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Offline Truthcomber

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John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« on: Sat Jul 09, 2016 - 18:18:01 »
Hi All,


John 3: 3 KJV)…Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (soul) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Comment:  Emphasis in parenthesis is mine.  “Born of the water” is not speaking here of water baptism but of being born of the soul of Christ.  Soul can be body, spirit of the body, or both.  Born of the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit

John 3: 13 (KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Comment: Before Christ’s death and resurrection no one’s soul could be resurrected into heaven.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 09, 2016 - 18:23:51 by Truthcomber »

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John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« on: Sat Jul 09, 2016 - 18:18:01 »

Offline scalpelsurgeon

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 09, 2016 - 22:13:57 »
With every new doctrine comes a bent on the scriptures associated with that doctrine.

What you have said, Truthcomber, is new to me.

I've heard it said, if it's new, it ain't true, and if it's true, it ain't new!

Traditionally John 3:3, when it speaks of water, is referring to 1) natural birth (the water that breaks before a child comes out of the womb), 2) the water of the word, 3) the water refers to the Holy Ghost, in which the Greek word for and in this verse,  kai,  would be translated even, or 4) it is referring to the waters of baptism in Jesus' name, which is substantiated by Acts 2:38-39, Colossians 2:11-12, Romans 6:1-7, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 4:10,12, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 22:16, and more!

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jul 09, 2016 - 22:13:57 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:02:31 »
Scalpelsurgeon wrote:


"With every new doctrine comes a bent on the scriptures associated with that doctrine.

What you have said, Truthcomber, is new to me.

I've heard it said, if it's new, it ain't true, and if it's true, it ain't new!"


Answer: Your discourse above is simply not true.  Daniel said that the words of the Almighty will be open to new understanding at the end of this age.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

More so than the new understanding was opened to the apostles during Christ’s time.

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.  17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I 'm not saying I know everything, and neither do you.  For your approach seems traditional and narrow.






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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:02:31 »

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:26:30 »
“Born of the water” is not speaking here of water baptism but of being born of the soul of Christ.
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean by water being the soul of Christ, thereby being born of and by that soul of Christ. Regardless, the context drives our understanding. If one carefully follows the context, then they should have no trouble understanding the purpose as to why Jesus mentioned water in John 3:5. If poor Nicodemus' understanding was not so simple and weak, then Jesus would have never had use water along with being born of the Spirit of God. Remember it was Nicodemus who ask the question:
Quote
John 3:4~:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Our Lord Jesus immediately came back and explain carefully the new birth, listen to our Lord:
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John 3:5~"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
He said......"Except a man be born of water" ONCE; and of the Spirit....which is being born again; who alone is the only active agent working when one is born again! Jesus only used water because of the question asked by Nicodemus, or else, he would have never used water in the same breath with being born of the Spirit. Need proof? I have it in verse eight:
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The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus omitted water when describing, or explaining the new birth....WHY? Simple..... water in verse five is referring to the our first birth into this world...the sack of water breaks, and one is then born into this world. But, before one is able to see and understand, that person MUST BE BORN AGAIN just as Jesus said to Nicodemus who came to him confessing that he was a true prophet of God, for no man could have done the miracles that Jesus had done, and not be sent from God.......was Nicodemus' child like confession.  Jesus was telling Nicodemus, that if he truly believe what he is saying, then he could only do so, by the fact that he had first been born of the Spirit of God.  So many miss these wonderful truths hidden in John 3.

I have  a question for you.  How could Jesus say these words:
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John 3: 13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. "
How could Jesus' words be true (and we KNOW that they were) that He was BOTH speaking to Nicodemus, and he was in heaven as well! How could he be in equally two places at the same time? No other man could do this. And, if he was in two places at the same time, in what sense could it be said that he was?
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:42:10 by RB »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:26:30 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:54:52 »
Hi All,

Water Baptism is only symbolic of the reality and shows one's commitment to accepting Christ sacrifice and applying it to our lives  Some denominations even claim that it is not necessary.  I believe that it shows our commitment.  The underlying reality is that we die with Christ's death and are resurrected with him to his new life—his human life.  Water baptism seems to be more of a NT phenomenon.  The prophets were anointed with oil (symbolic of the Holy Spirit).  Water seems to symbolize the soul spirit of Christ (Ezk 11:19, 36:26).

 Matt 23:43 42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day  (my emphasis see Luke 19:9: this time period) shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Comment: The thief on the cross was not baptized in water.   Yet he was promised to be in paradise after Christ's ascension into heaven. 

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Comment: These had already received the holy spirit before they were baptized.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 04:54:52 »



Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 06:22:23 »
Hi Senior Member
You wrote:
“He said......"Except a man be born of water" ONCE; and of the Spirit....which is being born again; who alone is the only active agent working when one is born again! Jesus only used water because of the question asked by Nicodemus, or else, he would have never used water in the same breath with being born of the Spirit. Need proof? I have it in verse eight:”

Comment:  Here is the question by Nicodemus:

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Here is Christ’s answer:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except (future tense) a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Comment: “of “ in “of the spirit” is an added word not in the original Greek. Both born of water and spirit is of future tense.

Comment: Nicodemus thought at first Christ was only talking about being born again physically.  But Christ was talking about both. 

Vs 9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, how can these things be?
 
Comment: What things (pural) is he confused about? It is being born again of Christ’s humanity and the holy spirit.  It is being ultimately born of his body also.

Eph 5:29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33  Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Comment: So this answers vs 8.  Born of Christ encompasses his soul and body ultimately.  Born of the spirit encompasses just that.
 
