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Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #70 on: Fri Jul 29, 2016 - 08:46:08 »

Hey Red,

Relax, I am not quite finish.  I need the time on the weekend to finish up.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #70 on: Fri Jul 29, 2016 - 08:46:08 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #71 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 05:21:43 »
Hi All,

Red wrote:

Context is everything


Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.  10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:…13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken..


Psalm 100:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.  99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

1 Thes 5:21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
 
Comment: Before we start, I believe the above is key to understanding the scriptures.  I hope I fall in that category, somewhat at least.
Context is important, but taking pieces from here and there throughout the bible is most important to understand scripture, and it has scripture support.   It is the keys of understanding to some, and a detriment to understanding to others.  I believe picking the right definition of the words is important too—as long as all the pieces fit together.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come (G2064: to appear) in the flesh is of God:

John 1:14 And the Word (G1096 became one with flesh), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the (monogenes: anointed) of the Father, full of grace and truth.

From Wikipedia (monogenes)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogen%C4%93s

“Does the word mean "only begotten", as it is as traditionally rendered or…adjective…special child

http://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-Christ-mean.html

Comment: Christ means anointed one, not “only begotten”.

Comment: The spirit of Christ appeared in higher self of the Messiah.  The Messiah was born of the spirit of God (spirit of Christ) in his higher mind at conception.  He was not a reincarnation.  He was not eternally whole, then was developed as a babe in the womb of Mary, and then became whole again as he always was from eternity.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:...

Comment: It is alright to use your common sense in conjunction with scripture.









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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #71 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 05:21:43 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #72 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 05:44:56 »
Hi All,

http://utmost.org/his-birth-and-our-new-birth/

Comment: As quoted from the above link: “He is a Being for whom the human race can take no credit at all. He is not man becoming God, but God Incarnate— God coming into human flesh from outside it”.
 
Comment: As I have mentioned before in reference to John 1:14, the Messiah was born of God with the spirit of Christ in his higher mind at conception.  He was born of the seed of David in his flesh. 

1 Peter 23:20…Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/hebrews-10-22.html

Comment: The house of God in the NT is a royal priesthood. (1 Peter 2:9).  They are of the temple of God (the Messiah) and will be kings under the king.  Our bodies will be wash or changed (1 Cor 15:52, Luke 21:16). Our souls are part of our bodies.

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

1 Cor 3: 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

CommentWe will be resurrected as male and females.  If it were not so, then the temple of God would have been impaired.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Comment: Robes cover nakedness (Gen 3:10, 21)—no more procreation.

http://www.nestle-waters.com/healthy-hydration/water-body

Comment: Man is mostly water.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34  But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Comment: I suspect the Messiah body was mostly water—probably more than all. But spiritually, Water represents the word of God which is of the holy spirit of God.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #72 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 05:44:56 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #73 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 06:38:09 »
Hi All,

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing (Jer 17:9)[/b]: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10  I the LORD search the heart…

Comment: As we can see, we have two minds and two spirits.  We have the spirit of the mind and the soul of the flesh.  The human heart or soul causes us to sin, but because of the holy spirit in our inward man, we cannot sin there (1 John 3:9).

1 Cor 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:… 17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Comment: We apply the same one sacrifice of Christ in our souls when we sin.  We are washed by his the death of his soul or spirit of his body. Man was dead in his inward mind (Luke 9:60) because of the first Adam, but temporarily alive in his bodily spirit or soul.  His humanity is the water.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #73 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 06:38:09 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 07:17:38 »
Hi All,


https://www.thisisyourbible.com/index.php?page=questions&task=show&mediaid=904

John 6:62… the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Comment: The Word is the expression of God.  In the OT, the word displayed itself in dreams, theophanys and as an angelic or human being.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
But these outward displays were not the messiah that would come later.In the OT, the word is the holy spirit expressed.

Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (or with) whom also he made the worlds;

Comment: The word (or spirit) of God spoke to the prophets.  There was only one person composed of two parts
(John 1:1). 
The word of God was born into the human Christ. He is the spokeman in the NT.  He is the temple of God.  The temple part is a creation, like we are part of the temple and are creations.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
 
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/03/conscious-subconscious-unconscious-mind-work.html

An analogy of God consisting of two parts (minds) would be our minds consisting of three parts, namely our conscious, subconscious, and unconscious minds.
 
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20   For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21   For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Comment: When we receive the holy spirit, we receive the word of God.  The same was true in the OT.  But we are now also baptized into the Messiah’s soul.  Baptism means to submerge. But submerge into what?  It is being submerged into Christ’s death because Christ died for us..  The messiah was God and human.  The God part (of the holy spirit) is the word.  It never dies.  It became fully integrated into the Messiah during the end of his life and after his resurrected from the dead.

Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel. 

