GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World  (Read 9232 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #35 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 14:34:27 »
Believer Beware of everything said by everyone. There are virtually innumerable concepts to be aware of to a Christian. One might warn against OSAS or someone else might warn against the horrors of water baptism. We all come from different backgrounds and certainly view things from different perspectives. EVERYTHING should be sifted of course, this video included.

To me the video was a very interesting look at an enigmatic statement of Jesus that I have read a hundred times and glazed over in the past:
Mathew 15:24 But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The video simply pointed out that the OT clearly defines who the sheep of the house of Israel are. Jews are only 1 tribe of the House of Israel, and in other pieces of the video, it pointed out that even in the NT it refers to the scattered ones in contexts where we tend to want to read simply gentiles. A concept that the Bible difines itself is well known, but sometimes we forget that the OT is the only scripture Jesus had and used.

At least OSAS exalts Jesus

At least the argument against reliance upon water baptism is an argument that exalts our relationship with Jesus first and foremost

No matter what background we come from, the common ground on which all believers SHOULD stand is The Solid Foundation of Jesus the Christ, The Exalted One of God. On this we should all be in complete agreement

In this we should all be in agreement that Christ reconciles all men to God through Himself ending the enmity between God and man.....

Twisting that to refer to reconciliation between God and Jews, the Northern Tribes and the Southern Tribes is a perversion of the Gospel altogether a complete rewriting of the Gospel of Christ Jesus for the purpose of exalting Judaism and the Jewish system of religion rather than He that system points to in every way who ALONE IS THE TRUTH of every sign, every feast, every thing instituted by God which that system pointed to as a copy or pattern of a deeper truth, of things heavenly of All that was brought into fruition in Christ Jesus of which God used Paul's vast understanding of the Torah to explain the mystery of Redemption, Salvation Restoration that the Torah was pointing to all along that was to come through Christ Jesus

You can deny it, argue against it and debate all you want but.... that video is a distraction from those truths and lays the foundation for another gospel

If you are unbiased toward the 1 hr 20 something minute message presented in the video please share with us what you perceive as problematic in the presentation if anything?

However if you can listen to an entire 1 hr 20 something minute message about Hebrew roots and walk away from it with not disputing anything presented in it....
....if I were you I would question why, especially when some of the points made by the speaker were clearly wrong in terms of Christian Salvation  ::shrug::

By the way CONTRARY TO THE VIDEO... the real mystery Paul was referring to
is CHRIST IN YOU!

To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 14:57:18 by gospel »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #35 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 14:34:27 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #36 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:04:32 »
Point out to me the places in the video where Christ is not exalted. He is the point of the whole video. Good grief. If this video is so anti-Christ, you need to do us misguided souls a favor and spend time point by point and save us all from it's clutches, PLEASE point by point by point where scripture is misapplied.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #36 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:04:32 »

Alfred Combes

  • Guest
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:09:33 »
If Jim Staley had instead preached of faith making you materially rich and he had a gold toilet, some in this thread would be defending him.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:09:33 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #38 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:11:38 »
Not me.

I don't care one whit about him, i just thought it was a thought provoking video. Refute it's points please, we know  believers should beware as with any message.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #38 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:11:38 »

Alfred Combes

  • Guest
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #39 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:17:19 »
Not me.

I don't care one whit about him, i just thought it was a thought provoking video. Refute it's points please, we know  believers should beware as with any message.

My point being some are not willing to eat the meat and discard the bones.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #39 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:17:19 »



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #40 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:34:52 »
Point out to me the places in the video where Christ is not exalted. He is the point of the whole video. Good grief. If this video is so anti-Christ, you need to do us misguided souls a favor and spend time point by point and save us all from it's clutches, PLEASE point by point by point where scripture is misapplied.

Jaime I listened to the entire thing and refuse to do so again....I know what he said while he was saying it and have been trying my best to relay to you what I didn't like to the best of my memory....

So one thing for sure it is not a salvation message ....is it?

Secondly he spoke of those as far off as being Jewish gentiles that had strayed away from Israel out of the 10 tribes....WRONG!

Thirdly he spoke of the mystery of which Paul had cited regarding the middle wall of separation as that of Israel and Judah again ....WRONG!


Fourth he spoke of the huge crowds Paul was drawing in  Ephesus as being all Jewish gentiles which is why so many of them recognized the message

Lastly ...pretty much most of what Staley spoke of about Paul and his call into the ministry undermined those things which Paul had said of himself, his ministry and the reason he was called...while simultaneously diluting key aspects of the Gospel he preached undermining the basis for a sound understanding of Christian Doctrine


Now since you've probably watched it more than once, you may be more expert on what was said and what is not....so I ask you

Please elaborate on how you believe Christ Jesus was exalted and how Paul's Gospel to the gentiles was referenced..... according to Staley

In short I am asking what about the presentation do you think enhances
The Salvation of Believers, what in the video would serve to strengthen, edify, exhort and comfort a Christian believer, specifically a new convert?   

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #40 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:34:52 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #41 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:43:55 »
Gospel what do you mean the far off are not Israelite Gentiles, even Peter reders to those scattered afar off. The 10 tribes wete scattered and assimilated and Jesus knows who his sheep are. Jesus came to Paul a student under Gamaleal (sp) who would have been an expert in the Hebrew faith to address the out of covenant Israelite Gentiles.

What encourages me as a believer to finally understand what Jesus meant. There was nothimg discouraging to a believer in this video. It was a testimony of God going after his lost sheep.  And he refers to the house of Jacob or Israel as his sheep several times in the OT. What could be discouraging about that?
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 15:53:26 by Jaime »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #42 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 16:08:15 »
Gospel what do you mean the far off are not Israelite Gentiles, even Peter reders to those scattered afar off. The 10 tribes wete scattered and assimilated and Jesus knows who his sheep are. Jesus came to Paul a student under Gamaleal (sp) who would have been an expert in the Hebrew faith to address the out of covenant Israelite Gentiles.

What encourages me as a believer is ti funally understand what Jesus meant. There was nothimg discouraging to a believer in this video. It was a testimony of God going after his lost sheep. What could be discouraging about that?

Jaime many who were afar off were not disenfranchised ....

