GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births  (Read 22404 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #560 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 01:14:26 »
Hiw does that compare to the examples in the NT? It was ALWAYS immediate baptism.

Not to beat you over the head, but why the delay?

I got saved -- alone in my dorm room -- in early 1980, around the middle of my sophomore year at a Penn State branch campus.  I'd been attending an interdenominational fellowship with my girlfriend and other campus friends.  There was never any mention of baptism.  The next year, I progressed to the main campus, and followed my girlfriend (she'd been saved since childhood) to the Alliance Christian Fellowship (ACF), campus outreach of the local C&MA church.  They're a fairly typical fundy-ish church that advocates "believers' baptism."  A few times each year, like many such churches, they held a baptism service for anyone who was saved and had never been baptized.  I think I skipped a few, since my recollection is that my girlfriend was no longer there, having changed majors and transferred to a different campus.  That would have meant it was my second year there.  Maybe even later, because I got sick and missed a term, and spent an extra year there.

Anyway, while C&MA advocates baptism, like most Evangelicals, they regard it as an ordinance, not a sacrament.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #560 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 01:14:26 »

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #561 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 01:24:22 »
What makes you think you were saved before you were baptized? What makes you think your sins were forgiven before you were baptized?  What makes you think you had the gift [the indwelling] of the Holy Spirit before you were baptized?

Just curious about that.

Objectively:  I turned to Him.  I called on Him in faith.  I confessed Him as Lord.  I was saved, and so, forgiven.

Subjectively:  I experienced the presence of the Spirit; God moved from "up there" to "in here."

When I got baptized, the only things that changed were that I got wet, and I got a piece of paper telling people I got wet.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #561 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 01:24:22 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5519
  • Manna: 311
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #562 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 05:26:00 »
What makes you think you were saved before you were baptized? What makes you think your sins were forgiven before you were baptized?  What makes you think you had the gift [the indwelling] of the Holy Spirit before you were baptized? Just curious about that.
Then you must be curious about ALL OT saints. Assurance comes LONG after water baptism, and to sure, water baptism DOES NOT give that lasting assurance.  The scriptures were given to give us to give us the evidence that we are children of God's promises. As far as we are concerned, the journey begins when we first believe, and OVER time assurances comes to us, some come sooner to them than to others~and for a few reasons.

Only those who put their legal salvation in water baptism would ever believe that they were born again at THAT POINT~trusting their obedience to water baptism as the means that they were born again. We are the those that trust TOTALLY in the obedience of Jesus Christ for the gift of eternal life, and certainly not in any work that we had a part in.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #562 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 05:26:00 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7417
  • Manna: 225
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #563 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 06:49:21 »
Then you must be curious about ALL OT saints.
Not at all.  No reason for any such curiosity.  Conditions for salvation under the Old Covenant were simply different from those under the New Covenant.

Quote from: RB
We are the those that trust TOTALLY in the obedience of Jesus Christ for the gift of eternal life, and certainly not in any work that we had a part in.
So that once again you profess that either all are saved by the obedience of Jesus Christ or that God simply created all but a few for eternal damnation, and that when He obviously could have saved all; which by any standard is a really ugly presentation of God.  You certainly do not profess the first.  So only the second is left.  In your view God could have saved every last person who has ever lived and will ever live but chooses instead to commit most to hell.  And you call that grace.  Sad, really, to have such a low opinion of God.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #563 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 06:49:21 »

Online e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6382
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #564 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:06:42 »
NorrinRadd,
Quote
I got saved -- alone in my dorm room -- in early 1980, around the middle of my sophomore year at a Penn State branch campus.  I'd been attending an interdenominational fellowship with my girlfriend and other campus friends.  There was never any mention of baptism.
Because you were taught wrong. 

Quote
The next year, I progressed to the main campus, and followed my girlfriend (she'd been saved since childhood) to the Alliance Christian Fellowship (ACF), campus outreach of the local C&MA church.  They're a fairly typical fundy-ish church that advocates "believers' baptism."  A few times each year, like many such churches, they held a baptism service for anyone who was saved and had never been baptized.  I think I skipped a few, since my recollection is that my girlfriend was no longer there, having changed majors and transferred to a different campus.  That would have meant it was my second year there.  Maybe even later, because I got sick and missed a term, and spent an extra year there.
In the New Testament, people didn't wait a year or years to get baptized, because it was taught as part of being saved. The fact that people nowadays wait, and delay, and skip is because baptism was not taught as it was the New Testament. It's a counterfeit teaching on baptism. If people had been taught baptism in the NT like is taught today, then you would likely see this issue of people waiting so long to get baptized as you described, and the apostles having to deal with it, because it's just human nature to act that way when baptism is not taught as part of being saved. The fact that it was never an issue shows that baptism in water was indeed taught in the NT as part of being saved.

