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Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #455 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 15:38:22 »
He doesn't know you to write in a BOOK until Jesus takes your cconfession to the Father.
I don't think you are right about that.  God knows everything. He knows the end from the beginning.  At least that is what He says (Isa 42:21-23;44:7-8; 46:9-10).

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #455 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 15:38:22 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #456 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 16:04:39 »
Remember the Lord, Lord sayers who claimed to be God's main men?  God said "I never knew you."  That may mean to know a person or own a person as a child.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #456 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 16:04:39 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #457 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 17:15:32 »
 ??? ??? ???

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #457 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 17:15:32 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #458 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 18:10:29 »
For all of the progressives this also defines the "Prophesying with instruments" of Miriam and the Levites.
A prophet predicts the future and we know their names
"Prophesying" could include interpreting the Word by inspiration.
Prophesying with instruments speaks of the sham prophesiers.  Miriam as a defacto princess would be a prophetess of Hathor: her sistrum proves it as she led the women "to escape."  In Egypt the prophesiers were PRIMARY PARASITES or the chief speakers living off the poor.

Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
          but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #458 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 18:10:29 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Michael2012

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #459 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 21:46:02 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 12:54:48
Quote
Do you agree with them?

And Sir, what is your answer to the question:

"I have this question for you then, if it was because God knows the future, that these names of the saved were written in the Lamb's Book of Life even from before the world began, would you say that none of these names will be blotted out?"
It is not because God knows the future.  That is just how it happened that He could.  Those names were written in because they were saved.

You said "He knew from before the world began who would be saved and who would not.  That is a part of what foreknowledge is all about." Is that different from God knowing the future, what will happen in the future? Your statement does not mean to say that it is not just that God could, but that He knew.

You said "Those names were written in because they were saved.". Now we have established that they were written from before the world began. So, you still haven't answered the question, "would you say that none of these names will be blotted out?"

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #459 on: Sun Dec 10, 2017 - 21:46:02 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #460 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 04:51:24 »
It is not because God knows the future.  That is just how it happened that He could.  Those names were written in because they were saved.


You said "He knew from before the world began who would be saved and who would not.  That is a part of what foreknowledge is all about." Is that different from God knowing the future, what will happen in the future? Your statement does not mean to say that it is not just that God could, but that He knew.

You said "Those names were written in because they were saved.". Now we have established that they were written from before the world began. So, you still haven't answered the question, "would you say that none of these names will be blotted out?"
Why would I say that?

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #460 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 04:51:24 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #461 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 11:54:57 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 21:46:02
Quote
You said "He knew from before the world began who would be saved and who would not.  That is a part of what foreknowledge is all about." Is that different from God knowing the future, what will happen in the future? Your statement does not mean to say that it is not just that God could, but that He knew.

You said "Those names were written in because they were saved.". Now we have established that they were written from before the world began. So, you still haven't answered the question, "would you say that none of these names will be blotted out?"
Why would I say that?

You would not say that then. But if one's name is blotted out, then that would be a problem with the matter of foreknowledge. If there be some whose names will be blotted out from the Lamb's book of Life, if at all that were possible, then that would rule out and refute the position that the writing of the names was based on the foreknowledge of God.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #462 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 12:51:22 »
Quote
You would not say that then. But if one's name is blotted out, then that would be a problem with the matter of foreknowledge. If there be some whose names will be blotted out from the Lamb's book of Life, if at all that were possible, then that would rule out and refute the position that the writing of the names was based on the foreknowledge of God.

GRAMMARIAN PLEASE?

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
        whose names are not written in the book of life
            \ of the Lamb SLAIN
                       \ from the foundation of the world.

The NAMES were not written in the BOOK OF THE LAMB before HE WAS SLAIN in fulfilment of God's Purpose]
After the LAMB WAS SLAIN the value of His shed blood BECAME available.
Those who have HONORED God and His Son by being OBEDIENT and are baptized are ADDED to the invisible-inauudible kingdom.
Jesus of Nazareth as Spirit picked Paul and he was not picked until he was picked.
Paul would NOT be taught all truth IF He had disobeyed the command:

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
        and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Those who were baptized were ADDED to the Church by Christ and their Spirits written in heaven.  People have no power or quality MEET until God sent Jesus to MAKE US MEET by declaring that no person or swine are ceremonially NOT MEET.