They had pilgrimages to Jerusalem every year for the Feasts

The crowd to which Peter addressed in Acts 2 were Jews who were afar off....they all understand Hebrew

This is why they questioned each other regarding hearing the disciples in the NATIVE TONGUES

In other words these were practicing Jews from Arabia, from Asia, from Persia

So though Staley is right in some ways about the 2 kingdoms, he is wrong in the way he is framing it....which the way he is framing it is to his own advantage for the purpose of promoting the Hebrew roots movement

It's very well woven presentation, the deception is quite subtle which is why I say BEWARE

Aside from that what Jesus really meant has nothing to do with the two kingdom split....so this stuff has you off on the wrong course....

ALL JEWS, like all mankind is lost, not just the 10 tribes of Israel!

Furthermore when Jesus speaks of Israel he is not excluding Judah as you and Staley seem to infer, He is addressing all Jews

So the real reason Jesus had to go to lost sheep of Israel is because they were the only ones under the curse of the Law, they were the only ones under condemnation, they were the only ones weighted down with the guilt and shame that was produced as a result of being given the Law

That is the import of the story about the Centurion and the Syro-phonecian woman, they were both outsiders.....BUT BOTH HAD GREATER FAITH THEN ALL OF ISRAEL!

That was the reason in Luke 4 Jesus referenced Namaan and the widow of Zarephath because both being non Jews not subject to the Law nevertheless had great faith to believe in the prophets of God

And that is why the Jews tried to throw Jesus off the cliff for saying so

THE LAW was GIVEN TO THE JEWS was the reason Jesus had to go to them first to give them the first opportunity to receive forgiveness by the Grace of God through Him
 
So in elevating the Torah in the manner they are doing it... Staley and the Hebrew roots movement are actually working contrary to the Gospel of Christ

PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE IN THE LIGHT OF REDEMPTION

That is what it is really about...nothing else

God's Plan to Redeem man and restore His Kingdom on earth!

The real meaning of Matthew 6:33

Everything else is a distraction




Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #43 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 17:31:12 »
Jesus said he was to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel not just Judah who were in the land. There were 12 tribes at the foot of Sinai, sheep in covenant with God. Yes Jesus is about redemption, ours AND those Israelite Gentiles assimilated among the nations. They were divorced from God. The mystery was how God was going to accomplish it. It was and will be through the redemptive work of Jesus. That is how ALL Israel will saved as in Romans 11. Another enigmatic scripture. NOT every person who has ever lived or descended from the house of Jocob, but a remnant from ALL the tribes.

***edited for atrocious typos***
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 22:26:11 by Jaime »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #43 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 17:31:12 »

Offline TonkaTim

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Manna: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #44 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 17:58:14 »
Jesus said he was to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel not just Judah who were in the land. There were 12 tribes at the foot of Sinai, sheep in covenant with God. Yes Jesus is about redemption ours AND those Isrelite Gentiles assimilated momg the nations. They were divorced from God. The mystery was how God was going to accpish it. It was and will be through the redemptive work of Jesus. That us how ALL Israel will saved as in Romans 11. Another enigmatic scrupture. Not every person who has ever lived or descended from the houae of Jocob, but a remnant from ALL the tribes.

I agree that understanding all of Israel an important message, especially since so much of the Bible deals with it. I've discussed it before on this forum. And it seems many more are starting to discuss it again. It is a beautiful love story & part of God's plan from the beginning.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #45 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 18:02:53 »
Jesus said he was to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel not just Judah who were in the land. There were 12 tribes at the foot of Sinai, sheep in covenant with God. Yes Jesus is about redemption ours AND those Isrelite Gentiles assimilated momg the nations. They were divorced from God. The mystery was how God was going to accpish it. It was and will be through the redemptive work of Jesus. That us how ALL Israel will saved as in Romans 11. Another enigmatic scrupture. Not every person who has ever lived or descended from the houae of Jocob, but a remnant from ALL the tribes.

O-o-o-okay ::tippinghat::

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #46 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 19:16:37 »
Okay!  ::smile:: sorry for the atrocious iphone typos!

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #47 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 19:35:22 »
Okay!  ::smile:: sorry for the atrocious iphone typos!

I recognized them because they look very familiar to me  ::smile::

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #48 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 20:33:26 »
Instead of speaking in an unknown tongue, I TYPE in one.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #49 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 22:19:49 »
Instead of speaking in an unknown tongue, I TYPE in one.

We all have the gift  ::lookaround::

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #50 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 22:21:33 »
Instead of speaking in an unknown tongue, I TYPE in one.

We all have the gift  ::lookaround::

Probably all the other posters wish my gift would CEASE!

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #51 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 23:36:20 »
Instead of speaking in an unknown tongue, I TYPE in one.

We all have the gift  ::lookaround::

Probably all the other posters wish my gift would CEASE!

Well in this instance unfortunately.. the gifts are given without repentance

 ::laughinghisterically::

Offline xheathen

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #52 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 16:38:06 »
I watched it all the way through and found it very fascinating. It sounded almost like he was calling a return to the law. I had to watch the second CD to determine. But something he said in the last 5 minutes of the first CD was right out of the new testament. It was when he got all teary eyed when his Jewish friend told him why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. Basically what his friend told him was that the messiah was supposed to tell them how they could attain a righteousness of their own thru observing the law.

Rom 9:30-33

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV

Jesus taught that He came to fulfill the law and He did. God gives Jesus' righteousness (a fulfillment of the law) to all that believe in Him. So either He taught us how to keep the law and He is the Messiah or we have to keep the law and establish our own righteousness.

I've made my decision.

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #53 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 00:46:14 »
I watched it all the way through and found it very fascinating. It sounded almost like he was calling a return to the law. I had to watch the second CD to determine. But something he said in the last 5 minutes of the first CD was right out of the new testament. It was when he got all teary eyed when his Jewish friend told him why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. Basically what his friend told him was that the messiah was supposed to tell them how they could attain a righteousness of their own thru observing the law.

Rom 9:30-33

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV

Jesus taught that He came to fulfill the law and He did. God gives Jesus' righteousness (a fulfillment of the law) to all that believe in Him. So either He taught us how to keep the law and He is the Messiah or we have to keep the law and establish our own righteousness.

I've made my decision.
His video Case for the Covenant (Which is posted on here) makes this very, very clear. 

