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Offline LaSpino3

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Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 19:40:24 »
Is the word rapture Biblical? Yes! The catching away, or rapture of the body of Christ is biblical and from God. It is part of God’s plan of saving believers from the tribulation to come.
 
Many deny the word rapture; and also deny the event. Question, is the word rapture in the English version of our Bibles? No! Is the word rapture, “rapturo” in the Latin Bibles? Yes!

The first 66 books of the Bible were first gathered together in the 4th century by Jerome. Jerome was a priest, theologian, and historian. He was born March 27th in the year 347 A.D. and died in September of 420 A.D. He is best known for his translation of most of the Bible into Latin, and his commentaries on the Gospels.
 
The Bible was first written in Latin and the Latin word used for rapture is “rapturo” which means to be seized by force, snatched up. From the Latin, the Bible was then translated to Greek, and the Greek word used is, “harpazo” which also meanings “to seize upon by force” or “to snatch up”.

Finally, the Bible was translated into English and the phrase used for rapture is “caught up.” So, the English word rapture comes from the Latin word “rapturo”, and the Greek word “harpazo,” all three mean the same thing, to seize upon by force, to snatch upon by force. So, depending on the Bible version and language your Bible is written in, the three words have the same meaning, therefore the three words are correct.

Here’s a good comparison; the name of our Lord in English is Jesus, in Hebrew its Yeshua, in Greek Iesous, in German, wer ist das. Question, is one correct and the other not? Of course not! Again, it would depend on the language your Bible is written in.

Therefore, in the same way, the English word “rapture” which means “to be caught up,” is an excellent translation for the Latin word, “rapturo”, or the Greek word “harpazo”, but, they all mean the same thing.

Laspino3

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Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 19:40:24 »

Online e.r.m.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 20:17:59 »
Laspino3,
Thank you for sharing.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 20:17:59 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 22:39:58 »

Laspino3:

   In 1997, in an issue of my publication The Reformer, I issued a challenge to anyone who could document any evidence that the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, was taught by any “church leader” or “church father” prior to 255 years ago. No one came forward. It is now 2018. I’m still waiting.

   In my research, I discovered that in 1742-44 Morgan Edwards wrote a book on the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine. It was published in 1788. Thus began the contemporary “Rapture” melodrama.

   Morgan became a Baptist leader of notoriety, confirming my conviction that the “Rapture” doctrine is largely a Baptist doctrine, not a doctrine of Jesus and his apostles. As far as my research implies, there’s no record prior to 1742 of the “Rapture” doctrine being taught or its details being published by anyone, not even by the “church fathers.”

   It strikes me rather odd that if the “Rapture” doctrine is a divine teaching, why did our “church fathers” fail to write about it? They wrote about all other major doctrines of the apostles. Why would they overlook a major topic as important as the “Rapture?”

Buff

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 22:39:58 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 06:38:19 »
Reformer, please read again the article. The word rapture was written in the first bible, 4th century. If we say in English "caught up," or "rapturo" in Latin, or "harpazo" in Greek, it all means the same thing, "to be snatched away." To say the word has not been in the scriptures from the beginning is nonsense! And because the subject was not a popular subject to teach or discuss until recent years does not change the fact that it has been in scriptures from the beginning of the gospels and the epistles of Paul.

Laspino

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 06:38:19 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 10:19:30 »

LaSpino3:

   Thanks for your response. As you can see in my first remarks, I did not address whether or not the term “Rapture” is found in the scriptures.

   Instead, I stated that the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, is not found in scripture. I may have more to say about this later.

Take Care,

Buff

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 10:19:30 »



Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 13:57:42 »
Reformer, as you know I do all my own research. The most interesting for me is end time prophesy. Concerning end time prophesy, many of the most reliable commentators of the past, Adam Clark who wrote his commentary in the late 18th or early 19th century, a book I own, 1837. Also Matthew Henry's Bible with commentaries published in 1804 another one I own. Also a commentary by Jamieson, Fausset, Brown published in 1872, and a 1827 K.J.B with some commentaries, plus many new ones.

What I have come to realize is, many of these commentators who lived 200 years ago would never touch on certain verses concerning end time prophesy. What they have done is skip over certain verses. Why? because they were honest and didn't understand what they were reading. Personally I believe there are things having been written why back 26-27 hundred years ago in the books of Daniel's, Hosea's Isaiah and others that are only now being revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, let's call them mysteries only now to be being revealed. Daniel and John were told to close portions of their books until the time of the end. Well, were near to the end, and now it's on God's timetable to reveal what remains of any end time prophesy. 

let's say a man owns a piece of property that had been handed down through his family for centuries. During that long period of time, the land had been worked many times over. Now one day he goes out to gather some larger stones that had worked there way to the surface, and he spots a coin lying on top of the ground. He picks it up and realizes its a coin minted during the war of 1812. He decides to dig further down and finds another 100 coins just below the surface, all minted about the same time. The rawhide bag that once held them had rotted away. 

