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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Miz KJV Only on Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:44:35

Title: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: Miz KJV Only on Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 07:44:35
Isaiah 25:9

And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

AMEN
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu Apr 30, 2020 - 10:14:11
Hi Miz KJV,

You haven’t expounded on this verse, but this is one of my favorite passages about the bodily resurrection of the saints.  It’s an echo of Job’s almost identical expression of faith in Job 14:13-15.

“O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!  If a man die, shall he live again?  All the days of my appointed time WILL I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME” (or “till I am made again” in the LXX).   “Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thy hands.”

God has a fervent desire to restore the work of His hands - the bodies of the saints - and to “make again” those saints’ bodily forms; the final time into a changed, renovated, incorruptible state by the resurrection of those physical bodies.  This is the final stage of our complete salvation inheritance that every saint has waited for; to be face-to-face with our Lord forevermore in our resurrected body forms made incorruptible.

This Isaiah 25:9 prophecy mentioned a particular day - “in THAT day” - which is linked to other specific events in the context  of this prophecy.  These other specific events tell us when this particular resurrection  prophecy was already fulfilled.
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Fri May 01, 2020 - 02:14:26
Greetings Miz and 3 Resurrections,
Quote
Isaiah 25:9[/b] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
AMEN
I have dropped the “KJV only” portion of your title as I believe the KJV is an excellent translation, but we need to consider other translations to correct the KJV in various places, such as some words and the meaning of some verses. Yes I agree, Isaiah 25:9 is a very interesting verse. The immediate context teaches a number of things including the resurrection and reward of the faithful.
 Isaiah 25:6–9 (KJV): 6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Another teaching in the above is that at the return of Jesus, he will not only raise and reward the past faithful, but he will also convert the mortal nations and they will become subjects of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, when Jesus sits upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem. This is also taught in Isaiah’s main opening vision:
 Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
The visions of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14 are like two bookends of the prophets, and such verses as Isaiah 25:9 give important and interesting additional detail.
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This Isaiah 25:9 prophecy mentioned a particular day - “in THAT day” - which is linked to other specific events in the context of this prophecy. These other specific events tell us when this particular resurrection prophecy was already fulfilled.
I am not sure what you are saying in the last Phrase as I believe the resurrection is still future.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri May 01, 2020 - 04:55:27
Hi Trevor,

A bit of personal info first by way of explanation for my comment.

From infancy forward, my Christian training was in schools that were KJV ONLY, and later on in 2 other churches that taught the same.  Therefore, for more than 40 years of my life as a believer, up until 7 years ago, I memorized and studied nothing else.  At that point, I began studying an Interlinear KJV with the Greek written underneath it, and discovered to my surprise that the KJV blurred the meaning of most of scripture’s eschatology by almost always giving a generic translation of the word “mello”.   This unfortunately erased the temporal imminence factor of most verses teaching a resurrection that was “ABOUT TO HAPPEN” in those first-century days, as Christ, Paul, James, Jude, Peter, Luke, and John all taught.  So, you and I share the view that the KJV is an excellent translation, but that other translations should also be consulted for clarity.

Isaiah’s apocalypse as well as the Zechariah 12-14 chapters both describe the AD 66-70 period with the fall of Jerusalem and its temple, as well as a bodily return of Christ and a resurrection event taking place at that time, “in THAT day”.  As my username indicates, I believe God has designed 3 bodily resurrections over the span of human history that fulfill the matching type of the 3 required OT harvest feast celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. 

