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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #525 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 21:41:18 »
Kenneth Sublett -  Sorry, I don’t mean to pile on, but I’ve got to agree with soterion and e.r.m. on this point.  You are giving a classic argument from silence when you claim that Philip and the eunuch were alone at this baptism.  We aren’t given information on this directly, one way or another. 

But we do know that the Ethiopian eunuch was of “great authority under Candace , queen of the Ethiopians who had the charge of ALL HER TREASURE.”  (Acts 8:27).  Do you really think this government official of “great authority “ in possession of such confidential financial information would be traveling by himself on such a lengthy journey to a neighboring country?  This man would have been a prime candidate for kidnapping and ransom if he had been traveling unaccompanied by a guard or official escort of some kind. 

And who was the eunuch reading out loud to?  Himself?  More than likely he was reading Isaiah out loud to someone or a group with him, who would then have been witness to his baptism.  We don’t know for certain, but plain reason favors the idea that the eunuch was not alone.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 22:21:38 by 3 Resurrections »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #525 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 21:41:18 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #526 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 22:48:58 »
e.r.m. and soterion  -  I have no problem with the elephant in the middle of the room.  Here’s my take on that I Peter 3:21 verse. 

Everyone presumes this is believer’s baptism being spoken about here.  What if it’s not?  What if this is CHRIST’S baptism under discussion?  Here’s the whole sentence with the parenthetical material removed, for clarity’s sake. 

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (......), by the resurrection of Christ: who is now gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.” 

Christ and His baptism, resurrection, and exultation are the prevailing theme of these verses.  We aren’t talking about His baptism in the Jordan, however.  I believe we are looking at His BAPTISM OF SUFFERING that took place at His death.  Look at Luke 12:49-50.  Christ was speaking to His disciples, and said, “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?  But I HAVE A *BAPTISM* TO BE BAPTIZED WITH, and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!” 

With full foreknowledge of His approaching suffering and death, Christ called it a BAPTISM that He was yet to go through.  Christ’s baptism of suffering is what saves all of us believers, “by the resurrection of Christ.”  This interpretation keeps the entire I Peter 3:22-22 verses in proper context, without introducing something alien to the text, such as the false concept of personal salvation achieved by dunking in water.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #526 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 22:48:58 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #527 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:00:22 »
Kenneth Sublett,
Also good points. I know I'm just speculating now, for fun mostly. But in that picture that you present, that would mean that the Ethiopian eunuch was trying to figure out a scroll and reading it out loud while driving, that would be hard to manage, but I guess he was also driving slowly enough for Philip to be able to catch up to him on foot. But still. Although a witness is not required, I think it fits the picture better than if you was driving it by himself. Although you bring up good points about the amount of room in that Chariot for the three people, and why he didn't preach to the driver. But then again, when the men dug a hole through the guys roof and lowered the paralytic man, Jesus said your sins are forgiven only to the paralytic man. Why didn't he forgive the rest of them? Being there doesn't make a difference to the baptism, I'm just ruminating. :D Along with that, it would make no sense for the Ethiopian to even get baptized, if the purpose was for public confession, because the driver would have seen him become a Christian cuz they're in the same chariot, lol.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:19:08 by e.r.m. »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #527 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:00:22 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #528 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:08:59 »
3 Resurrections,
I will add a couple of last points on the chariot issue, cuz I'm having so much fun with it. It is not generally stated that one would give orders to stop a chariot if one was alone. One would generally just say he stopped the chariot. Athough he could give orders to the horse, that is generally not how it would be phrased. And I do think he was reading to himself. I know people who are always talking aloud, whether they're thinking to themselves aloud, or whether they're reading something. I find it extraordinarily annoying, but people do do that.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 12:16:20 by e.r.m. »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #528 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:08:59 »

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #529 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:18:14 »

Christ and His baptism, resurrection, and exultation are the prevailing theme of these verses.  We aren’t talking about His baptism in the Jordan, however.  I believe we are looking at His BAPTISM OF SUFFERING that took place at His death.  Look at Luke 12:49-50.  Christ was speaking to His disciples, and said, “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?  But I HAVE A *BAPTISM* TO BE BAPTIZED WITH, and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!” 

With full foreknowledge of His approaching suffering and death, Christ called it a BAPTISM that He was yet to go through.  Christ’s baptism of suffering is what saves all of us believers, “by the resurrection of Christ.”  This interpretation keeps the entire I Peter 3:22-22 verses in proper context, without introducing something alien to the text, such as the false concept of personal salvation achieved by dunking in water.

