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Author Topic: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births  (Read 24512 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #175 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 06:55:51 »
 Given unto us as promise by Peter upon repentance and baptism. The Spirit pricks the heart to Godly sorrow. Godly sorrow LEADS TO repentance, repentance LEADS TO salvation. Godly sorrow is not regeneration. It LEADS TO it. Peter gave the 3000 the roadmap to regeneration. God gave the Godly Sorrow in their hearts making a way for what what Peter said they needed to do to receive the indwelling Spirit. Godly sorrow is initiated by the Spirit of God upon our hearts. The Spirit comes to dwell within us as scripture teaches upon being born of the water (not of a woman) and the Spirit when we are baptised into Christ. At least that's what happened to me as well as the 3000.
« Last Edit: Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:26:57 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #175 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 06:55:51 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #176 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:02:37 »
Yogi, thanks for the question, but get yourself in here and give the wisdom I know you have.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #176 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:02:37 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #177 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:18:26 »
how does one get the indwelling spirit??
The Holy Spirit is freely given unto us.
Quote
Romans 5:5~"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Yogi's question was not if but how.  Romans 5:5 simply states that He is given unto us; but it says nothing about the means by which He is given or any conditions for Him to be given.

On the other hand, Acts 2:38 describes it quite clearly.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #177 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:18:26 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #178 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:29:14 »
I am at work right now but do plan to come back and discuss this but want to take the time to give thoughtful onsite and scriptural answers not just knee jerk reaction this to me is a very serious topic and needs to be dealt with as such. The answers are written in the book we just have to study what is written with truth seeking eyes that are open for truth even if it differs from what we conceive as true in our own minds. We can come together as one mind on this subject of such importance for it is clearly taught in the word. We have to give and take both view and put them with scripture yo find the truth. If I have come to the wrong understanding I am open to correction and hopefully all others in this discussion are as well. I want to be teaching it correctly because I know I will suffer great concenquences for teaching falsehood in Gods name.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #178 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:29:14 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #179 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:29:49 »
John 3 is without question the most misunderstood portion of God's word, even by those born of God.
And I would submit that you are chief among those who misunderstand John 3.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #179 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:29:49 »



Offline SwordMaster

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #180 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 17:36:22 »
NR said...

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For all of you who believe water saves you, and there are many of you, was this "water baptism" that Jesus spoke about with Nicodemus the water baptism of Jews or the water baptism of Christians?
 

First of all, this is the same age old argument put up by calvinists...water does not save anyone, and no one here has said that it does, to my understanding. But certain of false doctrines always have to play that card...sad, really.

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Keep in mind that the "Christian baptism" refers to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
   

No, it doesn't. Christian baptism was from the beginning the rite of entrance into the New Covenant, into Christ Himself, just as the Scriptures teach. The symbolic side of baptism is the death, burial, and resurrection of the believer...NOT of Christ. Your theology is horribly skewed on that part, NR.

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So why is it that Jesus, right then and there, while speaking to Nicodemus, expected Nicodemus to have a clue about anything related to Christ's death, burial and resurrection?
   

He didn't, because that was not what He was talking to him about. He was speaking of the OT passages where God said that He would give them a new heart, making them a new creation.

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The truth is that Jesus was speaking ONLY about spiritual re-birth and Christ DID expect this man of God, Nicodemus, to have known about that and He became rather frustrated that Nicodemus did not understand, just as I become rather frustrated with some of you who post here and are so blind to the truth of this passage of Scripture.
 

Actually, in failing to understand that Jesus is talking about baptism, you are part of the group that fails to understand that truth.

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For most of my life, including when I was in the Christian Church as a child, and in the Churches of Christ as a teen-ager, I knew then that this passage had nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism.
   

Then, actually, for most of your life, or all of your life, you were dead wrong on your false assumption that He is not addressing water baptism.

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I was amazed then, as I remain now, that anyone could conclude that Jesus was speaking about water baptism.
 

Again, seeing what you have posted here over the last few years, I am still amazed that you have not come to your senses and have yet to understand that what He is talking about is water baptism. If you really think He meant that a person had to be born physically first before he can be born spiritually, then you do have a REAL problem in your theology. That's just nonsense to the utmost, demonstrating spiritual blindness and bias-driven theology to the core.

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What upsets me the most is how you folk who have this belief are misleading so many to believe that we are saved by works and not by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
   

More calvinistic nonsense. Not all who hold to the truth that Jesus addresses water baptism in John 3:5 hold that we are saved by works...as a matter of fact, I have not seen any posts by anyone so far who holds to that false accusation on your part. Baptism is not a work of the Mosaic law - unless you are so steeped in calvinistic false doctrine that you cannot distinguish between obedience to the law and simply doing what is right...which wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.

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God never has, nor ever will, accept your works when it comes to salvation.  That work was assigned to the Son of God, Jesus Christ.   You must think you are a "Christ" to think you can save yourself.  That's as foolish as it gets.

the foolishness here is on your part, NR, by automatically assuming that Jesus speaking about receiving water baptism means performing a work. Your theology is about as far out there as it can go. Are you one of those "ultra calvinists" that holy people warn us about? It sure sounds like it.