Two of these resurrection events with bodies coming out of the dust of the grave are already past history (Christ and the Matt. 27:52-53 First-fruits saints raised in AD 33 at Passover, and also the AD 70 resurrection on that year’s Pentecost day).  We now await a THIRD resurrection in our future at the time of year when the Feast of Tabernacles would have ordinarily been celebrated in the OT.  This is the single, lone remaining feast of the 3 formerly-required OT feasts that Zechariah 14:15-16 highlights for remembrance during the years after the prophesied AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple.
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Fri May 01, 2020 - 05:31:32
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
Isaiah’s apocalypse as well as the Zechariah 12-14 chapters both describe the AD 66-70 period with the fall of Jerusalem and its temple, as well as a bodily return of Christ and a resurrection event taking place at that time, “in THAT day”.
I appreciate the clarification. I only believe in the resurrection at the return of Christ in the future, not an additional resurrection in AD66-70. Also for example I understand the events of Zechariah 14 are future describing some of the events leading up to and including the 1000 year Kingdom of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri May 01, 2020 - 07:42:56
Hi Trevor,

Totally understand why people reject this at first encounter.  It runs counter to everything we have ever been taught.  But truly, there is no other explanation for Paul telling Felix around AD 58 that “there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:15, 25), and for telling Timothy around AD 67 that God was “...ABOUT TO JUDGE the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” (I Timothy 4:1).  This was to be a judgment and resurrection in PAUL’S, TIMOTHY’S, and FELIX’S near future - not the judgment and resurrection we can expect in our own future.

You as well as most others may not believe that God planned 3 resurrection events, but that doesn’t change scripture when it speaks about them.

And please let me know where in Zechariah  that you see a thousand year period being spoken of.  John let us know in Rev. 12:12 that the thousand year millennium was already over by the time he was writing Revelation, because he said that the Devil was presently at that time already loosed in the world for a “short time”.  This “short time” was the same as the “little season” of the Devil’s loosing that was supposed to occur AFTER the 1,000 years had expired, according to Rev. 20:7.  This tells us that the literal 1,000-year millennium is long gone.
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Fri May 01, 2020 - 08:03:55
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
Totally understand why people reject this at first encounter.  It runs counter to everything we have ever been taught.  But truly, there is no other explanation for Paul telling Felix around AD 58 that “there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:15, 25), and for telling Timothy around AD 67 that God was “...ABOUT TO JUDGE the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” (I Timothy 4:1). 
I accept the concept that Jesus came in a sense in AD 70, but I believe that this was only in the sense that he came by means of the Roman army to overthrow Jerusalem and the Temple and worship. I look forward to the future fulfilment of both 2 Timothy 4:1, 6-8 and Zechariah 14. There has not been the earthquake, the Mount of Olives has not been split, the remnant of the nations that fought against Jerusalem have not come up to Jerusalem year by year, and there has not been a drought on any of these particular nations that has not come up. You have a very different assessment of the details in the Book of Revelation, and to base your position on this is not very persuasive from my perspective. When have the faithful been kings and priests for 1000 years, please give the dates and details. Is your view of the 3 resurrections held by your fellowship (ie more than 20-40 people) or is this your unique view? First time for everything. I have a mate that has a number of unique views on prophecy.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri May 01, 2020 - 10:16:29
Hey again Trevor,

Lots of points raised there...and most I have covered in other posts at some length. 

There is archaeological proof that the deep layer of rubble currently lying in the Kidron Valley dates from 2 earthquakes - one dated in King Uzziah’s day, and one from around the AD 70 period when an earthquake broke apart the crest of the Mount of Olives and dislodged landslide material that collected in the Kidron Valley, blocking it up as far as Azal (just as prophesied in the LXX version of Zechariah 14:4-5). 

This earthquake landslide rubble was Christ’s “calling card”, left from His AD 70 Pentecost-day return when He stood on that Mount of Olives to gather all His resurrected saints that had died up until then, and bring them with Him back to heaven.

You are expecting a literal drought on the nations with no rainfall from the Zechariah 24 prophecy, but that is a meaningless threat for the current nation of Egypt which receives practically zero rainfall per year anyway.  Rather, I take this Zechariah 14:18-19 reference to “Egypt” having no rain to be Jerusalem, which is “spiritually called Sodom and EGYPT” in Rev. 11:8. 

This threat of “no rain” is to be understood in the sense that Hosea 10:12 and Isaiah 45:8 give to it - meaning righteousness being poured down from heaven, bringing forth the blessing of salvation.  To have “no rain” is to not have the blessing of righteousness bringing salvation.