Comment: in the meantime, no one could receive the holy spirit from after the birth of John (Jesus came after) unto the ascension of Christ (John 7:39, Acts 8:16) Why? It is Because Christ had not grown into the full measure of the Word, now with a temple and its soul.
     
Rev 19:10 See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
When we are baptized, we are immersed in Christ’s death.  We are resurrected with his soul in our flesh, and receive the word or holy spirit in our minds
And the spirit (word) of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God (the Word) said What I see my father do, I do.

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html

Ezekiel 36:25-27: I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from fall your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV)



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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #74 on: Sun Jul 31, 2016 - 07:17:38 »



Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #75 on: Mon Aug 01, 2016 - 07:09:37 »
Hi All,


To prevent confusion, I will summarize the “water” part, soul, spirit, and the word in the above posts. 

1.   Water can refer to either the holy spirit or the soul.   
2.   Soul or flesh refers to the natural man; i.e. body, spirit of the body or both.  This is in contrast to the inner man which is totally invisible
3.   Spirit usually refers to the holy spirit
4.   Word refers to the expression of the holy spirit (John 1:1)
5.   Messiah refers to the word becoming one with flesh. 

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #75 on: Mon Aug 01, 2016 - 07:09:37 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #76 on: Sat Aug 13, 2016 - 16:43:49 »
Hi All,

I need to comment on one more thing.

Phil 2:7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Comment: There is one God composed of two parts. Like we a conscious, subconscious, and unconscious minds but are one being, God is one being of two minds.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Comment: It is the holy spirit that units our heavenly Father, Christ and his body (church).

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

2.Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"

Comment: Christ grew in the spirit. Where did he grow? He had to grow in the spirit of his mind.  Mind and spirit are related but different (Eph 4:23, Romans 8:27).  This is the mind of the Word (God) in full.  His spiritual mind did not grow. It was fully God always—in heaven and on the earth at his first coming.

http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=432

“But how does Philippians 2:7 say Christ emptied Himself? “Grammatically, Paul explains the ‘emptying’ of Jesus in the next phrase: ‘Taking the form of a servant and coming in the likeness of men’” (Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary).”
Philippians 2:7 does not teach that Christ emptied himself of His deity. Rather, to His divinity He added humanity (i.e., He was “made in the likeness of men”). For the first time, He was subject to such things as hunger, thirst, pain, disease, and temptation (cf. John 19:28; Hebrews 4:15). In short, He came to Earth as a God-man.”

Comment: His humanity is his body and soul.  His spiritual mind existed from all eternity.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #77 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 06:44:09 »
Hi All,

The advertisement by Islam on this site:
Qur'anic Warners

Only One God (No Trinity)

Jesus will Deny your Worship of himself on the Last Day Go to quranicwarners.org



The article quotes from both the bible and the Qur'an as proof that there is only one God and no trinity—which I believe is true.  But they deny that Christ is God, and that he is a prophet only.  One of the verses they quote from the bible is 1 Cor 8:5 to prove this. So let us look at this verse and some of the other bible verses that relate to this topic.
 
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 14:19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Church > Christ > our heavenly Father

http://www.prca.org/resources/publications/cr-news/item/858-who-are-christ-s-brethren

Comment: Who are Christ’s brethren?  It is the church of whom Christ is the cornerstone.  Christ is both God and man.  So “but to us” in verse 6 above in 1 Cor 8 refers to the whole church—the temple of God.  It is the human element part in this equation. We are in our heavenly Father through the human element of Christ, his soul.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Comment: Our heavenly Father is in us through the holy spirit via the Word or expression that is Christ—the God part of our savior.  There is only on God.  But that one God is composed of our heavenly Father and his Word. It is not composed of his temple--the human part.

Heavenly Father > Christ > church



Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Interlinear Bible
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-9.htm

Cor 2:9 For in him dwells all the fullness of the deity bodily.

Comment: It is clear that Christ was both the son of man and the son of God—fully man and fully God.
 
Matt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Comment: Who is called Lord in the OT?  Is it not the Word? The Lord (Word) is how the holy spirit expresses itself in the visible and audible.  The temple of God (Christ) is the human element in body (now permanent) and soul.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #78 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 13:47:35 »
Hi All,

Some Bible Verses that say “Jesus is God”

http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #78 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 13:47:35 »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #79 on: Sun Sep 04, 2016 - 15:14:36 »
Hi All, 

Let’s visit I Cor 8:5 one more time.  This is one of the major verses Islam uses from the bible to “prove” that Christ is not God.

1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Comment:  Our heavenly Father of the one God calls the shots “of whom are all things”. Christ of the one God executes them “by whom are all things”—always.  The separation of Lord and God is to distinguish what part of God is doing what function. As I have shown above, Christ is also called God.  Now is our Father also called Lord?  See below. So calling Christ Lord does not mean he is not God.  And calling our heavenly Father God does not mean he is not LORD.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/names-god/9_father.htm

Some quotes:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
"He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock of my Savior.'" (Psalms 89:26)


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #80 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 04:05:59 »
Truthcomber wrote :
Quote
Hi All,


To prevent confusion, I will summarize the “water” part, soul, spirit, and the word in the above posts. 