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24  For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Comment: We must be born not only of the spirit but also of the Word of God(Christ) (Dan 12:30). For as he developed patience and suffered, so must we.  God does not change, but Christ did.   


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 06:22:23 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 06:59:12 »
Baptism baptism baptism, sweetest name I know.....

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 07:54:06 »
Comment: “of “ in “of the spirit” is an added word not in the original Greek. Both born of water and spirit is of future tense.
You are assuming something that you cannot prove. This tactic is use many times by men, who need to change the wording to fit what they either think the scriptures are saying, or want them to say, in order to support their doctrine. The preposition "of" was indeed part of Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus, which the overall context supports; based upon Nicodemus' question and Jesus' response to him. Your understanding would of necessity change the flow of the discourse, without any reason of doing so. The only reason of doing from your standpoint, would be to inject your understanding; which as we shall see, is not according to the teaching word of God.
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Both born of water and spirit is of future tense.
You cannot prove that with the context that is before us. You saying that, does not prove your point~all it does is to prove that men are willing to corrupt the scriptures with no conscience of doing so. Again, if water means anything other than our natural birth into this world, then, why did Christ leave off water in verse 8? That puts the burden of proof on your shoulder to give a biblical answer to that question, which you will not be able to do.
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Nicodemus thought at first Christ was only talking about being born again physically.  But Christ was talking about both. 
It is impossible to take water from verse five and believe that Christ was speaking about being born of his body, which is indeed a strange doctrine, not to mention, impossible.
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What things (pural) is he confused about? It is being born again of Christ’s humanity and the holy spirit.  It is being ultimately born of his body also.
You again, are assuming something you cannot prove from this discourse. You using Nicodemus' words:
Quote
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Taking the phrase~"these things" and adding being born of Christ's humanity, when that was never mentioned by either of them, proves your error more than giving you credibility to your understanding. The phrase~"these things" has reference being born again by the Spirit of God. If Christ had only said that ye must be born again, and stop, then "these things" would be a incomplete statement~yet, Jesus explain how one is born again, and it's by the Spirit of God. You're playing with God's word to support a strange doctrine.

Let me say this~I do believe that when we are born of God, that we are created after the image of Jesus Christ in righteousness and true holiness; and were renewed in knowledge, that the first Adam lost. This creation is called the New, inward man that loves and delights in God, which is renewed day by day. IF this is some of what you have reference to, then we will not disagree totally with you. But, you cannot take John 3 and teach this, for it will not fit there.

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1st Peter 1:23~"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24  For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
You have taken this scripture and used it improperly.  Later I'll come back to this. 
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 14:29:01 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 07:58:59 »
Senior Member wrote:

I have  a question for you.  How could Jesus say these words:

Quote

John 3: 13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. "


How could Jesus' words be true (and we KNOW that they were) that He was BOTH speaking to Nicodemus, and he  was in heaven as well!  How could he be in equally two places at the same time? No other man could do this. And, if he was in two places at the same time, in what sense could it be said that he was?


Answer  Some churches interpret “which is in heaven” as “which is from heaven”.  But let us say that the former is correct, which I think it is.
 
Duet 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5  And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Comment: What does this imply?  Both versus do not state that there is only one God.  Although there is only one God, it states that God is one.   Man is also one, comprising of both an inner and outer being.   Spiritually he is made in the image of God.
 
Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Comment: Thus, I suspect that God has both and inner and outer self.  His outer self was expressed as an archangel and also as a man in the OT.  I feel this is common knowledge so I will not quote the scriptures that support this.   Also, man has not seen or heard the voice of the inner self of God (now our heavenly Father) at any time (John 6:46).  Thus God is one LORD comprising two parts.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Comment: Looking up the words in Strong’s concordance we find this scripture as:

John 1:14 And the Word became (G1096 one (married)) with flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only (one of a kind) full of grace and truth.

“One of a kind” https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3439&t=KJV

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Comment: Now Christ existed as the outer self in heaven with his now Father, and as a man of the seed of David here on earth. The Messiah grew in truth and in spirit.  God does not change.  The man Christ here on earth did die. But the part in heaven did not die.  For God does not die.
 
John 2:18 ¶ Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21  But he spake of the temple of his body. 22  When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Acts 2:23 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it

Comment: Both the Father and Christ as one God raised the man Christ from the grave.



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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 07:58:59 »

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 14:26:14 »
Duet 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:  And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is oneLord: Comment: What does this imply?  Both versus do not state that there is only one God.  Although there is only one God, it states that God is one.
Sorry for asking the question~ I think we should let this rest for another thread, and stay on the subject of this thread. At least my curiosity was answered. Thank you.   

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 15:00:03 »
Hi All,

Luke 11:8   Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God

Comment: Seed here is of the spiritual seed, of the soul of Christ.

1 Cor 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared for me.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, by which (another topic) all have sinned:

Comment: The body of Christ is the temple of God. Christians become part of that temple (1 Cor 3:16). This temple is not of the physical lineage of the first Adam, but of the second Adam.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren..

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

2 Cor 5: 6 6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Comment: After our souls are resurrected into heaven our bodies, will be changed at the First Resurrection.

1 Cor 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 15:57:30 »
Truthcomber  -  I'm not quite sure how the distinction of the "soul" of Christ is connected with "water" in this passage about being born again, but I believe you are on track with associating the "water" of John 3:5 with the word of God.  The "water" has nothing to do with either baptismal water or natural childbirth amniotic fluid.  Nicodemus as a leader in Israel should have been well aware of the symbolic nature of ritual washings under Mosaic Law to which Christ was making a connection. 

I would take your I Peter 1:23 reference about being born again by the incorruptible word of God, by which word the gospel is preached, and join that verse with two others.