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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #180 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 17:36:22 »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #181 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 17:38:50 »
how does one get the indwelling spirit??
The Holy Spirit is freely given unto us.
Quote
Romans 5:5~"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Yes, He is...but one cannot receive the Spirit unless he is in the New Covenant, because the indwelling Spirit is a covenant gift, given only to those who are abiding in the covenant. Free does NOT equate to being unconditional.


Offline SwordMaster

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #182 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 17:39:42 »
John 3 is without question the most misunderstood portion of God's word, even by those born of God.
And I would submit that you are chief among those who misunderstand John 3.


 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::



Online NorrinRadd

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #183 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 03:35:35 »
Some pertinent comments from Keener in the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

John 3:1–8
Conversion as Birth from Above
Jesus explains to Nicodemus that religious knowledge and ethnicity are not a sufficient basis for a relationship with God; one must be born into his family by the Spirit. John often contrasts water rituals and the Spirit

...

3:3–4. Jesus speaks literally of being born “from above,” which means “from God” (“above” was a Jewish circumlocution, or roundabout expression, for God). One could also construe the phrase as meaning “reborn,” which Nicodemus takes literally. (Ancient writers, including those of the Old Testament— Jer 1:11–12; Mic 1:10–15 —often used plays on words, and John includes quite a few other puns; they also sometimes used other characters as less intelligent foils for a narrative’s main spokesperson.) Because Jewish teachers spoke of Gentile converts to Judaism as starting life anew like “newborn children” (just as adopted sons under Roman law relinquished all legal status in their former family when they became part of a new one), Nicodemus should have understood that Jesus meant conversion; but it never occurs to him that someone Jewish would need to convert to the true faith of Israel.

3:5. Converts to Judaism were said to become “as newborn children” when they were baptized to remove Gentile impurity. “Born of water” thus clarifies for Nicodemus that “born from above” means conversion, not a second physical birth.
The Greek wording of 3:5 can mean either “water and the Spirit ” or “water, that is, the Spirit.” Ezekiel 36:24–27 used water symbolically for the cleansing of the Spirit (cf. especially the Dead Sea Scrolls), so here Jesus could mean “converted by the Spirit” (cf. 7:37–39)—a spiritual proselyte baptism. Whereas Jewish teachers generally spoke of converts to Judaism as “newborn” only in the sense that they were legally severed from old relationships, an actual rebirth by the Spirit would produce a new heart (Ezek 36:26).

3:6–7. The “spirit” that is born from God’s Spirit may reflect the “new spirit” of Ezekiel 36:26.

3:8. One could also translate “sound of the wind” as “voice of the Spirit” (for plays on words, see comment on 3:3–4). The wind is unpredictable and uncontrollable (see Eccles 8:8; cf. Eccles 1:6, 8, 14, 17; 2:11, 17, 26; 4:4, 6, 16; 6:9). The Spirit was symbolized as wind in Ezekiel 37, which some Jewish interpreters linked with Genesis 2:7 (cf. Jn 20:22).


Mark 1:4–5. Like many other ancient peoples, Jewish people practiced ceremonial washings. Their only once-for-all ceremonial washing, however, was the immersion that non-Jews had to go through when they converted to Judaism. Non-Jews who were converting to Judaism would immerse themselves in water, probably under the supervision of a religious expert. John’s baptizing activity fits this model.

Jewish people also practiced “ repentance ” when they did something wrong, asking God’s forgiveness and determining to change. (The Old Testament prophets often used this Hebrew idea of “turning” from sin; it involves more than just a “change of mind,” which is the literal sense of the Greek term used here.) But the ultimate example of repenting, or turning from a wrong way of living to a right way of living, was when a non-Jew decided to obey the teachings of Israel’s God.

To tell Jewish people that they had to be baptized or repent the same way non-Jews did would have been offensive, because it challenged the prevalent Jewish belief about salvation. Most Jewish people thought that if they were born into a Jewish family and did not reject God’s law, they would be saved; John told them instead that they had to come to God the same way that non-Jews did. The point of John’s baptism is that everyone has to come to God on the same terms.

The Jordan River was the most natural place for John to have the people immerse themselves, but this location may have also evoked Israel’s history of salvation (Josh 3–4). John’s coming in the “wilderness” could evoke Israel’s history, too, especially because Isaiah 40:3 predicted the herald of a new exodus there, and many Jewish people expected the Messiah to come as a new Moses there.

1:8. Some passages in the Old Testament speak of the Spirit being poured out like water. These passages refer especially to the time of God’s kingdom, when he would cleanse his people and endow them with power to speak for him (Is 44:3; Ezek 36:25–27; Joel 2:28–29). Jewish tradition in Jesus’ day still stressed that the Spirit would cleanse and provide prophetic anointing in the end time.

Matt. 3:11 ... The prophets had predicted the outpouring of God’s Spirit 7 on the righteous at the time when God established his kingdom for Israel (Is 44:3; Ezek 39:29; Joel 2:28). They also decreed fire upon the wicked (Is 26:11; 65:15; 66:24; Jer 4:4; 15:14; etc.). In Matthew 3:11, the wicked are baptized, or immersed, in fire (3:10, 12), the righteous in the Holy Spirit.