1 Peter 3:20-21.
that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Okay, so Peter writes that the saving of Noah and his family through water was a figure, or a true likeness, of baptism. He also points out that this baptism is an inquiry for a clean conscience toward God. So, Jesus' sufferings are a true likeness to the waters of the flood that saved Noah? Also, Jesus didn't have a clean conscience and thus He asked God for one through this baptism?

Did you notice that one of the things Peter said about this baptism is that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh? This action is typically done with water, not with whips and crucifixes. What Peter is pointing out is that the baptism in water, which is after the likeness of the waters of the flood, does not save by washing the flesh of dirt, but saves by putting one's faith in God for a clean conscience. That is what baptism is, faith in the power or working of God (Colossians 2:11-12).

If this baptism, this immersion, was not in water, then Peter would not have pointed out that its purpose was not the washing of the flesh of its filth. He is just pointing out that this baptism is not a bath. That water is the physical medium here cannot be contextually or logically denied.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #529 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:18:14 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #530 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:25:41 »
3 Resurrections,
1 Peter 3:21, fair enough and worthy of consideration. After considering it, it conflicts with the faith aspect you mentioned earlier. If Christ suffering is what saves us, then it was done before anyone even came to faith, and therefore faith is no longer a requirement.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #530 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:25:41 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #531 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:28:48 »
soterion,
Good points.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #532 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 23:34:19 »
3 Resurrections,
Further thought
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes Christ's sufferings that now saves you also (...) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Chewing on that, Seems a little redundant to mention Christ twice in this way.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 00:04:43 by e.r.m. »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #533 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:22:46 »
Quote
3 Resurrections,
Further thought
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes Christ's sufferings that now saves you also (...) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


TRUTH:
1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,
        that he might bring us to God,
        being put to death in the flesh,
         but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient,
         when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
        while the ark was a preparing, wherein few,
        that is, EIGHT SOULS WERE SAVED BY WATER

The Ark is not defined as a ship but a COFFIN. It was covered inside and outside by blood-red bitumen.
God shut the people INSIDE under the "mercy seat"
While they were saved BY WATER which was God's Instrumental means, Those OUTSIDE were DROWNED.
God opened the "coffin" and the people were raised to a new world and life.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
         (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
         but the answer of [REQUEST FOR] A good conscience toward God,)
         BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Our good conscience or Conscience is parallel to God's giving US A holy spirit which gives the obedient the power to read BLACK text on BROWN paper.

The Ark and the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is a type or TUPOS which is a PATTERN INTENDED TO BE OBEYED.
Those who OBEYED that Form is ANTI-TUPOS.  Our baptism is pure grace because we do not HAVE to be crucified for our own sins in vain.  Remission of Sins is ONLY by obeying and following the pattern of Jesus by which God SANCTIFIED Him and sent Him out into the world.

2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,
        what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?



« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:26:22 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #533 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:22:46 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #534 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 11:02:31 »
Quote
Did you notice that one of the things Peter said about this baptism is that it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh? This action is typically done with water, not with whips and crucifixes. What Peter is pointing out is that the baptism in water, which is after the likeness of the waters of the flood, does not save by washing the flesh of dirt, but saves by putting one's faith in God FOR a clean conscience. That is what baptism is, faith in the power or working of God (Colossians 2:11-12).


Peter said that Private Interpretation of the perfected work of Christ is FURTHER EXPOUNDING and is despising the SPIRIT OF GOD Who spoke through the Prophets and certified those prophecies "concerning me" as the ONLY teaching resource.  Despising the Word or Further Expounding or "selling at retail" is defined as blasphemy.

Here is what Paul was saying and NOT despising the Water which was prophecied and fulfilled and commanded by Jesus.

Heb. 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,
        that the WAY into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest,
        while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure [TUPOS] for the time then present,
         in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
         that could not make him that did the service PERFECT, as pertaining to the CONSCIENCE;

BAPTISM NOW SAVES US because We can REQUEST A holy spirit or A good conscience BASED on the Work of Jesus Christ.
Paul is OBSOLETING the WASHINGS or baptisms which COULD NOT purge our conscience SO THAT we can serve God. He is proving that by the sacrifice of Jesus HIS BAPTISM CAN give us A holy spirit or A good conscience.

Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks,
        and divers washings, and carnal ordinances,
        Imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb. 9:11 BUT Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
        by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,
        not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves,
        but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
        having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats,
        and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean,
        sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ,
        who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
        PURGE your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

HOW DOES ONE PURGE OUR CONSCIENCE IN ORDER TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO SAVE US
        (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
        but the answer [REQUEST FOR] of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jewish Ceremonial WASHINGS (baptism) COULD NOT make the conscience clean or our spirits HOLY.
The Sacrifice of Jesus is a TUPOS or "Pattern INTENDED to be imitated."
Obeying that pattern by baptism is the WAY prophesied (Isaiah 1) and fulfilled and COMMANDED to REQUEST that God PURGE our conscience
Those who believeth not or COMPLY NOT will be DAMNED.

Galatians 3 we are SAVED BY FAITH because when were are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST we are CLOTHED or COVERED by Christ as the ONLY WAY TO COME BOLDLY BEFORE THE THRONE OF GRACE.

The OLD ENGLISH ANSWER always means REQUEST.  The NIV translates the word 53 times meaning to REQUEST and only one time as PLEDGE. We are baptized THEY CONTEND that we HAVE A holy spirit or A good conscience BEFORE we are baptized which is just our GUARANTEEING that we will BE PURE.

Baptism is a REQUEST that God give US A holy spirit or A good conscience.  That includes becoming a CO-PERCEPTOR of the Word.  That does not mean that you can go to LU and learn how to use your IMAGINATION or hear A holy spirit but being converted or baptized in 2 Corinthians 3 gives one the GIFT of being able to READ the text or HEAR the text if and when it is PREACHED by being READ in the synagogue or ekklesia ONCE EACH WEEK free of charge.

g1905 Eperotao





Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #535 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 12:22:31 »
Quote
Kenneth Sublett -  Sorry, I don’t mean to pile on, but I’ve got to agree with soterion and e.r.m. on this point.  You are giving a classic argument from silence when you claim that Philip and the eunuch were alone at this baptism.  We aren’t given information on this directly, one way or another.

I am used to pile ons. I suspect that the eunuch was in a row of Ethiopian Jews along the way.  If he was in a wagon with a dozen that's ok but I question whether a witness besides God and Jesus in His Spirit form are required  After all baptism is REQUESTING Jesus to enter into His School even as Aaron the Master Tent Maker would not accept an apprentice without his asking and the master baptizing him, adopting, him, giving him a new name and clothing. Proselyte baptism took the same form but Peter says that based on the blood of Jesus baptized in His name or calling on His name is effective on thesprit.

After all Solomon's Ethiopian son went on earlier with the Ark of the Covenant on his Flying Rug.


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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #536 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 12:45:11 »
Kenneth Sublett,
Quote
After all Solomon's Ethiopian son went on earlier with the Ark of the Covenant on his Flying Rug.
Huh?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #537 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 13:09:21 »
The Kebra Nagast

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/index.htm


116. Concerning the Chariot of ETHIOPIA

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn116.htm

   And the Archbishops answered and said unto GREGORY, the Worker of Wonders, "Behold now, thou hast told us concerning the vanquisher of the enemy of RÔMÊ, and now [tell us] of the chariot of ETHIOPIA and whether it shall remain henceforward, to the Coming of CHRIST, as thou hast told us concerning ZION, and concerning the faith of the people of ETHIOPIA, and likewise if their chariot shall remain." And GREGORY said unto them, "It shall assuredly not disappear. And again, hearken ye unto me and I will declare this unto you: A few JEWS shall lift up their heads against our faith in NÂGRÂN and in ARMENIA in the days after this, and this God will do by His Will so that He may destroy them, for ARMENIA is a territory of RÔMÊ and NÂGRÂN is a territory of ETHIOPIA."
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 13:16:43 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #538 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 01:47:10 »
soterion  -  Let’s see if I can address some of your counterpoints.  First, I would pose a bit of a different take on Peter’s phrase “the filth of the flesh”.  Again, the typical interpretation, (which you are sharing), is that this speaks of accumulated dirt on the body from not bathing.  I believe Peter was thinking more along the lines of II Cor. 7:1: “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL FILTHINESS OF THE FLESH AND SPIRIT, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

This speaks of ongoing, daily SANCTIFICATION, which is the duty of all Christian saints who have been given the continual presence of the Holy Spirit’s aid in this endeavor.  I John 3:3 gives the same witness.  “And every man that hath this hope in him PURIFIETH HIMSELF, even as He is pure.” 