Col. 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father,
       which hath MADE US MEET to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
        and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood,
       even the forgiveness of sins:

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,
        and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you;
        but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
        that thou hast HID these things from the WISE and prudent,
        and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

The WISE are SOPHISTS meaning speaking for HIRE, playing instruments especially IN A SACRED PLACE.

NOTICE: THE LAMB WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
THE NAMES OF THE DISCIPLES WAS NOT WRITTEN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. There is no evidence that God KNEW BEFORE the Names of the Disciples: He foreknew or KNEW BEFORE the tiny Remnant who had not bowed to Baal.  His PRE Goal was that they be conformed to the image of Christ.

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #463 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 15:29:37 »
NOTICE: THE LAMB WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
That makes no sense whatsoever.  The Lamb was slain in about 30-33 AD.  Obviously the KJV which you are reading from is a  mistranslation.

ASV: Rev 13:8  And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.


Quote
There is no evidence that God KNEW BEFORE the Names of the Disciples
He is God.  He is omniscient.  He knows everything --  past present and future  --  everything.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #463 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 15:29:37 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #464 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 16:53:14 »
Quote
That makes no sense whatsoever.  The Lamb was slain in about 30-33 AD.  Obviously the KJV which you are reading from is a  mistranslation.

ASV: Rev 13:8  And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

That's true but the red herring is that the foundation of the world means in BC4004 in which case people have tried to explain this verse by saying that Jesus was SLAIN in prophecy.  Isaiah 48 notes that prophecies are not fulfilled then to prevent salesmen to use it for their own profit.

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
        and between thy seed and her seed;
        it shall bruise thy head,
        and thou shalt bruise his heel

However, John is not speaking of the physical world but a spiritual world: foundation is used of casting down seed and world is the kingdom of Christ being terrorized by the Kosmos, Ecumenical or the kingdom of the Devil.

Jesus didn't create the Kosmos: the Elohim cast down the heavens and earth beginning with the Sumerians and Babylonians whom Moses used to terrorize the Hebrews who engaged in Instrumental and Sexual Play at Mount Sinai (Romans 1)

Surprise to the Progressives who are consumed with building towers of power Jesus warned:

Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Rev. 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red:
        and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
        and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

g3163.  mache, makh´-ay; from 3164; a battle, i.e. (figuratively) controversy: — fighting, strive, striving.

2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
        by the same WORD are kept in store,
        reserved unto FIRE against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

In Isaiah 30 God fights His enemies and drives them into hell with wind, string and percussion instruments.

More later..[/size]


Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #465 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 17:26:26 »
That's true but the red herring is that the foundation of the world means in BC4004 in which case people have tried to explain this verse by saying that Jesus was SLAIN in prophecy.  Isaiah 48 notes that prophecies are not fulfilled then to prevent salesmen to use it for their own profit.

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
        and between thy seed and her seed;
        it shall bruise thy head,
        and thou shalt bruise his heel

However, John is not speaking of the physical world but a spiritual world: foundation is used of casting down seed and world is the kingdom of Christ being terrorized by the Kosmos, Ecumenical or the kingdom of the Devil.

Jesus didn't create the Kosmos: the Elohim cast down the heavens and earth beginning with the Sumerians and Babylonians whom Moses used to terrorize the Hebrews who engaged in Instrumental and Sexual Play at Mount Sinai (Romans 1)

Surprise to the Progressives who are consumed with building towers of power Jesus warned:

Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Rev. 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red:
        and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
        and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

g3163.  mache, makh´-ay; from 3164; a battle, i.e. (figuratively) controversy: — fighting, strive, striving.

2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pet. 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
        by the same WORD are kept in store,
        reserved unto FIRE against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

In Isaiah 30 God fights His enemies and drives them into hell with wind, string and percussion instruments.

More later..[/size]

The Elohim?  Are you a Raelian?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #466 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 18:09:59 »
I had to look it up to decide whether I am or am not.
In the beginning the ELOHIM made a total mess: I believe Moses is speaking of the Sumerians who can fit the 4004 date.
Jehovah does not show up until Genesis 2:4 where the LORD [yhwh] as the only real God [Elohim] so I don't try to make theology out of what is probably Moses writing an iNVERTED version of the Sumerians and others to prove that the Logd-God didn't make mankind to be machines to do the work of lazy gods.

Jehovah DID NOT create the void and empty state:

Is. 45:18 For thus saith the LORD
        that created the heavens;
        God himself that formed the earth
        and made it;
        he hath established it,
        he created it not in vain,
        he formed it to be inhabited: [squeezed itinto shape)
        I am the LORD; and there is NONE else.