I would challenge you to actually watch it and then try to refute if, if you can.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #54 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 02:06:55 »
I watched it all the way through and found it very fascinating. It sounded almost like he was calling a return to the law. I had to watch the second CD to determine. But something he said in the last 5 minutes of the first CD was right out of the new testament. It was when he got all teary eyed when his Jewish friend told him why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. Basically what his friend told him was that the messiah was supposed to tell them how they could attain a righteousness of their own thru observing the law.

Rom 9:30-33

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV

Jesus taught that He came to fulfill the law and He did. God gives Jesus' righteousness (a fulfillment of the law) to all that believe in Him. So either He taught us how to keep the law and He is the Messiah or we have to keep the law and establish our own righteousness.

I've made my decision.
His video Case for the Covenant (Which is posted on here) makes this very, very clear. 

I would challenge you to actually watch it and then try to refute if, if you can.

The teaching is in error

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #55 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 04:07:59 »
I watched it all the way through and found it very fascinating. It sounded almost like he was calling a return to the law. I had to watch the second CD to determine. But something he said in the last 5 minutes of the first CD was right out of the new testament. It was when he got all teary eyed when his Jewish friend told him why the Jews don't believe in Jesus. Basically what his friend told him was that the messiah was supposed to tell them how they could attain a righteousness of their own thru observing the law.

Rom 9:30-33

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV

Jesus taught that He came to fulfill the law and He did. God gives Jesus' righteousness (a fulfillment of the law) to all that believe in Him. So either He taught us how to keep the law and He is the Messiah or we have to keep the law and establish our own righteousness.

I've made my decision.
His video Case for the Covenant (Which is posted on here) makes this very, very clear. 

I would challenge you to actually watch it and then try to refute if, if you can.

The teaching is in error
Because it disagrees with your theology.  Feel free to watch it and dispute it, Gospel.  You tried to do that on this video and really could not do so in any way.

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1074
  • Manna: 31
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #56 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 22:06:19 »
I thank Jaime for putting the video on. Some interesting and seemingly valid points there...But...near the end of the video, the speaker was strongly suggesting, I believe, that believers in the Messiah should take up the keeping of the laws peculiar to the Old Covenant. I had no idea what the speaker was attempting to prove until he began that. If the Gentiles of the NT were indeed the lost ten tribes, it does not necessarily follow that they should resume keeping the Mosaic Covenant. As some may have already said, all are called to be receipients of the promises in the covenant made with Abraham, not to the keeping of the Law of Moses.

No matter how many times the Twelve Tribes of Israel are referenced in both Old and New Testaments, Paul, James, Peter, The Holy Spirit, and the Elders at Jerusalem agreed that the Gentiles (lost ten tribes, if you will) should not be burdened with keeping the Mosaic Law.

xheathern nailed it. The Jewish friend of the speaker gave much the same reason for the Jews rejecting Jesus that Paul did in Romans 9. If we convert the Jews to a messiah that instructs them how to be saved by works of the Law, we have wasted our time. Even if the speaker is not suggesting keeping the Mosaic Covenant Laws to gain salvation, that is what it would eventually become.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #57 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 22:36:35 »
I didn't see any reference to infer that keeping the Law would save anyone one. And I don't see how for instance honoring GOD's (not man's) appointed times (The Feasts of the Lord) or the weekly Sabbath would lead to that. The Feasts of the Lord point to Messiah explicitly and in a richness and depth that I personally don't get in our Christmas or Easter say. The Spring Feasts point to his first coming and the fall feasts are rehearsals for his second coming. When I think of Christmas and Easter, I realize we never intended to make anything of the pagan roots of these holidays, but why not honor HIS holy days. No one was ever saved by the Law and we I am not advocating that and I don't believe the video here was either.

That said, Jesus did say he did not come to abolish the Law (Torah or God's instructions for living), and he didn't. He properly interpretted it or filled up that which had been emptied by improper interpretation of the Pharisees, as he clearly did in the context of Mathew 5 or the Sermon on the Mount.

Also, please note that there are Gentiles and Israelite Gentiles (the 10 tribes assimilated into the nations). Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel, and Romans 11 indicate that all of the House of Israel will be saved. Remnants of all 12 tribes.

The CD also clarified that Gentiles or foreigners that attach themselves to the House of Israel, or the olive tree by being grafted in (also Romans 11) will be saved. Not in anyway just the lost sheep of the 10 tribes.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 05:45:37 by Jaime »

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #58 on: Wed Feb 22, 2012 - 01:20:01 »
I thank Jaime for putting the video on. Some interesting and seemingly valid points there...But...near the end of the video, the speaker was strongly suggesting, I believe, that believers in the Messiah should take up the keeping of the laws peculiar to the Old Covenant. I had no idea what the speaker was attempting to prove until he began that. If the Gentiles of the NT were indeed the lost ten tribes, it does not necessarily follow that they should resume keeping the Mosaic Covenant. As some may have already said, all are called to be receipients of the promises in the covenant made with Abraham, not to the keeping of the Law of Moses.

No matter how many times the Twelve Tribes of Israel are referenced in both Old and New Testaments, Paul, James, Peter, The Holy Spirit, and the Elders at Jerusalem agreed that the Gentiles (lost ten tribes, if you will) should not be burdened with keeping the Mosaic Law.

xheathern nailed it. The Jewish friend of the speaker gave much the same reason for the Jews rejecting Jesus that Paul did in Romans 9. If we convert the Jews to a messiah that instructs them how to be saved by works of the Law, we have wasted our time. Even if the speaker is not suggesting keeping the Mosaic Covenant Laws to gain salvation, that is what it would eventually become.
I suggest you watch his video Case for the Covenant.  Everything is very, very well explained in regards to what you posted about.

Offline JGIG

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Manna: 3
  • Gender: Female
  • Love Goes Where Law Can't
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #59 on: Wed Jun 06, 2012 - 18:23:56 »
Hi All,

I know I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but I came across this thread while doing some research and may have something to offer here.

I've studied several of Jim Staley's teachings as part of my study of the Hebrew Roots Movement (in which, make no mistake, Staley is promoting himself as a prominent teacher).  I just happen to have done a review on another forum of the teaching in  the OP of this thread.

I submit that review here, modified slightly to conform to this forum's rules.  If you'd like a link to the original review, you can PM me for a link.

