout the world today. Terrorist are murdering themselves and thousands of innocent people weekly. In many major cities around the world you can't walk the streets without getting mugged, knifed, clubbed or shot at. Drug and Alcohol deaths have entered a crisis stage. In most every major city in America the murder rate is at an all time high, Chicago, Denver, L.A. New Jersey, New York, and the list is long. The world is on the brink of nuclear war, most of the world hates Christians ever in Christianity's last stronghold America, hatred is growing daily. And you say the world is getting better and better. Even in the Faith, people of different denominations can't even have a civil conversation.

The world has made a deal with the devil? What they don't understand is, he honors no deals and whatever it is you give him, he will always want more!

Phil

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #59 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 14:48:45 »
Wycliffes wrote," I believe that the world is getting better and better.  How could it not, if Jesus is reigning?"


What universe are you living in? There are about 125 wars raging throughout the world today. Terrorist are murdering themselves and thousands of innocent people weekly. In many major cities around the world you can't walk the streets without getting mugged, knifed, clubbed or shot at. Drug and Alcohol deaths have entered a crisis stage. In most every major city in America the murder rate is at an all time high, Chicago, Denver, L.A. New Jersey, New York, and the list is long. The world is on the brink of nuclear war, most of the world hates Christians ever in Christianity's last stronghold America, hatred is growing daily. And you say the world is getting better and better. Even in the Faith, people of different denominations can't even have a civil conversation.

The world has made a deal with the devil? What they don't understand is, he honors no deals and whatever it is you give him, he will always want more!

Phil
Now compare it to the world 500 years ago...  1000...  2000...  3000.... 4000

4000 years ago, it was compulsory to sacrifice your firstborn son by immolation.  It was considered "lucky" to crush your newborn and bury their body in the wall of your home.  ALL tribes and cities were in a de facto state of war with every other civilization (the first treaty wasn't signed until somewhere around the time of Abraham), except for the case that one king had made other cities his vassals - which is to say they were forced to pay heavy taxes in exchange for... nothing.  Rule of law hadn't been invented, so nothing was actually illegal, and there was no enforcement of law other than the concept of revenge.  Genocide was a cultural norm.  Women were property, and sold as chattel.  The dead were not buried and spread contamination and disease.  Cannibalism of one's enemies wasn't considered inappropriate.

3000 years ago, treaties had come into being, but were not in widespread use.  Rule of law had begun in a rudimentary fashion.  Law that did exist was focused on "eye for an eye" and the death penalty and mutilation were normative for even small crimes.  Woman and slaves were not considered to be people and did not receive any rights.  Fertility cults dominated "culture," and had requirements like compulsory wife-swapping, and ritualized genital mutilation.  Infanticide remained popular.  Professional armies had come into being and conscription was widespread.  Those armies were supported largely by being allowed to pillage, plunder, and rape wherever they traveled.  Phonetic language had been invented, and the first libraries established.

2000 years ago, Persian, Greek and Roman civilizations had ushered in a more widespread peace, based on the threat of greater violence, but still levied heavy taxes on virtually the entire populace.  The Greek idea of culture was to wipe out existing cultures and insist that the people practiced Hellenism.  Considering the cultures they were destroying, this might actually be a positive.  Hellenism was progressive for its day, but still included gladiator fights to the death, widespread homosexuality and the employment of children as sex slaves.  The Roman armies practiced capital punishment vigorously, along with decimation, and continued the practice of "Romanizing" those they subjected.  Professional armies now received wages, but were still allowed to press civilians into service whenever they wanted, if not pillage and rape indiscriminately.  Phonetic language was well established, parchment and vellum had come into use, and schools now existed for the wealthy or well-connected.  Philosophy was born, and civilizations were now more structured and governed according to systems and principles.  Women had limited rights, which was an improvement on no rights.