Is. 45:19 I have not spoken in secret,
        in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob,
        Seek ye me in vain: (tohu)
        I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
        who hath declared this from ancient time?
        who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?
        and there is no God else beside me;
        a just God and a Saviour;  (Yasha)
        there is none beside me.


Tohu and Bohu is used to define the rescue of the HEBREW PEOPLE.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #467 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 18:52:07 »
Here are some creation accounts.  After the people fell into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai Moses began to write or collect Hebrew history to REFUTE the Babylonian accounts because God sentenced the idolaters back to their places of origin as robbers of caravans.  The ALIEN programs feed off myths as does Islam and Mormans.

http://www.piney.com/Atrahasis.html

http://www.piney.com/BabCreAshur.html

http://www.piney.com/BabEnkNinhur.html

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #468 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 15:21:10 »
Hello All,


After prayer and meditation, I have decided to finish the post here and extend this thread to my next post “Who and What is God”.  I am human and have let the flesh rule me in some of my encounters here.  I will try and not let that happen again. 

 

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth… 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 


John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise…20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: …24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 

The holy spirit sent by the Father in the Messiah is the only witness here.  The holy spirit in the Messiah is the witness of the Messiah. 


1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Comment: Flesh and blood is equivalent to water and blood.  Flesh in the NT doesn’t only mean physical flesh, but the soul of man (human nature).

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-17.htm

Definition of G4561. sarx : flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred. 


John 5:7 was not presented above for good reason. 


http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-john-5-7-8


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57


Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #469 on: Sun Apr 08, 2018 - 19:21:06 »
Hi All,

To continue with the last post:

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (soul) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Lev 17:11 For the life (water) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,…

Comment: The life (soul) of the body is in the flesh (blood).  When the body dies, the soul leaves it.  Man's soul is intimately connected to his body.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #470 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 00:21:33 »
Hello All,


After prayer and meditation, I have decided to finish the post here and extend this thread to my next post “Who and What is God”.  I am human and have let the flesh rule me in some of my encounters here.  I will try and not let that happen again. 

 

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth… 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 


John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise…20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: …24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 

The holy spirit sent by the Father in the Messiah is the only witness here.  The holy spirit in the Messiah is the witness of the Messiah. 


1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Comment: Flesh and blood is equivalent to water and blood.  Flesh in the NT doesn’t only mean physical flesh, but the soul of man (human nature).


There is no justification for cherry-picking those verses and trying to link them.

Whatever is the meaning of "water and blood" in 1 John 5, it is not used as a stand-alone idiom.  The context is, "not just water, but water AND."

OTOH, in Matt. 16, "flesh and blood" clearly IS an idiom, meaning "human beings."

Quote
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-17.htm

Definition of G4561. sarx : flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred. 


This in NO way shows that "flesh" and "soul" are the same.  There may be specific cases that suggest that, but it would depend heavily on context.

Quote
John 5:7 was not presented above for good reason. 


http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-john-5-7-8


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57


[quote ]
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (soul) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.[/quote]

This departs from John's usage.  When he uses "water" as a metaphor, it is typically for the life-giving Spirit.

Quote
Lev 17:11 For the life (water) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Yes, here, "life" is "nephesh" in the Hebrew, and the equivalent "psyche" in the LXX.  But there is NO justification for changing it to "water," when the text does not mention water, and instead explicitly links it to "blood."  Or perhaps you think the "proper" translation is this:

"For the water of the flesh is in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your waters:  for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the water."

Quote

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,…

Comment: The life (soul) of the body is in the flesh (blood).  When the body dies, the soul leaves it.  Man's soul is intimately connected to his body.


You are mixing words, definitions, and citations in a disjointed, falsely-jointed, meaningless, incomprehensible way.

 ::frustrated::   ::shrug::

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #471 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 05:06:11 »
Quote
1st John 5:5-8~"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
It's not that deep~the Spirit testifies (in and by the holy scriptures) that Jesus came by water~meaning he was born of a woman after the likeness of sinful flesh for sins; blood speaks of his death! What does the scriptures say about these things? A Lot! Water=his birth of a virgin named Mary; blood=his death as he was the lamb of God given for the sins of his people. The Spirit of God testifies of these things over and over in the word of God.
Quote
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
He that believeth THESE THINGS concerning Jesus Christ being the Son of God is he that overcometh the world. Do you believe he came by WATER and BLOOD? Then you believe the record God gave of his Son.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 05:17:44 by RB »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #472 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 05:52:16 »
NorrinRadd Responded to my above post:

There is no justification for cherry-picking those verses and trying to link them.