3:12. Because the same Greek word can mean both “spirit” and “wind,” the picture of wind and fire carries over from 3:11. Winnowing was familiar to all Palestinian Jews, especially to the farmers: they would throw harvested wheat into the air, and the wind would separate the heavier grain from the lighter chaff. The chaff was useless for consumption and was normally burned. Some other writers also described the day of judgment as a harvest (4 Ezra 4:30–32; cf. Jer 51:33; Joel 3:12–14) or the wicked as chaff (Is 17:13; Jer 13:24; 15:7; etc.). That the fire is “unquenchable” points beyond the momentary burning of chaff to something far more horrible (Is 66:24), in spite of the fact that Jewish tradition itself was far from unanimous concerning the duration of hell

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #183 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 03:35:35 »

Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #184 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 04:35:10 »
And I would submit that you are chief among those who misunderstand John 3.
I'm here defending using scriptures, much more than you have so far, and SwordMaster who can only use his same old logical fallacies, name calling, Phariseesaical proud statements which he uses over and over again~and reason being, he has no truth from the holy scriptures supporting him.

When Jesus said to Nicodemus...
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John 3:10~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Well, if he truly understood doctrine of Soteriology as taught in the OT scriptures, then he would have understood what it meant to be born OF GOD, which he did not, yet being a master in Israel. There's a man on the broad who calls himself "......Master" who knows less than Nicodemus and certainly with much less humbleness of mind and self-worth.   

Question for you and your comrades....How was John the Baptist born again? The same way that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and David, etc. were born of God! Let me help you, for you do not know, or, refuse to accept, or both!

By his Spirit quickening them to spiritual life from being dead in sins, and giving them his Spirit to guide and teach them~this work of grace is done for the children of promise sovereignly by his grace alone, apart from the will of the flesh and the will of man...... "solely" accroding to his OWN WILL.
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Luke 1:15~"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
John was born of the Spirit in his Mother's womb~unlike the thief on the cross who was born of God just before he died! The two extremes concerning when the birth of the Spirit does and can take place..ALL APART FROM MEANS~that is.... the will of man, and the will of the flesh. Both you and your comrades believe that BOTH the will of man and the will of flesh has to be ACTIVE before one can be born of God, yet God's word testifies otherwise. I will follow God, not you or any other man~Even if I stand alone. Before Pentecost, Jesus Christ and his apostles (after they finally learned the truth) in their doctrine taught expressly that being born again was totally of God and man did not contribute one thing to this birth, not ONE THING.
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John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
The same manner in which Abraham was born of God....
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Isaiah 51:2~"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."
The call of God is the same as being elected by grace~and in time all of the children of God's promises are called out of darkness by the life given voice of God. This is beautifully illustrated by Abraham's son Isaac.
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Galatians 4:22-31~For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Do I need to give an exposition of these wonderful scriptures? You, Swordmaster and others are clinging to the covenant of WORKS, and mocked and make fun of the children of promise....what saith God concerning these things?
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Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman
Bold words, yet soberingly words for any to ponder who think they have a part in their salvation from sin and condemnation. I prefer the New Covenant supported by better promises which were secured by the faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Sun May 14, 2017 - 04:40:08 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #185 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:28:40 »

Question for you and your comrades....How was John the Baptist born again? The same way that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and David, etc. were born of God! Let me help you, for you do not know, or, refuse to accept, or both!
John the Baptist was not born again.  Born again, Rebirth, REgeneration is strictly a New Covenant gift.  That you do not understand that is why so much of what you wrote in the previous post is in error.
« Last Edit: Sun May 14, 2017 - 07:32:36 by 4WD »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #186 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 10:35:22 »
I have thoughtfully prayed over this as how to approach this discussion with the many various views and post that have been made so far and have come to the conclusion that I should start from the very first and study how baptism is taught from scripture.

First lets note that baptism is real and has real meaning to God that it is not just something we do as show. It was so real that God made a special person who soul purpose was to teach it.

Luke 1:11-17 (KJV)
11  And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12  And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13  But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14  And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15  For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16  And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

What was the message this hand picked man of God taught??

Luke 3:2-3 (KJV)
2  Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3  And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Read closely what it says [bold]  preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;[/b]

Baptism was designed for the purpose of remission of sin. It is Gods plan here not man and it clearly is spelled out what baptism is for.

Now at this time baptism not complete it is in its infancy stage as we see John teach.

Luke 3:16 (KJV)
16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Johns baptism is a transitioning baptism into the soon to be completed baptism of the spirit.  Johns baptism could not give the indwelling spirit as Christ baptism for Christ had not yet been glorified. The cross is soon to fill the purpose of baptism. That is why Johns baptism is of water and Jesus is of spirit. Only after the cross can the spirit be given. Thus John 3:3 born of water and the spirit.

So yes At that point in time Johns baptism was for remission of sin and placed one in a holding of repentance awaiting the fulfillment of the kingdom to come. It was the beginning gospel of Christ just as the word tells.