1.   Water can refer to either the holy spirit or the soul.   
2.   Soul or flesh refers to the natural man; i.e. body, spirit of the body or both.  This is in contrast to the inner man which is totally invisible
3.   Spirit usually refers to the holy spirit
4.   Word refers to the expression of the holy spirit (John 1:1)
5.   Messiah refers to the word becoming one with flesh. 

Born Of Flesh

Flesh is the outer while soul is the inner part of the same physical man. Job 14:22 KJV declares:
But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.

The NAME of God is to Him what the flesh/soul is to the physical man.

Whosoever is born of flesh is flesh.


Born Of Water

Drawn out from the flesh and bone of Adam was Eve. The woman became the man's glory.

Drawn out from God's NAME is His GLORY. Habakkuk 2:14 KJV declares:
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea.

For the earth, from which dust the man/woman were created/made, shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of God.

Therefore, whosoever is glorified, either with peace, the hope of glory or with the glory proper, is born of water.


Born Of the Spirit

The Spirit of God is the strength/power base of God. The Spirit moves upon the face of the water (glory)in which the earth (from which the living flesh/soul was created) stands out of.

Whosoever has obtained and is led by the Spirit is born of the Spirit.


Seeing And Entering The Kingdom Of God

The kingdom of God is righteousness (from faith in His Name), peace (from His Glory) and joy (from His Strength/Power).

Correspondingly, any flesh/soul who sees and enters the Kingdom of God must be born again (become new again) in righteousness  (from faith), in water (peace/glory) and in the Spirit (strength/power)
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 04:17:00 by Glorious »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #81 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 06:40:38 »
Hi All,

Glorious wrote:

Born Of Flesh

Flesh is the outer while soul is the inner part of the same physical man. Job 14:22 KJV declares:
But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
The NAME of God is to Him what the flesh/soul is to the physical man.
Whosoever is born of flesh is flesh.


Below is a good article on this.  Flesh can mean different things in different contexts. It can mean, like you stated, the body of a person. But I believe it can also mean the body, the spirit or soul of the body, or the spirit of the body and the body together. Matt 16:17 is a good example.

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/flesh/

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #82 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 02:29:47 »
Hi All,

Glorious wrote:

Born Of Water

Drawn out from the flesh and bone of Adam was Eve. The woman became the man's glory.

Drawn out from God's NAME is His GLORY. Habakkuk 2:14 KJV declares:
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea.

For the earth, from which dust the man/woman were created/made, shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of God.

Therefore, whosoever is glorified, either with peace, the hope of glory or with the glory proper, is born of water.


Comment: I love your abstract reasoning here—it is very good.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God (holy spirit) did lighten it, and the Lamb (water) is the light thereof.

Comment: But I see born of the spirit and water here. I believe our heavenly Father is the Holy Spirit and the source of it.  The word is of that spirit and how it gets expressed. It gets expressed through the temple of God. This age church is that temple, Christ the chief cornerstone

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #83 on: Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 02:35:32 »
Hi All,

Glorious wrote:

Born Of the Spirit

The Spirit of God is the strength/power base of God. The Spirit moves upon the face of the water (glory)in which the earth (from which the living flesh/soul was created) stands out of.

Whosoever has obtained and is led by the Spirit is born of the Spirit.

Seeing And Entering The Kingdom Of God

The kingdom of God is righteousness (from faith in His Name), peace (from His Glory) and joy (from His Strength/Power).

Correspondingly, any flesh/soul who sees and enters the Kingdom of God must be born again (become new again) in righteousness  (from faith), in water (peace/glory) and in the Spirit (strength/power)


Comment: I can't disagree with any of this.


Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #84 on: Sat Sep 17, 2016 - 15:34:17 »
Howdy All,


The Spiritual Progression of the Saints




Matt 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Comment: The spirit in the inner man of mind is either of the holy spirit (life abundance) or just spirit. Spirit is the life force of all (Romans 8:10, Eccl 12:7).  All living are of one breath or spirit (Eccl 3:19). There is just one spirit—but of  different frequencies or intensities.
 
Matt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead (emphasis mine: all), have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Comment: The spirits in the inner minds of the dead OT saints were alive when they died, even if their bodies and souls were dead.



 
At this point, the saints have spirit consciousness.




John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead (souls) shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
 
Comment: Now from the ascension of Christ, soul life and spirit of all the saints are now alive, but here the bodies are still dead.  Saints sleep in the body of Christ (1 Thes 4:14).  The Greek word for sleep here is rest.