Quote
Anyway, while C&MA advocates baptism, like most Evangelicals, they regard it as an ordinance, not a sacrament.
"Sacrament" is a Catholic thing.

Quote
When I got baptized, the only things that changed were that I got wet, and I got a piece of paper telling people I got wet.
Yes, you only got wet, because your baptism wasn't Biblical, because you were taught wrong.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 15:54:53 by e.r.m. »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #564 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:06:42 »



Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5519
  • Manna: 311
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #565 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:43:59 »
Not at all.  No reason for any such curiosity.  Conditions for salvation under the Old Covenant were simply different from those under the New Covenant.
Oh yes, it came out of your mouth just like I thought it would when I mention what I did to you! The fish took the bait.

So, you and your friends believe in CONDITIONS to be DONE before one can be born again! Of course, I knew that I just needed you to say it publicly~It makes my job easier to expose men like you.

Coming back in the morning to post to you and your friends who teach that one must be circumcise baptized BEFORE one can be saved.

Btw, Abraham, the father of the children of FAITH are made children the very SAME WAY~BY GOD'S PROMISES OF GRACE~maybe it's time to look at Galatians chapter four for our support. I'm born of God the VERY SAME manner that Issac was born, NO DIFFERENT.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #565 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:43:59 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7417
  • Manna: 225
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #566 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 15:01:19 »
Coming back in the morning to post to you and your friends who teach that one must be circumcise baptized BEFORE one can be saved.
I am very disappointed in you for that.  I have never said that and you know I have never said that.  Here you are twisting my words just as you seem to twist the words of Scripture.

What I have said, and you are well aware of it, is that God has presented us with conditions for the forgiveness of sin, for the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., for becoming one of the saved.  So long as one concede to His words, one can trust God to keep His word and live up to His promises.  What God chooses to do when one doesn't concede to His words is completely up to Him.

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1462
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #567 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 17:08:51 »
NorrinRadd,Because you were taught wrong. 
In the New Testament, people didn't wait a year or years to get baptized, because it was taught as part of being saved. The fact that people nowadays wait, and delay, and skip is because baptism was not taught as it was the New Testament. It's a counterfeit teaching on baptism. If people had been taught baptism in the NT like is taught today, then you would likely see this issue of people waiting so long to get baptized as you described, and the apostles having to deal with it, because it's just human nature to act that way when baptism is not taught as part of being saved. The fact that it was never an issue shows that baptism in water was indeed taught in the NT as part of being saved.
"Sacrament" is a Catholic thing.
Yes, you only got wet, because your baptism wasn't Biblical, because you were taught wrong.

Yes, I understand that according to your interpretation of Scripture, I am wrong, and by extension, an unsaved infidel, since my baptism was improper and ineffectual.  Fortunately, my conscience and salvation are not subject to your interpretation of Scripture.   ::smile::

"Sacrament" is not (just) a "Catholic thing."  Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Methodists, and at least some Reformed use the term to refer to "means of grace."  If you are of the view that God "does something" via baptism, particularly if it is an indispensible part of changing one from "unsaved" to "saved," then you are viewing baptism as a "means of grace" and a "sacrament," whether or not you use those terms.

Online e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6382
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #568 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 17:52:09 »
NorrinRadd,
Quote
Yes, I understand that according to your interpretation of Scripture, I am wrong, and by extension, an unsaved infidel, since my baptism was improper and ineffectual.  Fortunately, my conscience and salvation are not subject to your interpretation of Scripture.   ::smile::
I'm speaking to your younger self, although the beliefs you were handed at that time have certainly since been reinforced. I'm not saying you were wrong. I'm saying you were taught wrong, by others.

Quote
"Sacrament" is not (just) a "Catholic thing."  Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Methodists, and at least some Reformed use the term to refer to "means of grace."  If you are of the view that God "does something" via baptism, particularly if it is an indispensible part of changing one from "unsaved" to "saved," then you are viewing baptism as a "means of grace" and a "sacrament," whether or not you use those terms.
Fair enough.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 18:00:59 by e.r.m. »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #568 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 17:52:09 »