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Offline Reformer

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Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« on: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 17:41:52 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies In
Matthew 24 & Luke 21

    Are they referring to the second and final advent of the Lord or the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State? It would not be fair to address this controversy without saying that everything written in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 pertains to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State. However, within these warnings and prophecies are a few verses that need further explanation, lest some of you think I am overlooking a few vital components. Please note the symbolisms.
 
    “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matthew 24:30-31].
 
1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.
 
2] “His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards.
 
3] The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond.
 
4] The “gathering of His elect” were the Gentiles who had been chosen for salvation, in place of the rebellious Jews.
 
5] It should be obvious to the logistic mind that the following warnings by Jesus relate to the destruction of Jerusalem, not to His second and final coming.
 
   Verses 17 & 18: “Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.” Why? Because their time to escape the Roman Army would be limited.
 
   Verse 19: “And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” Why? To flee the Roman Army under such circumstances would almost be impossible.
 
    Verse 20: “Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [Verse 15].
 
    Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrible calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee, as noted in verse 15 of Matthew
 
    I think it is safe to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 69-70.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 17:46:33 by Reformer »

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Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« on: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 17:41:52 »

Online RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 04:16:51 »
    I think it is safe to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 69-70.
I KNOW that it is not as safe as you believe, not even close.

I may have to come back and post my reasons for being almost 100% sure that I can prove that your post is filled with a serious corruption of God's word. It was Jesus Christ and Paul as far as that goes when speaking on this very subject gave us a WARNING of let NO MAN deceive you by any means, and I take those warnings very serious as we all should.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Thessalonians 2:3~"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Again~
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:4~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."
Sir, let me prove to you that Matthew 24; Mark 13 nor Luke 21 does not say ONE WORD about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D.~that has to be FORCE into those scriptures~even more than that..... If I had never heard of the destruction of the Jewish nation by the Romans, then I would have never even known it, for it is certainly not in the scriptures~folks who teach that lie MUST depend on  "extra-biblical" information in order to even give that theory some believable help~but the scriptures are their OWN interpreter and truth is HIDDEN THEREIN not outside of the holy scriptures.

Let me start to prove that you are being used by the Devil himself in leaving God's people UNPREPARED for the last days of this world that Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John all spoke to us about.

1. Sir, Matthew 24 is NOT by itself, but INCLUDES Matthew 25 as ONE DISCOURSE SPOKEN CONCERNING THE SAME SUBJECT! Whatever is mention in Matthew 24 is CONTINUED over into Matthew 25~you can try to prove to me that this is not so, but the burden of proof is upon your shoulder NOT MINE. Now, are you so bold as to deny this? Or, are you just going to go silent on me? Either way, you will be found to be in serious error concerning your post above~and error IT IS. Actually we do not need to depend on Matthew 25 to prove you to be in serious error, for Matthew 24 will do this for us.
Quote from: The disciples
Matthew 24:3~ "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
I take these questions at face value and the reason why I do is that I MUST DO THIS UNLESS one can take the scriptures and prove otherwise that they should be interpreted in a spiritual sense and based upon what follows in the latter part of Matthew 24 and Mathew 25 we see that we have no reason to believe that the disciples were not aking about the END OF THIS WORLD and JESUS' coming again. We know for sure that the disciples would have NO CLUE as to the coming destruction of their nations and the end of Judaism as Moses taught them. I have no problem with interpreting scriptures in a spiritual sense just as long as I have SCRIPTURES BACKING ME in doing so! All four schools of thought concerning eschatology use some of the scriptures in Matthew 24 in a spiritual sense, but the ones that can use scriptures to support them in doing so will be the very ones that have the truth.

I'm coming back with many more points to prove that you are in serious error.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 07:29:51 by RB »

Online RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 08:45:33 »
Are they referring to the second and final advent of the Lord or the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State?
Pray to tell me "how" the destruction of the nation of Israel is referring to the second and final advent of the Lord? Are you saying that there is not another coming of Jesus Christ in the scriptures? There is another coming of Jesus Christ where every eye shall see him, when he comes in great power and glory bringing everlasting destruction upon those that believe not, who had pleasure in unrighteousness, who hated those that live godly and righteous in this present evil world.

Reformer, I compare the 70 A.D. doctrine much like the secret rapture theory~IF I had never heard of either, then I would have never have known either by reading and trusting God's testimony as to the final authority concerning TRUTH.  Neither are in the teachings of the holy scriptures, but doctrines concocted by men who are void of light from heaven on such truths. We will not judge a man's state by his doctrines overall considered, unless they deny the doctrine of CHRIST, for knowledge, is NOT the litmus test of being a child of God, if so, then none of us could take comfort in that. Yet, we should labor as much as lieth in us to be free from error, for there is much evil that can come by embracing false doctrines, not only does it rob us of our peace, and comfort, but it will leave many unprepared for the evil days that ARE coming upon the saints of God when the beast shall make war with them and overcome them during the great tribulation spoken of by our Lord Jesus. Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:7; etc. It is the TIME when they shall flee from Judea~or the churches of God in the latter days of this world's history. To a degree should actually teach this.... just that you have not made the connecting dotes as of yet, or you have not figured out where the pieces of the spiritual puzzle go, as of yet.  I trust you will as we work our way through many points that we want to consider.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 17:41:52
1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.
You have been reading too many science fiction novels written by men who have not the Spirit of God teaching them.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:29-31~"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Your understanding will not fit into these scriptures using any hermeneutical gymnastics known by man~ boy do men try to force that meaning into these scriptures. There is not a single word in these scriptures that would LIMIT this to JEWISH mourning by being under attack by the Romans.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days~which corresponds with the little season of Revelation~ Christ shall come to destroy ALL OF HIS ENEMIES from the four winds of heaven, the mourners here are ALL OF THE WICKED then living when Jesus' comes again. The gathering together of his elect by the angels is ALL OF THE ELECT both living and those in the graves~of course it all takes place in a twinkling of an eye at the seventh and last trumpet.  The scriptures FOLLOWING these scriptures even add support to this as we shall consider later.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 17:41:52
2] “His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards.
Sorry, angels are spirits not men. God knows the difference between the two. Now, angels can take a form of man, I agree, yet almost every time in the scriptures where angels are mentioned, it always refers to the spirits that God created to be ministering spirits to those who are heirs of salvation through Christ. Man was made a little lower than the angels, so we are not them and they are not us.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 17:41:52
3] The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond.
Think with me for a moment~do you know that teaching makes a mockery out of CONTEXT! It does NOT fix with the overall context which is the ONLY means that we have in order to understand ANY discourse, book, etc.  where information goes from one person to another in order for them to UNDERSTAND what is being said...CONTEXT IS MASTER in all such words spoken, written, etc. Believing as God intended for these scriptures that these scriptures has reference ONLY to Jesus' second coming then there a perfect flow of this discourse between Jesus and his disciples. Besides in the disciple's epistles there is NOT ONE word in reference to the Jewish nation being destroyed as a coming of Christ, ALL of them spoke of his second coming as a REVELATION to the WHOLE WORLD! 1st Peter one; 2nd Thessalonians chapter one, etc.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 17:41:52
5] It should be obvious to the logistic mind that the following warnings by Jesus relate to the destruction of Jerusalem, not to His second and final coming.
Let us come and consider those later...RB
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 08:48:41 by RB »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 08:45:33 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 12:20:47 »