So now they have soul consciousness (Rev: 6:9-10). They are not given their own bodies until the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Comment: Notice “Christ the firstfruits” in verse 23.  Christ is singular and firstfruits is plural. “Christ the firstfruits” pertains to the present church age from Adam to Christ to the first resurrection.  “afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming” pertain to all the rest of mankind.  Notice also “every man” in verse 23.  This matches “even so in Christ all shall be made alive” in verse 22.  ‘Alive” here means everlasting life, because all have temporal life already.




The saints at this point have now have soul consciousness added to their spirit consciousness.




Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.




At this final stage, saints have spirit consciousness soul consciousness, and a spiritual body.




So the progression of saints are:

1st everlasting spirit
2nd everlasting soul
3r everlasting body

1 Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Offline bemark

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #85 on: Sun Sep 18, 2016 - 05:42:52 »
 i have heard of a lot of teachers sayin this and that but the truth is do they hold it in the spirit realm. mostly no they dont because they have never been there. you have to go through yourself before you can release that what is above, so it can come upon or down to earth as it is in heaven. for that to happen you must have had, that what comes upon because that is your first door into the spirit realm.Born of spirit i get but water i have guessed it was water baptism as we are priests and kings. so the washing and then the given throne in the spirit realm. Jesus was in the water and then recieved the fire or the throne of dominion that he had to defend by endurring the wilderness.  but im no teacher of the word but i enter the spirit all the time and as you do you have to fight . interested in what u think . but above that,  you can tell who holds a spiritual gate as when they pray its either open or closed. you can release the power or not.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #86 on: Sun Sep 18, 2016 - 15:58:41 »
Howdy All,

BenMark wrote:



i have heard of a lot of teachers sayin this and that but the truth is do they hold it in the spirit realm. mostly no they dont because they have never been there. you have to go through yourself before you can release that what is above, so it can come upon or down to earth as it is in heaven. for that to happen you must have had, that what comes upon because that is your first door into the spirit realm.Born of spirit i get but water i have guessed it was water baptism as we are priests and kings. so the washing and then the given throne in the spirit realm. Jesus was in the water and then recieved the fire or the throne of dominion that he had to defend by endurring the wilderness.  but im no teacher of the word but i enter the spirit all the time and as you do you have to fight . interested in what u think . but above that,  you can tell who holds a spiritual gate as when they pray its either open or closed. you can release the power or not.



My Response:



John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Comment: Now this has to do mostly with faith in the word of God

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David (Psalm 119:99) he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name…10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (matt 24:13)…

Comment: We must keep and meditate on God’s word.  Yes, God opens our minds to this.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Comment: We grow steadily into understanding God’s word with patience little by little.


https://books.google.com/books?id=ht5NAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=bible+success+not+by+a+sudden+flight&source=bl&ots=ZH5Mj3z0Aw&sig=u6daOsRgt8e819lYmme5qiSe2rM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi008eRzpnPAhUP6GMKHdFgAvwQ6AEIMTAE#v=onepage&q=bible%20success%20not%20by%20a%20sudden%20flight&f=false

Comment: But unless God calls you to this endeavor, you will not attain it. Not all Christians obtain the same level of Knowledge. It is shared among the brethren.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh (Matt 7:7) after God.

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
God reveals things to us through his holy spirit.
 
Prov 27 17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Comment: Christians discuss these things among themselves to God's pleasure .

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Comment: We live in a time of great spiritual revival and understanding.  This is a proof of the time of the last days are here.

Have men of God been caught up in the spiritual realm and you seem to understand?  Yes they have..

2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 

2 kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Comment: Have I ever experience these kinds of events in my life?  The closest was a few years ago.  I was lying on my bead thinking how heaven would be like and what is out there in the universe.  So I looked intently.  And lo and behold I felt my whole person being caught up into the universe.  I was flying through the stars at an incredible speed.  I put on the brakes and forced myself to awaken—it was so startling.  Moral of the story: be careful what you ask for, you might get it.  My younger brother said he would have let himself go.

Comment: I have had a few visions which I feel that I should not go into at this time.


What are your experiences?

Offline bemark

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #87 on: Mon Sep 19, 2016 - 14:53:59 »
Very much the same type of thing where sometimes you are taken there while in deep worship or by being in prayer praying into areas or in the still just with him. Taken into heaven one time where i was in a garden and there was a garden seat and on that seat, was all i can say a spirit being or God himself,  in a monks type of dress with a hood. I heard the words " God is light and in him is no darkness" I then was taken in to see inside the hood of the one who was on the seat and sore a  universe with planets and stars etc and i was being sucked into it with a increasing speed. I believe i sore creation being made and i witness the greatness of God. I truly believe i would have dissapeared into it because he made me look away.  He was gone and a brief sadness came , And then my vision looked futher away and then there where trees but were was he, and then hidden in the trees was a shimmering of his shape like heat waves that appeared and then he was gone and the vision then ended. The chase was on. I need to revisit it and sit inside it with the word of God. I have had many visions like above and have felt the kingdom come upon many times as you learn how to open it and go through,  to open another door above it. There are levels of power. As you enter you sometimes see or hear or have a spiritual understanding of what the Lord is trying to show you. With this realm of his kingdom you can open it up over churches while in worship or use it in prayer to break through and smash anything that is in the way. Just transition your self  back and forth from one kingdom to the next until that what is above now is fully below. Just sum keys that you can have fun with.