Now would I be safe in saying that in al that time, these coins lay hidden there for several hundred years, undetected? Well I believe the same thing has gone on with the Scriptures. Only now would it be necessary for the Lord to reveal certain end time mysteries. I honestly believe there will be more unraveling of these last mysteries in the very near future. Why, because theirs not much time left!

Cyrus was prophesied 100 years before he was born; a Jewish Messiah was prophesied hundreds of years before He arrived. All that the prophets wrote about Christ was not understood by the Jews even when he arrived on the scene, they still didn't understand. The disciples up to the day the Lord went to the cross, they "understood none of these things," and I feel that were no different today. I examine the work of others, and if I find errors in their conclusions, I'm not afraid to share my thoughts with others. I trust myself because I know the amount of work I put in to my research. I have no intention of going on T.V., or writing books, or making money off of my work. All I'm interested in is the truth. 

Didn't mean to make these so long, but I hope you understand.

Phil LaSpino

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 13:57:42 »

Offline lea

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:20:15 »

The real episode called a "rapture" is at the moment of death, a believer is
"caught up"  to Christ.

The nonsense of the other group rapture alive is mainly because
 1) they do not understand what Paul meant.
2) it sounds like a good idea- not dying and all!

I have no further comment. My view is set in stone.  I shall meet Jesus and my dead loved ones above the clouds when I have finished my journey here.

Joyously. Blissfully.



Offline RB

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:25:55 »
LaSpino3:

   Thanks for your response. As you can see in my first remarks, I did not address whether or not the term “Rapture” is found in the scriptures.

   Instead, I stated that the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, is not found in scripture. I may have more to say about this later.

Take Care,

Buff


I agree with Reformer
Quote
the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, is not found in scripture
"caught up" from where we get the meaning of the word rapture, IS found in 1st Thess. 4 and Revelation 11, that shall take place at the last trump, at the resurrection of the dead, at Jesus' second coming, ALL of which are one and the same event. Again:
Quote
the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, is not found in scripture
To which we agree.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 17:54:38 »
One more time. The Latin Vulgate Bible is the word of God; it is a Bible. The only difference from ours is, it's in Latin. Now Latin was the language of ancient Rome, not English. Therefore the first Bibles published in the 4th century were in Latin, and if you owned one, you would see the word "rapturo" not "Caught up." 

If you disagree with that, then what your basically saying is, the Latin Bible is not a Bible, nor is it the word of God. I don't get it, why do you people reject any idea that Bibles are written in many different languages, yet if all of them were translated into one language, they would pretty much read the same. And what to understand regardless of what language a Bible is written in, or what word is used, they all mean the same thing, to be snatched away" to be snatched up by force. Now my English Bible reads, we will be "caught up in the air." Not sure what some of your definations of air are.

And Lea, my Bible reads, "and those which are alive will also be caught up. Again, not sure what your understanding is of being alive is.

Phil

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 17:54:38 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 23:50:13 »

LaSpino3:

   I’ve read what you have posted, and I think I understand where you’re coming from. Yet the modern-day Rapture dogma, as publicized today, is still questionable. I’ll try to clarify. I think it wise that we first identify the doctrine’s composition.

   1) “Rapture” is not found in any of our oldest Greek manuscripts. It has its origin in the Latin word “rapere,” which means to “take away,” “snatch out,” or “to seize.” We must not call “rapture” a biblical term for there is no Greek word that translates it.

  2) The idea is that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died.

   3) If you are on the roof of your house, or riding horseback, or in your car on a busy highway, or in bed with your spouse, you will be “snatched” or “caught up”—disappear all of a sudden. Your unregenerate friends and relatives will be amazed at your sudden disappearance. Cars will crash without drivers; planes will fall without pilots.

   4) At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church” and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence.

   Does this sound like something you’ve never heard before? If yes, it is because you’ve never read it before—at least not in the scriptures. The scriptures used to support the “Rapture” are 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17, where Paul deals with the Lord’s return. Revelation, chapters 4-5, are supposed to capture the heavenly scene, and the 7-year “Tribulation” period, which follows the “snatching up,” is described in Revelation, chapters 4-19—or so allege the “Rapture” defenders.