I, too, watched the entire, excruciating 1:10 minutes (the length of the oringinal video - Staley scrubbed the original video posting due to lots of negative comments and charges of racism) over a period of a few hours to study out each point that Staley made.  The following review is not exhaustive; I just hit the high points that really stood out to me to serve to disqualify it and Staley as a legitamate teaching/teacher.  It should be noted that after I posted this review, Staley removed the original link and reposted the teaching later with a different URL, adding 10 minutes of additional commentary to the teaching for damage control, as my review and other feedback that he received painted the teaching in a negative light.  Many folks noticed the Armstrongesque (Worldwide Church of God) teaching with a Hebrew Roots twist regarding the 'Lost Ten Tribes' of Israel.  While, to his credit, Staley tries to knock the elitist edges off the Ephraimite/Two House teaching, it, at its core is still an elitist teaching, inclusive of Israel, and excluding Gentiles.

So if you look at the following review with the link posted in the OP, the time stamps for my review will be slightly off (but not by much).  Anyway, here it is:

Okay. I took the challenge. I went through this MESSAGE (YouTube - ‪Jim Staley - Identity Crisis -This message will change your world!‬‏) bit by bit. Full disclosure: I've listened to other teachings of Staley's and do come to the table with a pretty set opinion about what he teaches.

Here's what I learned:

The first several minutes Staley creates a need for what he's selling, just as any good salesman will do. The Church is in CRISIS! And Passion For Truth has the answers the Church needs!

5:44 - Here comes the fair warning that he's getting to reset your paradigm, and he's an expert at setting up what you believe as error so that he can replace it with his version of 'truth':

"By the end of this weekend . . . we want to encourage you to do one thing. Look up at the signs. 'Cause they're on their way. And if you will just open your mind this weekend and especially during this message I will promise you the Holy Spirit will begin to move in your heart and begin to recalibrate the language on the sign because one of 'em just might say 'one way' and all your life you thought it meant to go the other way.

Okay? So bear with me as we walk through this because some of you are going to be astounded and even shocked, maybe even, with some of the feedback we get is be blown away at this message and I wanna say that this is not my message, it is right out of the Scriptures."


What that is basically saying is that what you know, you really don't know, and he's going to correct your paradigm, and he promises that the Holy Spirit is going to back him up.

He tells you that the language you know you really don't know, so it needs to be 'recalibrated' and that all your life, what you know to be true is really the opposite of what you thought. He speaks rapidly - moving the listener hurriedly down his prepared path of thought. He's good, I'll give him that.

Oh, and then he says that it's not his message, but it's right out of the Scriptures. I'm sure no false teacher has ever used that line, right?

He then goes on to create the need for the message he's bringing: If you're there, it's because you want to 'go deeper', and that we're in a 'crisis'. So he's setting up his version about what the crisis is and how 'we' got there.

The question is 'who are you'?

The most significant thing I found about this teaching was that a teacher speaking to a room full of Christians did not even once talk about who we are in Christ.

Not once.

He went to purposefully go about re-identifying who 'believers' are - and that is to re-define them as 'Ephraim', aka, Israel, for the purpose of putting them under Mosaic Covenant Law for the purpose of 'fixing' the 'crisis' in which the Body finds itself.

A curious and disturbing series of statements of 'fact':
"As I began to read the front of the Book I began to discover that every single story found in the Bible is about me and my Messiah and and when He comes back and I just need to listen and I need to hear."

I listened to that and thought, "What about the Cross and what Messiah did there?" It's NOT just about you and Messiah and Him coming back; there's a LOT of in-between stuff there - a Body of Christ and how she is to live and walk and minister the Gospel to the world UNTIL He comes back! And our focus is to be on the Gospel, not just His return!

And then this statement:
(17:20) "Ladies and Gentlemen we started out in the Garden - we started out in Caanan, the Promised Land, the Enemy came he snatched us away we've been in Egypt for 6000 years but at some point, very soon, I believe, the Messiah is going to come back, Yeshua, the same Yehoshua, Yeshua who led them in the Promised Land so many years ago will LEAD US AGAIN into the Promised Land can I get an amen from that?"

Um, no, you can not get an amen from that. For one thing, Yeshua (Jesus) and Yehoshua (Joshua) are NOT the same person. Joshua was a type and a shadow of Who Jesus is and symbolized what Jesus would do with the work of the Cross, but they are NOT the same person.

Speaking of the Cross, did Staley forget that Jesus did come about 2000 years ago and did the work of the Cross, freeing those who would believe on Him from the bondage of sin (the type and shadow Egypt)? We've been in bondage for 6000 years? Really? Everyone? Even those in Christ? Staley's picture is a Cross-less one, in which he paints a picture without any freedom from bondage until the RETURN of Christ. That is not the Gospel, people. We have freedom from the bondage of sin NOW in Christ.

Around 20 minutes in he again talks about a covenant binding 'Israel' to the commandments until 'Messiah returns'. He TOTALLY doesn't refer to the FIRST COMING of Jesus - the Advent, the coming of God in the flesh to do the work of the Cross.

Around 20:21 he asks if there are any businessmen in the audience and recognizes them and then says the scariest thing in the world is to be audited. I thought that was kind of funny considering Staley's history with the State of Missouri.

Around 27 minutes, Staley asserts that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK. Well, that's only partially true. Many were assimilated into the peoples of the world - that was part of God's judgement upon them for their idolatry. But some DID 'come back'. This article gives a short and common sense view of the matter: http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/losttentribes.htm

The rest of Staley's teaching is false, based on a false premise that NONE of the Northern Tribes returned to Israel. Yet there is reference to Anna, from the tribe of Asher (Luke 22:36 - 36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher.). If NONE of the tribes ever came back, then WHERE DID ANNA COME FROM? Yet hundreds of years down the line, there she is. And James, in his opening salutation greets the TWELVE tribes scattered among the nations. Not TWO . . . TWELVE. That means that the TEN were not lost - they were all over the world just as many members of Judah and Benjamin were. And Paul speaks in the present tense about the TWELVE tribes here: Acts 26:6-7 6 And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; 7 the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day [present tense].