Legendary Member:

    You are indeed free to ascertain that I am in error. On the other side of the coin, I am equally free to conclude you are in error.

    I could easily detail your areas of dysfunctional theology, but the matter would encompass too much time on the part of both of us and too large a volume of study. Therefore, I will rest my oars and allow you to paddle on.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 12:20:47 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 12:30:53 »
Legendary Member:

    Oh, in the meantime, go to my Website under www.mindspring.com/~renewal and look for The 70 A. D. Scenario. The info I have there might be helpful.

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 12:34:25 by Reformer »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 12:30:53 »



Online RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 14:11:51 »
You are indeed free to ascertain that I am in error. On the other side of the coin, I am equally free to conclude you are in error.
Agreed~I would to God that you would at least defend what you are posting with the scriptures especially so if you believe you have the truth on this subject.
Quote from: Reformer on: Today at 12:20:47
I could easily detail your areas of dysfunctional theology,
If so, then you would do me a great service for I desire to know the truth and any error that I may have. But, I'm convinced it would not be as easy as you think., besides you should be willing to discuss this at length what better time to spend your time as long as there is progress being made on one side or the other.
Quote from: Reformer  on: Today at 12:20:47
Therefore, I will rest my oars and allow you to paddle on
If you had no desire to defend your doctrine, then why even post? I will not rest for the night cometh when none of us can work~I'll will do my Master's work while I can with his help.
Quote from: Reformer on: Today at 12:30:53
Oh, in the meantime, go to my Website under www.mindspring.com/~renewal and look for The 70 A. D. Scenario. The info I have there might be helpful.
Why should I do that when you refuse to discuss what you think is the truth? I have an article on Matthew 24 that is very large and in-depth, yet I'm not here pushing my writings but here to defend what I believe is the truth and you should do the same, or not post. Truly this is not about you or myself, but what does God's testimony say about such things. I will not let you off that easy. I'm posting more to help any who truly desires to know the truth and where I may have error~ I'm willing for my words to be tested with God's truth by anyone, it makes no difference to me~they would do me a great service in helping me to see more clearly if that be the case~but I have given myself to this very subject for almost fifty years and have great confidence that I have an overall solid understanding of the timeline of end time. 

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 14:11:51 »

Online RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #6 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 15:44:05 »
  Verse 20: “Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [Verse 15].
I addressed this very question just a few days ago here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/what-is-the-name-of-the-ant-christ-does-he-has-a-name-what-is-he-to-you/msg1055155047/#msg1055155047 Reply # 8

Question for you to answer, or anyone: "If indeed Jesus is speaking about the literal city of Jerusalem being destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. would it NOT be TOO LATE TO FLEE if indeed the Romans were already in the city and in the temple? There is so much in Matthew 24 that should be warning markers for us to know that that theory is a doctrine not taught here or anywhere else in the holy scriptures. IF indeed this is speaking of the Romans destroying their literal city then WHO CARES what day it is or what season it is, any person in their right mind would flee regardless Sabbath or no Sabbath, winter, or summer. anyone would flee. Again, if they are ALREADY THERE it would be TOO LATE to flee, which is one reason among others that we shall provide as to why we must look to the TRUE spiritual meaning behind what Jesus is teaching~USING other scriptures to support our understanding. 
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 15:47:35 by RB »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #7 on: Mon Feb 17, 2020 - 21:29:13 »

Legendary Member:

    "I would to God that you would at least defend what you are posting with the scriptures, especially so if you believe you have the truth on this subject."

    The column I posted covers your thirst—including the scriptures that relate to the same.

Take Care, Brother,

Buff

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 05:13:02 »
Reformer~I'm going to keep going with you or without you, for Matthew 24 is one of the most important portions of Jesus' teaching concerning the end-time events, which you have boldly proclaimed that these scriptures should be limited to 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. There are a few vital points in this discourse that covers Matthew 24 and 25 that proves your doctrine to be in serious error which makes it a corruption of Jesus' teachings, so we cannot sit idly by and say nothing, God forbid for if we did, then our time in this world would be useless and we would be just taking space and adding to our judgment for our stewardship of standing up for the truth.

2. From Reply #1
Quote
Matthew 24:1-3~"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
For now, we just want to focus on our Lord's statement concerning the temple the place of OT worship and the disciple's question after what Jesus said concerning the temple at Jerusalem.

"Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"~I will later prove that one stone not left upon another can only truly be fulfilled in the destruction of the religious side of Mystery Babylon.  Even today, in Jerusalem, part of the Temple wall is standing~https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall though this within itself is a small argument, nevertheless, it is still a standing testimony that Jesus was NOT speaking of the LITERAL TEMPLE in Jerusalem but another temple where professing NT Christians worship that shall TOTALLY be destroyed where it will be said perfectly there is NOT ONE stone upon another that shall NOT be thrown down. More on this later...
Quote
Matthew 24:3~"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
We KNOW that Jesus answers their question just as they asked them~our job is to search the scriptures and make the connecting pieces of this spiritual puzzel so that we can see clearly the end-time events just as Jesus said they would come to pass.

The disciples asked a direct and pointed question in reference to the end of the world, yet many think that he never addresses the question but wandered off in a doctrine that is nowhere supported in the scriptures~far be that our Lord did so and far be that we would even consider him doing so which we KNOW that he did not and would not.

