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4WD:

    "It is the death of the spirit, not the death of the body, that is due to sin. The wages of sin is the death of the spirit."

    "Death of the spirit"...hmmm, a new one to me. Aren't you doing some adding, as you accused me of doing earlier? If Adam had not sinned, we could still be playing games with him in the backyards of our Paradise or Garden of Eden! True, his spirit, his real self, was damaged, as ours is when we rebel again God. But death? Hmmm.

Buff

For What it is worth, for all the words, books, etc. talking about "The Fall", I find it interesting that there is not a single passage in the Bible that speaks of "The Fall" in application to the sin of Adam or anyone else.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

What else would you call children of the fallen one? Besides the fallen, of course.

The Holiness background I grew up with insisted that we would not be here had the fall not happened. 
Sex (and procreation) was a product of the fall. 
Even though the command to be fruitful and multiply came in Genesis chapter 1.

they pictured Adam and Eve with a big ball of yellow light that extended from the shoulders down to the knees and hid everything in between.

The sex and procreation part doesn't make any sense. Something did happen though, which made Adam and Eve feel and or know they were naked. To the extent, that they literally covered up. I would think it had something to do with the spiritual bodies they were created with, becoming simply earthly bodies, earthy.

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.................................
21  Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Before Adam's sin, no one needed salvation. After it, everyone needs salvation. We are not like Adam before the fall, therefore neither have we sinned "after the similitude of Adam's transgression". Nevertheless, we are all sinners in need of salvation. Having inherited a sinful nature from our parents who chose to sin against God.

When we are born, we are all like Adam before he sinned.  Once we grow and reach a level of maturity that we can understand what it means to obey or disobey God's commandments, rules and laws and we choose to disobey, as did Adam,  then we sin. Until then we are innocent, just as was Adam, before he chose to disobey.

Possessing a sinful nature is not in itself a sin.  Moreover, there is no mention of a sinful nature in the whole of the Bible except in the NIV.  And that is a corruption of translation of the Greek word σάρξ [sarx] which means "flesh" or "human nature" and nothing more than that. And besides if mankind sins due to a "sinful nature" and Adam didn't have such a sinful nature, then why did he sin?  Whatever else a sinful nature might be, it is really nothing more than the tendency of a human being to sin, to choose to disobey God's laws, rules, commands, etc.  To sin is to choose wrongly. 
 
Seriously, you people and your perverse teaching on Original Sin have to make up all manner of nonsensical theological eisegesis to support it. The very idea of Original Sin is an affront to God, or even more an outright heresy.

[b]Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.[/b] [/size]

The sin there was not David's; but rather the sin was in his mother's conceiving him.

Jesus Christ flatly contradicted your interpretation, saying, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. (Mark 10:14).

When we are born, we are all like Adam before he sinned.  Once we grow and reach a level of maturity that we can understand what it means to obey or disobey God's commandments, rules and laws and we choose to disobey, as did Adam,  then we sin. Until then we are innocent, just as was Adam, before he chose to disobey.

Possessing a sinful nature is not in itself a sin.  Moreover, there is no mention of a sinful nature in the whole of the Bible except in the NIV.  And that is a corruption of translation of the Greek word σάρξ [sarx] which means "flesh" or "human nature" and nothing more than that. And besides if mankind sins due to a "sinful nature" and Adam didn't have such a sinful nature, then why did he sin?  Whatever else a sinful nature might be, it is really nothing more than the tendency of a human being to sin, to choose to disobey God's laws, rules, commands, etc.  To sin is to choose wrongly. 
 
Seriously, you people and your perverse teaching on Original Sin have to make up all manner of nonsensical theological eisegesis to support it. The very idea of Original Sin is an affront to God, or even more an outright heresy.
The sin there was not David's; but rather the sin was in his mother's conceiving him.

Jesus Christ flatly contradicted your interpretation, saying, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. (Mark 10:14).

Adam was not born at all. He was created by God perfect. He sinned and fell from that perfection under the influence of the fallen one himself. This changed him, before he ever had children. We are the descendants of that changed man, not Adam before the fall. He needed no salvation at creation, everyone born to him or any of his offspring need salvation. This is because sin and death enters into the world and humanity through Adam. Who was a changed man after sin, and needed salvation just as the rest of us do now also.