   Now read me carefully. If 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 do not teach the “Rapture” creed, the entire core of the screenplay collapses. We agree that when Jesus returns, He will bring with him “those who have fallen asleep” (v.14). Furthermore, we concur that when He makes His second advent, He will “snatch up” those of us still living “to meet the Lord in the air” (v.17).

   It is agreed further that those of us still living will not precede or go ahead of those who have died (v.15). We will be caught up together with departed saints, after they have been resurrected from their paradise abode. These saints will accompany Jesus (“God will bring with Jesus,” v.14) as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive.

   This is where the agreement ends. Premillennial advocates have Jesus descending twice, once to “rapture” saints and once more when He returns with them to put an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon,” followed by a thousand-year earthly government.

   In this matter, they select a few highly symbolic passages from the Book of Revelation, tie them in with the Thessalonian verses, and the “Rapture stage” is ready to perform. Nowhere in the Thessalonian verses is it remotely implied that Jesus will descend twice more. Please keep that idea in mind as we examine this dramatic creed. For if, as stated earlier, these verses fail to advance the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside.

   It is wise to remember that nowhere in scripture is it taught, or remotely indicated, that Jesus will personally and visibly return twice more. His second advent is alluded to time after time, but never a third advent. Nor do the scriptures speak of saints ascending into heaven twice, once at the so-called “Rapture,” and once again “when the thousand years are over,” as the doctrine is advocated.

Goodnight,

Buff

Offline Alan

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 07:04:50 »
One more time. The Latin Vulgate Bible is the word of God; it is a Bible. The only difference from ours is, it's in Latin. Now Latin was the language of ancient Rome, not English. Therefore the first Bibles published in the 4th century were in Latin, and if you owned one, you would see the word "rapturo" not "Caught up." 


Why would you place so much emphasis on a word translated from the original manuscripts? Especially when that word didn't exist prior to the Latin translation.


Seems very odd that "caught up" translates to Harpazo and back to English as "snatched or seized".

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 08:14:21 »
Allen, you need to do more research. To say the idea of being snatched away, or caught up, or taken wasn't in the Latin vocabulary is nonsense. What do you think these people were stupid?  3 and 4 hundred years before and until Rome and after, there were many intelligent people, Aristotle, Cicero, Seneca, Vergil, Epicteus and many others. 

Laspino

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 18:27:10 »
Here are additional comments on the “Rapture” scenario.

   Let it be noted that if Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 fails to bolster the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside. Let’s examine the apostle’s remarks in detail. We’ll read them as they appear in Ist Thess. 4.
 
   13. “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14. We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, and are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

   1) Paul is speaking of one event, one occurrence, one happening—not two. It all happens in instantaneous succession.

  2) A speedy return of the Lord apparently was on the minds of the Thessalonian saints, and they felt badly about those who had “fallen asleep” (died), thinking it a great loss that they were not alive to meet Jesus when He made His second advent (v.13).

   3) When Jesus is personally revealed again, those saints who have died will be resurrected from their paradise abode and accompany Jesus as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive (v.14).

    4) It would take a lot of theological distorting of verse 15 to make it mean something other than what Paul said. When Jesus makes His second personal advent, living saints will not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep, but “will be caught up together with them [departed saints] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    5) Jesus will return from heaven for the second time with an announcement everyone will be able to hear (v.16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected prior to meeting the Lord, and prior to living saints gathering to Him.

  6) In verse 17, “after that” points directly to the same sequence of things, as mentioned in verse 16. In other words, living saints will be caught up with resurrected saints the moment those saints are raised. I repeat again: Only one advent is alluded to in these verses.

   Nowhere in scripture does it speak of Jesus making two personal advents, following His ascension into heaven two-thousand years ago. Nor do they speak of saints ascending into heaven twice.

   Saints have been reigning with Jesus since He was “Exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” (Acts 2:33-35). He now sits on “David’s throne” (Acts 2:30) in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints.

   Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers. The saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness” and transferred “into the kingdom of the Son He loves” (Colossians 1:13).

   As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! If He is now King, and He is, why in logic’s name would He surrender his superior kingship in heaven to return to earth to become King of an inferior kingdom during an alleged thousand-year earthly reign?

Buff

Offline notreligus

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:14:19 »
Here are additional comments on the “Rapture” scenario.

   Let it be noted that if Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 fails to bolster the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside. Let’s examine the apostle’s remarks in detail. We’ll read them as they appear in Ist Thess. 4.
 
   13. “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14. We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, and are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

   1) Paul is speaking of one event, one occurrence, one happening—not two. It all happens in instantaneous succession.

  2) A speedy return of the Lord apparently was on the minds of the Thessalonian saints, and they felt badly about those who had “fallen asleep” (died), thinking it a great loss that they were not alive to meet Jesus when He made His second advent (v.13).