The disciples knew what they were asking~when are you coming AGAIN and what are the signs of your coming. To even think that they were asking about their nation and when it would be destroyed, is working hard to force one's doctrine into these scriptures. Not only that, there is NOT even a HINT in the Acts of the apostles or their epistle that they were looking for their nation to be destroyed by the Romans, not one single hint which goes to prove a vital point~Jesus never taught them that their nation was going to be destroyed by the Romans and their temple.

By the fact that history said that it happened has NO scriptural significance, other than God was finished with that nation and its temple at the resurrection of his Son when the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom. God was finished with THAT temple at that point never to return~so whatever happens after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ were very insignificant as far a bible prophecy goes with earthly Jerusalem and its temple which were ONLY types of spiritual temple and the New Jerusalem that the prophets prophesied of good things to come.

So, before one runs with~"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." without carefully finish the total discourse in both chapters and labor to make the OVERALL CONTEXT have a perfect flow so that one can have a true spiritual understanding of what is being taught within the Olivet discourse. Too many folks take these words and extra-biblical help and force a doctrine into this discourse that is nowhere taught elsewhere in the scriptures~70 A.D. prophecy. Amazing that they can do so, but as I said above they do the same with the secret rapture theory!

Later....   
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 06:39:35 by RB »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 05:13:02 »

Online RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #9 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 07:56:05 »
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:4~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."
This is a sobering warning that every professing child of God should take earnest heed to. The safest haven that a believer can take his understanding from concerning biblical truths is to trust only the testimony of the scriptures and test every man by what is written therein. Once we allow ourselves to step outside of the word of God for truth, then we at once become a prime target to be deceived by the millions of false prophets both past, present, and any that may come thereafter~and coming they shall in great multitudes per this very Olivet Discourse between Christ and his disciples, which were:
Quote
Mark 13:3~And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

3. For further proof that this discourse is not speaking of the literal city of Jerusalem is seen here:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:5~"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Many shall come in my name~ that's an ambassador for Christ, or as HIS ministers~saying that Jesus is the Christ. Most all religions in this world today confess that very thing, but we know that it is another Jesus that they are preaching by many scriptural tests of them.

First, this did not happen in the literal city of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. for only the apostles of our Lord Jesus preach Christ and him crucified, and that there was another King, even Jesus Christ which the Jews vehemently rejected. Read the book of Acts and it will testify that ONLY the apostles preach Christ and their message was rejected with hatred. So, this verse within itself immediately into this discourse should be a red flag that the discourse has not one thing to do with the so-called 70 A.D. fable, and a Jewish fable it IS.

Secondly, it makes little where you go and to whom you listened to they are all preaching that Jesus is the Christ, yet by their overall doctrine they deny the very Christ that they are preaching. Without preaching that Jesus is the Christ, you would deceive NO ONE, so that point is essential to their survival as men of God, even though WE KNOW they are false apostles, minister, etc. I'm reminded of what both Peter and Jude said concerning these false prophets:
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 2:1~"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
Again:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Jude verse four~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ".
I will give one example of how these false prophets deny Jesus Christ that bought them. The scriptures are clear that Jesus purchased redemption for the CHURCH/HIS PEOPLE, yet all false prophets deny this truth and say that Jesus made salvation possible and that he DID NOT SECURE eternal life for any man, but every man MUST of his own free will made that decision for himself~IN THIS SENSE they deny the Lord that brought them~that is, they who profess to be HIS PEOPLE! Jesus Christ came to be a representative of his people and IN THEIR PLACE lived a perfect life of obedience and faith~ and that was imputeth HIS PEOPLE ACCOUNT before the law of God. When God look at us he sees ONLY the righteousness of his Son that was imputeth FREELY to us by his grace.

Preach these truths and it will bring hatred and persecution and tribulation to that person who does so.

So, in the latter days of the last days, this world will have an explosion of false prophets coming saying that Jesus is the Christ, but it is another Jesus, another gospel with another spirit, the spirit of antichrist!

Later....
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 12:26:59 by RB »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #10 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 14:02:57 »
I agree with Reformer's partial-preterist view about Scripture absolutely, positively speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. The rest about "the tribes of the earth will mourn" and they see Him coming on the clouds....... is really the fulfillment of Jesus' revelation to the tribes that He is/was the Son of God sitteth at the right hand of power, just as he told the high priest. That is where Reformer and I disagree. And not that it matters a bunch, but "he will gather his elect" in Matt.24, which of those would be the apostles, save John. God already had angels to do that gathering. The apostles are part of the "elect."

But RB, your eschatology is totally wrong. Your still using the "end of the world" instead of the end of the "age" which is in the proper Bible versions.

There is no "end of the world"  You sir, have been influenced by the wrong teachers. Does their dogmatism ever die? If not, then I hope some believers will escape from it and have peace and grace as their future!

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #11 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 14:33:00 »
I agree with Reformer's partial-preterist view about Scripture absolutely, positively speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.
Prove it using the CONTEXT of Matthew 24 and other related scriptures, such as: Daniel 7-12; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation.
Quote from:  lea on: Today at 14:02:57
But RB, your eschatology is totally wrong.
You will have more than a good opportuinty to prove me wrong by the time I'm finish. Looking forward to it without any fear whatsoever.
Quote from: lea on: Today at 14:02:57
There is no "end of the world"  You sir, have been influenced by the wrong teachers.
I trust no man~but look to the scriptures alone for my understanding. Let us see if your understanding will be supported by God's testimony, I'm pretty sure you will be found wanting and will be in for a rude awakening, if not in this world, then in THAT DAY when Jesus returns with his great army to destroy the wicked and take the kingdoms of this world and give them to his saints in the world to come

One more thing~Lea, give me ONE SCRIPTURE in Matthew 24 that you are convinced that Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the Jewish nation with their temple, in 70 A. D. just ONE. Give it your best shot. Two or three would be MUCH BETTER, for THEN every word shall be established for its truthfulness, according to Moses~but I'm going to be easy on you, one would do for now.   ::juggle::
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 14:47:36 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #12 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 15:52:14 »
Even today, in Jerusalem, part of the Temple wall is standing~https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall though this within itself is a small argument, nevertheless, it is still a standing testimony that Jesus was NOT speaking of the LITERAL TEMPLE in Jerusalem but another temple where professing NT Christians worship that shall TOTALLY be destroyed where it will be said perfectly there is NOT ONE stone upon another that shall NOT be thrown down.
This is inaccurate.  The Wailing Wall (Western Wall) was never a wall of the temple.  It was (and still is) a retaining wall of the mountain upon which the temple was said to be located.  Historically, the site where the Al Aqsa mosque (the Dome of the Rock) sits has been said to be the site of the temple, and also the site where Abraham sacrificed the ram instead of Isaac.