Mark 1:1-9 (KJV)
1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6  And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7  And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Baptism is recorded in the word of God as being part of the gospel. At this point it is just the beginning it is in its infancy it is waiting to be completed but it is recorded as baptism for the remission of sin.It does have a purpose it is not hidden from anyone but clearly spelled out just what baptism is for.



Now after the cross is baptism still in play??

Yes no longer Johns but now baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is fulfilled and now replaces that of John.

After Peter opens the doors to the kingdom we all been waiting for the first sermon preached was Christ death burial and resurrection and upon hearing this the response is recorded as ?

Acts 2:37-39 (KJV)
37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Here we see the completed plan that started with God giving John his marching orders. Now the cross is fulfilled and the completed purpose for baptism is finalized. We are to repent and be baptized in Christ name for the remission of sin and to received the promised indwelling of the spirit.

It is spelled out right there what baptism is for and what is done in baptism. It is not a work of man as many like to claim for if one reads the true purpose for which God made baptism in Christ name they can only see that it is God who is at work in this no way can man force the transformation of dead in sin to alive in Christ. Only God can do the work in baptism in Christ name man can only submit to God for the sanctification he offers.

Some tell me that it is not related to remission of sin but Paul tells that it is.

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul records that baptism washes away sin just as Peter preached on the first day he opened the doors to the new kingdom. Paul also says it is calling on the name of the Lord. It is recorded so all men can read.

Paul also teaches it is because of the cross sins are remitted in Baptism. When many at Corinth was debating over how was more for who baptized them what did Paul say?

1 Corinthians 1:13 (KJV)
13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

The clear note hear is that Jesus was crucified for you that is why you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. The baptism that Jesus is to baptize with is this baptism of Acts 2:38 for he died for you so this is clear teaching that the cross is where the work of the cross is that gives the baptism in Jesus name the power to remit sin and give the indwelling spirit.

Some tell me that it is a dry baptism that gives the spirit one is baptized by the spirit void water baptism. I have yet to find the scriptures for that but Acts 2:38 is clear confirmed by other passages.

As stated above the remission of sin is verified in Acts 22:16
It being the water baptism of Acts 2:38 is verified in Acts 10

Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Clearly recorded that the baptism in Jesus name the one He was to baptize with is indeed in water.

Also the fact that it is where the indwelling spirit is also give and recorded difference between the baptism of John and of Christ is clearly recorded in Acts as well.

As to the comparison of the baptisms we see it confirmed here starting in Acts 18

Acts 18:24-26 (KJV)
24  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25  This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Apollos was teaching and baptizing in the name of John after the cross because he had not been up dated but when  Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. They taught Apollos the completed (more perfectly)gospel of Christ.

In Chapter 19 we see Paul ran into these that must had been taught by Apollos and read what is recorded on the matter.

Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 It is recorded that the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is where the spirit is given. The baptism of John is of no effect because the baptism in Christ name that Christ is to baptize with is in effect today and in it and only it is the indwelling spirit given.

There are more and more scripture that teaches just what baptism is and accomplishes Per Romans 6:3ff but I think I have given enough to show what the scriptures teach and admittedly left a bunch out for this is way to long already  but we can go through them if needed.

I am not saying that Baptism is the  only thing that saves or that it is a work of man but I am saying that it is part of the Gospel as pointed by scripture and what its purpose was designed for. It is of no good with out the faith one must believe the cross before submitting to it is of value. The gospel is the cross and that is where baptism is also.The water does nothing it is the faith that God does as He said when we submit.They transforming work as described in Romans 6Is done only by God.

But as it was put in Mark

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

One has to believe and be baptized to be saved with out belief in the cross it is lost there only way any of salvation works is through belief in the cross. So he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Why baptized because of the proof of what baptism is designed to do as show in the word.

Therefore the born of water and the spirit is a direct note to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #187 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 12:36:02 »
John 4 with the lady at the well, must really be talking about a baptistry since it mentions water.

Some folks have water on the brain.
 ::preachit::

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #188 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 12:46:22 »
Good post, Yogi

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #189 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 12:46:52 »
John 4 with the lady at the well, must really be talking about a baptistry since it mentions water.

Some folks have water on the brain.
 ::preachit::

Borderline crude and totally unnecessary !

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #190 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 12:50:10 »
If it is stated one must be born of the water and the Spirit, then yes. Or it could mean one must be born of a woman and the Spirit!
 ::lookaround::

Maybe Jesus meant in Mark 16:16, he that believes and is born of a woman shall be saved.
 ::pondering::