Ephesians 5:26  "That He might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by theword...."  This is Christ's purifying work in order to cleanse sinners spiritually so that they become part of God's church and can then have fellowship with Him as His children.

John 15:3 (Interlinear)  "Already ye clean are, by reason of the word which I have spoken to you."  This was spoken to the 11 disciples after Judas had exited the Last Supper.

So, to be born "of water and spirit" is to be born of the word of God and the Spirit.  Scripture interprets itself.  The reason water is not mentioned in John 3:8 is because Christ was devoting that statement to describing only the part the Spirit plays in the regeneration process, not the part that the word of God plays in the process.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jul 10, 2016 - 17:21:37 »
Hi 3 Resurrections

At least we agree on the concepts, which is very important 
.


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 15:01:06 »
Nicodemus as a leader in Israel should have been well aware of thesymbolic nature of ritual washings under Mosaic Law
Without a doubt, he was; especially since it had to do with the outwardly worship of God. But, he was ignorant of many spiritual truths, which is so clear by this discourse between Christ and himself...namely, how one is born of the Spirit of God, and the necessity of it before one is a true child of God and able to discerned spiritual truths. He thought that just being born a Jew made one God's child (or, at least makes them special) as most of them thought~(Romans 9:6-8).....and as many Premill believe in our day.
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which Christ was making a connection
You're dead wrong. Since you are wrong on the doctrine of regeneration by the Spirit of God, then you must seek another interpretation of the "water" spoken of in verse five to support your errors. Context is everything in understanding any discourse, is it not. While I freely admit that the scriptures is its own interpreter; yet we do not disregard the certain laws that helps us to understand what we are seeking to understand. You were taught this many years ago, I believe, since you have said that you once worshiped with me, yet have kept your identity hidden from me, for whatever reason, so, I am sure you have been taught this. What Is Reading?  Reading is the action of perusing written material to recognize the marks of your language that indicate specific words and combinations of those words forming written communication. The full idea and import of the words and their combinations are dependent on interpretation, which is the action of determining the sense, or meaning, of a reading. What Is Understanding? To comprehend; to apprehend the meaning or import of; to grasp the idea of. This is done by staying with the context and the flow thereof. What Is Interpretation? To expound the meaning of (something abstruse or mysterious); to render (words, writings, an author, etc.) clear or explicit; to elucidate; to explain. Expound. To set forth, declare, state in detail. To explain, interpret. Interpretations must agree with their context~especially is this so in a discourse as is before us in John chapter three.  You were taught this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. we should never violate it; we should learn to spot it. A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author's meaning by the text. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent. Now let us look at what you said:
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Nicodemus as a leader in Israel should have been well aware of the symbolic nature of ritual washings under Mosaic Law to which Christ was making a connection
Really? Where do you get that from the context, and its flow thereof? It is not there, my friend, not there. You are too wise to think otherwise. You are forcing something there that is not even under consideration in this discourse. You are breaking every law of learning and interpreting one's conversation to know exactly what is under consideration and being said. You added:
Quote
I would take your I Peter 1:23 reference about being born again by the incorruptible word of God, by which word the gospel is preached, and join that verse with two others.
Friend, you said well that scriptures interprets scriptures, for they do indeed, specially such scripture as 1st Peter 1:23, which said:
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"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
I do agree fully that Peter is speaking of the written word of God, not Christ, as some teach, even as Truthcomber try to do so, but failed. Do you believe in the total depravity of man, or have you forsaken that as well? Do you believe that man is dead spiritually toward God, and that his will is in bondage to sin and the devil? Oh yes, you no longer believe that Satan is now, but has been already cast into the lake of fire at 70 A.D. Really it's impossible to reason with men like you, but for the sake of others, let me give you my understanding of 1st Peter 1:23. Based on many scriptures that teach that the natural man cannot receive spiritual truth, because he is spiritually discerned, and is at enmity against God~the sense in which I understand 1st Peter 1:23 is this: We are born again by the testimony, or witness of God, which comes from his word. What would we know of God, apart from his witness in his word? Not one thing. I would not know one thing concerning God, His Spirit, or His Son, apart from God's witness to us. This IS how we know how we are born again, through the written word of God. God could have very easily put trees in this world with a new message on it every day for us, but he chose to give to us his word to communicate to us.
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1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
Again:
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1st John 5:9-11~"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
We are born again, not by the MEANS OF the word of God, but by the testimony of, or, the witness of the word of God! It is the only means by which we have any spiritual knowledge of any spiritual truth! And that witness reveals to me that the new birth is a birth of the Spirit of God...period!
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The reason water is not mentioned in John 3:8 is because Christ was devoting that statement to describing only the part the Spirit plays in the regeneration process, not the part that the word of God plays in the process.
Wrong sir, the ONLY reason why water is omitted is that the new birth, or being born again is by the Spirit of God ALONE. You are assuming something that you cannot prove. What else can you say, but what you said. If water meant anything else, other than our natural birth (a question that Nicodemus asked, and was answered by Christ with these words: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.) than it would have been repeated in verse 8. That which is born of the flesh IS FLESH, which means that the written word of God is NO MEANS used in the new birth! It takes the power of Almighty to resurrect/quicken dead sinners to life.  Enough said for now. 




   
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 04:29:31 by RB »

Offline scalpelsurgeon

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 16:14:00 »
Scalpelsurgeon wrote:


"With every new doctrine comes a bent on the scriptures associated with that doctrine.

What you have said, Truthcomber, is new to me.

I've heard it said, if it's new, it ain't true, and if it's true, it ain't new!"


Answer: Your discourse above is simply not true.  Daniel said that the words of the Almighty will be open to new understanding at the end of this age.