(appx. 31:00) Staley goes straight to the Millennium . . . He skips over the Cross AGAIN. He talks about how Yeshua must purify His bride before He can take her to His chamber. "That's why Israel had to go back to the wilderness for 40 years" he says. Pardon me, but what about the Cross? What did Jesus accomplish there? He says we have to be purified by coming back to the Law and at that point we become worthy to be Yeshua's bride. Wow.

Again, I have to ask: Does the Cross and the Resurrection have any part in Staley's theology? I'll keep watching to find out . . .

(32:22) Staley is stating that in NT times most of the northern tribes still knew who they were and lived in the Land. WHAT?? He just got done telling us FIVE minutes ago that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK! Minute 33 Staley says
" . . . still MILLIONS of them lived right there outside of Israel."

But I thought he said that they never came back?!

(33:40) Here it comes . . . who did Jesus REALLY come for . . .

Whoa! Side track . . . Staley's going on about "re-defining" Biblical terms! Love this quote:
"All Scripture cannot mean the New Testament! Now I believe the New Testament is Scripture BUT that's not what he was talking to! He was referring to what . . . to the Tanakh - the Old Testament."

Staley TOTALLY blows off the NT as Scriptures in the days of the infant Body of Christ when INTERNAL EVIDENCE in the New Testament itself tells us otherwise:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


Paul's writings were being copied and distributed in the infant Body of Christ and acknowledged as Scripture by the other apostles. Staley is so wrong on this point.

Staley continues (34:50):
"So if we're going to define any Bible words, guess what? You need to get rid of the New Testament for a moment  ::Hooked:: and define it by the only dictionary that exists at that time, which is your Hebrew Scriptures. So we're going to find out what the word "sheep" means . . . "
( oh boy here we go . . . )

(37:55) Staley is implying that Jesus came ONLY for the lost sheep - Israel. Try this Scripture on for size, Mr. Staley:

Romans 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.

Offline ChristNU

  • THE HOPE OF GLORY
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1953
  • Manna: 132
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #60 on: Wed Jun 06, 2012 - 18:58:14 »

Wow JGIG, thank you for taking the time to put that all together, and for posting it in support of what many here have been saying.

 And thank you for the website, it is a great resource for the truth of Gods grace. Y'all do an amazing job with it! Hope to see you posting more here if possible. God bless you!



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #61 on: Wed Jun 06, 2012 - 19:17:32 »
Hi All,

I know I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but I came across this thread while doing some research and may have something to offer here.

I've studied several of Jim Staley's teachings as part of my study of the Hebrew Roots Movement (in which, make no mistake, Staley is promoting himself as a prominent teacher).  I just happen to have done a review on another forum of the teaching in  the OP of this thread.

I submit that review here, modified slightly to conform to this forum's rules.  If you'd like a link to the original review, you can PM me for a link.

I, too, watched the entire, excruciating 1:10 minutes (the length of the oringinal video - Staley scrubbed the original video posting due to lots of negative comments and charges of racism) over a period of a few hours to study out each point that Staley made.  The following review is not exhaustive; I just hit the high points that really stood out to me to serve to disqualify it and Staley as a legitamate teaching/teacher.  It should be noted that after I posted this review, Staley removed the original link and reposted the teaching later with a different URL, adding 10 minutes of additional commentary to the teaching for damage control, as my review and other feedback that he received painted the teaching in a negative light.  Many folks noticed the Armstrongesque (Worldwide Church of God) teaching with a Hebrew Roots twist regarding the 'Lost Ten Tribes' of Israel.  While, to his credit, Staley tries to knock the elitist edges off the Ephraimite/Two House teaching, it, at its core is still an elitist teaching, inclusive of Israel, and excluding Gentiles.

So if you look at the following review with the link posted in the OP, the time stamps for my review will be slightly off (but not by much).  Anyway, here it is:

Okay. I took the challenge. I went through this MESSAGE (YouTube - ‪Jim Staley - Identity Crisis -This message will change your world!‬‏) bit by bit. Full disclosure: I've listened to other teachings of Staley's and do come to the table with a pretty set opinion about what he teaches.

Here's what I learned:

The first several minutes Staley creates a need for what he's selling, just as any good salesman will do. The Church is in CRISIS! And Passion For Truth has the answers the Church needs!

5:44 - Here comes the fair warning that he's getting to reset your paradigm, and he's an expert at setting up what you believe as error so that he can replace it with his version of 'truth':

"By the end of this weekend . . . we want to encourage you to do one thing. Look up at the signs. 'Cause they're on their way. And if you will just open your mind this weekend and especially during this message I will promise you the Holy Spirit will begin to move in your heart and begin to recalibrate the language on the sign because one of 'em just might say 'one way' and all your life you thought it meant to go the other way.

Okay? So bear with me as we walk through this because some of you are going to be astounded and even shocked, maybe even, with some of the feedback we get is be blown away at this message and I wanna say that this is not my message, it is right out of the Scriptures."


What that is basically saying is that what you know, you really don't know, and he's going to correct your paradigm, and he promises that the Holy Spirit is going to back him up.

He tells you that the language you know you really don't know, so it needs to be 'recalibrated' and that all your life, what you know to be true is really the opposite of what you thought. He speaks rapidly - moving the listener hurriedly down his prepared path of thought. He's good, I'll give him that.

Oh, and then he says that it's not his message, but it's right out of the Scriptures. I'm sure no false teacher has ever used that line, right?

He then goes on to create the need for the message he's bringing: If you're there, it's because you want to 'go deeper', and that we're in a 'crisis'. So he's setting up his version about what the crisis is and how 'we' got there.

The question is 'who are you'?

The most significant thing I found about this teaching was that a teacher speaking to a room full of Christians did not even once talk about who we are in Christ.

Not once.

He went to purposefully go about re-identifying who 'believers' are - and that is to re-define them as 'Ephraim', aka, Israel, for the purpose of putting them under Mosaic Covenant Law for the purpose of 'fixing' the 'crisis' in which the Body finds itself.

A curious and disturbing series of statements of 'fact':
"As I began to read the front of the Book I began to discover that every single story found in the Bible is about me and my Messiah and and when He comes back and I just need to listen and I need to hear."

I listened to that and thought, "What about the Cross and what Messiah did there?" It's NOT just about you and Messiah and Him coming back; there's a LOT of in-between stuff there - a Body of Christ and how she is to live and walk and minister the Gospel to the world UNTIL He comes back! And our focus is to be on the Gospel, not just His return!