More recently, this view has come into question as well, as it has been demonstrated that in New Testament times, this was likely the site of the fortress Antonia.  If so, the temple in those days must have been further south down that mountain, on the mountain to the south of that one, or perhaps located on a porch connecting the two mountains.

Jarrod

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 16:16:20 »
This is inaccurate.  The Wailing Wall (Western Wall) was never a wall of the temple.  It was (and still is) a retaining wall of the mountain upon which the temple was said to be located.  Historically, the site where the Al Aqsa mosque (the Dome of the Rock) sits has been said to be the site of the temple, and also the site where Abraham sacrificed the ram instead of Isaac.

More recently, this view has come into question as well, as it has been demonstrated that in New Testament times, this was likely the site of the fortress Antonia.  If so, the temple in those days must have been further south down that mountain, on the mountain to the south of that one, or perhaps located on a porch connecting the two mountains.

Jarrod
Greetings Jarroh, Personally, I DO NOT KNOW and truly whether or not it is so, plays very little if any in the interpretation of Matthew 24.  The wailing wall is supposed to have been the western part of the temple and without question definitely part of the city of earthly Jerusalem. If you ask any Jews in Israel today, they believe that it was~but be as it may, Matthew 24 is speaking of what we under the NT consider to be the place of worship~the professing churches of Jesus Christ and under the religion of Jesus Christ ARE THE TEMPLE of God in one true biblical sense. More on this later. RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #14 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 16:21:52 »
from RB,
Quote

One more thing~Lea, give me ONE SCRIPTURE in Matthew 24 that you are convinced that Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the Jewish nation with their temple, in 70 A. D. just ONE. Give it your best shot. Two or three would be MUCH BETTER, for THEN every word shall be established for its truthfulness, according to Moses~but I'm going to be easy on you, one would do for now. 

Since I am probably not as retired as you are, ha ha,  I appreciate your concern for me only needing to address Matt.24 and its full preterist view.

So, first of all, Jesus was just lamenting over Jerusalem in Matt.23. Jerusalem, who killed the prophets, etc. whom God sent to them...
Then in Matthew 24, Jesus answers questions from his disciples. Chapter 24:

The Destruction of the Temple Foretold. 1 [a]Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. 2 He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” (NABRE version)

OK, so, destruction of the temple is first mentioned to His disciples (audience relevance demands that you see Jesus spoke to them in person- THEN.)

Next it is easier just to look at Luke 21 ( which is the same prediction) where Luke says "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that her desolation is near."

Matt.24. v.3, the disciples ask questions and get answers: 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
So 3 questions asked.
Then Matt.24 v.4 - Jesus begins to tell his disciples what will happen during the time of their evangelism. (between AD30 or 33- AD 70) Nation would rise against nation meant the Romans pax romana would end and there would be kingdom infighting (which occurred in history during that time)

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the [c]Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will [d]fall away and will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [g]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

These were the signs the disciples should look for since nobody but the Father knew the day or hour of His return. (Rev.1 says God gave the revelation of Jesus Christ!)

Anyway, Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature on earth by the end of his ministry.

OK, so now the end would come.

Matter of fact, Daniel 12 supports the same interpretation of the destruction of Jerusalem, when the power of the holy people would be shattered. (Daniel's people)  Notice how the resurrection (at that time) some would be delivered who sleep in the dust of the earth and shine like the stars forever.)

The time frame is indisputable. The end times for Israel as a favored nation would be at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.
Since Matt.24 goes on to say: v.15, 15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short.

This answers the questions about Daniel's "TROUBLE" for Israel, the temple and Jesus' warnings for his believers to flee Judea and Jerusalem because of all the signs they are to heed his warning.

The elect are always true Israel.

Now we get to the heart of the matter, Jesus' return (the sign of Your coming the disciples asked)
The Glorious Return
Matt.24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


So that's it RB. Jesus and Daniel told of the great tribulation,. Jesus then said "immediately after the tribulation of those days the "sign of the Son of Man would appear in the sky, all the tribes of the land would mourn and perceive/see Him in the clouds "with power." Then there would be a resurrection. (as in Daniel 12)

Also it the answer to when the end of the Jewish age would be.  I t could be none other than in first century AD (AD70).


« Last Edit: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 16:30:28 by lea »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #15 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 17:37:55 »

Lea:

    I agree with much of your post to Legendary Member above. He seems to be deeply bothered because I am not interested in “exchanging books” with him—that is, a large body of writings, believing such would be boring to many of Grace Centered readers.

    However, I will put together and post one additional set of remarks on the subject under study. I will try to get it posted before this day ends.

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #16 on: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 18:28:39 »
Legendary Member:

   
Here is what I see and understand in Matthew 24 & Luke 21
 

1] Jesus addressed the destruction of the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem.
2] Symptoms of “birth pains” will be false Christs and prophets and turmoil among the provinces within the Roman Empire.
3] Because of weak faith, many will turn or fall away and betray each other.
4] The Good News will be proclaimed throughout the “whole world” of the Roman Empire before Judaism ends.
5] When that moment arrives, the man on his roof must flee immediately, and pregnant women and nursing mothers will have a difficult time escaping.
6] Pray that when this happens, it will not be on the Jewish Sabbath, for then the gates to the city will be closed.
7] Jesus came with power and great glory in judgment upon the rebellious Jews, after which people recognized the awesome judgment as coming from Him or “saw the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky.”
8] The sun will be darkened, the moon will not reflect its light, and the stars will fall from heaven are all representative of great powers falling, both religious and political.
9] Many thousands of Jews will fall by the sword and many others taken as prisoners to all the nations. History says that 1,100,000 persons perished and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery.


    The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King. God used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove Israel’s Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between. 