As for the millennium dates you requested, they are from Solomon’s Temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC until AD 33 when the “First Resurrection” of Rev. 20:5’s “remnant of the dead” came to life along with the risen Christ.  This millennium was not a time limit put upon CHRIST reigning, but a time limit put upon SATAN and the amount of deception he could perform among the nations during that literal thousand years.

The millennium was composed of a literal thousand years of a physical Temple worship system designed by God to prefigure Christ - the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple set up with Him as the “chief cornerstone” on His resurrection-day ascension in AD 33.

The fame of Solomon’s temple and his wisdom at the beginning of this millennium, as well as the upsurge in the prophets’ combined ministries, served to spread the knowledge of Israel’s God throughout the nations of the world during those 1,000 years.  The nations may have continued to act in a sinful manner, but they could no longer claim ignorance as an excuse after Satan’s curbed deception.

As for the righteous “remnant of the dead” (the resurrected Matt. 27:52-53 saints) who had “lived and reigned with Christ” at some time during those 1,000 years, this is no different than any believer “reigning in life by one, Jesus Christ” (as in Romans  5:17).  It just means that during each of their natural lifetimes as believers while on this earth (from 968/967 BC through AD 33) that the “remnant of the dead” during their lifetime had shared in the benefits of Christ’s reign that suppressed Satan’s ability to deceive the nations of the world during that period.

Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Fri May 01, 2020 - 16:05:56
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
This earthquake landslide rubble was Christ’s “calling card”, left from His AD 70 Pentecost-day return when He stood on that Mount of Olives to gather all His resurrected saints that had died up until then, and bring them with Him back to heaven.
To repeat despite your latest explanation, I look forward to the future fulfilment of both 2 Timothy 4:1, 6-8 and Zechariah 14. I do not believe in heaven going, but the inheritance of the earth with Abraham and Christ Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:8-9,16,26-29. I ask again, Is your view of the 3 resurrections held by your fellowship (ie more than 20-40 people) or is this your unique view? First time for everything. I have a mate that has a number of unique views on prophecy.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun May 10, 2020 - 23:59:24
Hi again TrevorL,

Since “there is nothing new under the sun”, then there is no possible way that this view of 3 resurrection events should be original to me. 

But as for my perhaps learning this from a church fellowship...no, that is not the source.  I left a 16-year membership in a Southern Baptist Church almost 5 years ago, since the leadership really didn’t have much time or interest in sitting down to hash out eschatology issues with me.  It felt too much like wearing duct tape to the Bible study groups.  I became “weary of forbearing” and could no longer stay a member there, especially since my spouse was vehemently anti-Preterist, and still considers me a heretic with perverted doctrine.  It was best to leave so that our polarized differences would not be disruptive to the congregation, who deserved to have an example of a unified leadership team that was not divided on key issues at the home level.

I have laid the trusting hand of a child on the promise in Proverbs 28:5, that “...they that seek the Lord understand all things.”  Above all things, my chief desire is to seek the Lord and the truth revealed in the book He gave us - no matter how untraditional it may be, or how long it takes me to learn it.   I have pleaded with Him to feed me nothing but the truth, because there have been so many preachers I have sat under who taught so much that was not true, and led me to worry and despair.  I want to know what God has done in past history, and in particular, WHEN He did those things.

As a result of listening for God’s still, small voice, I have been blessed with a sense of utter peace about God’s eternal purpose for this world, and a complete confidence that His detailed plan for the ages will prevail for the ultimate good of His kingdom and His glory. 

And I, too, do not believe we are currently destined for a “heaven going” by our leaving the planet at the close of human history with its final resurrection.  But that is because all the verses like those about a “rapture” of the resurrected saints, and Christ telling the disciples that He would “receive you unto Myself” by bringing them with Him back to heaven -  these verses were already fulfilled in the second coming of Christ in AD 70’s resurrection.

Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Tue May 12, 2020 - 00:25:28
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
And I, too, do not believe we are currently destined for a “heaven going” by our leaving the planet at the close of human history with its final resurrection. But that is because all the verses like those about a “rapture” of the resurrected saints, and Christ telling the disciples that He would “receive you unto Myself” by bringing them with Him back to heaven - these verses were already fulfilled in the second coming of Christ in AD 70’s resurrection.
I imagine having a Baptist background that you would need to accommodate these views with heaven going. Heaven going at death a main teaching of the Baptists and they have a number of different views of what happens when Jesus returns. I do not believe in heaven going, but in the return of Jesus to the earth and the resurrection of the dead to rule with Jesus upon the earth. I hope you come to a better understanding of the teaching concerning AD 70, but I do admit that some Scriptures on this are difficult, having some dual application to AD 70 and the future events concerning the return of Jesus, for example the Olivet prophecy.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:39:12
Hey again TrevorL,

During the past 7 years and more of the most intense Bible study I’ve ever done in my life, I have put every bit of my former training from my youth and adulthood under the magnifying glass for inspection.  I am not brand loyal at the expense of truth.  If it’s not in sync with the truth in scripture - into the trash it goes.

I have found that it is not a case of EITHER a “Heaven going” OR a “ruling on earth with Christ” for the resurrected saints.  It’s BOTH, but on two separate occasions of an AD 70 resurrection (with Christ prophesying a transport to heaven for them), and a future resurrection for us (with our remaining with Christ here on earth.  This is consistent with God’s statements that “the earth abideth  forever”, and that He “formed it to be inhabited”).
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Wed May 13, 2020 - 00:51:27
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
I have found that it is not a case of EITHER a “Heaven going” OR a “ruling on earth with Christ” for the resurrected saints.
I endorse the second but disagree with heaven going. I am not sure whether you believe that man has an immortal soul and goes to heaven at death, or your view of heaven going is the resurrection of the body and going to heaven in AD 70. I would like to mention one Scripture that is used by many including Baptists in support of heaven going.
 John 14:1–3 (KJV): 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This is usually understood as teaching heaven going. The word translated “mansions” in the KJV is translated “rooms” or “dwelling places” in some modern translations. Another perspective on the “Father’s house” is that it is not talking about God’s house in heaven, but God’s spiritual house:
 Hebrews 3:1–6 (KJV): 1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Jesus states in John 14:3 that he will return, but it does not say that he will then take the faithful to heaven. They will be with him on the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Wed May 13, 2020 - 11:49:19
Hi TrevorL,

I believe a “Heaven going” by the resurrected saints being “caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” is being taught in I Thess. 4.  This was necessary for the AD 70 resurrected saints for that second resurrection event (when Christ “received them unto Himself”), but it will not be necessary for us in the third resurrection in our future, since I believe He will remain on this planet with us at that time after purging any remnants of wicked humanity out of it.

The main goal that completes our entire salvation inheritance in Christ is for us to be physically, bodily present with Christ in a face-to-face fellowship with immortal souls and a body made incorruptible so that it will never die again. 

It is not enough that our souls made  immortal are united with Him in heaven after death.  Our individual bodies must also be reunited in His presence with our souls made immortal, or death has won a partial victory over us.  Besides, if the believers’ relationship with Christ is compared to a marriage, then a physical face-to-face fellowship in Christ’s presence is an absolute necessity.

The phrase “RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF” in John 14:3 is a specific reference to Christ transporting the resurrected saints’ bodies to heaven back in AD 70 for this necessary “face-to-face” fellowship.  However, it was NOT a translation of the LIVING saints at that time - a presumed doctrine that has mistakenly been taught as truth from the I Thess. 4 text.