And then this statement:
(17:20) "Ladies and Gentlemen we started out in the Garden - we started out in Caanan, the Promised Land, the Enemy came he snatched us away we've been in Egypt for 6000 years but at some point, very soon, I believe, the Messiah is going to come back, Yeshua, the same Yehoshua, Yeshua who led them in the Promised Land so many years ago will LEAD US AGAIN into the Promised Land can I get an amen from that?"

Um, no, you can not get an amen from that. For one thing, Yeshua (Jesus) and Yehoshua (Joshua) are NOT the same person. Joshua was a type and a shadow of Who Jesus is and symbolized what Jesus would do with the work of the Cross, but they are NOT the same person.

Speaking of the Cross, did Staley forget that Jesus did come about 2000 years ago and did the work of the Cross, freeing those who would believe on Him from the bondage of sin (the type and shadow Egypt)? We've been in bondage for 6000 years? Really? Everyone? Even those in Christ? Staley's picture is a Cross-less one, in which he paints a picture without any freedom from bondage until the RETURN of Christ. That is not the Gospel, people. We have freedom from the bondage of sin NOW in Christ.

Around 20 minutes in he again talks about a covenant binding 'Israel' to the commandments until 'Messiah returns'. He TOTALLY doesn't refer to the FIRST COMING of Jesus - the Advent, the coming of God in the flesh to do the work of the Cross.

Around 20:21 he asks if there are any businessmen in the audience and recognizes them and then says the scariest thing in the world is to be audited. I thought that was kind of funny considering Staley's history with the State of Missouri.

Around 27 minutes, Staley asserts that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK. Well, that's only partially true. Many were assimilated into the peoples of the world - that was part of God's judgement upon them for their idolatry. But some DID 'come back'. This article gives a short and common sense view of the matter: http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/losttentribes.htm

The rest of Staley's teaching is false, based on a false premise that NONE of the Northern Tribes returned to Israel. Yet there is reference to Anna, from the tribe of Asher (Luke 22:36 - 36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher.). If NONE of the tribes ever came back, then WHERE DID ANNA COME FROM? Yet hundreds of years down the line, there she is. And James, in his opening salutation greets the TWELVE tribes scattered among the nations. Not TWO . . . TWELVE. That means that the TEN were not lost - they were all over the world just as many members of Judah and Benjamin were. And Paul speaks in the present tense about the TWELVE tribes here: Acts 26:6-7 6 And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; 7 the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day [present tense].

(appx. 31:00) Staley goes straight to the Millennium . . . He skips over the Cross AGAIN. He talks about how Yeshua must purify His bride before He can take her to His chamber. "That's why Israel had to go back to the wilderness for 40 years" he says. Pardon me, but what about the Cross? What did Jesus accomplish there? He says we have to be purified by coming back to the Law and at that point we become worthy to be Yeshua's bride. Wow.

Again, I have to ask: Does the Cross and the Resurrection have any part in Staley's theology? I'll keep watching to find out . . .

(32:22) Staley is stating that in NT times most of the northern tribes still knew who they were and lived in the Land. WHAT?? He just got done telling us FIVE minutes ago that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK! Minute 33 Staley says
" . . . still MILLIONS of them lived right there outside of Israel."

But I thought he said that they never came back?!

(33:40) Here it comes . . . who did Jesus REALLY come for . . .

Whoa! Side track . . . Staley's going on about "re-defining" Biblical terms! Love this quote:
"All Scripture cannot mean the New Testament! Now I believe the New Testament is Scripture BUT that's not what he was talking to! He was referring to what . . . to the Tanakh - the Old Testament."

Staley TOTALLY blows off the NT as Scriptures in the days of the infant Body of Christ when INTERNAL EVIDENCE in the New Testament itself tells us otherwise:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


Paul's writings were being copied and distributed in the infant Body of Christ and acknowledged as Scripture by the other apostles. Staley is so wrong on this point.

Staley continues (34:50):
"So if we're going to define any Bible words, guess what? You need to get rid of the New Testament for a moment  ::Hooked:: and define it by the only dictionary that exists at that time, which is your Hebrew Scriptures. So we're going to find out what the word "sheep" means . . . "
( oh boy here we go . . . )

(37:55) Staley is implying that Jesus came ONLY for the lost sheep - Israel. Try this Scripture on for size, Mr. Staley:

Romans 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.

Offline JGIG

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Manna: 3
  • Gender: Female
  • Love Goes Where Law Can't
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #62 on: Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 00:25:28 »

Wow JGIG, thank you for taking the time to put that all together, and for posting it in support of what many here have been saying.   

Oh, it was put together months ago when someone who goes to Staley's fellowship posted it on another forum I post at.  I had to play with the formatting a bit to get it to work here, but no big deal.  When I came across this thread, I was glad to have already had the resource put together  ::smile::.  I think it's really important for folks to know what Staley teaches; his 'ministry', though relatively small 'in real life', has grown quite a bit via the internet, and he definitely preaches a different Jesus and a different Gospel. 
 
Quote
And thank you for the website, it is a great resource for the truth of Gods grace. Y'all do an amazing job with it! Hope to see you posting more here if possible. God bless you!
Thanks for the kind words about Joyfully Growing In Grace . . . the goal has always been for JGIG to be a resource for believers to not only examine the issues in the Hebrew Roots and other Law 'keeping' sects, but also for believers to be built up in their faith and maturity in Christ. 

I don't know if I'll be posting here much - I post sporadically on one other forum right now.  Time-wise, as a homeschooling wife and mom of seven I really can't commit to much more than that.  Please feel free to shoot me an email if you see a thread pop up where you think I might have some insight, though  ::typing::.  My email addy is on my profile and it's also in the 'Contact JGIG' tab at my site.

Grace and peace to you as you contend for the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
-JGIG


Offline JGIG

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Manna: 3
  • Gender: Female
  • Love Goes Where Law Can't
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #63 on: Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 01:26:35 »
With those comments

I'd say you hit the nail on the head.....

You nailed it perfectly

Having agonized through the so called teaching presented in that video 

Your comments are exactly what I found to be true as well

Welcome to the forum

I am honored to give you your 1st forum manna!