    It was over—forever—for Israel as a Holy Nation! God had had enough of His one-time wife who persisted in spiritual adultery. They had become a stiff-neck people. “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers—you always resist the Holy Spirit” [Acts 7:51]

    Jesus himself foretold of the disaster that would come upon His one-time wife when He said, “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near...They [Jews] will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations” [Luke 21:20-24]. Jesus made it plain that all this punishment that came upon the Jews was “in fulfillment of all that has been written” [v. 22]. The path of Israel as a Holy Nation had ended, never to rise again.

    Let us not forget that Jesus did come in judgment upon the Jewish people in A. D. 67-70, but not visibly and personally. His second visible advent is futuristic. My point is that the biblical evidence supplied above clearly references the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State in 67-70 A.D.

    Consequently, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the futuristic second and final personal coming of our Lord, but refers to the time when God bestowed His judgment upon a wicked and perverse generation—His once chosen people. To cover another base, there is no implication the two chapters are related in any way to the modern-day “Rapture” Theology. Simply, our Lord came in judgment upon a rebellious people.

    As I’ve already noted,  Stephen’s life ended when his Jewish brothers stoned him to death. He said to them, “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your [Jewish] fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered” [Acts 7:51-53].

   It seems to me that to set Matthew 24 and Luke 21 in any era other than A.D. 67-70, during the Roman/Jewish War, is to misconstrue and misapply heaven’s history of His once chosen nation. [end]
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 19, 2020 - 18:52:59 by Reformer »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #17 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 04:24:25 »
I agree with much of your post to Legendary Member above. He seems to be deeply bothered because I am not interested in “exchanging books” with him—that is, a large body of writings, believing such would be boring to many of Grace Centered readers.
Greetings Buff~I'm not in the least bothered, and actually knew that you would not defend what you post if another person confronts you~I've seen this from you a few times over~you do not handle confrontation very well, that being said, do what you think best in defense of what you started. I will now go and read both your and Lea's post.

One's view on the Olivet Discourse sets the tone for that person's overall eschatology, more or less. The understanding of this discourse is critical, and not that easy to see proven by so many people's different teachings even righteous people, much more so false propehts~that's why the Lord Jesus said:
Quote from: The Lord Jesus
Matthew 24:4~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."
Every man should take those words very seriously for they were spoken for a reason. I have no problem men trying my understanding with the scriptures for they SHOULD do so if they are wise.

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #18 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 07:45:07 »
Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies In Matthew 24 & Luke 21

Are they referring to the second and final advent of the Lord or the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State?
Improper question.  Jesus' warnings and prophecies are not "either-or"; rather Matthew 24 and Luke 21 present both.  That is clearly demonstrated by the fact that they are Jesus' answer to the questions asked by the disciples, i.e.,

Matt 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Note that there are three questions raised by the disciples:

1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming?
3. What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

To interpret Jesus' answer to their questions as referring only to one or the other is a serious mistake.

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #19 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 08:07:23 »
So, first of all, Jesus was just lamenting over Jerusalem in Matt.23. Jerusalem, who killed the prophets, etc. whom God sent to them...
Then in Matthew 24, Jesus answers questions from his disciples. Chapter 24:

The Destruction of the Temple Foretold. 1 [a]Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. 2 He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” (NABRE version)

OK, so, destruction of the temple is first mentioned to His disciples (audience relevance demands that you see Jesus spoke to them in person- THEN.)

Next it is easier just to look at Luke 21 ( which is the same prediction) where Luke says "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that her desolation is near."
Okay, let us look at Luke's account.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Luke 21:20,21~"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."
These scriptures are not that hard to understand "IF" we truly believe that the scriptures are their own intrepreter and we trust them to give to us the truth hidden therein from men who think they are wise, when in fact they only show their blindness when they forsake the scriptures and look elsewhere for their understanding. These scriptures are to be understood in the writings of John the beloved apostle.
Quote from: John
Revelation 20:7-9~"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
In Luke's witness of the truth, Jesus clearly said that Jerusalem shall be compassed about with armies, not "an army" of Romans, but the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth JUST AS JOHN SAID. The Jerusalem spoken of by Christ in Luke 21 is the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city~not a literal city that had spirits of devils, who killed the true prophets of God and the Son of God! Revelation 20 is speaking of the very same timeline events just in a different light and truly adding light on Luke 21:20,21.

So, I would beware of any man using mere sound bites to teach a doctrine that cannot be supported with the word of God. Scriptures MUST BE rightly divided or else, an error is surely to follow anyone who does not do so.

More later, I have some meetings.    RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #20 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 09:31:48 »
Anyway, Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature on earth by the end of his ministry.
Not once did Paul say this, besides that, it would have been impossible. There is NO record of any of the apostles going EAST toward India and China, etc. Even Paul said this:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 15:23,24~"But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company."
Yet we KNOW that he never made it to Spain, also to the British Isles, not to mention North and South America where Indians did live. Besides, there are SOME even in our days that have never heard the name of Jesus Christ in the jungles of South America and other remote area's of this world and they may never hear. But OVERALL CONSIDERED, the world has now heard. Even without the gospel God still had his faithful witnesses:
Quote from: David
Psalm 19:1-5~"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race."
God alone regenerates, yet he has his own faithful witnesses that would instruct those who he has regenerated to seek him~God may or he may not send another child of God who has been instructed in the written word of God to help them to come unto the knowledge of him. The gospel is given for our PRACTICAL SALVATION of coming to the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. It brings to LIGHT where there is LIFE.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"
Paul went to places to seek out those who had LIFE given to them by the Spirit of God. When he preached his preaching manifested where there was either life or that death still abides there. The gospel indeed brings to LIGHT where there is spiritual life freely given by the mercy of God.  By Paul not making it to Spain did not mean that a person would die without God, only they may have died without very much or any true knowledge of God. 

Back to the topic....RB

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #21 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 09:38:37 »

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #22 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 13:11:54 »

Legendary Member:

    If possible, you and Lea work it out. I have already worked it out and submitted the same to you, so it would be somewhat futile and redundant that I "work it out" all over again.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #23 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 14:53:34 »
OK, so now the end would come.

Matter of fact, Daniel 12 supports the same interpretation of the destruction of Jerusalem, when the power of the holy people would be shattered. (Daniel's people)  Notice how the resurrection (at that time) some would be delivered who sleep in the dust of the earth and shine like the stars forever.)

The time frame is indisputable. The end times for Israel as a favored nation would be at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.
You have your Timeline in opposition to the word of God on many fronts.