Coul Peter have meant, repent and be born of a woman for remission of sin and the gift of the Holy spirit. The possibilities are endless if the obvious is overlooked.
« Last Edit: Sun May 14, 2017 - 13:02:47 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #191 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 13:57:12 »
I have presented my view with scripture upon scripture verifying it as biblical facts.If you see error in what I have presented then please show the scriptures that prove that I have read and misapplied scripture. The way it stands I can not see where what I have provided is not what the scriptures teach on the subject but if I am in error please in Gods name point out my misunderstanding using His word to do so. If I am not in error the Please in Gods name lets stand together and teach this the way God has laid it out.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #192 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 14:15:26 »
Therefore the born of water and the spirit is a direct note to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Just read your article and I'm going to do something that you never attempted to do with my post....answer your post in the morning. You know Yogi, presenting what we think is the truth is only HALF doing our job, we also must defend the same against our opponents position and what they present as truth, and THEN compare the two together!  You have some serious holes in your position that we shall consider.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #193 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 14:24:24 »
In all due respect Red my article as you call it was in answer to all that have posted here on this subject and your saying it is not does not change the fact that it was intended to do so.Your statement " I'm going to do something that you never attempted to do with my post....answer your post" is out of line and not correct on my behalf because I did post an answer to you as well as all others I just did not single you out is that what is wrong I should have singled you out.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #194 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 14:39:26 »
John the Baptist was not born again.  Born again, Rebirth, Regeneration is strictly a New Covenant gift.  That you do not understand that is why so much of what you wrote in the previous post is in error.
The burden of proof are on your shoulders, for God's testimony said that he was FULL of the Holy Ghost, EVEN from his mother's womb~which according to Yogi and you and your comrades, can only be true AFTER Pentecost and AFTER water baptism! The scriptures are ONE cohesive whole teaching ONE cohesive truth concerning being born of the Spirit, and ALL of the children of God's promises of grace are born in the SAME MANNER AS ISSAC, per Paul from Galatians four. UNLESS your doctrine of Soteriology is some way very comparable to the manner of ISAAC'S BIRTH, then it is false doctrine.  Again:
Quote
Galatians 4:22-31~"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Your Soteriology is AFTER the flesh, man having a very active part in his salvation. Isaac was born after the Spirit~ it is true that Isaac's birth could ONLY had been by the Spirit's power, according to God's promise to Abraham for Sarah's womb was PAST DEAD! Neither you or Yogi can fit your doctrine of  Soteriology into Galatians four concerning Isaac, only with Ismael!

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #195 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 14:57:08 »
The burden of proof are on your shoulders, for God's testimony said that he was FULL of the Holy Ghost, EVEN from his mother's womb~which according to Yogi and you and your comrades, can only be true AFTER Pentecost and AFTER water baptism!
I realized this is in response to 4WD but being you named me in this I will respond on my behalf and let 4WD respond on his own.
Red you are missing a valuable point in your assumption here. You are missing the difference in the working of the spirit. The spirit worked through many before the day of Pentecost but was not indwelling any until after Christ went to the cross that is spelled out in scripture. The spirit came upon many and worked through them including a donkey but did not indwell. The promise of indwelling was after the cross after Christ was glorified after Christ wen away so as to send the spirit in His place. The fruits of the spirit is different that the works of the spirit you need to study the difference in the spirit upon and within because you aree missing some biblical facts that could really help you better understand what the word is saying.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #196 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 15:10:05 »
RB, from the time they can breathe the Church of Christ folk are indoctrinated about water baptism as being the pathway to salvation.   I grew up in the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Restoration Movement (Stone-Campbell), and water baptism, which, in fact, is a memorial to be identified with Jesus Christ, is taught as the primary doctrine.  As Alexander Campbell said, "immersion is the gospel in water."  And they are taught that the baptismal water has become the blood of Jesus.  That's another of Alexander Campbell's teachings.  Commonly they will say that one comes in contact with the blood when under the baptismal waters.   I remember a Church of Christ asking, at another Church of Christ forum, if he could still be saved if he had a toe sticking out of the baptismal water.  As we can see as evidenced in this thread and any thread about baptism, they get more excited about baptism than anything else.  The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ and the central theme is redemption.   Redemption was His own work.  Legalistic groups always point the "things" they do as proof of their salvation, but Paul said that the witness of the Holy Spirit was proof of one's salvation.   

While growing up I rarely heard a sermon not based in New Testament Scripture.  Along with that I rarely heard anything about prophecy or anything from the Old Testament beyond the Psalms or Proverbs.    I was introduced to more of the Bible by a Dispensational elder who was a rarity in the Churches of Christ.   If not for him I may have remained water logged and not have become interested in learning about the majority of the Bible.   

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #197 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 15:19:13 »
Our reliance on scriptures about baptism has definitely inspired a hydrophobix response unfortunately. Water is not the gospel, but God has spoken about what he expects about baptism and What HE DOES IN BAPTISM. If someone relies only on getting wet, then obviously that is wrong majorly wrong and not happening here. No more than saying people that confess with their lips that Christ is Lord have a lip fetish. I condemn the dunk and done folks. They are not arguing here, so let's get some perspective. Salvation IS way more than water. No doubt about it. Over emphasis has happened and as a result this hydrophobic counter measure has evolved. The counter measure causes friction that would have long gone away on its own. I have no problem discussing salvation without mentioning baptism, but I will not allow a statement such as, "baptism has nothing to do with salvation," go by withiout challenge. Baptism is NOT the most important thing in salvation, but it is NOT non-existent to the topic. Being IN Christ IS important. We are baptized into Christ via baptism in Christ's name. A dunking booth at the fair is not that. That water as with ALL WATER HAS NO POWER. The power in baptism is only what God accomplishes.
« Last Edit: Sun May 14, 2017 - 16:22:42 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #198 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 17:18:46 »
RB, from the time they can breathe the Church of Christ folk are indoctrinated about water baptism as being the pathway to salvation.   I grew up in the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Restoration Movement (Stone-Campbell), and water baptism, which, in fact, is a memorial to be identified with Jesus Christ, is taught as the primary doctrine.  As Alexander Campbell said, "immersion is the gospel in water."  And they are taught that the baptismal water has become the blood of Jesus.  That's another of Alexander Campbell's teachings.  Commonly they will say that one comes in contact with the blood when under the baptismal waters.   I remember a Church of Christ asking, at another Church of Christ forum, if he could still be saved if he had a toe sticking out of the baptismal water.  As we can see as evidenced in this thread and any thread about baptism, they get more excited about baptism than anything else.  The Bible's central figure is Jesus Christ and the central theme is redemption.   Redemption was His own work.  Legalistic groups always point the "things" they do as proof of their salvation, but Paul said that the witness of the Holy Spirit was proof of one's salvation.   