Daniel 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

More so than the new understanding was opened to the apostles during Christ’s time.

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.  17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I 'm not saying I know everything, and neither do you.  For your approach seems traditional and narrow.


You may be right about new understanding being opened up near the end of days, nevertheless anything new ought to be looked at with suspicion until that time that it is established as a biblical doctrine.

There is something to be said for traditional and narrow...

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 16:22:38 by scalpelsurgeon »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 17:44:29 »
RB  -  Some of your disagreement expressed may be due to our speaking past each other on a few points. Certainly I do not refute the role of the Spirit in the new birth.  But I think there is a human tendency that attempts to classify and separate into categories some things that can't be divided.  I speak of the united role that Christ and the Spirit play in the new birth. 

John 3:5 is just another instance of the Trinity at work.  Look at II Cor. 3:17.  It mentions the veil done away in Christ, followed by saying, "Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."  We can't separate the Lord from the Spirit in the new birth process.  They are ONE, and act in unison.

Truthcomber's reference to Rev. 19:9 does apply when it calls the Lamb's name "The Word of God".   Paired with Eph. 5:26 where the Word is equated with the "washing of water", it makes total sense for Christ to be describing the new birth process as performed through "water" (as Christ, the Word of God) and the Spirit's power combined.

If the word "water" in question refers solely to that of any natural childbirth, I'm afraid you'll not find either Adam or Eve in heaven, since neither of them went through this process.  It doesn't make sense for Christ to stipulate "Except ye be born of water..." (if He meant a regular childbirth), since there's not a person alive who ever had the option of dispensing with this process of coming into the world bathed in amniotic fluid.  Nobody has a choice about this.  It's not as if anyone can pick and choose whether or not to participate in their own physical birth.

As for the I Peter 1:23 reference, the "corruptible seed" was alluding to Peter's audience being born of natural, ethnic Jewish descent.  Being born of "incorruptible  Seed" meant Christ, the Word of God, who lives and abides forever.  "No man comes to the Father but by Him."  Does this negate the role of the Spirit in the new birth?  NOT AT ALL, since "the Lord IS that Spirit".  They are one.

There is another reference that unites the roles of the Spirit and the Word in the new birth, with which I know you are well-acquainted.  John 6:63 says, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh  profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY are SPIRIT and they are life."  This is why Christ can say to the disciples that they were already clean by the word that He had spoken unto them.  The Spirit had taken the word  spoken unto them, applied it to ears that Christ had opened, and enabled them to hearken and receive the new birth. 

So I maintain that being "born of water and the Spirit" means being born of the Word of God and the Spirit - not baptism, and not natural childbirth.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 17:49:31 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline mclees8

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 18:18:31 »
“Born of the water” is not speaking here of water baptism but of being born of the soul of Christ.
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean by water being the soul of Christ, thereby being born of and by that soul of Christ. Regardless, the context drives our understanding. If one carefully follows the context, then they should have no trouble understanding the purpose as to why Jesus mentioned water in John 3:5. If poor Nicodemus' understanding was not so simple and weak, then Jesus would have never had use water along with being born of the Spirit of God. Remember it was Nicodemus who ask the question:
Quote
John 3:4~:Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Our Lord Jesus immediately came back and explain carefully the new birth, listen to our Lord:
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John 3:5~"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
He said......"Except a man be born of water" ONCE; and of the Spirit....which is being born again; who alone is the only active agent working when one is born again! Jesus only used water because of the question asked by Nicodemus, or else, he would have never used water in the same breath with being born of the Spirit. Need proof? I have it in verse eight:
Quote
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus omitted water when describing, or explaining the new birth....WHY? Simple..... water in verse five is referring to the our first birth into this world...the sack of water breaks, and one is then born into this world. But, before one is able to see and understand, that person MUST BE BORN AGAIN just as Jesus said to Nicodemus who came to him confessing that he was a true prophet of God, for no man could have done the miracles that Jesus had done, and not be sent from God.......was Nicodemus' child like confession.  Jesus was telling Nicodemus, that if he truly believe what he is saying, then he could only do so, by the fact that he had first been born of the Spirit of God.  So many miss these wonderful truths hidden in John 3.

I have  a question for you.  How could Jesus say these words:
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John 3: 13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. "
How could Jesus' words be true (and we KNOW that they were) that He was BOTH speaking to Nicodemus, and he was in heaven as well! How could he be in equally two places at the same time? No other man could do this. And, if he was in two places at the same time, in what sense could it be said that he was?

RB what you said about must be born of water meaning the water of the womb doesn't seem to compute. When Jesus said you must be born again of water could not refer to the water of the womb. Every living being is born of the water of the womb.    ::pondering::

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 22:40:33 »
Scaplelsurgeon wrote

i
There is something to be said for traditional and narrow...

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14.


Comment: I am not disputing your quote.  This is the way we should live, according to scripture. But I don't accept it as the way we should think.  One cannot explore and examine in a strait jacket.  If one knows all the truth, then apply this narrow way to your thinking, because one is then error free. But no one has all the truth.  We are always learning.


2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 11, 2016 - 23:05:31 »
Quote; mclees8:

"RB what you said about must be born of water meaning the water of the womb doesn't seem to compute. When Jesus said you must be born again of water could not refer to the water of the womb. Every living being is born of the water of the womb.
    ::pondering::"

You added the word "again". Also, He said man or one in some translations, referring to a human being.