I am with you on the misunderstood  “mansions” thing, though.  I’m afraid too many believers are fantasizing about a glorious piece of real estate property being presently developed for them in heaven.
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Wed May 13, 2020 - 23:49:35
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
The phrase “RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF” in John 14:3 is a specific reference to Christ transporting the resurrected saints’ bodies to heaven …
I do not believe Jesus is talking about going to heaven in John 14:1-3, rather it is part of a theme, and part of this is stated in the following:
 John 12:23–26 (KJV): 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Jesus is speaking of his impending death, but as a result others will be united with him, as he says that they will be where Jesus says “where I am”. This position is not in heaven or the earth, but he is speaking of spiritual status, a relationship with God, in fellowship with God and with Jesus, and with sins forgiven through the grace offered as a result of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus was not going to heaven to prepare a position for them in the spiritual Temple, the House of God. He was going to be crucified and then he would return and receive them unto himself.
 John 14:1–6 (KJV): 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The immediate context of John 14 is not speaking about going to heaven, as Jesus is speaking about his impending trial and crucifixion:
 John 13:36–38 (KJV): 36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. 37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake. 38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
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The main goal that completes our entire salvation inheritance in Christ is for us to be physically, bodily present with Christ in a face-to-face fellowship with immortal souls and a body made incorruptible so that it will never die again.
I do not believe in immortals souls, but that we return to the dust and await the resurrection at the future return of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu May 14, 2020 - 10:54:54
Sounds as if you are fairly well set in your view, TrevorL, so I doubt what I write would change that. 

What you have written, though, does not address why the Apostle Paul spoke about that particular part of the saints being “present with the Lord”, once it was absent from the body in II Cor. 5:6-9.  What is that particular part, except for the spirit which departs the body at death?  The “spirit which returns to God that gave it”?

Didn’t Christ debate this point about the continual living state of the righteous with His peers, when He said in Matt. 22:31-32 that God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING?  If God at the burning bush told Moses that He was then presently the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then He was tacitly arguing for the continual living existence of the souls of all these patriarchs at that time.  In other words, their immortal souls were all living, even though their bodies were dead and resting in the grave, awaiting the bodily resurrection.

Christ is the one described as being the ONLY ONE having immortality (I Tim. 6:16), but anyone “IN Christ” also has that immortality of Christ imputed to their spirits.  Something that does NOT describe the spirits of the ungodly.

There WAS a particular transition point in time, however, when those living spirits of all the righteous were given admittance to heaven and God’s presence, instead of being retained in Paradise.  I believe this transition point was after Christ’s resurrection-day ascension, when God made Christ our heavenly high priest by accepting His blood sacrifice on heaven’s mercy seat.

This transition point of when the immortal spirits of the righteous were given admittance to heaven in AD 33 was spoken of in Rev. 14:13.  The context (v. 14-16) was speaking of the one like the Son of Man with a single crown (of His newly-established high priesthood) harvesting that dried harvest from the earth (the Matthew 27: 52-53 resurrected saints raised with Christ).

John repeats the words given him from heaven saying, “Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord FROM HENCEFORTH” (meaning this AD 33 resurrection harvest by the crowned Son of Man is the transition point), “Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” 

Follow them where?  I believe it means that their works followed the spirits of the righteous with them to heaven, with Christ’s imputed righteousness as the ultimate high priest making these works - as well as the spirits of the saints - acceptable in God’s presence.

“FROM HENCEFORTH”, (ever since AD 33 and Christ taking the spirits of the righteous with Him out of Paradise to heaven), the spirits of those “dead that died in the Lord” were then blessed, and continue to be blessed by going directly to heaven at death instead of waiting in Paradise.  Once in heaven’s realm, these righteous immortal spirits awaited the bodily resurrection in AD 70, and since that year, the immortal spirits of the righteous dead now in heaven await the final third resurrection in our future.

As I said, though, Christ the church’s own bridegroom is not content with only the spirits of the righteous in his presence.  He designed for their resurrected bodies to be made incorruptible as well so that they could “BEHOLD HIS GLORY” with their own resurrected eyes. 

John 17:24 speaks of Christ’s earnest desire for this full reunion of body and spirit in His presence in heaven.  He prayed at the Last Supper, “ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may BEHOLD MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” 

Bodily, Christ’s glorified, resurrected form is present now in heaven.  Wherever He is, there is where the resurrected saints are supposed to be in His presence, in full face-to-face fellowship.  Nothing less than this completes our full salvation inheritance.