God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden and away from the tree of life, because of the change which took place within them after they sinned. A change they passed on to all of humanity. Apart from the salvation offered through Christ Jesus our Lord, we are the children of the evil one, who our parents chose to believe and follow, over and above God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

All of humanity needs deliverance from bondage to the evil one. Which is found in Christ Jesus alone. We are not born guilty of our parents sins, but we are born with inherited sinful natures. Apart from Christ, doomed to sin and death. Adam was not created in this condition, he chose it, and now we are born and live with the consequences of that choice.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

4WD & A FEW OTHER RESPONDERS:

   We all were born in an environment of sin, but that did not make us sinners. As a goodnight giggle, if 4WD, especially 4WD, had been born in a cabbage patch, that would not have made him a cabbage-head—at least, I don't think it would have! Feel free to disagree.

Buff

But Buff, it was you, not me, who said

Humanity bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. All of us are plagued with it.

So yes, according to you, you bequeathed sin from Adam and Eve. Thus born in a sin patch made you a sin-head.

 It wasn't sin that was bequeathed. It was humanity. It was the ability to choose to sin that was bequeathed to us.

That is true. However I am not sure what you mean by perfect. He was created with the ability to choose right from wrong.  He was created with the ability to sin.  Well yes it did change him.  However that change was his spirit, not his body.  There was no change in his DNA.  That is the same for us.  When we are born, we are perfect; we are without sin; our spirits are not dead in trespasses and sin. Once we sin, then we, like Adam, are changed; we die spiritually, just like Adam did. Jesus spoke to that on several occasions, noting that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are such as the little children (Mark 10:14).  The Kingdom of Heaven does not belong to those who are [spiritually] dead in trespasses and sin.  It belongs to those who are spiritually alive.  Paul acknowledged that as well when he said, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.  And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:4-7). Amo, we do not need salvation from the sins of anyone else.  You do not need to be saved from the sins of your father or mother.  The entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 is the declaration that the soul who sins will die. Read that chapter.  I like how the NIV interprets Verse 20 where it says specifically, that The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.  This is true for you and I and it was true for Adam's children.You have to ask yourself, if Adam was created perfect in the way you claim, then why was the Tree of Life in the Garden in the first place. If Adam, as God created him, was not subject to physical death, there would have been no need for that tree.  It was there to prevent physical death of Adam as created.That is absolutely false. I have just shown you that the entire chapter in Ezekiel is devoted to rejecting that lie: The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "'The parents eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. NO! NO@ NO! First of all, having a sinful nature is not sinful; that is, being human is not a sin. The tendency to sin is not sin.  Second, if Adam had no sinful nature, then why did he sin? And after all, what is a "sinful nature"?  It is nothing more than being human with the ability to know and understand the difference between right and wrong.  That ability is not a sin.  Choosing to do wrong is the sin.  That was Adam's sin.  That is our sin.  Adam died spiritually when he sinned; we died spiritually when we sinned. The soul who sins will die.

We agree, that children are not guilty of their parents sins, or parents of their children's. Scripture plainly states this fact.

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.........................
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The above scriptures are truth, so are the following scriptures.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So are the following.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All, even children have sinned. As soon as they are born they start sinning. The fact that they do not yet understand the difference between sin and righteousness, or right and wrong, does not mean they do not sin. They do. They absolutely will, because they are sinners, born of a sinner. Until they understand right and wrong, they will sin, though they will not be held accountable before they understand right and wrong. This is because sin is not just this or that action, but rather a state of mind. We are born with a state of mind that needs to be corrected.

Adam was not created with this state of mind, as he knew exactly who God was, and who he was in relation to God. We are not like Adam before the fall at all, when we are born. He was created in the image of God, and in the very presence of God, whom he saw and spoke with freely. There is more to this, than we presently understand, as we shall be changed when God returns partially because we will then see Him as He is.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Adam was created in the image of God and was like Him. We are not born like Him, we must be born again to be like Him. Of course, I am not sure how one would or could view all of this from an evolutionary view, rather than a creation view. That would certainly change the dynamics of what I am speaking of. If Adam in fact evolved from lower life forms, well, that changes everything of course. I would have to rethink the matter outside of scriptural testimony. Since that would mean of course that Adam also went through a very long period of time before he understood the difference between right or wrong or even God or not.

In any case, children are sinners, just not held accountable as adults until the issues can be understood and personally addressed or not. I know I was a sinner as a child for sure in any case.