How does this idea of continual sanctification enter the discussion of I Peter 3:21-22?  This brief commentary below is how I understand this theme of sanctification fits in the context of these verses.  Much of the flow of thought in this I Peter 3 chapter deals with the Christian’s labor of sanctification towards the world and fellow believers.  If we have played our part responsibly in “following that which is good “ (v. 13), we can be “having a good conscience” (v. 16 and 21), even if the world makes us “suffer for righteousness’ sake” (v. 14). 

If we do end up suffering for it, we are only sharing in what Christ once suffered for us (v. 18).  He suffered to the point of being “put to death in the flesh “ in order to “bring us to God”.

Just as Noah’s deluge drowned the members of a sinful world and buried everything in a watery grave except 8 souls (v. 30), in the same figure, Christ was overwhelmed by the weight of sin laid on Him at His crucifixion and death.  The waves of imputed sin drowned His last victorious shout of “It is finished” as death engulfed Him for 3 days and 3 nights. 

It is THIS BAPTISM of Christ’s suffering and death that now saves us, NOT our own daily efforts of “putting away the filth of the flesh”.  Our own efforts, (even though they are our Christian duty), are NOT what saves us.  It is the symbolic figure of Christ’s baptism realized in His suffering and death, and especially His resurrection, that provides the means of our salvation. His baptism is ultimately the foundation that gives us our “good conscience towards God”. 

Also, Peter uses the present tense when he says that this baptism SAVES US - a present and ongoing reality, and not just a completed past action.  Otherwise, he would have said that it HAS SAVED US.  Christ’s baptism of suffering and death, followed by His resurrection, continues to provide access to God’s throne for our daily confession, repentance, and practical salvation from sin while we are still in this body of corruptible flesh.

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #539 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 03:50:29 »
After a couple years since visiting this post, there’s a slight alteration I would like to make to my original comments on this verse in light of a new understanding of the Greek. 

In this John 3:5 context, Christ was correcting Nicodemus’ error. As a member of the Sanhedrin, Nicodemus was laboring under the delusion that being naturally born as an ethnic Israelite automatically entitled him and any other Israelite to a position in God’s family. 

The typical interpretation of John 3:5 (that I once shared) is that Christ’s requirement for being born of water AND of the Spirit are TWO separate things, with the word “AND” meaning “in addition to “.   This is one possible meaning for the word “AND” (kai) in Greek, but “kai” also has several other meanings.  It can also be used in an explanatory sense, meaning “namely”, or “even”, or “that is”, or “in other words”.

Here are a couple examples of this use of the word “kai” in scripture:  Ephesians 1:3, “Blessed be the God AND (kai) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”  God is here equated with being the Father of our Lord Jesus - it’s not speaking of two separate identities. 

Galatians 6:16 is another: “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, AND (kai) upon the Israel of God.”  The Israel of God here is the same as the group that Paul is blessing with peace - it’s not two separate groups. 

So, this phrase in John 3:5 can be understood in the following manner according to the Greek grammar: “...Except a man be born of water, even the Spirit” (or “namely, the Spirit”), “he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”  “Water” is just a symbolic name for the Spirit here.  This is why verse 8 in this text does not include Christ making any further mention of being born of water, since being born of water IS the same as being born of the Spirit.

This idea of water and the Spirit being the same thing is verified by Christ’s words in John 7:38-39: “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER. (But this spake He of THE SPIRIT, which they that believe on Him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”. Here, the Spirit is presented as being the equivalent of living water.

Conclusion:  Being “born of water, and (even) the Spirit”  is a symbolic way of saying that the person has had the inexhaustible source of the living water of the Spirit put within them.  John 3:5 should NOT be interpreted as an additional stipulation that a physical, baptismal dunking is also necessary to achieve salvation.


I think I mentioned some things along these lines here in this thread, about thirteen and a half months ago.   ::whistle::

Weird to think this thread is still active.

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #540 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 08:47:55 »
soterion  -  Let’s see if I can address some of your counterpoints.  First, I would pose a bit of a different take on Peter’s phrase “the filth of the flesh”.  Again, the typical interpretation, (which you are sharing), is that this speaks of accumulated dirt on the body from not bathing.  I believe Peter was thinking more along the lines of II Cor. 7:1: “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us CLEANSE OURSELVES FROM ALL FILTHINESS OF THE FLESH AND SPIRIT, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

This speaks of ongoing, daily SANCTIFICATION, which is the duty of all Christian saints who have been given the continual presence of the Holy Spirit’s aid in this endeavor.  I John 3:3 gives the same witness.  “And every man that hath this hope in him PURIFIETH HIMSELF, even as He is pure.” 