John 3:5~
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 04:53:03 »
RB what you said about must be born of water meaning the water of the womb doesn't seem to compute. When Jesus said you must be born again of water could not refer to the water of the womb. Every living being is born of the water of the womb.    ::pondering::
Greetings mclees8~Let us slow down and carefully dialogue back and forth; for you have (most likely innocently) inserted something that I did not say. This is "how" people get confused when  reading, or listening to a debate.  Please follow me carefully. You said: 
Quote
RB what you said about must be born of water meaning the water of the womb doesn't seem to compute
and you added:
Quote
When Jesus said you must be born again of water could not refer to the water of the womb
Friend, neither I or Jesus said that you must be born of water! Listen carefully please:
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John 3:5~"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I did not say that one must be born of water in order to be born again! Jesus ONLY mentioned water to answered Nicodemus' question in verse four, where Nicodemus asked Jesus:
Quote
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
and to prove that Jesus was not saying that one had to be born of water to be born again, he added these words in verse six:
Quote
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Ask yourself this question: "Why" did Jesus say those very word right after verse 5? Because that which is born of the flesh (water) IS FLESH! It would never change EVEN IF one could re-enter into his mother's womb and be born! Actually, a child could died IN his mother womb at the point of delivery and still be a child of God.  John the Baptist was regenerated IN his mother's womb before he ever saw the day of light in this world. As I have already said~Jesus would never would have mentioned water if Nicodemus in his ignorance had not mention re-entering back into his mother's womb. We are slaves to the context of the text at hand, and until we are, then expect people leaving this discourse holding on to error, even good men!
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 04:58:04 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 06:14:27 »
RB wrote:
He said......"Except a man be born of water" ONCE; and of the Spirit....which is being born again; who alone is the only active agent working when one is born again! Jesus only used water because of the question asked by Nicodemus, or else, he would have never used water in the same breath with being born of the Spirit. Need proof? I have it in verse eight:

Comment
: So let’s take a closer look at John 3 in light of other scriptures. I had written on this thread of why Christians should be born of the holy spirit and of Christ.  Now if you agree on this, why would Christ not mention being born of him in John 3?  Isn’t that more important than our first birth of the flesh?  When we are baptized, it is symbolic of being immersed in his death.  We die to our old man.

Strong’s Interlinear Bible
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm

John 3:5 Answered Jesus Truly truly  I say to  you if not anyone ( already in existence) be (future tense) born of water  and of Spirit not he is able to enter into the kingdom of God.  (My emphasis in the parenthesis)

Comment:  Christ is telling Nicodemus that no one can enter the kingdom of God without be baptised.  You cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you repent and be baptized (acts 2:38) Baptism is symbolic of the reality of accepting the Lord’s sacrifice when we repent.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (refers to vs 4); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (refers to all of vs 5).

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit (G4151) of Christ, he is none of his. 10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

John 3:8 The wind (G4151) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (G4151). 

Comment: As we can see, the soul or spirit (G4151) of Christ is the same word for holy spirit (G4151).  It seems reasonable to me that John 3:8 is referring to both the holy spirit and Christ’s soul in vs 6

Comment: My summary in light of the scriptures: In Verse 4, Nicodemus thinks that born again means of the flesh. Then Christ corrects him on this, and mentioned two births (of the humanity of Christ (water) and the holy spirit). Why would Christ correct him but saying that Nicodemus must be born of water (human birth).  Nicodemus knew this already?  Nicodemus was probably alive when Christ was crucified and had risen from the dead. At this point it is necessary to go through Christ first
.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. How is one going to be born again without Christ?  “Water” is a coded message (Matt 13:10-13).  It doesn’t make sense for Christ to tell Nicodemus that he need be born only of the holy spirit.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #21 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 06:29:10 »
Hi All,

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Comment:  We sin daily; therefore we apply the sacrifice of Christ daily in our lives. As we put on Christ, we grow in his spirit (soul) and die to our spirit (soul).  At the same time we grow in the holy spirit in our higher mind.

1 John 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Comment: So how do you reconcile 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:9?  There are two births, one in our fleshly mind (Christ) and one in our higher mind. We sin daily in the flesh, but never in our higher mind unless we quench the holy spirit.

Rom 7:23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?... 24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (flesh) 25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Gal 5:23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Comment: As long as we sin, we are under the law of sin and death.  And we sin daily. We are not judged by the same law when we are resurrected and do not sin.


Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 06:45:38 »
God does not change, but Christ did.
Again you said:
Quote
Comment: So how do you reconcile 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:9?  There are two births, one in our fleshly mind (Christ) and one in our higher mind. We sin daily in the flesh, but never in our higher mind unless we quench the holy spirit.
What I highlighted in red, could you please elaborate more. RB

Offline mclees8

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #23 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 11:35:12 »
RB said
Jesus omitted water when describing, or explaining the new birth....WHY? Simple..... water in verse five is referring to the our first birth into this world...the sack of water breaks, and one is then born into this world.


I am not claiming to be theological wiz, but something bothers me about water referring to the first birth. Jesus said unless you be born again you  cannot see the kingdom of heaven. The natural man or the fleshly man is bound by the physical world. He stumbles at spiritual things because he cannot understand spiritual truth and a kingdom that is invisible. There for if you are not born again of spiritual understanding you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God
Nicodemus being carnal couldn't receive what Jesus said so he states once again

John 3:5~
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I know there are two different takes about the water. I want to note the end of the verse he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  who cant enter. The unregenerate person of the flesh. The fleshly man cannot enter God's kingdom. The person that is born from the womb is under sin. The water from the The flesh will not enter in.

womb does not make one able to enter the kingdom. Jesus said you must be born of "water and of the spirit". to enter the kingdom. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.





« Last Edit: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 17:37:28 by mclees8 »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #24 on: Tue Jul 12, 2016 - 23:59:56 »
With every new doctrine comes a bent on the scriptures associated with that doctrine.