While growing up I rarely heard a sermon not based in New Testament Scripture.  Along with that I rarely heard anything about prophecy or anything from the Old Testament beyond the Psalms or Proverbs.    I was introduced to more of the Bible by a Dispensational elder who was a rarity in the Churches of Christ.   If not for him I may have remained water logged and not have become interested in learning about the majority of the Bible.
As I have already said I have presented my view with scripture upon scripture verifying it as biblical facts.If you see error in what I have presented then please show the scriptures that prove that I have read and misapplied scripture. The way it stands I can not see where what I have provided is not what the scriptures teach on the subject but if I am in error please in Gods name point out my misunderstanding using His word to do so. If I am not in error the Please in Gods name lets stand together and teach this the way God has laid it out.

Yes I have been taught as a child from the church of Christ but they point to scripture as proof as to their teaching. I have laid it from the time baptism came into view beginning at the introduction of John and followed the teaching from the word through Acts and beyond. If I or they as you want to make it a Church of Christ doctrine rather than a biblical teaching has misunderstood then by all means please point out the scriptures that prove baptism in Christ name is not a water baptism for the remission of sin and giving of the indwelling spirit. I am open for correct but you have yet to show me my error in reading the passages that pertain to this topic.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #199 on: Sun May 14, 2017 - 19:51:49 »
The burden of proof are on your shoulders, for God's testimony said that he was FULL of the Holy Ghost, EVEN from his mother's womb~which according to Yogi and you and your comrades, can only be true AFTER Pentecost and AFTER water baptism!
I realized this is in response to 4WD but being you named me in this I will respond on my behalf and let 4WD respond on his own.
Red you are missing a valuable point in your assumption here. You are missing the difference in the working of the spirit. The spirit worked through many before the day of Pentecost but was not indwelling any until after Christ went to the cross that is spelled out in scripture. The spirit came upon many and worked through them including a donkey but did not indwell. The promise of indwelling was after the cross after Christ was glorified after Christ wen away so as to send the spirit in His place. The fruits of the spirit is different that the works of the spirit you need to study the difference in the spirit upon and within because you aree missing some biblical facts that could really help you better understand what the word is saying.

::thumbup::::thumbup::

Right on, Yogi.  There seems to be a wide spread misunderstanding about the difference between the empowering Holy Spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit.  RB is not alone in that misunderstanding.  The empowering Spirit was not uncommon throughout the OT and in some cases, as you noted, involved not only unbelievers but even a donkey.  And as such it must be recognized that the empowering Holy Spirit was not an element of salvation in any sense. 

What is even more confounding here is that you think that we, me, Yogi and our comrades think that "can only be true AFTER Pentecost and AFTER water baptism".  Nothing could be further from the truth.  In fact on several occasions I have noted the similarity of the events described in Acts 2:4 ff and in Numbers 11:25, noting specifically the difference between the coming upon or the being filled with the Holy Spirit and the baptism with or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Clearly the Holy Spirit came upon many before Pentecost for the purpose of empowering special abilities, either miraculous or otherwise.  None was a measure of or an indication of the status of the involved person's salvation.

Now I have no doubt whatsoever that John the Baptist was saved.  Jesus' own comments about John would strongly indicate that he was.  But that was not related in any way to his being filled with the Holy Spirit.  Consider the following:

And He *summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;....
 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them. (Mark 6:7,13)


Now we know that such miracles can only be accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit; that is, the Holy Spirit was upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit to accomplish such miracles.  We know also that Judas was one of the twelve and so it seems apparent that he too was filled as were the other eleven to accomplish such miracles. If that were not the case it would have been obvious to everyone around him.  Yet Jesus notes that he was "a devil" (John 6:70) and called him the "son of perdition" (John 17:12).