Whatever is the meaning of "water and blood" in 1 John 5, it is not used as a stand-alone idiom.  The context is, "not just water, but water AND."

OTOH, in Matt. 16, "flesh and blood" clearly IS an idiom, meaning "human beings."

This in NO way shows that "flesh" and "soul" are the same.  There may be specific cases that suggest that, but it would depend heavily on context.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (soul) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.[/quote]

This departs from John's usage.  When he uses "water" as a metaphor, it is typically for the life-giving Spirit.

Yes, here, "life" is "nephesh" in the Hebrew, and the equivalent "psyche" in the LXX.  But there is NO justification for changing it to "water," when the text does not mention water, and instead explicitly links it to "blood."  Or perhaps you think the "proper" translation is this:

"For the water of the flesh is in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your waters:  for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the water."


My Response:

I had stated “water AND blood, which I believe is parallel to flesh AND blood. True, flesh and blood is an idiom for human beings.  But it doesn’t stop there.  We need to look at the components. The most important component in 1 John 5:6 is water. Because it comes first, and then “blood” is appended to it  Water is symbolic of spirit.  I hope you didn't think I was talking about H2O.  I took it for granted that you knew I was talking about the symbolic meaning of water, which agrees with you. 

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy spirit was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.):

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/7-38.htm

If you click on the above link, and then on H 2386, you will find that one of the definition, namely 5 is defined as innermost being.  The water or spirit flows from the Messiah unto the innermost beings (mind) of those that receive it.  The Messiah’s soul is bonded with the holy spirit as one.  It was not so before Christ had ascended into heaven.  So, in verse 39, it is “the spirit was not yet” and not “the spirit was not yet given”. Given is a spurious word.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Comment: Did Christ not have the holy spirit until Acts 2:33 or thereabouts.  He surely did, but he hadn’t received the “promise of the holy spirit” until he had ascended into heaven.  This is when he became the son of God with power and his soul was bonded as one with the holy spirit. 

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Comment: We are baptized in water to symbolize dying with Christ (Acts 2:31: body and soul). Physical water symbolizes being buried in a water grave (the Messiah's soul.


Water in 1 John 5:6 symbolizes the Messiah’s soul. The scriptures above prove it.


John 1:14 And the Word (God) was made (became one with) flesh (the soul of the flesh), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only (one of a Kind or anointed) of the Father,)) full of grace and truth.

Comment: I had gone over this in dept within the confines of this long thread.   The Word (spirit of God) became one with flesh (the spirit of the flesh) of the Messiah. 

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Comment: Flesh here in red is the human soul which is in contrast with the holy spirit. 



http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm

click on the link above: Scroll down to #3.  You will find this definition of flesh:
human nature, the soul included:  If you go to #4, you will find basically the same definition with Matt 16:17 used as a reference. 

So now for the last part of both Matt 16:17 and 1Joh 5:6:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Comment: Here flesh in Lev 17:11 has to represent the human body. So where did the life in the blood come from?  Blood is shown in both Matt 16:17 (b) and 1 John 5:6 (b). The life in it had to come from Matt 16:17 (a) and 1 Joh 5:6 (a). Here flesh in Matt 16:17 (a) has to represent soul.  This is the same spirit as in James 2:26 below.   
 
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, …

Comment: So, water in 1 John 5:6 (a) and "flesh" in Matt 16:17(a) represents soul.  These represents in both verses the “life of the flesh” in Lev 17:11 which is in the blood in both  Matt 16:17 (b) and 1 Joh 5:6 (b)

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #473 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 05:58:58 »
RB quoted: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,

This verse is not in the original Greek manuscripts but was added to support the trinity.  I will discuss this in dept on my next thread. 