What you have said, Truthcomber, is new to me.

I've heard it said, if it's new, it ain't true, and if it's true, it ain't new!

Traditionally John 3:3, when it speaks of water, is referring to 1) natural birth (the water that breaks before a child comes out of the womb), 2) the water of the word, 3) the water refers to the Holy Ghost, in which the Greek word for and in this verse,  kai,  would be translated even, or 4) it is referring to the waters of baptism in Jesus' name, which is substantiated by Acts 2:38-39, Colossians 2:11-12, Romans 6:1-7, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 4:10,12, Ezekiel 36:25-27, Acts 22:16, and more!


I agree to a certain point, but the "traditional" take on "born of water" didn't appear in ancient writings until after the Reformation, particularly in Lutheran and calvinist writings - because water baptism was labeled as a work.

However, "born of water," after an extensive study on the topic, does refer to water baptism, particularly since no one can enter into the Kingdom of God unless they are in Christ, and water baptism is the God-ordained means of entering the New Covenant (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27), which is Christ. We also see this played out in Acts in the account of Apollos at the end of chapter 18, and the account of Paul's meeting with the 12 believers in the opening of chapter 19.

"Born of water" does not mean physical birth according to the Scriptures, and Jesus - IF it did mean physical birth - must have thought Nicodemus was a complete idiot if He had to tell him that he couldn't be born spiritually if he wasn't first born physically...(just food for thought, there).


Blessings!


Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 13, 2016 - 06:25:43 »
"Born of water" does not mean physical birth according to the Scriptures, and Jesus - IF it did mean physical birth - must have thought Nicodemus was a complete idiot if He had to tell him that he couldn't be born spiritually if he wasn't first born physically...(just food for thought, there).
It was NOT Jesus that brought up re-entering the womb to be born again, but Nicodemus. SM, it is you, that professes to know and understand biblical hermeneutical rules of interpreting the scriptures~so, why do not you use those rules in John chapter three; it would save you from embarrassment, if you would practice what you preach. Again, Jesus would have never mention water, if poor Nicodemus had not said what he did, when he said these words:
Quote
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
I have heard you say this: The Greek does not say "born again" but born from above...but we know that Jesus used the word "born AGAIN" based upon Nicodemus' words ....the SECOND TIME! Sir, context is indeed everything in interpreting what is before us~why do you not practice what you preach to others? Again, it would save you from embarrassment. 
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 13, 2016 - 06:29:04 by RB »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 13, 2016 - 10:39:55 »
You argue for nothing. Does it even matter. Every living  being saved or not was born in water. Jesus mentioned it only once.  The rest of the discourse He said born of the again of the spirit .   

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jul 13, 2016 - 11:05:47 »
The rest of the discourse He said born of the again of the spirit .
Agreed...that's my WHOLE point! The new birth is one by the Spirit of God, apart from the will of man, or, the flesh. Have you carefully followed this post?

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #28 on: Wed Jul 13, 2016 - 11:35:11 »
Red said...

Quote
"Born of water" does not mean physical birth according to the Scriptures, and Jesus - IF it did mean physical birth - must have thought Nicodemus was a complete idiot if He had to tell him that he couldn't be born spiritually if he wasn't first born physically...(just food for thought, there).


It was NOT Jesus that brought up re-entering the womb to be born again, but Nicodemus. SM, it is you, that professes to know and understand biblical hermeneutical rules of interpreting the scriptures~so, why do not you use those rules in John chapter three; it would save you from embarrassment, if you would practice what you preach.


Red, since you didn't use any kind of hermeneutic to come to your false and rediculous conclusion, you telling me that I didn't use them is the embarrassing clause here, on your part, not mine. I did use them, if you read and understood even what I said, but you didn't...because you can't.

Fact #1: God has chosen water baptism as the ritual means of entrance into the New Covenant, replacing circumcision that was the ritual means of entrance into the Old Covenant. But you don't understand that...

Fact #2:  The kingdom of God is a covenant kingdom, but you don't understand that either...

Fact #3:  Christ is the living embodiment of the New Covenant (Isa. 42:6; 49:8), but you don't understand that either...

Fact #4:  Because Christ is the living New Covenant, no man can come to the Father (ie: enter into the kingdom of God) except through Christ, you barely profess to understand that point, but only when you use it to your assumed advantage.

Fact #5:  The Scriptures plainly and clearly tell us that one enters into Christ through water baptism (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27) which is evidenced and codified all throughout the book of Acts and the gospels.

Conclusion:  When Jesus used the words "born of water" He was using a figure of speech called Allegory – use of symbolism to illustrate truth or a moral; a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another. You failed to use the most basic principle of them all, Red...the Scripture interprets Scripture principle, which you often do.

Quote
Again, Jesus would have never mention water, if poor Nicodemus had not said what he did, when he said these words:

 
Quote
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"


REALLY??!!!! You have the mind of Christ, Red!!! YOU know what He would have said and what He would not have said!!! Wow! Why are you here...since you have that precious gifting, you need to be out on the road travelling to every church in the country giving them the benefit of such a thing...  rofl

Quote
I have heard you say this: The Greek does not say "born again" but born from above...but we know that Jesus used the word "born AGAIN" based upon Nicodemus' words ....the SECOND TIME!


Your ignorance of the Scriptures befuddles you again, Red. You are at least correct in that I have stated in the past that the words Jesus used, correctly translated, means "born from above," but you are incorrect that Jesus said "born again" at ANY TIME in this conversation. The term "born again" does not enter the gospel message ANYWHERE until it was used in I Peter in 1:3 and 1:23...and only in the passive tense in the MT (if I am not confused on that point), because the other texts do not have it in the passive, which makes it "born from above." Therefore, the whole term "born again" is highly doubted and unstable, being an aberration of some texts used for translation.