Not your typical explanation, I know...
Title: Re: Isaiah 25:9
Post by: TrevorL on Thu May 14, 2020 - 22:36:09
Greetings again 3 Resurrections,
Quote
Sounds as if you are fairly well set in your view, TrevorL, so I doubt what I write would change that.
Well yes, I have examined other perspectives, but I have held on to what I have been taught and confirmed in my own personal study. Nevertheless, I will give a brief response to each part of your response concerning the immortality of the soul.
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What you have written, though, does not address why the Apostle Paul spoke about that particular part of the saints being “present with the Lord”, once it was absent from the body in II Cor. 5:6-9. What is that particular part, except for the spirit which departs the body at death?  The “spirit which returns to God that gave it”?
I could give a more thorough response on the whole passage, but it does talk about being clothed with the house from heaven and that he does not want to be unclothed, (a supposed immortal soul floating off to heaven and leaving the body behind???), but that mortality might be swallowed up of life, that is the change of the body from mortality to immortality.
 2 Corinthians 5:2–4 (KJV): 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul, when he was about to depart this mortal life, did not speak about going to heaven, but he spoke about the Judgement and the Kingdom and the return of Jesus to give him a crown of righteousness, and this is the hope of all such that love his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
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Didn’t Christ debate this point about the continual living state of the righteous with His peers, when He said in Matt. 22:31-32 that God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING? If God at the burning bush told Moses that He was then presently the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then He was tacitly arguing for the continual living existence of the souls of all these patriarchs at that time. In other words, their immortal souls were all living, even though their bodies were dead and resting in the grave, awaiting the bodily resurrection.
Jesus used the statement at the burning bush to prove the resurrection, not immortal souls in heaven. Abraham was not dead and gone, as the Sadducees advocated, but Abraham was dead and awaiting the resurrection.
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Christ is the one described as being the ONLY ONE having immortality (I Tim. 6:16), but anyone “IN Christ” also has that immortality of Christ imputed to their spirits. Something that does NOT describe the spirits of the ungodly.
Only in prospect.
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There WAS a particular transition point in time, however, when those living spirits of all the righteous were given admittance to heaven and God’s presence, instead of being retained in Paradise. I believe this transition point was after Christ’s resurrection-day ascension, when God made Christ our heavenly high priest by accepting His blood sacrifice on heaven’s mercy seat.
The Paradise of the Bible is the Garden of Eden restored, not a place under the earth. The thief on the cross was promised to be with Christ on the day when he would come in His Kingdom, not that very day. Refer the punctuation in the Companion Bible.
 Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Isaiah 35:1–2 (KJV): 1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
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John 17:24 speaks of Christ’s earnest desire for this full reunion of body and spirit in His presence in heaven. He prayed at the Last Supper, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may BEHOLD MY GLORY, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
I have not commented on the intervening 5 paragraphs, but will do so if you suggest they are essential. Jesus revealed both moral glory John 1:14, he was full of grace and truth, and physical glory when he was transfigured. Peter states that this vision of glory is an indication of the fact that Jesus will return in glory. The Apostles beheld the fullness of Christ’s moral glory in the crucifixion and resurrection. They will behold the physical glory when he returns.
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Bodily, Christ’s glorified, resurrected form is present now in heaven. Wherever He is, there is where the resurrected saints are supposed to be in His presence, in full face-to-face fellowship. Nothing less than this completes our full salvation inheritance.
I look to the return of Jesus, and that is when we will see him.
 1 John 3:1–3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Again there is no mention of seeing Jesus when (that is, if???) we go to heaven.
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Not your typical explanation, I know...
Yes, I agree, your particular view seems to be unique. From my perspective, there is a wide range of opinion amongst the Baptists concerning some aspects of these concepts. Most of them have a principal emphasis on heaven going at death, and this is the basis of the confusion on some other aspects.

Kind regards
Trevor