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #474 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 07:15:05 »
From Albert Barnes Notes On the Bible:

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven ... - There are three that “witness,” or that “bear witness” - the same Greek word which, in 1Jo_5:8, is rendered “bear witness” - μαρτυροῦντες  marturountes. There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this. The supposed importance of the verse in its bearing on the doctrine of the Trinity has contributed to this, and has given to the discussion a degree of consequence which has pertained to the examination of the genuineness of no other passage of the New Testament. On the one hand, the clear testimony which it seems to bear to the doctrine of the Trinity, has made that portion of the Christian church which holds the doctrine reluctant in the highest degree to abandon it; and on the other hand, the same clearness of the testimony to that doctrine, has made those who deny it not less reluctant to admit the genuineness of the passage.
It is not consistent with the design of these notes to go into a full investigation of a question of this sort. And all that can be done is to state, in a brief way, the “results” which have been reached, in an examination of the question. Those who are disposed to pursue the investigation further, can find all that is to be said in the works referred to at the bottom of the page.  The portion of the passage, in 1Jo_5:7-8, whose genuineness is disputed, is included in brackets in the following quotation, as it stands in the common editions of the New Testament: “For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth,) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” If the disputed passage, therefore, be omitted as spurious, the whole passage will read, “For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” The reasons which seem to me to prove that the passage included in brackets is spurious, and should not be regarded as a part of the inspired writings, are briefly the following:

I. It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek manuscript written before the 16th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age - one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen’s New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in all the early Greek manuscripts.

II. It is missing in the earliest versions, and, indeed, in a large part of the versions of the New Testament which have been made in all former times. It is wanting in both the Syriac versions - one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, and Arabic.

III. It is never quoted by the Greek fathers in their controversies on the doctrine of the Trinity - a passage which would be so much in point, and which could not have failed to be quoted if it were genuine; and it is not referred to by the Latin fathers until the time of Vigilius, at the end of the 5th century. If the passage were believed to be genuine - nay, if it were known at all to be in existence, and to have any probability in its favor - it is incredible that in all the controversies which occurred in regard to the divine nature, and in all the efforts to define the doctrine of the Trinity, this passage should never have been referred to. But it never was; for it must be plain to anyone who examines the subject with an unbiassed mind, that the passages which are relied on to prove that it was quoted by Athanasius, Cyprian, Augustin, etc., (Wetstein, II., p. 725) are not taken from this place, and are not such as they would have made if they had been acquainted with this passage, and had designed to quote it.

IV. The argument against the passage from the external proof is confirmed by internal evidence, which makes it morally certain that it cannot be genuine.
(a) The connection does not demand it. It does not contribute to advance what the apostle is saying, but breaks the thread of his argument entirely. He is speaking of certain things which bear “witness” to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah; certain things which were well known to those to whom he was writing - the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. How does it contribute to strengthen the force of this to say that in heaven there are “three that bear witness” - three not before referred to, and having no connection with the matter under consideration?
(b) The “language” is not such as John would use. He does, indeed, elsewhere use the term “Logos,” or “Word” - ὁ Λόγος  ho Logos, Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; 1Jo_1:1, but it is never in this form, “The Father, and the Word;” that is, the terms “Father” and “Word” are never used by him, or by any of the other sacred writers, as correlative. The word “Son” - ὁ Υἱός  ho Huios - is the term which is correlative to the “Father” in every other place as used by John, as well as by the other sacred writers. See 1Jo_1:3; 1Jo_2:22-24; 1Jo_4:14; 2Jo_1:3, 2Jo_1:9; and the Gospel of John, “passim.” Besides, the correlative of the term “Logos,” or “Word,” with John, is not “Father,” but “God.” See Joh_1:1. Compare Rev_19:13.
(c) Without this passage, the sense of the argument is clear and appropriate. There are three, says John, which bear witness that Jesus is the Messiah. These are referred to in 1Jo_5:6; and in immediate connection with this, in the argument, 1Jo_5:8, it is affirmed that their testimony goes to one point, and is harmonious. To say that there are other witnesses elsewhere, to say that they are one, contributes nothing to illustrate the nature of the testimony of these three - the water, and the blood, and the Spirit; and the internal sense of the passage, therefore, furnishes as little evidence of its genuineness as the external proof.

V. It is easy to imagine how the passage found a place in the New Testament. It was at first written, perhaps, in the margin of some Latin manuscript, as expressing the belief of the writer of what was true in heaven, as well as on earth, and with no more intention to deceive than we have when we make a marginal note in a book. Some transcriber copied it into the body of the text, perhaps with a sincere belief that it was a genuine passage, omitted by accident; and then it became too important a passage in the argument for the Trinity, ever to be displaced but by the most clear critical evidence. It was rendered into Greek, and inserted in one Greek manuscript of the 16th century, while it was missing in all the earlier manuscripts.