1. Your End is the end of the Jewish nation and their homeland. The end that Jesus was speaking about is the end of the world as we know it.

First, as far as God was concerned he was finished with Israel, the temple worship and Jerusalem as the place of worship at the resurrection of his Son, JESUS CHRIST. Whatever happened afterward with the Jews and their nation has NO bearing on biblical prophecy/truths then, now, and forever!  It was at that point that the veil was rent in twain from top to bottom thus signifying ITS END and a new era of worshipping God had begun! It did not begin at the end of the period of the true biblcial period of reformation in around 70 A.D. Jesus had foretold this way before his death:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 4:21-24~"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

2. The end of the world as we know it is the ONLY end mention in the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21; etc.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:33-36~"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
I could start at so many different places in this discourse from Christ to us through his disciples. Jesus himself said that heaven and earth shall pass away but his words will not pass away, now it would take a very bold person to say that these words do not really mean what they sare are CLEARLY SAYING. Also, Jesus said that as a snare his coming shall come upon ALL THEM that dwell on the FACE OF THE WHOLE WORLD~not just those in the small nation of Israel! You said above that this world will not pass away, yet the word of God spoken by Jesus himself said that it will pass away. Enough on this clear point about the passing away of THIS WORLD AS WE KNOW IT.
Quote from: lea on: Yesterday at 16:21:52
Matter of fact, Daniel 12 supports the same interpretation of the destruction of Jerusalem, when the power of the holy people would be shattered. (Daniel's people)  Notice how the resurrection (at that time) some would be delivered who sleep in the dust of the earth and shine like the stars forever.)
Lea, sorry but you have been duped by someone and/or the spirit of error.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Daniel 12:1-3~"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever."
Lea, how in the world do you see the destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 12 is beyond me! Daniel's people are the VERY ELECT, not those unbelievers that filled Jerusalem at the time of their supposed destruction (which I do not reject, only that it has any biblical significant)~the time of Jacob's trouble is the time when the VERY ELECT has fled from the supposed churches of Christ where the man of sin sits and rules~a time when they are hated and rejected by the masses that filled the latter-day apostate Churches called by Christ "Judea"~which was where the OT saints went to worshipped, so it was ONLY FITTED that Christ used that term when speaking to his apostles concerning the destruction of the latter-day temple where folks would be worshipping~when the religious side of Babylon shall fall where NOT ONE STONE shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down and destroyed!
Quote from: Daniel
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
The same words are repeated by Christ in John 5.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 5:28,29~"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice carefully that the Lord DID NOT say the hour is coming AND NOW IS as he said above because that hour was NOT at hand concerning the resurrection of the body in the LAST DAY of this world for that day was yet to be determined in the future known ONLY to God. If Daniel was speaking of resurrection in 70 A.D. then Christ would have said the hour NOW IS, just as he said to the woman at the well~but he did not because Daniel's resurrection is STILL in the future at the LAST DAY of this world's history as we know it.   

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #24 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 15:00:37 »
Legendary Member:

    If possible, you and Lea work it out. I have already worked it out and submitted the same to you, so it would be somewhat futile and redundant that I "work it out" all over again.

Blessings,

Buff

Really? Buff, this is an important part of bible eschatology and I'm ready to defend the truth of the scriptures as I see it, to help anyone struggling with this part of God's word. I was there many years ago and I know the struggles I went through to get a handle on this truth.

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #25 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 16:56:04 »
RB,
1)Daniel 12 states the end time is when the power of the Jews would finally be shattered. There is no other end time that the Lord prophesied about. Daniel 12 should be read right after ch.10
Prophecy of the End Time

12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation
,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. ~emph. mine.

AD Feb.67- August 70 was the attack on the Jews by the Romans.

Quote
RB said:Luke 21:33-36~"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The whole earth is mostly used in Scripture to describe the land the earth, or the land of Palestine.

(A LOOK AT LUKE 21:34-36

Before going on to the rest of Matthew 24, some details from Luke 21:34-36 are also very much worth noting. This passage follows His two-fold declaration in verses 32-33 that [1] His own generation and [2] heaven and earth would pass away. He then says,

“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21:34-36).

In verse 34, Jesus refers to “that day.” Taking this reference in context, what day would He be referring to? It should be clear that He was referring [1] to the passing of His generation after all that He had prophesied would take place and [2] to the passing away of heaven and earth. This command to “watch yourselves” was given to His followers living in the first century.

In verse 35, Jesus says “that day” will come “upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.”  On the Biblos Online Parallel Bible website (www.bible.cc), there are 18 parallel translations listed for this verse. All of them render the final phrase of this verse as “the whole earth,” except for Young’s Literal Translation, which renders it as “all the land.” Indeed, the Greek word used here, “ge,” can be rendered as “land” in many cases where it is used, and can refer specifically to the Promised Land (i.e. Israel). In various commentaries on Luke 21:35, Albert Barnes (1834) and Adam Clarke (1831) agreed that these troubles were to come upon Judea, and John Gill (1746-1763) said that Jerusalem, Galilee, and Judea suffered the calamities that Jesus predicted.

This certainly makes sense here, as we have already seen in Luke 21:23 that Jesus says those days would be full of great distress for “this people” and for “the earth” (or “the land”), and this is very clearly equated with “those who are in Judea” (Luke 21:21). The same Greek word, “ge,” is also used in verse 23, and there it is rendered as “land” instead of as “earth” 17 out of 18 times in the Biblos entry for that verse.

The expression “those who dwell on the earth” (or similar forms of this expression) can also be seen often in the book of Revelation, and a solid case can be made that it refers, not to the globe, but to 1st century apostate Israel. See the 3-part series I have written on this phenomenon: here, here, and here.

Lastly, in Luke 21:36, we see that Jesus makes reference to “all these things that are going to take place.” In verses 34-36 He does not detail any number of things that are going to take place. We must conclude, then, that He is referring to what He has already described in verses 5-32 (see verses 7, 9, 12, 22, 26, 31, and 32 for similar references). This is further evidence that Jesus does not, as some have suggested, speak of 1st century events in certain parts of this chapter and speak of yet unfulfilled events in other parts. For He declares in verse 32 that all these things must take place before His own generation passes away. Furthermore, in verses 8 and following He details the signs which must take place before the temple was to be completely destroyed (see verses 6-7), an event that we know took place in 70 AD.)