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The main difference between children and adults is humility in being taught. Children are more willing to be taught than us adults, as they have so very much to learn. At some point though, we begin to think we know enough to be above learning, to our own detriment. This is not so with children. Though having had a daughter and a son, it became obvious to me, that some children are far more willing to learn humbly than others. I'm pretty sure I fell into the latter category.

All that says that you have almost no idea at all about what is sin.  And that is really too bad.
The main difference between children and adults is that adults know right from wrong; children do not.

You may have been brighter than any child I have ever come across and may have known right from wrong immediately out of the womb; but, frankly, I rather doubt that.

You do always misunderstand and or twist my words. If you do not understand that we are born sinners, then I am not the one who has no idea what sin is. Nevertheless, so be it unto you, as you desire and choose.

Reformer, 4WD is correct, but he is half right.

The wages of sin is death, both our spirits and our physical body, the body of sin AND DEATH.

When We say a man is dead in sins and trespasses, we mean it in this sense: Man is dead to righteousness, understanding, and the true understanding of God. Man/flesh is very much alive to sin and darkness, and total ignorance of God's ways and truths.

In this sense, you should agree.

4WD, it is a very disgusting view of MAN, but very true according to the words of God, who gives testimony to man's every thought being evil continuously. Per Genesis 6.

But according to the faulty concept of Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity, all of that is exactly as God caused it to be. How could it be otherwise?

Even with the grace of God and one is a child of God, we all struggle with our thought life, the very best among God's children, per Paul in Romans 7.

How is it a struggle if that is how we were made? God made Adam, who was a failure, and put into play the process of procreation. That process, according to Original Sin, condemns Adam's descendants to be the failure that Adam was.  And even that had to be God's design. God produced the process of procreation.

God is good, pure, and perfect spiritual in the truest sense of those words. Man is unjust, though created upright and given all he needed to continue in that state in which he was created. Adam in his created righteousness was our federal head in representing us before God's holy law~which is far superior for us standing on our own merits in our fallen condition having the image of Adam's fallen nature per conception.

What do you mean by "Adam in his created righteousness"?  He sinned.  How righteous is that?  That is the very definition of unrighteousness.  Obviously, as our "federal head", Adam was a total failure.  Why would God put such an incompetent in charge?

Again, what Adam did not have was God securing him in the state in which he was created. CONSIDER: God ALONE is immutable, a created being cannot be so! Selah.

And here we have your assessment of the real problem. All that was needed to prevent the results that "man's every thought being evil continuously" was that God secure Adam in the state in which he was created.  Obviously that was not something that Adam had any control over.  That was not Adam's failure; that was God's failure. All of the evil in the world could have been avoided if God had simply secured Adam in the state in which he was created. God's plan  -- God's failure.

Where the law abounds, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND IN Jesus Christ........... we WERE secured to enter into life by his perfect obedience , NOT our! This is the blessed gospel news that few truly grasp a hold of! So sad.

None of that is blessed news for the poor schlock who was a born sinner destined to eternal condemnation and given no recourse to change it.

4WD:

    Your Reply #51 is good, very good. You and I may disagree on who is a cabbage-head and who is a sin-head, but we both agree babies are born innocent, not sinners.

    Oh, yes, I know, you have assumed from my quoting Romans that I included babies as being born in sin, therefore sinners, but never in my life have I believed or affirmed that view. But you still question my affirmation!

    I'm trying to maintain my integrity, if you will let me! It is not wise to try to maneuver someone else's conception of an issue.

Buff [Cabbage Patch Farmer]

4WD:

   You very well know the answer to that question, inasmuch as you now know my position, and probably have known it all along. But just in case you DO NOT know the answer, I will assist you:

    All mentally mature, or even semi-mentally mature. In other words, old enough to know and adopt sin. No one knows the exact age of every person, except God.

Now try to get a full night's sleep,

Buff

4WD:

   You very well know the answer to that question, inasmuch as you now know my position, and probably have known it all along. But just in case you DO NOT know the answer, I will assist you:

    All mentally mature, or even semi-mentally mature. In other words, old enough to know and adopt sin. No one knows the exact age of every person, except God.

Now try to get a full night's sleep,

Buff

I would expect that the implication of the word bequeath indicates an inheritance. I do not consider that we have been bequeathed the sin of Adam and Eve.  We have been bequeathed the humanity of Adam and Eve.

And for your information, the problem is not my sleep, rather it is your choice of words.  And besides, sometimes your ideas are  more than a little strange so it is not always clear what your base theology really is.