Again, if you cared at all to educate yourself on such things, you wouldn't come here and embarrass yourself so badly.

Quote
Sir, context is indeed everything in interpreting what is before us~why do you not practice what you preach to others? Again, it would save you from embarrassment.

Yes...speaking to you, Red, is like arguing with a teenager who thinks he knows everything, when he really doesn't have enough life experience to know anything, not even how to drive. I have practiced it, and you shame yourself by not following the Spirit's call to you...

II Tim. 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Since you fail in following this passage, even out of your own KJV, you are the only one here that is embarrassing himself.





Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #29 on: Thu Jul 14, 2016 - 06:22:17 »
Hi All,
RB wrote:

Quote from: Truthcomber on July 10, 2016, 05:22:23 AM
God does not change, but Christ did.
Again you said:
Quote
Comment: So how do you reconcile 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:9?  There are two births, one in our fleshly mind (Christ) and one in our higher mind. We sin daily in the flesh, but never in our higher mind unless we quench the holy spirit.
What I highlighted in red, could you please elaborate more. RB



As mentioned before in this thread:
I believe man is made in the image of God.
That man has an inner and outer self—just like God does. God has always been one person (Mark 12:29)
That God is spirit and invisible (1 Tim 1:17, John 4:24)
God expressed himself in the OT as Theophanies through his outer being (1 Cor 10:4)


Now to proceed further:
 
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me (as the Messiah) with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee (as the Messiah) before the world was…

Comment: Note that the lamb was both considered slain and then glorified before the time he existed on earth.  God sees these as if they were eternal—for he changes not.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Comment: Note that the Lord (man) in heaven is the same Lord here on earth.   

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.*** 11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Jer.23:5-6: " Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The word or Christ (Rev .19:3, 1 kings 12:22 )

Comment: Note that the Lord (the Word) is declaring prophecies about himself the third person (John 3:13). 

Luke 1:29 And when Afflict she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30  And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.

Isa 11:1-2 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2  And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3  And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.‡§ 6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.** 7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.††‡‡ 9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.§§ 
 
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with
wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered .

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering (patience)of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Comment Christ gave us an example we should follow (John 10:27, Gal 5:22)

Rom 1 :1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Comment: Christ was both the son of man and the son of God. He was the son of God like we are sons of God. He  (1 John 3:1)

Now he is the son of God (and man) as he always was declared to be (Matt 22:41-46)

Mission accomplished.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jul 16, 2016 - 16:16:25 »
Hi All,

Summary

The Almighty is Spirit.  He is dichotomy of a higher self and an expression (Word); he is one being. This expression revealed himself in dreams and Theophanies such as being an archangel or man to the prophets in the OT (Heb 1:1-3)

 Acts 17:24-25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

2 Peter 5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Comment: This is spiritual temple of the church. Our Lord as the corner stone.
 
Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Comment: Our heavenly father’s spiritual glory is expressed through his temple via his outer self.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Comment:  Some, based on this scripture subscribe our heavenly father as the providing his spiritual DNA—impossible.  The bible clearly states that our heavenly father was Christ’s father through the holy spirit in Christ’s inner man, just like he is our heavenly father in our higher self.  But Rom 1:3 and Acts 2:30 states that it is through the physical seed of David that the Messiah’s father would be. Joseph is of the lineage of Jehoiachin (Matt 1:12) and  a curse was placed on him that no descendant of his could be the Messiah. So even if Christ was his adopted son, Christ could not be the messiah through his lineage because of this.  And our Lord was not adopted. Also, only the blood line is allowed, not adoption.  So the eliminate the Joseph lineage.  Also, Christ’s kingship lineage cannot come his matriarchic side to qualify to be the Messiah, so eliminate Christ qualifying to be the Messiah through his mother.  And king Solomon’s lineage is disqualified because he did not obey God.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+11&version=CEV

Ezekiel’s temple will never be built. The below link is a good article on this. Christians comprise
e the temple with Christ as the chief cornerstone.

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/10/ezekiels-temple-will-never-be-built-mike-clinton-2454162.html

1 Cor 13:7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail

Comment: So who then is Christ physically descended from?  There is no other choice but that Christ was supernaturally and directly descended from King David (Luke 1:30-35 above).  We can in this century impregnate woman through artificial insemination.  So could Mary be provided with King David’s genes supernaturally by the Almighty?  The answer is yes