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #88 on: Mon Sep 19, 2016 - 15:45:35 »
Very much the same type of thing where sometimes you are taken there while in deep worship or by being in prayer praying into areas or in the still just with him. Taken into heaven one time where i was in a garden and there was a garden seat and on that seat, was all i can say a spirit being or God himself,  in a monks type of dress with a hood. I heard the words " God is light and in him is no darkness" I then was taken in to see inside the hood of the one who was on the seat and sore a  universe with planets and stars etc and i was being sucked into it with a increasing speed. I believe i sore creation being made and i witness the greatness of God. I truly believe i would have dissapeared into it because he made me look away.  He was gone and a brief sadness came , And then my vision looked futher away and then there where trees but were was he, and then hidden in the trees was a shimmering of his shape like heat waves that appeared and then he was gone and the vision then ended. The chase was on. I need to revisit it and sit inside it with the word of God. I have had many visions like above and have felt the kingdom come upon many times as you learn how to open it and go through,  to open another door above it. There are levels of power. As you enter you sometimes see or hear or have a spiritual understanding of what the Lord is trying to show you. With this realm of his kingdom you can open it up over churches while in worship or use it in prayer to break through and smash anything that is in the way. Just transition your self  back and forth from one kingdom to the next until that what is above now is fully below. Just sum keys that you can have fun with.
My advice to you is this: You need to stop eating a big plate of spaghetti before you go asleep!

Offline bemark

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #89 on: Mon Sep 19, 2016 - 16:25:26 »
Lol. I like spaghetti

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #90 on: Wed Sep 21, 2016 - 03:13:34 »
Hi Benmark,


It is prophesied in Joel that during the end time events, visions will increase and be the order of the day

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Comment: Acts 2:16 is just a foretaste of what was prophesied to happen now.

So if you see visions from God, then bless you.



P.S.  I'm glad you ate spaghetti and not eat a pork before retiring in bed. rofl








Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #91 on: Sat Jan 28, 2017 - 17:14:43 »
Hi All,

Just one more thing.

Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Comment:  Christ is David’s Lord because Christ is of the eternal God—the Word which is of the one holy Spirit (John 1:1)  He is the son of David because he is David’s descendant according to the flesh (body and soul)(Romans 1:3).

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house (temple), an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Comment: The temple of God is human.  It is composed of Christ’s spiritual body and soul (second Adam) of which the church members are part of.  The holy spirit dwells in this temple—the word is part of that one holy spirit.  The word became one with flesh. 


Lester

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #92 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 07:10:27 »
Howdy All,


Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Comment: No one burning in hell here.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Comment: Everyone will worship God.

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; (Gk 1899: thereafter) they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (Gk:1534:Therefore) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-23.htm

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath (crucifixion) be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:..

Comment: John 5:25 Job 14:13-14 and 1 Cor 15:22 all go together.  For salvation is from the resurrection and ascension of Christ.  Notice the word firstfruits in 1 Cor 15:22.  It is plural. The church of the present age puts on Christ.  We are one with him.
 
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Comment: The present day church need only wait to receive new bodies. 
http://www.heaven.to/contents/new_bodies.htm

1 Cor 15:22…(Gk 1899: thereafter) they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (Gk:1534:Therefore) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of (damnation or judgment).
 
Comment: These two scriptures go together. “They that are Christ at his coming” in the latter part of John 5:25 above are a different group then the present church age that are his now.  What is damned or destroyed in John 5:28 is death. 

1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (rest) in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (rest).

Comment: Now does 1 Thes 4:13 contradict John 11:25Asleep (G2837) in 1 Thes is metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet.  Notice in 1 Thes 4:14 the church sleeps in Christ and not in the earth.
 
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest (G373) yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Comment: The common definition of G2837 and G373 are rest.  So that it is.  It is not death. 

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.


Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #93 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 11:52:18 »
Truthcomber,
Quote
To prevent confusion, I will summarize the “water” part, soul, spirit, and the word in the above posts. 

1.   Water can refer to either the holy spirit or the soul.
Water can also refer to WATER.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #94 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 14:07:20 »
Hi All,

e.r.m. wrote:
Water can also refer to WATER.


My response: Good point. I would never have thought about that…fits right in with what is currently being expounded upon.   