How does this idea of continual sanctification enter the discussion of I Peter 3:21-22?  This brief commentary below is how I understand this theme of sanctification fits in the context of these verses.  Much of the flow of thought in this I Peter 3 chapter deals with the Christian’s labor of sanctification towards the world and fellow believers.  If we have played our part responsibly in “following that which is good “ (v. 13), we can be “having a good conscience” (v. 16 and 21), even if the world makes us “suffer for righteousness’ sake” (v. 14). 

If we do end up suffering for it, we are only sharing in what Christ once suffered for us (v. 18).  He suffered to the point of being “put to death in the flesh “ in order to “bring us to God”.

Just as Noah’s deluge drowned the members of a sinful world and buried everything in a watery grave except 8 souls (v. 30), in the same figure, Christ was overwhelmed by the weight of sin laid on Him at His crucifixion and death.  The waves of imputed sin drowned His last victorious shout of “It is finished” as death engulfed Him for 3 days and 3 nights. 

It is THIS BAPTISM of Christ’s suffering and death that now saves us, NOT our own daily efforts of “putting away the filth of the flesh”.  Our own efforts, (even though they are our Christian duty), are NOT what saves us.  It is the symbolic figure of Christ’s baptism realized in His suffering and death, and especially His resurrection, that provides the means of our salvation. His baptism is ultimately the foundation that gives us our “good conscience towards God”. 

Also, Peter uses the present tense when he says that this baptism SAVES US - a present and ongoing reality, and not just a completed past action.  Otherwise, he would have said that it HAS SAVED US.  Christ’s baptism of suffering and death, followed by His resurrection, continues to provide access to God’s throne for our daily confession, repentance, and practical salvation from sin while we are still in this body of corruptible flesh.

Look at the passage again.

1 Peter 3:20-21.
that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

The phrase, "after a true likeness" refers to saving through water. Again, you are making it out that, when Christ was going through His sufferings, he was asking God for a clean conscience. Of course, Jesus never had anything but a clean conscience, but your interpretation of this passage makes it out to be otherwise. Once more, Noah and family were saved from a sinful world through water, and, after a true likeness to how they were saved, baptism now saves you.

Compare this passage again with Colossians 2:11-12.

in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Both passage put a focus on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul says that a person is buried together with Christ in baptism, and raised together with Him through faith in the power, or working, of God. Baptism is being described as faith in God's power, His working. Going back to 1 Peter, faith is what is being expressed by the person who is seeking from God a clean conscience in baptism.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #541 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 11:27:22 »
1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,
       that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
       while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOW SAVE US
        (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, [Jewish body washings]
        but the REQUEST FOR a good conscience toward God,)
        by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

People who think that they do not even HAVE to Ask permission for Jesus to add us to His Church.

The example of Jesus from the dead gives us the authority to REQUEST a spiritual resurrection. That is the only way to CONFESS our faith that Jesus rose from the dead and promised USE a CLEANSED SPIRIT fit "to be translated into a heavenly kingdom."

Not the Jewish Washings which could not give one A holy Spirit BUT following prophecy and the command of Jesus BAPTISM SAVES because THAT is how Jesus told  the READERS to REQUEST or Ask or CALL ON THE NAME OF JESUS and REQUEST that He adds us to HIS CHURCH.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved;
      but he that believeth [REFUSES TO COMPLY] not shall be DAMNED

IN 1 Corinthians 15 Paul identifies the PROTOS or PROTOTYPE gospel as the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus.
We obey that PROTOTYPE or "pattern intended to be imitated" and Jesus promises US that we can have OUR spirits cleansed and ADDED to the kingdom which for now is the Church over which Jesus is KING.

The Death, Burial and resurrection is a TUPOS which means "A Pattern intended to be Imitated." When we obey a FORM or ANTI-tupos of or INSTEAD of our death THEN we are free from Sin romans 6.

Immersion or DIPPING in Water is the only thing SIMILAR to the death, burial and resurrection which WE can do. Jesus lets us off easy as pure grace by OBEYING something SIMILAR to a literal entombment.