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #200 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 04:38:09 »
RB, from the time they can breathe the Church of Christ folk are indoctrinated about water baptism as being the pathway to salvation.
They are not alone~ I too believe that it is a pathway to salvation, just not being born again but for practical use ONLY! Per Mark 16:16. I went to bed sick still not feeling well and slept late (for me) this morning and on top of that have some meetings early this morning, one of them fifty miles away~so I most likely will not post much until I read carefully all post and then I will. Actually looking forward to this discussion especially since Yogi believes
Quote
Red you are missing a valuable point in your assumption here. You are missing the difference in the working of the spirit. The spirit worked through many before the day of Pentecost but was not indwelling any until after Christ went to the cross that is spelled out in scripture.
I always cover my bases before I speak and have already prepared myself for their counter arguments....I was not born yesterday, and I'm not a beginner in such debates. But later....RB
« Last Edit: Mon May 15, 2017 - 16:39:56 by RB »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #201 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 05:12:54 »
...
 There seems to be a wide spread misunderstanding about the difference between the empowering Holy Spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit.  RB is not alone in that misunderstanding.  The empowering Spirit was not uncommon throughout the OT and in some cases, as you noted, involved not only unbelievers but even a donkey.  And as such it must be recognized that the empowering Holy Spirit was not an element of salvation in any sense. 

What is even more confounding here is that you think that we, me, Yogi and our comrades think that "can only be true AFTER Pentecost and AFTER water baptism".  Nothing could be further from the truth.  In fact on several occasions I have noted the similarity of the events described in Acts 2:4 ff and in Numbers 11:25, noting specifically the difference between the coming upon or the being filled with the Holy Spirit and the baptism with or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Clearly the Holy Spirit came upon many before Pentecost for the purpose of empowering special abilities, either miraculous or otherwise.  None was a measure of or an indication of the status of the involved person's salvation.
...

The problem is that the NT texts do not support a clear and sharp distinction between being born of the Spirit, baptized in the Spirit, and having the Spirit and power come "upon" one.

The Gospels present "baptism in the Spirit" as a superior successor to Jewish proselyte water baptism, hence a conversion event.  But in all four cases, Jesus began His public ministry, and did His first demonstrations of power, soon after His baptism and John's teaching about baptism in the Spirit.

1 Cor. 12 shows baptism in the Spirit to refer to that work of the Spirit which places people into the body of Christ, i.e. conversion; but the immediate subsequent context is all about the powers the Spirit gives.

Acts 1 links the empowering "coming upon" of the Spirit to "baptism in the Spirit."  This may be the only place where that connection is made so directly, as well as the only place where conversion is not implied.

Acts 10 together with the retelling in Acts 11 suggests that "baptism in the Spirit" relates to both conversion and the prophetic empowering to speak in new languages.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #202 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 07:06:34 »
The problem is that the NT texts do not support a clear and sharp distinction between being born of the Spirit, baptized in the Spirit, and having the Spirit and power come "upon" one.
I believe that the NT texts do support a clear and sharp distinction between being born of the Spirit and having the Spirit come upon one in power.  I would agree that the distinction with respect to baptism in the Holy Spirit is less pronounced.  However I believe that the case can be made that baptism in the Holy Spirit is one and the same as the gift of the Holy Spirit presented in Acts 2:38.
Quote
The Gospels present "baptism in the Spirit" as a superior successor to Jewish proselyte water baptism, hence a conversion event.  But in all four cases, Jesus began His public ministry, and did His first demonstrations of power, soon after His baptism and John's teaching about baptism in the Spirit.
The problem with that view is that the baptism of John was not a Jewish proselyte water baptism.  The baptism of repentance for the remission of sin was entirely new to the Jew and not something of the old covenant at all.
Quote
1 Cor. 12 shows baptism in the Spirit to refer to that work of the Spirit which places people into the body of Christ, i.e. conversion; but the immediate subsequent context is all about the powers the Spirit gives.
The gifts of the Spirit discussed in 1 Corinthians 12 include both ordinary and miraculous gifts as well as both ordinary and miraculous endowment by the Spirit.  Thus, for example, the gift of wisdom may be ordinarily endowed or be miraculously endowed, even though wisdom itself is not a miraculous attribute.   
Quote
Acts 1 links the empowering "coming upon" of the Spirit to "baptism in the Spirit."  This may be the only place where that connection is made so directly, as well as the only place where conversion is not implied.
I would argue that is not the case at all.  I believe that Acts 1:4 and Acts 1:8 present two separate prophecies by Jesus to his apostles given at different times, perhaps days apart.  I believe that Acts 1:4 refers to the events of Acts 2:38 while Acts 1:8 refers to the events of Acts 2:4.
Quote
Acts 10 together with the retelling in Acts 11 suggests that "baptism in the Spirit" relates to both conversion and the prophetic empowering to speak in new languages.
I believe that you are misreading Acts 10 and the retelling in Acts 11.

I would be happy to provide you with my own analysis of this subject, but I feel it is too long to present in a forum such as this.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #203 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 08:31:32 »
It probably would be most appropriate here 4WD, since every baptism discussion eventually involves Acts 10. 
« Last Edit: Mon May 15, 2017 - 09:57:55 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #204 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 09:50:47 »
4WD I think it would benefit us all and would like to see it as well if you think it be to long maybe you could break it up in a few smaller post.
 

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #205 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 13:52:41 »
The theme of the four gospels is the coming of the Kingdom in fulfillment of the OT prophecies. All of the Jewish people were expecting it to happen even before Jesus appeared. In Luke it is said they thought perhaps John the Baptist was the Messiah who would establish the Kingdom. And when the Kingdom did come the Spirit would be poured out on the people to change their hearts and cause them to keep the commandments of God. That is what Jesus is discussing with Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus was not abruptly changing the subject when he said,"No one can see the kingdom unless he is born again." He was implying that he, the one doing the miracles, was the Messiah who would establish the Kingdom.