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #95 on: Sat Feb 11, 2017 - 21:40:06 »
Howdy All,


Quoted the wrong scripture:

I had written:

Comment: These two scriptures go together. “They that are Christ at his coming” in the latter part of John 5:25 above are a different group then the present church age that are his now.  What is damned or destroyed in John 5:28 is death.

Correction:
Comment: These two scriptures go together. “They that are Christ at his coming” in the latter part of 1 Cor 15:22 above are a different group then the present church group (first part of 1Cor 15:22) that are his now.  What is damned or destroyed in John 5:28 is death.

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #96 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 04:43:22 »
Jesus omitted water when describing, or explaining the new birth....WHY? Simple..... water in verse five is referring to the our first birth into this world...the sack of water breaks, and one is then born into this world.

Nowhere in all of the Bible, in all of history or even today, outside of some really terrible commentaries, will you find the phrase "born of water" to be a euphemism for physical birth.  Moreover, that Jesus would make being born physically a requirement for entering into the kingdom of God is truly ridiculous.  Who could possibly not meet that requirement? It limits no one.

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #97 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 05:12:48 »
Truthcomber,

John 5:24-29 presents two resurrections:

Joh 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


The first resurrection, Jesus says, is in an hour coming and now is when the dead will hear and live.  That is clearly a case of the dead being raised to life, i.e., a resurrection.  In this case it is the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins who, upon hearing and believing, are made alive.  This is the first resurrection.  It is regeneration, it is born again.

The second resurrection, Jesus says, is of all who are in the tombs will hear and come forth.  That is the case of the resurrection of the physically dead at the end of the age when Christ returns.

That is not the only time we read of two resurrections.

Rom 8:10  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


In verse 10 refers to the spiritual resurrection we experience in regeneration.  Verse 11 refers to the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns.

And one other place specifically speaking of two resurrections is Revelation 20:4-6 where it describes those having experienced the first resurrection are "blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power," (v.6) These are obviously, by the message of the entire NT must be those in Christ, those raised from the dead in trespasses and sins to life in Christ Jesus.   And where there is a first there must be a second.

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #98 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 05:22:37 »
Nowhere in all of the Bible, in all of history or even today, outside of some really terrible commentaries, will you find the phrase "born of water" to be a euphemism for physical birth.  Moreover, that Jesus would make being born physically a requirement for entering into the kingdom of God is truly ridiculous.  Who could possibly not meet that requirement? It limits no one.
I'll make it quick and very simple. 4WD, Jesus would have "never" mention water if poor Nicodemus had not mentioned going back into his mother's womb and being born again. Yes, context is king and it does indeed drive the interpretation for us. Follow my brother the flow of the conversation and it is so clear what Jesus meant by water. So what if most all commentaries miss it, they miss much. We all are born into this world like a wild ass, dumber than a telephone post when it comes to spiritual truth, and ONLY by the grace of God, are we able to come to some knowledge of the truth.
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John 3:4-6~"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water ( ONCE) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; (WATER) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The flesh can be born a thousand times over and STILL be flesh! We must be born of the Spirit of God BEFORE we can see and understand, which is WHY Jesus said what he did to Nicodemus....Nicodemus DID SEE and UNDERSTOOD to a small degree, yet his own humble confession caused Jesus to say what he did to him!
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Jon 3:2~"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."
This godly and humble confession is good as mine or yours, my brother, and Nicodemus' understanding is much like yours on this truth. But, I do love you.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 05:25:58 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #99 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 06:20:35 »
Nowhere in all of the Bible, in all of history or even today, outside of some really terrible commentaries, will you find the phrase "born of water" to be a euphemism for physical birth.  Moreover, that Jesus would make being born physically a requirement for entering into the kingdom of God is truly ridiculous.  Who could possibly not meet that requirement? It limits no one.
I'll make it quick and very simple. 4WD, Jesus would have "never" mention water if poor Nicodemus had not mentioned going back into his mother's womb and being born again.
That is simply an assertion that is quite beyond your capacity to know.  The simple truth is that if born of water means born physically it was a metaphor that was never used before and never used after that occassion.  Moreover, it is a meaningless requirement; one that Jesus would never have imposed because it is meaningless. There are several references to baptism as the occasion of rebirth or resurrection, i.e., regeneration.  John 5:24-25 gives the perfect picture of that as do Romans 6:1-16; Colossians 2:11-12; 1 Peter 3:21.  Other passages present baptism as the point at which sins are forgiven and the new creature is given life. 