Jesus was sent INTO the World to seek and save Lost Spirits: a Little Flock. Jesus was IN the World but not OF the World and those who HEAR the invitation or will not be OF the World.  Preachers WILL by definition GO out preaching the gospel and then move on: you cannot do enough PROGRAMS or stiff them with staff to save them. HERE is how they are picked out of the masses:

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly RECEIVED his WORD were baptized:
         and the same day there were added unto them [added to the Church by Christ]
         about three thousand souls.

The Word is the Logos which again is the INDENTIFYING MARK of the lambs God sent Jesus to seek and save:
The Word forbids Personal opinions, Personal experiences. Rhetoric, Singing, Playing instruments or Acting.
If Jesus says that  believers WHO ARE BAPTIZED Shall be Saved put a period there.
Not the Jews washing but CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD to WASH AWAY THEY SINS.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise,
        and be baptized,
        and wash away thy sins,
        calling on the name of the Lord.


The Race of Vipers cannot be baptized in WATER and MUST be baptiized with Spirit (WIND] and separated for the baptism of FIRE in the winnowing process.  If you call the Spirit of Christ, Jesus, all of the historic church liars: DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

 

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #542 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 20:25:19 »
soterion  -  Apologies for this delayed response to your comment...

It appears that you are using the ERV or the ASV translation for I Peter 3:21.  You realize, of course, that the word “interrogation” of a good conscience is only one of several translations for the Greek “eperotema”.  Other translations are “a pledge” of a good conscience, a “demand”, a “response”, a “testimony”, an “appeal”, etc. 

Christ is not the one doing the “pledging”, the “demanding”, the “responding”, the “testifying”, or “appealing”.  The subject doing this is the “US” in I Peter 3:21.  The actions of Christ are the means by which the “US” in this verse are able to have that pledge, response, demand,  testimony, or appeal of a good conscience. 

How did you get the impression that I’m saying Christ was asking for a clean conscience?  That’s not at all the sense of this verse as I tried to explain it.

The translation of “eperotema” into the word “answer” or “interrogation” is not a great one.  So say most of the commentaries.  When I review the etymology of this word “eperotema”, I tend to agree with the commentaries that “interrogation” is NOT an accurate sense of this word.  The “US” of I Peter 3:21 are not “SEEKING” to get a clean conscience; they ALREADY HAVE IT in this text, according to I Peter 3:16, and are confidently depending on Christ who gave them that clean conscience by His actions on their behalf. 

Even if we do go with using “interrogation” as the translation of choice, how are you and Kenneth Sublett both able to turn an “interrogation *OF* a good conscience” into a “request *FOR* a good conscience”?  That is two different prepositions altogether, and one can’t be substituted for the other. 

The use of the word “OF” a good conscience shows that the good conscience is already in place -  it’s not being requested at baptism.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #543 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 20:42:25 »
1Pet. 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said He that Believeth (complies) AND is baptized SHALL BE SAVED.
We have the right and the power to REQUEST that we be Saved which includes the REMISSION OF SINS

Answer OF means a REQUEST FOR:



Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #544 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 20:55:28 »
soterion  -  Apologies for this delayed response to your comment...

It appears that you are using the ERV or the ASV translation for I Peter 3:21.  You realize, of course, that the word “interrogation” of a good conscience is only one of several translations for the Greek “eperotema”.  Other translations are “a pledge” of a good conscience, a “demand”, a “response”, a “testimony”, an “appeal”, etc. 

Christ is not the one doing the “pledging”, the “demanding”, the “responding”, the “testifying”, or “appealing”.  The subject doing this is the “US” in I Peter 3:21.  The actions of Christ are the means by which the “US” in this verse are able to have that pledge, response, demand,  testimony, or appeal of a good conscience. 

How did you get the impression that I’m saying Christ was asking for a clean conscience?  That’s not at all the sense of this verse as I tried to explain it.

The translation of “eperotema” into the word “answer” or “interrogation” is not a great one.  So say most of the commentaries.  When I review the etymology of this word “eperotema”, I tend to agree with the commentaries that “interrogation” is NOT an accurate sense of this word.  The “US” of I Peter 3:21 are not “SEEKING” to get a clean conscience; they ALREADY HAVE IT in this text, according to I Peter 3:16, and are confidently depending on Christ who gave them that clean conscience by His actions on their behalf. 


See my Reply #512 on the preceding page. I already dealt with what I found the Greek word επερωτημα means there.