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #31 on: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 05:52:39 »
So could Mary be provided with King David’s genes supernaturally by the Almighty?  The answer is yes
Before I comment I want to travel back and read your other post first. But your statement here has denied and rejected Jesus being the Son of God. Jesus was David's son according to his flesh; but he also was the Son of God by the power of the Highest over shadowing Mary and allowing Jesus to be conceived and to be a complex person; fully man through Mary; (made in the likeness of sinful flesh) fully God by the Word (God) becoming flesh in the person of His Son. It is a great mystery that cannot be explained, only received by faith.  Jesus as the Son of man, had the likeness of sinful flesh, but FREE OF DAVID'S SINFUL FLESH~why? Jesus was conceived by the power of the Highest. If you understood that, then you would be God, and would not need him as your God! Allow me time to read and answer another point which you made:
Quote
Comment: Christ was both the son of man and the son of God. He was the son of God like we are sons of God. He  (1 John 3:1).
Sir, that's blasphemy! Jesus was the Son of God by conception, I am a son of God by spiritual quickening! A BIG difference. I was NOT born free of sin, but born a sinner! Jesus was born free of a sinful flesh, and NEVER sin. More later.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 05:54:53 by RB »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 07:38:50 »
Mission accomplished.
Not so fast my friend, not so fast. I hardly believe you truly answered my question. You said:
Quote
God does not change, but Christ did.
and added:
Quote
Comment: So how do you reconcile 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:9?  There are two births, one in our fleshly mind (Christ) and one in our higher mind. We sin daily in the flesh, but never in our higher mind unless we quench the holy spirit.
  I asked you:
Quote
What I highlighted in red, could you please elaborate more. RB
This post is your answered?? Let us consider what you have posted.
Quote
As mentioned before in this thread: I believe man is made in the image of God. That man has an inner and outer self—just like God does. God has always been one person (Mark 12:29)
This is not what the scriptures considers to the image of God to be, in which we were created. Adam was created in God's image, and that image consist of knowledge, understanding and holiness~I know this based upon what sinners are recreated in when they are born again of God. Listen to Paul:
Quote
Ephesians 4:23,24~"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Again Paul said:
Quote
Colossians 3:10~And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Based upon these two scriptures I understand the image of God that Adam lost when he sinned. He lost TRUE knowledge and understanding, and the ability to live in holiness and righteousness...actually he became an enemy to righteousness, and mocks and fights against it with all his might. He became a lover of darkness and the servant thereof.
Quote
God has always been one person (Mark 12:29)
That God is spirit and invisible (1 Tim 1:17, John 4:24)
Agreed.
Quote
God expressed himself in the OT as Theophanies through his outer being
Again God is an Eternal Spirit that dwells in eternity by Himself, with no inner, or outward being. A Spirit has neither. God did indeed speak through different means in the OT, but ALWAYS through angels in whom he created for one of his purposes. Much more could be said, but enough for now.
Quote
Note that the lamb was both considered slain and then glorified before the time he existed on earth.
Agreed
Quote
God sees these as if they were eternal—for he changes not.
A better way of saying this would be: God, who is eternal both ways, purposed and plan every detail from the beginning, and since God is Omnipotent, and no one can hinder him from doing as he pleases~then yes, Jesus' work of redemption was a done deal, even before the world begun. All this earth is, is a stage carrying out God's ordained purposes, which he purposed in himself.  We're elect according the foreknowledge of God  ~meaning, God KNEW what he would do. He alone can declared the end FROM the beginning, with a perfect peace of knowing that all shall come to passed JUST AS HE ORDAINED it to be!
Quote
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Comment: Note that the Lord (man) in heaven is the same Lord here on earth.   
No, you have it backward. The Son of man of earth, was ONE with his Father which was in the heaven dwelling in eternity. The Word (God who is a Spirit) joined Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus Christ, and walked among men; preached unto them' was seen of angels for the FIRST time; and was received up into the heaven. All that John 3:13 is saying to us is this: Jesus was God in his Eternal Divinty~he was both man and God. God, who is a Spirit, has EVER REMAIN SO, and WILL EVER REMAIN SO. Jesus was both man and God, and being so, he could be both on earth and in heaven AT THE SAME TIME.
Quote
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.*** 11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Jer.23:5-6: " Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. The word or Christ (Rev .19:3, 1 kings 12:22 ) Comment: Note that the Lord (the Word) is declaring prophecies about himself the third person (John 3:13). 
Let me come back to this later.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 15:50:25 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #33 on: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 08:12:36 »

So could Mary be provided with King David’s genes supernaturally by the Almighty?  The answer is yes


Before I comment I want to travel back and read your other post first. But your statement here has denied and rejected Jesus being the Son of God. Jesus was David's son according to his flesh; but he also was the Son of God by the power of the Highest over shadowing Mary and allowing Jesus to be conceived and to be a complex person; fully man through Mary; (made in the likeness of sinful flesh) fully God by the Word (God) becoming flesh in the person of His Son. It is a great mystery that cannot be explained, only received by faith.  Jesus as the Son of man, had the likeness of sinful flesh, but FREE OF DAVID'S SINFUL FLESH~why? Jesus was conceived by the power of the Highest. If you understood that, then you would be God, and would not need him as your God! Allow me time to read and answer another point which you made:

Quote

Comment: Christ was both the son of man and the son of God. He was the son of God like we are sons of God. He  (1 John 3:1).


Sir, that's blasphemy! Jesus was the Son of God by conception, I am a son of God by spiritual quickening! A BIG difference. I was NOT born free of sin, but born a sinner! Jesus was born free of a sinful flesh, and NEVER sin. More later.


Let me quote the relevant scriptures:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he (was) both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Comment: Very plain to read; Christ was born of the seed of David according to the flesh.
 
Interlinear Bible for Acts 2:29 “Was, not is”
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-29.htm

Different translations:
http://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm


John 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Comment: Christ was born a man without sin in his flesh.  That was the difference.  He was called the second Adam in that as the first Adam who was born without sin failed, the second one would not.

The Immaculate Conception is a catholic concept for one-- It stems from mystery Babylon.
 





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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #34 on: Sun Jul 17, 2016 - 08:29:21 »

I think I messed up my last post.  I am still learning how to quote on this forum. 

So here is the revision in response to RB:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he (was) both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Comment: Very plain to read; Christ was born of the seed of David according to the flesh.
 
Interlinear Bible for Acts 2:29 “Was, not is”
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-29.htm

Different translations:
http://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm

John 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Comment: Christ was born a man without sin in his flesh.  That was the difference.  He was called the second Adam in that as the first Adam who was born without sin failed, the second one would not.

The Immaculate Conception is a catholic concept for one-- It stems from mystery Babylon.