1000 years ago, the Catholic Church had largely illegalized the abhorrent practices discussed above, except that they continued to extirpate indigenous culture wherever it was found, and "christianize" the locals.  The Catholic church was in the middle of a messy divorce with the Eastern Orthodox, and just about to launch a series of Crusades to "free" the Holy Land from the (at-that-time) more civilized and libertine Islamic rulers of the region.  While depraved behavior was largely illegal, it was still widespread because the enforcers of the law were largely corrupt.  Professional armies remained a blight on society, and women's rights remained very limited.  Feudalism was the de facto economic system of the day, which meant that only nobles actually owned anything, and many/most people were indentured in some way if not in outright slavery.  This was actually an improvement, because a peasant could at least expect some sort of enforcement of laws and protection in exchange for his money and his freedom.

500 years ago the world had entered the Renaissance and education and art had started in earnest.  Technology was now moving forward quickly.  Feudalism was still in widespread use but about to enter a death spiral as kings freed themselves from papal influence, and nobles put demands on their kings rather than the other way round.  Abuses of power by the church were being identified by Reformers both inside and outside of it.

But none of that compares to today, where we have it good by comparison.  To think otherwise is to be ignorant of history.

Jarrod

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #60 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 14:56:11 »
Rapture means 'caught up', as in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #61 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 19:02:48 »
The Spirit of God is always moving; His tendency is toward hope, but for many, their conviction of certain Biblical truths will eventually lead them into tragedy.

2 Corinthians 12:2, "I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such a one CAUGHT UP to the third heaven."

The word "CAUGHT" in this verse is the same word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It is translated "caught away" in both verses. In Paul's case he tells us where he was caught away, it was "up to the third heaven" and the last I looked, Heaven is "UP." So instead of translating it "caught away to the third heaven," up, gives us the direction of heaven, it's up! And the same applies to 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

If your caught away, the question any sane, normal person would be, WHERE were they caught away to? In 2 Corinthians the answer would be "caught up to the third heaven." In the case of 1 Thessalonians 4, it's "caught up ---- in the clouds." Same Greek, same direction!

And for all you people who deny the "rapture or catching away of the church to be with the Lord," I'd bet you'd love to tear 1 Thessalonians 4:16 out of every Bible so you could prove your incorrect views. But much to your dismay, it's going to happen whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, your miscalculations change nothing, your name calling and wise cracks change nothing. 1 Thessalonians is written so even the uneducated can understand it, but then getting the truth to those who deny what is obvious is, WHAT? I'll let you answer the question for yourselves.

Because of unbelief many are going to miss out on every true Christians greatest hope, that being, "To be caught up --- in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Laspino

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #62 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 21:54:45 »
Rapture means 'caught up', as in 1 Thessalonians 4.
It means "carried off" as in 1 Th 4. :)

The Greek word (harpazo) is the etymological ancestor of our words raptor, and rape.  Let that inform your understanding.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Aug 23, 2018 - 22:10:01 »
the etymological ancestor of our words raptor, and rape.  Let that inform your understanding.
I don't think you are seriously suggesting that such a crime is in view in 1 Thess. 4; I think rather that you are making this remark in order to try to discredit my observation.

In which case, our discussion has ceased to be profitable.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 07:37:30 »
I saw this movie once called the Terminator. There was a line in there that reminds me of Wycliffes and others who say "caught up" is not Biblical. "The line was this, speaking of the Terminator, "He can't be reasoned with!"

Wycliffes states, the phrase "caught up" is incorrect! But the translators of the following Bibles say differently. "Caught up in the clouds" is correct. Let's begin with, the King James, the Amplified, the N.I.V., the New American Standard, the Latin Vulgate, Matthew Henry 1802 Bible, the Revived Standard, the Reformation Bible, the Serendipity and every other Bible I have, all 26 of them say "CAUGHT UP" except for the Jehovah Witnesses New World Translation which does not surprise me because it's the most corrupted Bible in publication.

Now from the conversations that have been going on here, am I to believe that Mr. Wycliffes is so far superior in his Greek that every one of the thousands of Greek scholars and translators that worked on these many, many Bibles were and are dwarfed in their understanding and interpretation of the Greek language by Mr. Wycliffes Shillelagh and those who agree with him?

I know what my answer is, you all can all make up your own minds.

Laspino

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 07:39:48 »
I saw this movie once called the Terminator. There was a line in there that reminds me of Wycliffes and others who say "caught up" is not Biblical. "The line was this, speaking of the Terminator, "He can't be reasoned with!"