VI. The passage is now omitted in the best editions of the Greek Testament, and regarded as spurious by the ablest critics. See Griesbach and Hahn. On the whole, therefore, the evidence seems to me to be clear that this passage is not a genuine portion of the inspired writings, and should not be appealed to in proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. One or two remarks may be made, in addition, in regard to its use.
(1) even on the supposition that it is genuine, as Bengel believed it was, and as he believed that some Greek manuscript would still be found which would contain it , yet it is not wise to adduce it as a proof-text. It would be much easier to prove the doctrine of the Trinity from other texts, than to demonstrate the genuineness of this.
(2) it is not necessary as a proof-text. The doctrine which it contains can be abundantly established from other parts of the New Testament, by passages about which there can be no doubt.
(3) the removal of this text does nothing to weaken the evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, or to modify that doctrine. As it was never used to shape the early belief of the Christian world on the subject, so its rejection, and its removal from the New Testament, will do nothing to modify that doctrine. The doctrine was embraced, and held, and successfully defended without it, and it can and will be so still.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #475 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 07:42:48 »
The above is a good article by 4WD.  I agree with the author until we get to the bottom of the page to the last three sentences, namely:

"The doctrine which it contains can be abundantly established from other parts of the New Testament, by passages about which there can be no doubt.
(3) the removal of this text does nothing to weaken the evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, or to modify that doctrine. As it was never used to shape the early belief of the Christian world on the subject, so its rejection, and its removal from the New Testament, will do nothing to modify that doctrine. The doctrine was embraced, and held, and successfully defended without it, and it can and will be so still.

The issue of the Trinity and its history will be discussed soon on the next thread: "Who and What is God".  There is still the issue with Matt 28:19 whether it too was added later.  And can the trinity be defended?  I personally do not think so.  Anyway, it should be interesting.   

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #476 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 07:55:00 »
Comment: Flesh here in red is the human soul which is in contrast with the holy spirit. 



http://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm

click on the link above: Scroll down to #3.  You will find this definition of flesh:
human nature, the soul included:  If you go to #4, you will find basically the same definition with Matt 16:17 used as a reference. 

So now for the last part of both Matt 16:17 and 1Joh 5:6:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Comment: Here flesh in Lev 17:11 has to represent the human body. So where did the life in the blood come from?  Blood is shown in both Matt 16:17 (b) and 1 John 5:6 (b). The life in it had to come from Matt 16:17 (a) and 1 Joh 5:6 (a). Here flesh in Matt 16:17 (a) has to represent soul.  This is the same spirit as in James 2:26 below.   
 
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, …

Comment: So, water in 1 John 5:6 (a) and "flesh" in Matt 16:17(a) represents soul.  These represents in both verses the “life of the flesh” in Lev 17:11 which is in the blood in both  Matt 16:17 (b) and 1 Joh 5:6 (b).


As near as I can tell, you are confused concerning the body [flesh], the soul and the spirit of the human being.  Throughout Scripture the body, i.e, flesh, stands in contrast to the soul and/or the spirit.  While there is a distinction to be made between the soul and the spirit, for all practical purposes, when the subject is the human being, the soul and spirit are the same.  That is particularly true in the NT.

Several years ago  Wycliffes_Shillelagh noted this correctly.  He said, if I remember right,  "I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit".  That pretty well sums it up.  The body and the spirit combine to form the human as a living being, i.e., soul.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #477 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 12:54:35 »
RB quoted: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,

This verse is not in the original Greek manuscripts but was added to support the trinity.
You are wasting your time trying to prove to me that certain scriptures have been inserted into the holy scriptures that should not be there, just as Albert Barnes did. I have his whole commentary set which I have read some over years but have never been impressed with his writings and even less when he believes he wiser than what God has preserved for us to believe.
Quote from: The apostle John
1st John 5:5-8~"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
I look at these scriptures and have absolutely no problem in seeing what they are saying and how it fits perfectly with the scriptures teaching concerning the Godhead. The Godhead is ONE in its Divine nature, yet presented to us as THREE as far as their respective work in creation and the redemption of God's elect. Such a perfect flow of all scriptures, including 1st John 5:5-8.
Quote
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God who came by water and blood, is he that possess eternal life and will overcome false teachers who have many strange doctrines concerning Jesus Christ.
Quote
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
Jesus Christ Is the TRUE God, I AM THAT I AM, the everlasting Father of all things!
Quote
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
There is a PERFECT AGREEMENT of the Spirit's testimony concerning Jesus' conception, birth, and death recorded for us in the holy scriptures to believe so that we can be victorious over our enemies who labor to corrupt God's testimony concerning his Son.