One other point of interest in that passage;  When Jesus says "that which is born of flesh is flesh", He is denouncing any possibility of original sin or total depravity, a condition of the spirit, being passed down through physical birth.  He is saying that any spiritual deficiency can not be "born of flesh". The spirit given at birth [or before] is from Spirit [God] not from the flesh [parents].  What is to be reborn is the spirit.  It is to be regenerated.  It is to be reborn [regenerated] to the righteous state it was when God formed it initially.
Quote
Quote
John 3:4-6~"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water ( ONCE) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; (WATER) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
You have a very dangerous tendency to insert words into the Scriptures that were not there to begin with, thus changing the meaning of the verses.
Quote
The flesh can be born a thousand times over and STILL be flesh!
No, it can't.  It can be born only once.
Quote
We must be born of the Spirit of God BEFORE we can see and understand,
No, we must be reborn of the Spirit before we can enter the kingdom of God.  Nothing is said there about needing to be born to see and understand.

The spirit is born first when it is formed in man. Because of trespasses and sins of the man, the spirit must be reborn, born again, born from above, regenerated.  That is by water and the Spirit.

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #100 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 07:17:02 »
Howdy All,

Howdy All,

4WD wrote:

The first resurrection, Jesus says, is in an hour coming and now is when the dead will hear and live.  That is clearly a case of the dead being raised to life, i.e., a resurrection.  In this case it is the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins who, upon hearing and believing, are made alive.  This is the first resurrection.  It is regeneration, it is born again.
The second resurrection, Jesus says, is of all who are in the tombs will hear and come forth.  That is the case of the resurrection of the physically dead at the end of the age when Christ returns. 


My Response:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Comment:  In Rev 20:5 I quote “…This is the first resurrection.” What is the antecedent here?  It is verse 20.4 above, “those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years.”   It also refers to verse 6 below that: “blessed and holy is he in the first resurrection...and shall reign a thousand years.   The rest of the dead in verse 5 lived after the thousand years.  It does not refer to the first part of verse 5.  Thus the first resurrection proceeds the thousand years reign of the saints.   Revelation is not written in chronological sequence.  It was meant that way to disguise the hidden meaning.

Rev 20:5 would make more sense to the carnal if it was written as so:

5. This is the first resurrection.   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. 
and one version does have it this way.

Comment: The saints in the first resurrection reign with Christ for a thousand years.  You would have to expect that there would be another resurrection after the thousands. And there is.
 
That’s where John 5:28-29 comes in.  This is not at the end of the age when Christ comes back but at the end of the thousand years when Christ reigns with his saints. 


4WD wrote:   

The first resurrection, Jesus says, is in an hour coming and now is when the dead will hear and live.  That is clearly a case of the dead being raised to life, i.e., a resurrection.  In this case it is the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins who, upon hearing and believing, are made alive.  This is the first resurrection.  It is regeneration, it is born again
My response:

Most of this is true.  But what about the righteous dead before Christ was resurrected from the dead.  Job said he would wait until after Christ had ascended unto heaven (Job 14:13).  So did the rest of the O.T. saints which had to wait in faith.  Being born again has three parts: of the spirit of God, of the soul of Christ, and of a new body formed in the likeness of Christ.  The latter occurs at the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #101 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 08:15:51 »
Howdy All,

Howdy All,

4WD wrote:

The first resurrection, Jesus says, is in an hour coming and now is when the dead will hear and live.  That is clearly a case of the dead being raised to life, i.e., a resurrection.  In this case it is the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins who, upon hearing and believing, are made alive.  This is the first resurrection.  It is regeneration, it is born again.
The second resurrection, Jesus says, is of all who are in the tombs will hear and come forth.  That is the case of the resurrection of the physically dead at the end of the age when Christ returns. 


My Response:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Comment:  In Rev 20:5 I quote “…This is the first resurrection.” What is the antecedent here?  It is verse 20.4 above, “those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years.”   It also refers to verse 6 below that: “blessed and holy is he in the first resurrection...and shall reign a thousand years.   The rest of the dead in verse 5 lived after the thousand years.  It does not refer to the first part of verse 5.  Thus the first resurrection proceeds the thousand years reign of the saints.   Revelation is not written in chronological sequence.  It was meant that way to disguise the hidden meaning.

Rev 20:5 would make more sense to the carnal if it was written as so:

5. This is the first resurrection.   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. 
and one version does have it this way.

Comment: The saints in the first resurrection reign with Christ for a thousand years.  You would have to expect that there would be another resurrection after the thousands. And there is.
 
That’s where John 5:28-29 comes in.  This is not at the end of the age when Christ comes back but at the end of the thousand years when Christ reigns with his saints. 