   3) When Jesus is personally revealed again, those saints who have died will be resurrected from their paradise abode and accompany Jesus as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive (v.14).

    4) It would take a lot of theological distorting of verse 15 to make it mean something other than what Paul said. When Jesus makes His second personal advent, living saints will not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep, but “will be caught up together with them [departed saints] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    5) Jesus will return from heaven for the second time with an announcement everyone will be able to hear (v.16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected prior to meeting the Lord, and prior to living saints gathering to Him.

  6) In verse 17, “after that” points directly to the same sequence of things, as mentioned in verse 16. In other words, living saints will be caught up with resurrected saints the moment those saints are raised. I repeat again: Only one advent is alluded to in these verses.

   Nowhere in scripture does it speak of Jesus making two personal advents, following His ascension into heaven two-thousand years ago. Nor do they speak of saints ascending into heaven twice.

   Saints have been reigning with Jesus since He was “Exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” (Acts 2:33-35). He now sits on “David’s throne” (Acts 2:30) in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints.

   Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers. The saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness” and transferred “into the kingdom of the Son He loves” (Colossians 1:13).

   As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! If He is now King, and He is, why in logic’s name would He surrender his superior kingship in heaven to return to earth to become King of an inferior kingdom during an alleged thousand-year earthly reign?

Buff

He's not going to come back to reign over an inferior kingdom with the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifices restored.   To restore the Mosaic Law would require that Jesus step down and leave the Law to reign superior.   I don't agree with Dispensationalists who claim two future kingdoms are yet to come.   

I believe that Jesus is going to reign over a permanent kingdom on the New Earth.   It will be like the one originally created by God for Him to have a relationship with His people. 

Offline notreligus

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:17:09 »

Why would you place so much emphasis on a word translated from the original manuscripts? Especially when that word didn't exist prior to the Latin translation.


Seems very odd that "caught up" translates to Harpazo and back to English as "snatched or seized".

The translated words mean essentially the same thing.   What must be understood is that God's fully unleashed wrath is not for His people.  Whether He seizes me, snatches me, or catches me up won't matter to me if I'm on this Earth when He is about to unleash His wrath.   

Offline lea

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:29:09 »
La spino said:
Quote
And Lea, my Bible reads, "and those which are alive will also be caught up. Again, not sure what your understanding is of being alive is.

That's right. Those who were alive- heck,we too, will be caught up "raptured" in the same way our dead loved ones were.

When we die.

Didn't Peter say that Paul was sometimes hard to understand?

It took me some time to figure some of his Epistles out. 

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 13:57:46 »

   NOTRELIGIOUS: "He's not going to come back to reign over an inferior kingdom with the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifices restored.   To restore the Mosaic Law would require that Jesus step down and leave the Law to reign superior.   I don't agree with Dispensationalists who claim two future kingdoms are yet to come.   

  "I believe that Jesus is going to reign over a permanent kingdom on the New Earth.   It will be like the one originally created by God for Him to have a relationship with His people."
____

   We're on the same 'Network' in your first paragraph, but a little separated on your your second paragraph. However, if our God chooses Planet Earth to be our Eternal Paradise, I will not object!

Buff

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 15:34:43 »
The real episode called a "rapture" is at the moment of death, a believer is
"caught up"  to Christ.

The nonsense of the other group rapture alive is mainly because
 1) they do not understand what Paul meant.
2) it sounds like a good idea- not dying and all!

I have no further comment. My view is set in stone.  I shall meet Jesus and my dead loved ones above the clouds when I have finished my journey here.

Joyously. Blissfully.

Please tell me lea.

Do you personally believe there will be an end to this age? One where Jesus will return to earth?

If not, then my next question is moot,but if you do... exactly what will happen to the people who are alive when he returns or are you of the mindset we all will be dead before he comes?


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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 18:56:00 »
I think the reason so many people question what is called the rapture, or the snatching away, is that our Bible calls it a mystery. It is difficult or impossible for people to understand. Yes, we have boiled this topic down to "pre-trib", "post-trib", etc, but the complete scope of rapture is probably beyond human understanding.

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 22:49:51 »

thedrumchannell:

    You noted, “Yes, we have boiled this topic down to ‘pre-trib,’ ‘post-trib,’ etc, but the complete scope of rapture is probably beyond human understanding.”
_____

    Actually, since the contemporary doctrine of “the Rapture,” as publicized today, is nowhere taught in scripture, perhaps that is why it is “beyond human understanding.”