Thanks, gospel =o).

Having listened to more of Staley's teachings than I'd really like to, I encourage anyone doing so to watch/listen carefully, as Staley is really adept at mixing truth and error.  What he is not good at doing is talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the forgiveness of sins, and new Life in Christ and what that means.  Staley and other Torah teachers are all about self-sanctification via Old Covenant adherences.  An example of that would be in some recent teachings where Staley uses the phrase "Take every thought captive", and then totally leaves out the "to Christ" part  ::frown::!  And then he re-tools the phrase to say, "You need to audit your thoughts", and that "true freedom comes from walking in YHWH's Torah, His commandments".  So it becomes very much about what YOU, via Old Covenant Law must do (which produces fruits of the flesh), and very little about what the Holy Spirit does in the heart surrendered to Him (which produces the Fruits of the Spirit).

2 Corinthians 3
1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


That sums it up nicely, and we in Christ should choose the obvious New Covenant of the Spirit Who gives LIFE!  You all have done a great job of sharing Scriptures that defend the New Covenant and who we are in Christ!  Blessings to you guys as you continue to contend for the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

GaryMac

  • Guest
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #64 on: Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 11:58:41 »
Hi All,

I know I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but I came across this thread while doing some research and may have something to offer here.

I've studied several of Jim Staley's teachings as part of my study of the Hebrew Roots Movement (in which, make no mistake, Staley is promoting himself as a prominent teacher).  I just happen to have done a review on another forum of the teaching in  the OP of this thread.

I submit that review here, modified slightly to conform to this forum's rules.  If you'd like a link to the original review, you can PM me for a link.

I, too, watched the entire, excruciating 1:10 minutes (the length of the oringinal video - Staley scrubbed the original video posting due to lots of negative comments and charges of racism) over a period of a few hours to study out each point that Staley made.  The following review is not exhaustive; I just hit the high points that really stood out to me to serve to disqualify it and Staley as a legitamate teaching/teacher.  It should be noted that after I posted this review, Staley removed the original link and reposted the teaching later with a different URL, adding 10 minutes of additional commentary to the teaching for damage control, as my review and other feedback that he received painted the teaching in a negative light.  Many folks noticed the Armstrongesque (Worldwide Church of God) teaching with a Hebrew Roots twist regarding the 'Lost Ten Tribes' of Israel.  While, to his credit, Staley tries to knock the elitist edges off the Ephraimite/Two House teaching, it, at its core is still an elitist teaching, inclusive of Israel, and excluding Gentiles.

So if you look at the following review with the link posted in the OP, the time stamps for my review will be slightly off (but not by much).  Anyway, here it is:

Okay. I took the challenge. I went through this MESSAGE (YouTube - ‪Jim Staley - Identity Crisis -This message will change your world!‬‏) bit by bit. Full disclosure: I've listened to other teachings of Staley's and do come to the table with a pretty set opinion about what he teaches.

Here's what I learned:

The first several minutes Staley creates a need for what he's selling, just as any good salesman will do. The Church is in CRISIS! And Passion For Truth has the answers the Church needs!

5:44 - Here comes the fair warning that he's getting to reset your paradigm, and he's an expert at setting up what you believe as error so that he can replace it with his version of 'truth':

"By the end of this weekend . . . we want to encourage you to do one thing. Look up at the signs. 'Cause they're on their way. And if you will just open your mind this weekend and especially during this message I will promise you the Holy Spirit will begin to move in your heart and begin to recalibrate the language on the sign because one of 'em just might say 'one way' and all your life you thought it meant to go the other way.

Okay? So bear with me as we walk through this because some of you are going to be astounded and even shocked, maybe even, with some of the feedback we get is be blown away at this message and I wanna say that this is not my message, it is right out of the Scriptures."


What that is basically saying is that what you know, you really don't know, and he's going to correct your paradigm, and he promises that the Holy Spirit is going to back him up.

He tells you that the language you know you really don't know, so it needs to be 'recalibrated' and that all your life, what you know to be true is really the opposite of what you thought. He speaks rapidly - moving the listener hurriedly down his prepared path of thought. He's good, I'll give him that.

Oh, and then he says that it's not his message, but it's right out of the Scriptures. I'm sure no false teacher has ever used that line, right?

He then goes on to create the need for the message he's bringing: If you're there, it's because you want to 'go deeper', and that we're in a 'crisis'. So he's setting up his version about what the crisis is and how 'we' got there.

The question is 'who are you'?

The most significant thing I found about this teaching was that a teacher speaking to a room full of Christians did not even once talk about who we are in Christ.

Not once.

He went to purposefully go about re-identifying who 'believers' are - and that is to re-define them as 'Ephraim', aka, Israel, for the purpose of putting them under Mosaic Covenant Law for the purpose of 'fixing' the 'crisis' in which the Body finds itself.

A curious and disturbing series of statements of 'fact':
"As I began to read the front of the Book I began to discover that every single story found in the Bible is about me and my Messiah and and when He comes back and I just need to listen and I need to hear."

I listened to that and thought, "What about the Cross and what Messiah did there?" It's NOT just about you and Messiah and Him coming back; there's a LOT of in-between stuff there - a Body of Christ and how she is to live and walk and minister the Gospel to the world UNTIL He comes back! And our focus is to be on the Gospel, not just His return!

And then this statement:
(17:20) "Ladies and Gentlemen we started out in the Garden - we started out in Caanan, the Promised Land, the Enemy came he snatched us away we've been in Egypt for 6000 years but at some point, very soon, I believe, the Messiah is going to come back, Yeshua, the same Yehoshua, Yeshua who led them in the Promised Land so many years ago will LEAD US AGAIN into the Promised Land can I get an amen from that?"

Um, no, you can not get an amen from that. For one thing, Yeshua (Jesus) and Yehoshua (Joshua) are NOT the same person. Joshua was a type and a shadow of Who Jesus is and symbolized what Jesus would do with the work of the Cross, but they are NOT the same person.

Speaking of the Cross, did Staley forget that Jesus did come about 2000 years ago and did the work of the Cross, freeing those who would believe on Him from the bondage of sin (the type and shadow Egypt)? We've been in bondage for 6000 years? Really? Everyone? Even those in Christ? Staley's picture is a Cross-less one, in which he paints a picture without any freedom from bondage until the RETURN of Christ. That is not the Gospel, people. We have freedom from the bondage of sin NOW in Christ.