4WD wrote:   

The first resurrection, Jesus says, is in an hour coming and now is when the dead will hear and live.  That is clearly a case of the dead being raised to life, i.e., a resurrection.  In this case it is the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins who, upon hearing and believing, are made alive.  This is the first resurrection.  It is regeneration, it is born again
My response:

Most of this is true.  But what about the righteous dead before Christ was resurrected from the dead.  Job said he would wait until after Christ had ascended unto heaven (Job 14:13).  So did the rest of the O.T. saints which had to wait in faith.  Being born again has three parts: of the spirit of God, of the soul of Christ, and of a new body formed in the likeness of Christ.  The latter occurs at the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Truthcomber,

You interpret Revelation 20:4 a bit incorrectly.  There are two groups mentioned there, not just one.  One group is the martyrs beheaded because of the faith.  John sees only their disembodied souls. Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven.  The second group consists of "those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on the forehead and on the hand."  This cannot be the same gorup as the martyrs, for contrary to what is implied in some of the translations there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated "those who had been beheaded" and "those who had not worshiped."  The former phrase is a genitive participle and is correctly translated as modifying  "souls".  The latter phrase, however, is an aorist verb preceded by the nominative plural relative pronoun, hoitines, "whoever", which is the subject.  That hoitines is nominative, not genitive, means that it does not modify "souls", i.e., John does not say that he saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast.  However the latter group is connected with "I saw" at the beginning of the verse; it is a broader category than the martyrs as such, and refers simply to whoever is not on Satan's side, whether in heaven or on earth. 

Note also that it does not say that those who participate in the first resurrectoin will not participate in the second resurrection also.  It says simply that some will experience only the second resurrection.  And those participating in the first resurrection will escape the second death, i.e, the lake of fire, hell.  There is shown here a redemptive power of the first resurrection.

The thousand years is now.  We are in the millennium. We are now reigning with Christ.  The "thousand'" years like most numbers in Revelation is figurative, meaning a really long undefined time.  At the end of the millennium, Christ comes back and the end is reached and judgment begins.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 08:18:50 by 4WD »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #102 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 08:20:15 »
4WD,
Quote
Nowhere in all of the Bible, in all of history or even today, outside of some really terrible commentaries, will you find the phrase "born of water" to be a euphemism for physical birth.  Moreover, that Jesus would make being born physically a requirement for entering into the kingdom of God is truly ridiculous.  Who could possibly not meet that requirement? It limits no one.
I was thinking this. Well said. The by grace alone, through faith alone community tries to insert this ridiculous idea of physical birth into John 3:5 instead of water baptism to make it fit their belief system, but they don't think of the implications.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 13:02:24 by e.r.m. »

Offline Truthcomber

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #103 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:22:41 »
Howdy All,


4 WD wrote:

"You interpret Revelation 20:4 a bit incorrectly.  There are two groups mentioned there, not just one.  One group is the martyrs beheaded because of the faith.  John sees only their disembodied souls. Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven. 
The second group consists of "those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on the forehead and on the hand."  This cannot be the same gorup as the martyrs, for contrary to what is implied in some of the translations there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated "those who had been beheaded" and "those who had not worshiped."
"


The relevant scripture

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

My Response:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon… 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
 
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Comment: Those that have not received the mark of the beast in their hands or forehead or worshiped the beast and its image consist of both those that will be beheaded and those that have not and will not be.  For both the “dead” in Christ and those “alive in Christ” will be of the first resurrection when Christ returns.  This is one group and not two, 

4 WD wrote:

"  This cannot be the same gorup as the martyrs, for contrary to what is implied in some of the translations there is no parallelism in the Greek phrasing translated "those who had been beheaded" and "those who had not worshiped." 
 
My Response:  There is no parallelism here—you are right.  But instead, those that are martyred by being beheaded are a subgroup of all who will be in the first resurrection. 

4 WD wrote:

 John sees only their disembodied souls. Thus we may conclude that they are in heaven. 

My Response:

1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:…51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Comment:  “and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,” doesn’t mean that John saw disembodied souls.  It just means that he recognizes them as the martyrs.   

4 WD wrote:

"The former phrase is a genitive participle and is correctly translated as modifying  "souls".  The latter phrase, however, is an aorist verb preceded by the nominative plural relative pronoun, hoitines, "whoever", which is the subject.  That hoitines is nominative, not genitive, means that it does not modify "souls", i.e., John does not say that he saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast.  However the latter group is connected with "I saw" at the beginning of the verse; it is a broader category than the martyrs as such, and refers simply to whoever is not on Satan's side, whether in heaven or on earth. "
 
My Response: 
Revelation 20 Interlinear

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-4.htm

So you judge.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #104 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:32:12 »
Howdy All,

4 WD wrote:

"Note also that it does not say that those who participate in the first resurrectoin will not participate in the second resurrection also.  It says simply that some will experience only the second resurrection.  And those participating in the first resurrection will escape the second death, i.e, the lake of fire, hell.  There is shown here a redemptive power of the first resurrection".

My Response:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Comment:There is no need for the righteous dead to participate in two resurrections.  Those in the first resurrection will be judges with Christ.  Saying that, why would they need to be judged in the second resurrection?  The ones in the second resurrection are resurrected from their graves.  This occurs at the end of the millennium.
 
4 WD wrote:

"The thousand years is now.  We are in the millennium. We are now reigning with Christ."

My Response:

I don’t think so.