I think the natural sense from reading this passage is that the one receiving the baptism is the one making the inquiry. Again, this baptism is not a bath, but an inquiry toward God for a clean conscience. The parenthetical supplies this information so that we may know what the baptism is and who is subject to this baptism.

As for the use of the ASV, I always use it and then refer to the Greek if I believe the translation is lacking.

Quote

Even if we do go with using “interrogation” as the translation of choice, how are you and Kenneth Sublett both able to turn an “interrogation *OF* a good conscience” into a “request *FOR* a good conscience”?  That is two different prepositions altogether, and one can’t be substituted for the other. 

The use of the word “OF” a good conscience shows that the good conscience is already in place -  it’s not being requested at baptism.

The preposition is not there in the Greek. What is being said in the context has to supply what the translators believe to be the best one to use. Note how the ESV says it:

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Out of curiosity, since you are looking at a number of commentaries, I'll bet most if not all say that this baptism is immersion in water. Why trust them when it comes to the meaning of a word, but not the application of the baptism? ::pondering::

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #545 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 21:03:41 »
Whatever one mumbles it still says what Jesus COMMANDED and PROMISED BAPTISM SAVES YOU

Dr. Charles J. Ellicott observes that this is "an expression which has caused almost as much difficulty as any in the New Testament" [Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible, vol. 8, p. 422].

"As the passage of Israel through the Red Sea is described as a baptism (1 Corinthians 10:2) because it marked their transition from the state of bondage to a new national life, and left their enemies destroyed in the water, so Noe’s safe passage through the Flood is a type of baptism, because it was a regeneration of humanity, it was a destruction of the carnal, sensual element (Genesis 6:3. “he also is flesh”), it washed the human race from its pollutions, and man rose to a new and more spiritual existence for the time being, with the bow for a sign of a perpetual covenant made.

So baptism is a destruction and death to the flesh, but a new life to the spirit. It must be observed how carefully St. Peter expresses the permanent effect of baptism by the present tense “saveth:” not “saved you,” nor “hath saved you;” it is a living and ever present fact, the “everlasting benediction of His heavenly washing;” it washes the neophyte not from past sins ONLY, but from those which he afterwards commits, if only he still repents and believes.

4) There is, however, another version for which a still better case can be made out: viz., “demand.” It is true that the verb eperôtân more frequently means “to ask” a question than “to ask” a boon, expecting a verbal response rather than a practical one; but it is once used in the New Testament in the latter sense (Matthew 16:1), and in the Old Testament also (as Psalms 137:3). And the only other instance of the word eperôtêma in inspired literature makes for this view. This occurs in Daniel 4:17, where the English has “demand,” and the Latin petitio.

Matt. 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Dan. 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


The last seems both the clearest in itself, the best antithesis to the balancing clause, and the most in keeping with the context. It will then be: “Noah’s flood, in antitype, to this day saves you—that is to say, baptism, which is no cleansing of the skin from dirt, but an application to God for a clear conscience.” A “good conscience,” in this case, will not mean an honest frame of mind, but a consciousness of having nothing against you, such as would come to even the chief of sinners from the baptismal remission of sins. “

 “With this,” he says, “you cannot be harmed; with this, you will be always ready to defend the faith when called to account. It was because He had this that Christ was able to atone for you and bring you to God, and to conduct His mission to the dead, and to give by His resurrection an efficacy to your baptism; and that baptism itself only saves you by the fact that in it you ask and receive the cleansing of the conscience


You keep fighting God by insisting that I DO NOT HAVE TO ASK FOR THE FREE GIFT.

What doth trouble thee that thou cannot abide with THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING. The Scribes also rejected God's charge against them be dismissed by BAPTISM: they REJECTED God's counsel or WILL and said in effect, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.  THAT'S OK: ONCE YOU HAVE BLASPHEMED YOU ARE FREE TO REPEAT IT UNTIL YOU FEEL THE HEAD FOR CALLING THE SPIRIT AND JESUS LIARS.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #546 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 22:24:34 »
soterion  -  Peter is writing to the “elect” saints in this book, is he not? (I Peter 1:2). They are already “Having a good conscience”, are they not?  ( I Peter 3:16). Yet Peter is saying that a baptism is “NOW” saving them as he is writing, does he not?  (I Peter 3:21). The Ellicott commentary that Kenneth Sublett included in his comment above makes this very point. 