Around 20 minutes in he again talks about a covenant binding 'Israel' to the commandments until 'Messiah returns'. He TOTALLY doesn't refer to the FIRST COMING of Jesus - the Advent, the coming of God in the flesh to do the work of the Cross.

Around 20:21 he asks if there are any businessmen in the audience and recognizes them and then says the scariest thing in the world is to be audited. I thought that was kind of funny considering Staley's history with the State of Missouri.

Around 27 minutes, Staley asserts that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK. Well, that's only partially true. Many were assimilated into the peoples of the world - that was part of God's judgement upon them for their idolatry. But some DID 'come back'. This article gives a short and common sense view of the matter: http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/losttentribes.htm

The rest of Staley's teaching is false, based on a false premise that NONE of the Northern Tribes returned to Israel. Yet there is reference to Anna, from the tribe of Asher (Luke 22:36 - 36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher.). If NONE of the tribes ever came back, then WHERE DID ANNA COME FROM? Yet hundreds of years down the line, there she is. And James, in his opening salutation greets the TWELVE tribes scattered among the nations. Not TWO . . . TWELVE. That means that the TEN were not lost - they were all over the world just as many members of Judah and Benjamin were. And Paul speaks in the present tense about the TWELVE tribes here: Acts 26:6-7 6 And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; 7 the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day [present tense].

(appx. 31:00) Staley goes straight to the Millennium . . . He skips over the Cross AGAIN. He talks about how Yeshua must purify His bride before He can take her to His chamber. "That's why Israel had to go back to the wilderness for 40 years" he says. Pardon me, but what about the Cross? What did Jesus accomplish there? He says we have to be purified by coming back to the Law and at that point we become worthy to be Yeshua's bride. Wow.

Again, I have to ask: Does the Cross and the Resurrection have any part in Staley's theology? I'll keep watching to find out . . .

(32:22) Staley is stating that in NT times most of the northern tribes still knew who they were and lived in the Land. WHAT?? He just got done telling us FIVE minutes ago that the Northern tribes NEVER CAME BACK! Minute 33 Staley says
" . . . still MILLIONS of them lived right there outside of Israel."

But I thought he said that they never came back?!

(33:40) Here it comes . . . who did Jesus REALLY come for . . .

Whoa! Side track . . . Staley's going on about "re-defining" Biblical terms! Love this quote:
"All Scripture cannot mean the New Testament! Now I believe the New Testament is Scripture BUT that's not what he was talking to! He was referring to what . . . to the Tanakh - the Old Testament."

Staley TOTALLY blows off the NT as Scriptures in the days of the infant Body of Christ when INTERNAL EVIDENCE in the New Testament itself tells us otherwise:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


Paul's writings were being copied and distributed in the infant Body of Christ and acknowledged as Scripture by the other apostles. Staley is so wrong on this point.

Staley continues (34:50):
"So if we're going to define any Bible words, guess what? You need to get rid of the New Testament for a moment  ::Hooked:: and define it by the only dictionary that exists at that time, which is your Hebrew Scriptures. So we're going to find out what the word "sheep" means . . . "
( oh boy here we go . . . )

(37:55) Staley is implying that Jesus came ONLY for the lost sheep - Israel. Try this Scripture on for size, Mr. Staley:

Romans 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #65 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 00:12:43 »

Wow JGIG, thank you for taking the time to put that all together, and for posting it in support of what many here have been saying.

 And thank you for the website, it is a great resource for the truth of Gods grace. Y'all do an amazing job with it! Hope to see you posting more here if possible. God bless you!



Anyone can post a review of something they fundamentally disagree with.  Basically, he disagrees because he holds to a different theology.  What we can't do is actually have Jim's responses on this subject, nor do we have Jim's critiques for the doctrine and theology that JGIG clings to. 

Without dialogue back-and-forth it is just pointless to listen to one side's characterization of the other.  It would be better to just listen to Jim and decide for yourself.  That being said, I doubt many will openly listen to something that doesn't fit the box of beliefs they find themselves having. 

Offline notreligus

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #66 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 07:51:21 »
I felt like my church kept a lot of God's word from me unintentionally by basically relegating the OT to "do not need" status. If one doesn't understand the front of the book, it is difficult to apply the back of the book. I fully undrstand people;'s concern about the Hebrew Roots thing. I don't want to be Jewish nor do I want to go back under the law. But staley's explanation of the Lost Sheep of Israel was very interesting and made a lot of sense to me in light of the story of Joseph and the revelation of his identity to his brothers and the fact that the Bible is on story from Genesis to Revelation.

I heard nothing in the video to take away from the fact that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

These movements are interpreting the New Testament with the Old Testament while we should be interpreting the Old Testament by the New Testament.

The reconciliation of mankind has come by a Person and not a people.   

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31123
  • Manna: 639
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #67 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 08:15:15 »
The New Testament is the continuation of God's one story. Not two stories. The story was written to, for and about God's people and those that are grafted into God's people. And of course Jesus is the reconciliation of all mankind. The promise made to Abraham.

In my background, the OT was poo poo'd as nothing more than a reference book. The first and second testaments are all about Jesus and God's redemption of mankind. One thing I noticed after studying the OT extensively is that Grace of God was very much present on every page of the OT just as pictures and shadows of Jesus are.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 08:32:47 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #68 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 08:35:20 »
These movements are interpreting the New Testament with the Old Testament .......

And they would be correct.  All the NT authors were well versed in the OT before ever putting pen to paper. So to come from the same viewpoint as the NT authors, one must look at the OT first and then see how the New fits with/modifies what is already in existence.

IT is christian hubris that seeks to de-couple from the Hebrew scriptures.

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Jim Staley - Identity Crisis. This will Change Your World
« Reply #69 on: Tue Aug 27, 2013 - 13:03:21 »
These movements are interpreting the New Testament with the Old Testament .......

And they would be correct.  All the NT authors were well versed in the OT before ever putting pen to paper. So to come from the same viewpoint as the NT authors, one must look at the OT first and then see how the New fits with/modifies what is already in existence.

IT is christian hubris that seeks to de-couple from the Hebrew scriptures.
Excellent post.

 

     
anything