Wycliffes states, the phrase "caught up" is incorrect! But the translators of the following Bibles say differently. "Caught up in the clouds" is correct. Let's begin with, the King James, the Amplified, the N.I.V., the New American Standard, the Latin Vulgate, Matthew Henry 1802 Bible, the Revived Standard, the Reformation Bible, the Serendipity and every other Bible I have, all 26 of them say "CAUGHT UP" except for the Jehovah Witnesses New World Translation which does not surprise me because it's the most corrupted Bible in publication.

Now from the conversations that have been going on here, am I to believe that Mr. Wycliffes is so far superior in his Greek that every one of the thousands of Greek scholars and translators that worked on these many, many Bibles were and are dwarfed in their understanding and interpretation of the Greek language by Mr. Wycliffes Shillelagh and those who agree with him?

I know what my answer is, you all can all make up your own minds.

Laspino
Like you say, we know what the passage says. Blessings.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 09:07:47 »
Let's just say, "The Devil made me do it." If I understand Paul warning about the SUPER apostles who wanted money in Corinth that "Fools love to be fooled."  Most if not all Market Place religions are fabricated as a way to Make the Lambs Dumb before the slaughter and Duct Tape the mouth of Jesus.

Most words have a BRIGHT side of the coin and a DARK side.  The way to put you into a KOMA while they pick the Widow's Purse. For instance while they put you into a panic else you miss the RAPTURE they use RAPTURE to keep you from catching on.

The Greek rapture"
harpazō ,  in Luc. Sacr.3.
3. seize, overpower, overmaster, “glōssan ha. phobos” A.Th. 259; seize, occupy a post, X.An.4.6.11; harpasai peiran seize an opportunity of attacking, S.Aj.2; “ha. ton KAIRON  Plu.Phil.15; snap up, “hōsper heurēma” Herod.6.30.


    phobos    A.panic flight,
    Apollōn thēras phobō” Pi.P.5.61; of the person who feels fear,

Pi.P.5.61 Even loud-roaring lions fled in fear from Battus,
        when he unleashed on them his voice from across the sea. [60]
        And Apollon, the first leader,
        doomed the beasts to dread fear,
        so that his oracles to the guardian of Cyrene would not go unfulfilled.
[63] It is Apollon who dispenses remedies to men and women for grievous diseases, [65]
       and who bestowed on us the CITHARA  [The harp]
       and gives the Muses' inspiration to whomever he will,
       bringing peaceful concord [charming] into the mind,
       and who possesses the oracular shrine;

APOLLON IS LEADER OF THE LOCUSTS OR MUSES NOW UNLEASHED as MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS

       Hes. Th. 1 [25] the Muses of Olympus, daughters of Zeus who holds the aegis:
        “Shepherds of the wilderness,
        wretched things of shame, mere bellies,
        we know how to speak many false things as though they were true;
        but we know, when we will, to utter true things.”
                and they bade me sing of the race of the blessed gods that are eternally,
                BUT ever to sing of themselves both first and last.

SORCERY: pharma^kon 3. enchanted potion, philtre: hence, charm, spell, Od.4.220 sq., Ar.Pl.302, [Circe, Church, Corinth mother of harlots]  Theoc.2.15

    The singers [Muses], instrument players and craftsmen as sorcerers in Revelation 18.

OF THE KAIROS CHURCH PLANTING PLOT TAKING OVER YOUR GROUP:

ha. ton kairon” Plu.Phil.15; snap up

They boast about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING your congregation so that Apollon and the Muses can put you into a koma. The usually organize a "leadership in exile." That is how Madison grew from over 5000 to about 1300.

Xen. Cav. 4.17] And when anything can be filched by cunning, you should send likely men to steal it; and when anything may be SEIZED you should despatch troops to seize it. If the enemy is marching on some objective and a part of his force weaker than your own separates from the main body or straggles carelessly, the chance must not be missed; the hunter, however, must always be stronger than the hunted.