That is the context for interpreting John 3:5. Where is being born again by water and Spirit plainly foretold in the OT? Ezekiel 36:24-30. What is water in this passage and several other OT prophecies and in several statements of Jesus? It symbolizes the Spirit. You mean water means the Spirit and the Spirit means the Spirit? Exactly. Just like the flag means the republic and the republic means the republic for which it stands.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #206 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 14:44:39 »
Norton I appreciate your research and well thought out response. I had never noticed that parallel verse in the OT. My question to you is, How does this relate to the promised gift of the Spirit Peter promised the 3000 upon repentance and baptism. These folks never exhibited the "Spirit upon" manifestations that those at Pentecost did, but the assumption is that they received the indwelling gift of the Spirit, that I believe I received upon repentance and baptism.

I think Red (RB) will argue that the 3000 received the gift when they were pricked in their hearts. I contend that IS the Spirit acting in us, but to bring Godly sorrow that LEADs to repentance, and repentance leads to salvation. The indwelling Spirit comes later, I believe. I'm open for discussion.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
« Last Edit: Mon May 15, 2017 - 14:50:16 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #207 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 15:03:27 »
The theme of the four gospels is the coming of the Kingdom in fulfillment of the OT prophecies. All of the Jewish people were expecting it to happen even before Jesus appeared. In Luke it is said they thought perhaps John the Baptist was the Messiah who would establish the Kingdom. And when the Kingdom did come the Spirit would be poured out on the people to change their hearts and cause them to keep the commandments of God. That is what Jesus is discussing with Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus was not abruptly changing the subject when he said,"No one can see the kingdom unless he is born again." He was implying that he, the one doing the miracles, was the Messiah who would establish the Kingdom.

That is the context for interpreting John 3:5. Where is being born again by water and Spirit plainly foretold in the OT? Ezekiel 36:24-30. What is water in this passage and several other OT prophecies and in several statements of Jesus? It symbolizes the Spirit. You mean water means the Spirit and the Spirit means the Spirit? Exactly. Just like the flag means the republic and the republic means the republic for which it stands.

That is my understanding.  I am not dismissing baptism like some allege here, but I don't believe John 3 has anything to do with water baptism for a believer in Christ just because it mentions water.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #208 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 15:05:20 »
I think Red (RB) will argue that the 3000 received the gift when they were pricked in their hearts. I contend that IS the Spirit acting in us, but to bring Godly sorrow that LEADs to repentance, and repentance leads to salvation. The indwelling Spirit comes later, I believe. I'm open for discussion.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Why parse such things?  In the grand scheme of things, they were pricked in their hearts, believed, and were immediately baptized.

Offline Jaime

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #209 on: Mon May 15, 2017 - 15:26:16 »
I agree. I have just had the discussion with Red that the pricking of their hearts was the indwelling spirit. I don't believe it was. The indwelling gift in my opinion was what they received as Peter promised when they repented and were baptized. The pricking of their heart LEAD them to repentance. Red and others contend that the 3000 repented and were baptized BECAUSE they were saved. I believe Peter told them to repent and be baptized FOR or in order to receive the Holy Spirit and remission of sins.

You hit on the issue in my view and that is in the first century baptism was always immediate. The delay that we see in modern times of months or even years is foreign to scripture and resulted in the interminable discussions we have today on the subject.  And I freely admit that the cofc's over emphasis on the dunking part of the process equally caused friction. The cofc in the past has undoubtedly overemphasized water in the message of the Gospel. As I have said on this thread, the dunk and done paradigm of the old cofc is without doubt wrong. And I think the pendulum reaction of some other groups today is equally wrong in even being baptized in the same year for fear of being like those cofc-ers. We in the cofc created the pendulum reaction, but I am quite certain I could totally avoid speaking of baptism, IF it could be agreed that baptism has something to do with salvation. I admit it is NOT the be all and end all of the gospel.  But it was important to be immediately baptized in the pattern we see in scripture. If it was the pattern throughout Christianity for immediate baptism as it is possible, there would be no reason for this debate. If someone is killed on the way to being baptized, I don't fret about it, because that situation is in God's hands. I have some relatives where that would be a huge deal. They are wrong.

To me, John's baptism, was a rebirth in a sense because it was a baptism for forgiveness of sin. A starting anew if you will in water. It seems to me Jesus was saying to Nick, being spiritually reborn is over and above what is done in John's baptism (especially considering the context before and after this passage). The Holy Spirit is involved or given as an indwelling gift. We are a new spiritual creature, not just a wet forgiven creature.

I never have bought the amniotic fluid explanation or being born of a woman as a requirement. Now Norton's reference to the OT scripture does make sense and it's something I have missed up until now.

NOTE: I hope everyone takes my comments here in the spirit in which I intended to offer them. I really really don't want to be taken here as the smart aleck I am sometimes or even usually.
« Last Edit: Mon May 15, 2017 - 15:53:38 by Jaime »

 

     
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