Lastly, RB, you deny the Holy Writ if you say that Paul didn't claim, at least 3 times, that the gospel was preached to the known world at that time!
There are other similar passages that may be combined with Colossians 1:23. Earlier, in the same chapter, Paul exults in the fact that the gospel was bearing fruit “in all the world” (v. 6).Elsewhere, the apostle stated that the faith of the Christians in Rome was being “proclaimed throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8, 16:19). Also in Romans 10, Paul, borrowing from language that highlights the vast influence of the sun’s illuminating power (Psalm 19:4), contended that the gospel “sound” went out “into all the earth,” even “to the ends of the world” (v. 18). The brethren in Thessalonica were commended because their evangelistic fervor had echoed not only throughout Macedonia and Achaia, but “in every place” (1 Thessalonians 1:8).
 Colossians 1:23, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. In Titus 2:11,121 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,.

That was their present age. The age to come is Christian age, which the kingdom came in all its  fullness in AD70, and has no end.

As far as Romans 15:24 speaking about Spain, many scholars believe it is unclear whether Paul went to Spain or not. But I think there's an opinion that holds the most weight:
https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/paul-s-4th-missionary-journey-and-i-don-t-mean-his-trip-to-rome
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 17:10:09 by lea »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #26 on: Thu Feb 20, 2020 - 23:09:31 »
The wailing wall is supposed to have been the western part of the temple and without question definitely part of the city of earthly Jerusalem. If you ask any Jews in Israel today, they believe that it was~
Negative, Ghost Rider.  I went there in 94, and I got the tours that you can only get if you're a Jewish man (or at least you can pass the rabbi's eye test  ::crackup::).  The rabbi took us through the tunnels excavated under the Arab quarter of the city along the wailing wall, and showed us dioramas of the mount, of Solomon's temple, Nehemiah's, Herod's, and the one they'd like to (re)build, as well as reconstructions of the ancient City of David.  I assure you, they do not believe it to be a wall of the temple.

The Wailing Wall is a megalithic structure that predates both Herod the Great and Nehemiah.  It could have been built by Solomon, but its likely even earlier.  It may even have been built by the Jebusites or other Canaanites who pre-date David's conquest of the city.

Jarrod

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #27 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 02:58:27 »
Negative, Ghost Rider.  I went there in 94, and I got the tours that you can only get if you're a Jewish man (or at least you can pass the rabbi's eye test  ::crackup::).  The rabbi took us through the tunnels excavated under the Arab quarter of the city along the wailing wall, and showed us dioramas of the mount, of Solomon's temple, Nehemiah's, Herod's, and the one they'd like to (re)build, as well as reconstructions of the ancient City of David.  I assure you, they do not believe it to be a wall of the temple.
Then please accept my apology~ mine was more hearsay, not actual first-hand knowledge. I trust your first-hand knowledge. Again, it truly does not matter as far as the bibilcal Olivet Discourse interpretation as I said above.   

Lea, I'm very short on time today, not sure if I will be able to post very much, but I will answer your post ASAP. RB
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 08:00:14 by RB »

Online Johnb

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #28 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 08:00:50 »
I guess this is why I don’t post as much as I use to I really don’t care about this or the thousand year reign or hundreds of other pet views on scripture where both could be correct or both could be wrong.  I am more interested in Christians working together to help the poor, one another and bring the lost to Christ.  Perhaps I should be but just am not.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #29 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 09:37:23 »
Hi Johnb,

Absolutely, a child of God should never lose sight of the main intent for God leaving us here on earth.  We are one body in Christ, whether or not we differ in our level of understanding the Book He gave to us.

For those within the group of the as-yet-unreached for Christ, the last thing I want to do is to repel them by a misrepresentation of what God really intended to say about Himself in that Book.  The flames of a perpetual torment in Hell’s Lake of Fire for the wicked is one major turnoff for the unregenerate that has been mistakenly taught as truth.  They rightly assume that this would identify God as a sadist.  Also, the elevation of the race of the Jews over the rest of the world’s citizens, even with us being under the New Covenant, is another gross misrepresentation of God’s words that has deceived many.  This would make God a respecter of persons.

Eschatology shouldn’t have to be a divisive wrangling over the minutiae simply for the sake of trying to prove someone else wrong - it is a revelation of God’s character and the veracity of Christ’s claims to return at a specific time on the calendar for HIS GENERATION.  If He did not fulfill this to the letter, then Jesus is a FALSE MESSIAH, and we have no business preaching Him to the unconverted.  It’s that critical.  Jesus Christ’s very divinity is at stake when these matters are discussed. He either spoke the absolute truth, or He was the biggest liar ever to appear on the earth, and we need not believe a word He said.

God very much desires for us to “speak often one to another” about what the truth is in His words.  A “book of remembrance” was once written for those who did this, and for those who thought upon His name, I believe.  This conversing need not be a negative thing, unless a prideful spirit is motivating the person, and even then it’s possible to extend mercy for such, if suitable.



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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #30 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 10:21:41 »
All I need to know is in the end God wins.  God determines when and told me I can’t know when end of story for me.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #31 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 11:48:16 »
Hi lea,

Those were some excellent points you brought out about “the land” being specifically the Promised Land, and not the entire globe under consideration for the majority of the time that this term is used in scripture. 

I would only add to your comments about Luke 21:36 by highlighting just how imminent those events were to the time when Christ was speaking.  “Watch therefore at every season praying, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape these things all which are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man.”  This extensive  list of “all things” in Luke 21 was SOON TO BEGIN for the disciples, when they would first be delivered up to the synagogues for persecution by the religious leaders of Israel, and persecution and imprisonment of the believers would begin.  This started with the disciples being beaten just after Pentecost in Acts 5:40 and from Stephen’s martyrdom, even before the following days of Great Tribulation from AD 66-70.


For Reformer,

Your original post’s statement puts a dividing line between Christ’s second coming and the days when Israel and Jerusalem would be brought down in the AD 70 judgment of the nation.  Paul does not divide these two events.  They happen concurrently.  As he told Timothy in II Timothy 4:1, “Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE LIVING AND DEAD according to his appearing and his kingdom...”