    Plu.Phil.15; Sparta was therefore in a state of confusion, and Philopoemen,
            seizing his opportunity,  harpasas ton kairon epipiptei meta dunameōs
            fell upon the city with an armed force,
            and partly by compulsion,
            partly by persuasion,
            brought it over to his purposes and made it a member of the Achaean league.

Rubel Shelly has one of those in Franklin, Tn.

Socrates
And their flute-tunes also are most divine,
       and alone stir and make manifest those
       who are in need of the gods;
             and to this day they only remain, as being divine.
             a mystic phrase for “ready for divine possession” (enthousiasmos).

Enthus-O-Mania
enthousi-asmos , ho, A.inspiration, enthusiasm, frenzy,  ; “alogos e.” Phld.Ir.p.67 W.; Koma produced by certain kinds of music, Arist.Pol.1340a11, 1342a7.

    --kōma , atos, to, (perh. cogn. with keimai, koimaō) A.deep sleep, “autō
      “aithussomenōn de phullōn k. katarrei” [Set in Rapid Motion stir up, kindle, Hermes stealing 
       Apollon's Cattle]  Sapph.4; “hupnou k.” Theoc.Ep.3.6: metaph., of the effect of music, Pi.P.1.12.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 09:20:53 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 12:19:24 »
I don't think you are seriously suggesting that such a crime is in view in 1 Thess. 4; I think rather that you are making this remark in order to try to discredit my observation.

In which case, our discussion has ceased to be profitable.
It's in contradiction of your post, but the intent is to inform (which is actually stated in the post).  Perhaps it does not inform you, but you are not the only reader.

Also, please try not to twist my words.  I nowhere intimated any sort of crime.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 12:31:05 »
I saw this movie once called the Terminator. There was a line in there that reminds me of Wycliffes and others who say "caught up" is not Biblical. "The line was this, speaking of the Terminator, "He can't be reasoned with!"

Wycliffes states, the phrase "caught up" is incorrect! But the translators of the following Bibles say differently. "Caught up in the clouds" is correct. Let's begin with, the King James, the Amplified, the N.I.V., the New American Standard, the Latin Vulgate, Matthew Henry 1802 Bible, the Revived Standard, the Reformation Bible, the Serendipity and every other Bible I have, all 26 of them say "CAUGHT UP" except for the Jehovah Witnesses New World Translation which does not surprise me because it's the most corrupted Bible in publication.

Now from the conversations that have been going on here, am I to believe that Mr. Wycliffes is so far superior in his Greek that every one of the thousands of Greek scholars and translators that worked on these many, many Bibles were and are dwarfed in their understanding and interpretation of the Greek language by Mr. Wycliffes Shillelagh and those who agree with him?

I know what my answer is, you all can all make up your own minds.

Laspino
Note the clevor rhetoric, reader.  Rather than debate the point at hand, Phil has re-framed this argument as an appeal to authority.  He cannot deal with the logic of the argument or the plain grammar of the verse.  So instead he's going to gather as many sources that agree with his position as he possibly can in an attempt to "win" simply by having more people sitting on his side of the table.

Of course, the sources he cites are not actually supporting him.  He's just working from a misunderstanding of their work.  But instead of digressing, I think I'll  just keep coming back to what is actually written.  Again:

4:17  ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα

Which word should be translated "up?"

I keep asking, and you keep avoiding and deflecting the question.  What other backflips and somersaults you can do to avoid a plain, direct question?

Or, maybe someone with more credibility would like to take up the cause in a more intellectually honest way?

Offline dan p

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 20:04:52 »
  Hi and the   EVENT   is there ,   BUT   where is the Greek word for  RAPTURE ??

 This is not  ONE ,  is why !!

 But you can use the  Greek word   PAROUSIA / COMING  IN 2 Thess 2:1    or can use the  Greek word  APOSTASIA /  DEPARTURE   in 2 Thees  2:3  that is translated   FALLING  AWAY    or use  1 Cor 15:51--58  or use  1  Thess 4_18 and the nsame Greek word   COMING / PAROUSIA  /  COMING  is used in verse 15  !!

 dan p
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 24, 2018 - 20:07:02 by dan p »

 

     
anything