Buff

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 16:18:09 »
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The Bible was first written in Latin and the Latin word used for rapture is “rapturo” which means to be seized by force, snatched up. From the Latin, the Bible was then translated to Greek, and the Greek word used is, “harpazo” which also meanings “to seize upon by force” or “to snatch up”.
Factually incorrect.  The New Testament books were first written in Greek; the Old Testament in Hebrew.

Your articles consistently have demonstrably untrue statements in them.  How do you expect anyone to trust your conclusions, when you can't even get the bare facts straight?

Online Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 16:47:11 »
A bird of prey.


Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 23:13:54 »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh:

Right on target. "Soldier on."

Buff

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 15:34:10 »
thedrumchannell:

    You noted, “Yes, we have boiled this topic down to ‘pre-trib,’ ‘post-trib,’ etc, but the complete scope of rapture is probably beyond human understanding.”
_____

    Actually, since the contemporary doctrine of “the Rapture,” as publicized today, is nowhere taught in scripture, perhaps that is why it is “beyond human understanding.”

Buff

This is pretty much my point, friend. The modern concept of the rapture differs from that in the Bible, but make no mistake, the dead rising in Christ and us meeting Him in the clouds will come to pass. Call it the rapture, snatching away, translation, whatever... it is written in our Bible.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 15:57:59 »
This is pretty much my point, friend. The modern concept of the rapture differs from that in the Bible, but make no mistake, the dead rising in Christ and us meeting Him in the clouds will come to pass. Call it the rapture, snatching away, translation, whatever... it is written in our Bible.
That is the modern mis-understanding.  The Biblical doctrine is the gathering on earth to Christ, rather than Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 16:17:48 »
That is the modern mis-understanding.  The Biblical doctrine is the gathering on earth to Christ, rather than Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Are you saying that the gathering will be on earth instead of in the clouds?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 16:28:52 »
Are you saying that the gathering will be on earth instead of in the clouds?
Yes. 

Also, not sure which verse(s) you're looking at, but cloud is usually singular not plural.  Unless you're in 1Th 4, in which case the word is air, not cloud.

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 16:39:21 »
Yes. 

Also, not sure which verse(s) you're looking at, but cloud is usually singular not plural.  Unless you're in 1Th 4, in which case the word is air, not cloud.

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Thessalonians 4:17

In this verse, those still alive will meet the risen saints in the clouds, to meet Jesus in the air. Not on the earth.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 16:48:42 »
Go back one verse.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven.

There's a reason its called the "coming" and "return," rather than the "drive-by."

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 17:03:54 »
Go back one verse.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven.

There's a reason its called the "coming" and "return," rather than the "drive-by."

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? I have always understood this verse to mean that Jesus descends from heaven to the clouds, not from heaven to earth.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 18:54:31 »
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? I have always understood this verse to mean that Jesus descends from heaven to the clouds, not from heaven to earth.
And then he just pumps the brakes, pulls a U-turn and goes straight back up, hmmmmm?  That isn't a return, it's a fly-by.

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 19:44:20 »
And then he just pumps the brakes, pulls a U-turn and goes straight back up, hmmmmm?  That isn't a return, it's a fly-by.

I did not mention anything about Jesus going back up after meeting in the clouds.

Offline soterion

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 21:53:12 »
And then he just pumps the brakes, pulls a U-turn and goes straight back up, hmmmmm?  That isn't a return, it's a fly-by.

Wycliffes,

Or, why should anybody ascend to meet Him in the clouds if He is going to come down to the earth anyway? He could just meet everybody here.

My personal belief, the 1 Thess 4 passage is describing in part the same event as found in Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and Hebrews 9:27-28. Jesus is going to return so as to render judgment and allot the eternal destination of each person. Jesus could orchestrate the judgment in the clouds and then take the saved up and away, or He could return the saved to a renewed earth. I doubt anybody is going to complain whichever it turns out to be. All that should matter is what the end of verse 17 in 1 Thess 4 says, "...and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Offline Reformer

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 18:44:28 »

May I add a few more thoughts on this “Rapture” bit before closing out my part?
_____

   One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23:

   “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”

   It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

   Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

   If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject!

   You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

   Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed community. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware.

   Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).

   Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!

Buff

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 13:59:25 »
Y'all are missing the point of the cloud.

In the Old Testament, when God met with Moses He cloaked Himself in a cloud.  At Jesus ascension, He ascended in a cloud.  He is meant to return "in the same way."  The point of the cloud is not that we are going UP.  The point of the cloud is that He is God, and this is how he rolls.

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why should anybody ascend?
They don't.  UP doesn't appear in Greek.  The cloud descends to the ground.

 

     
anything