This shows a judgment that IN PAUL’s NEAR FUTURE (when he said he had “finished my course”) was *ABOUT TO BE* PASSED upon both the living and the dead as well, once Christ made an appearance.  This dates Christ’s appearing to occur SOON after AD 67, because an imprisoned Paul was about to be executed that year.

The judgment on the “living” (that you are emphasizing, Reformer) was the horrible physical catastrophes that occurred during that AD 70 era’s “days of vengeance”.  It was an extremely troubled period of history, even for those who managed to live through it. 

The concurrent judgment of the “dead” was the punishment and annihilation of all the wicked dead at Christ’s AD 70 return, and the rewards given in that judgment to the righteous dead who had been waiting for the AD 70 resurrection ever since righteous Abel’s death.


For RB,

You are still presuming that the “Great Tribulation” with Christ’s return that comes “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29) occurs at the end of human history.  It doesn’t.  There is much ordinary human history that goes on AFTER that Great Tribulation and Christ’s return.  Scripture is quite definite that there are ordinary periods of tribulation for the saints occurring AFTER the Great Tribulation,  because there will be no tribulations after that one which will ever equal the severity of that former time.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, NO, NOR EVER *SHALL BE*” (in the future AFTER that Great Tribulation followed immediately by Christ’s return when the tribes of Israel mourned to see Him returning in judgment). 

This extended span of human history following the Great Tribulation (when Christ returned IMMEDIATELY after it) necessitates a third return of Christ in our future, with a third bodily resurrection to finish gathering all three “harvests” of the bodies of the righteous from out of the dust of the grave.  God leaves not a single hair behind for the bodies of His people, (“there shall not an hair of your head perish”) or death would have a partial victory over us.

I’m sorry, but I find your gloomy predictions of what you expect to prevail at the close of human history to be exactly like those morbid predictions of the Pre-mil disp. teaching.  This runs exactly counter to the expectations Christ taught for the progress of God’s kingdom in this world.  The “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.  Neither is there any halt in the growth of the “leaven” of God’s kingdom until it completely influences the entire loaf.  Neither is there a halt in the growth of Daniel’s stone which struck the feet of the image.  It increases in size until it fills the whole earth.  The mustard seed which steadily grows into the greatest size is not blighted or stunted in growth at the last coming of Christ.  “Of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be no end.”

It is a myopic view to presume that our present state of national moral decline is at all a deterrent to God’s overriding plan for the progress of His kingdom in this world.  God does not see as we see, nor think as we think.  Look a little higher than ground level.

By the way, you should reeeealy look at scripture’s definition of what the “four quarters of the earth” in Rev. 20:8 are describing.  It was talking about Gog’s army spreading out over the “four corners” of the LAND OF ISRAEL’S dimensions, according to Ezekiel 7:2.  Please read this verse.  It’s God’s dictionary at work. 

When Israel entered the Promised Land, Neh. 7:22 said that God “...divided them into CORNERS...”  The four quadrants of the land of Israel were what the army of the chief prince Gog would be gathered from.  It was a CIVIL WAR of an Israelite “chief prince” called Gog coming against his own people - when “every man’s sword shall be against HIS BROTHER” (Ez. 38:21). 

And that was very gracious of you to defer to Jarrod’s knowledge of the Wailing Wall not being part of the temple.   I’ve never had a tour of the Holy Land myself, but the book of Nehemiah describing the walls of Jerusalem and the position of its gates pretty much confirms that the Temple was not located at the current Dome of the Rock location.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #32 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 12:22:03 »
 








 This runs exactly counter to the expectations Christ taught for the progress of God’s kingdom in this world.  The “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.  Neither is there any halt in the growth of the “leaven” of God’s kingdom until it completely influences the entire loaf.  Neither is there a halt in the growth of Daniel’s stone which struck the feet of the image.  It increases in size until it fills the whole earth.  The mustard seed which steadily grows into the greatest size is not blighted or stunted in growth at the last coming of Christ.  “Of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be no end.”

It is a myopic view to presume that our present state of national moral decline is at all a deterrent to God’s overriding plan for the progress of His kingdom in this world.  God does not see as we see, nor think as we think.  Look a little higher than ground level.





This entire concept is merely twisting ideas to fulfill that which you have come to believe.

Certainly God does not see or think like we do, but you seriously cannot believe that there has been any progress of God’s kingdom in this world in the past 2000 years, give or take. To think so shows the blinders you have on.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Jesus’ Warnings & Prophecies
« Reply #33 on: Fri Feb 21, 2020 - 13:16:25 »
Hi seekingHiswisdom,

Your pessimism sounds exactly like an echo of the despairing prophet Elijah, who thought he was the only one in Israel that remained alive and faithful to God.  God ALWAYS reserves a group of those who have not “bowed the knee to Baal”, so to speak. 

If you cannot see evidence of the promised progress for God’s kingdom all around you, then I pity you.  Are you paying any attention to international revivals currently in progress?  China? North Korea? Even (gasp) in Iran?  Etc., etc.  Just as an imprisoned Paul triumphantly proclaimed from inside the very confines of his prison with chains dangling from his body, “the Word of God is NOT BOUND”.

The Spirit of God can enter and do its most effective work when the world appears at its darkest.  We serve the Almighty God.  His promises NEVER FAIL.  If He promised steady, incremental progress of His kingdom in this world by those multiple examples I just copied for you, then I BELIEVE HIM.

Here, let me remind you of another prophet with those same “blinders” on that you say I am wearing.    A prophet who refused to succumb to despair about the progress of God’s work among His people, even when he saw the vision of the impending judgment coming upon them by the Babylonians for their disobedience and lawlessness.

Habakkuk 3:17-19.  “Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines;  the labor of the olives shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: YET I WILL REJOICE IN THE LORD, I WILL JOY IN THE GOD OF MY SALVATION.  The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places...”.

God was going to “revive his work in the midst of the years” (Hab. 3:2) in the post-exilic return of His people.  Though Habakkuk was prophesying of the Chaldeans conquering his own people on the near horizon, this was certainly not the end of the story. 

Habakkuk was in his service to God for the long haul.  He did not allow short-sighted pessimism to ruin his joy in the God of his salvation, who was definitely going to do a work of revival of His people under Ezra, Nehemiah, Joshua, and Zerubbabel.  When that revival occurred, God promised that “the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”  (Hab. 2:14). And so it was.

What God did back then, He can (and already has) duplicated many times over.  Have a little faith, like Abraham. 

 

     
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