IF you are going to try to penknife 1st John 5:7 from the holy scriptures what are you going to attack next? or add next? Maybe you think this scripture was added as well:
Quote
2nd Corinthians 13:14~"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
It's called rightly dividing the word of truth according to the Godhead's respective work in the redemption of God's elect. When that is done, then one can easily see that the Godhead IS ONE, yet manifested as three ONLY according to their respective work and the order in which those works were carried out and done.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 13:17:37 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #478 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 13:44:37 »

Gal 5:16,  I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


Our Spirit is born-again and covered by the Blood of Jesus.

The body houses the spirit and soul during our earthly life.

The soul is comprised of 1) our mind (how we think), 2) our emotions (how we feel), 3) and our will (how we choose)

Romans 12:2, And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.


3 testified on earth. Right. The water, the blood, and the Spirit. 

The soul should not be contrary to that of the Spirit. 

By some things we walk in the Spirit. By walking in the fruits of the Spirit. (Gal. 5:22-23)

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #479 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 16:38:33 »
The soul is comprised of 1) our mind (how we think), 2) our emotions (how we feel), 3) and our will (how we choose)
Do you have some Scripture to support that or is that just what you think the soul is?

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #480 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 18:38:17 »
Do you have some Scripture to support that or is that just what you think the soul is?

Well, it is from a seminar I attended. A program study to train disciples to walk in the Spirit. (a spiritual cleansing seminar)

The O.T. word for soul, nephesh, means "that which breathes," and corresponds with the N.T. word Greek word, psuche, which means"soul or life." It comprises the emotional life, the desires, the will, the appetites, and the lusts of the individual through the thinking and reasoning aspect of the mind.

Each part- spirit, soul, and body- that God has created in man has separate functions and are to operate in harmony if man is to be fulfilled as God intends him or her to be.

What is your definition of the "soul?"   

Do you agree with mine?

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #481 on: Mon Apr 09, 2018 - 19:08:47 »

Each part- spirit, soul, and body- that God has created in man has separate functions and are to operate in harmony if man is to be fulfilled as God intends him or her to be.


I can't agree with that. Being fulfilled is not a matter of harmonizing our parts as if they are operating in disparity. It is a matter of our wills coming into alignment with God's will.

In other words, fear God and keep His commandments. This is the whole of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #482 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 06:58:48 »
Well, it is from a seminar I attended. A program study to train disciples to walk in the Spirit. (a spiritual cleansing seminar)

The O.T. word for soul, nephesh, means "that which breathes," and corresponds with the N.T. word Greek word, psuche, which means"soul or life." It comprises the emotional life, the desires, the will, the appetites, and the lusts of the individual through the thinking and reasoning aspect of the mind.

Each part- spirit, soul, and body- that God has created in man has separate functions and are to operate in harmony if man is to be fulfilled as God intends him or her to be.

What is your definition of the "soul?"   

Do you agree with mine?
Not really.  The problem with your definition of soul is that the OT "nephesh" is not just for mankind, but rather is for animals as well.  Gen 1:20  Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." The "living creatures" there in verse 20 are the Hebrew "nephesh".  Similarly, the "living creatures" in verse 24 and the "living being" in Genesis 2:7. Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
 

The soul is what gives physical life to the bodies of animals, including man.  It is, strictly speaking, distinct from the spirit.  The soul is actually a feature of the physical being of man.  The spirit is not.  It is separate from the physical being and is formed in man by God as we see from Zechariah;  Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

We are not really given very much information, and certainly no detail, about the spirit.  Most of what we can glean from the Bible about the spirit of man comes very much from what we are told about the Spirit of God, i.e., the Holy Spirit; for it is in the spirit of man that God created man in His own image.  It, the spirit of man, is that element of the heavenly that is imparted to each and every individual on earth. 

Now when the Bible, both OT and NT, speak about man or mankind, it often uses "soul" and "spirit" as one an the same.  That is particularly true of the NT.  Therefore you will not be wrong in doing the same most of the time.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 07:01:09 by 4WD »

Offline lea

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #483 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 10:10:38 »
Well, according to Solomon, the jury is still out. Animals may go to heaven too.

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath [spirit] of man ascends upward and the breath [spirit] of the beast descends downward to the earth?" Ecclesiastes 3:19-21


Animals are called living creatures in Genesis and there are living creatures in heaven in Revelation:

a.       Living creatures in Genesis:

      “Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature  [soul/nephesh] that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.” (Genesis 9:9–10)

b.      Revelation has living creatures in heaven:

       “Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.” And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,” (Revelation 4:5–9)

Since man is made in the image of God and since man can love an animal as much as a human, such a bond is worthy of eternity. Why would God allow us to create bonds with things we love and never see again?


Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #484 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 11:39:56 »
Well, according to Solomon, the jury is still out. Animals may go to heaven too.

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath [spirit] of man ascends upward and the breath [spirit] of the beast descends downward to the earth?" Ecclesiastes 3:19-21


Animals are called living creatures in Genesis and there are living creatures in heaven in Revelation:

a.       Living creatures in Genesis:

      “Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; and with every living creature  [soul/nephesh] that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.” (Genesis 9:9–10)

b.      Revelation has living creatures in heaven:

       “Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.” And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,” (Revelation 4:5–9)

Since man is made in the image of God and since man can love an animal as much as a human, such a bond is worthy of eternity. Why would God allow us to create bonds with things we love and never see again?
Yes animals are living creatures.  However, there is no indication, like Zech 12:1, that God has formed a spirit in any except man.  We are indeed living creatures but we have a spirit given us by God, Himself.

Offline lea

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #485 on: Tue Apr 10, 2018 - 15:24:50 »
 Well, I'm thinking like Solomon anyway!
 In the original Garden of Eden there were animals. This may be the setting again as the "new heaven" in heaven.

******AND NOT IN ANY "MILLENNIUM KINGDOM" ON EARTH!   ::help:: ::amen!::

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #486 on: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 04:36:01 »
Hi All,

This post is to be used as a reference for my next one. 


OT

5315. nephesh


Strong's Concordance

nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Original Word: נָ֫פֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Short Definition: soul


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion





NT

5590. psuché

Strong's Concordance

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Short Definition: the soul, life, self
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies
5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.


NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
of uncertain origin
Definition
breath, the soul
NASB Translation
heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7), mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1).

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #487 on: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 04:59:33 »
Hi All,



4WD

Throughout Scripture the body, i.e, flesh, stands in contrast to the soul and/or the spirit.




My Response:

In a literal sense this is very true: The body is what houses the soul.  The soul gives life to the body through the blood (Lev 17:11)


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (spirit) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul (spirit) unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.



LUKE 8:54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, Child, arise!
55 And her spirit returned, and she rose immediately;

Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul(spirit) was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.



Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (spirit) in hell (Hades: grave) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.: 

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul (G5590: spirit) in hell (grave of earth), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.




Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her  soul  (H5315)was departing, that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin. 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead...






But we have a metamorphic sense of the word flesh.  And this can be found in the definitions of this word in the concordance. Examples:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Comment: Here flesh in vs 17 is interpreted as lust from vs 16.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Comment: “not in the flesh” could not possible mean that the Romans whom Paul was speaking to did not have a body.  Rather, he admonished them not to live according to the evil desires of the flesh. Spirit of God is contrasted with the spirit of man. 


4WD wrote:

 Several years ago  Wycliffes_Shillelagh noted this correctly.  He said, if I remember right,  "I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit".  That pretty well sums it up.  The body and the spirit combine to form the human as a living being, i.e., soul.



My Response:

This statement in red could not be possible true.  Soul is but one definition of nephesh  (5315) in the OT.  Soul in English as in reference to the bible means essentially spirit.

Likewise, Psuché (5590) in the NT has soul as one of its definitions

Both nephesh and Psuche has soul as one of its definitions, with soul basically meaning the same as spirit.  Body is another definition of both nephesh and Psuche.  It is not the definition of soul.  It is the definition of nephesh and Psuche.

You basically adhere to the same as quoted by your last statement post #482 on page 14 of this thread that soul and spirit are interchangeable.


Here are two good articles on this:

Man’s spirit = his soul
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-2.htm
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm


Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #488 on: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 07:20:45 »
 I will stick by my statement [first from Wycliffes_Shillelagh],  " 'I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit'.  That pretty well sums it up.  The body and the spirit combine to form the human as a living being, i.e., soul."  And in doing so I will not misinterpret any passage of Scripture.  And that is sufficient for me.  The key element to understand is that mankind has an outward element and an inward element to his existence. Whether you understand that inward element as the soul or as the spirit is relatively unimportant.

You of course are free to do as you like, confused thought you somewhat seem to be.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 07:23:09 by 4WD »

Offline larry2

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #489 on: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 09:28:14 »
Would any here consider that Jesus came to die in shedding blood for us ungodly (Rom 5:6), and then we read in Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

 

     
anything