This means a PRESENT, on-going salvation by a “figurative” baptism was occurring for them as Peter was writing to them.  This precludes the possibility that the baptism mentioned here is discussing these saints’ individual baptisms in water that were done prior to this epistle’s writing. 

I still maintain that the baptism of Christ’s suffering and death for man’s sin, which was compared to Noah’s  literal, watery deluge that punished a sinful world (“I have a baptism to be baptized with...” - Luke 12:50), followed by His resurrection, is the baptism that was “NOW” saving those saints at that time.  It was not their day-to-day efforts of putting away sins of the flesh that was credited as the source of their salvation status.

Christ’s baptism of suffering and death, once for all, and His resurrection are what secured the saints’ salvation - ALL stages of it, from the start until the finished glorification that these saints were anticipating in their very near future ( “now is our salvation nearer than when we believed” - Romans 13:11).

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #547 on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 23:42:21 »
soterion  -  Peter is writing to the “elect” saints in this book, is he not? (I Peter 1:2). They are already “Having a good conscience”, are they not?  ( I Peter 3:16). Yet Peter is saying that a baptism is “NOW” saving them as he is writing, does he not?  (I Peter 3:21). The Ellicott commentary that Kenneth Sublett included in his comment above makes this very point. 

This means a PRESENT, on-going salvation by a “figurative” baptism was occurring for them as Peter was writing to them.  This precludes the possibility that the baptism mentioned here is discussing these saints’ individual baptisms in water that were done prior to this epistle’s writing. 

I still maintain that the baptism of Christ’s suffering and death for man’s sin, which was compared to Noah’s  literal, watery deluge that punished a sinful world (“I have a baptism to be baptized with...” - Luke 12:50), followed by His resurrection, is the baptism that was “NOW” saving those saints at that time.  It was not their day-to-day efforts of putting away sins of the flesh that was credited as the source of their salvation status.

Christ’s baptism of suffering and death, once for all, and His resurrection are what secured the saints’ salvation - ALL stages of it, from the start until the finished glorification that these saints were anticipating in their very near future ( “now is our salvation nearer than when we believed” - Romans 13:11).

It is this statement, It was not their day-to-day efforts of putting away sins of the flesh that was credited as the source of their salvation status., that shows that you simply do not understand what the passage says or what I have been posting.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #548 on: Sat Jul 07, 2018 - 23:15:55 »
soterion  -  It’s quite possible for me to understand what you have been posting on this one point without agreeing with it.  You may be advocating for the typical interpretation of this.  However, it is not my job as a student of scripture to simply parrot the typical view if I believe the context speaks otherwise. 

In a chapter that puts heavy emphasis on the duties of personal sanctification for a Christian, (not personal hygiene), why would it be considered a stretch to think that a phrase like “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” is also dealing with the same topic of personal sanctification?  Wasn’t Christ said to have “PUT AWAY sin by the sacrifice of Himself”?  Same terminology. 

Doesn’t the set of verses surrounding I Peter 3:21 exalt this very part of Christ’s role in securing the saints’ salvation (i.e., His suffering, death, resurrection, and rule from heaven)?  And don’t you think this language of “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” sounds like a copy of II Cor. 7:1 where Paul urged the saints to “cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God”?  To me, they both sound like a spot-on match dealing with personal sanctification.

I can’t escape the fact that Peter talks about a “figure” that saves us, like unto the same kind of figure as Noah’s flood. This phrasing about a “figure” of baptism is reminiscent of the way Isaac was likewise figuratively saved from death at Abraham’s hand, as described in Heb. 11:19.  “Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from whence also he received him IN A FIGURE”.

Isaac was “resurrected” or saved from death in a figure.
Noah’s 8 souls were also saved from the death of an inundated sinful world in a figure.
In the same symbolic manner, we are saved from a sinful world by the figure of the baptism of Christ in His suffering, death, and resurrection. 

There’s a symbolic symmetry to all this.  It looks as if the main distinction between your comments and mine about this point is that I see the “baptism that now saves us”  as CHRIST’S baptism of suffering and death that accomplishes this, and not our own.

You and I may never agree on this topic, soterion, but I appreciate your courteous responses nonetheless.


Offline RB

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #549 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 03:16:12 »
......In a chapter that puts heavy emphasis on the duties of personal sanctification for a Christian, (not personal hygiene), why would it be considered a stretch to think that a phrase like “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” is also dealing with the same topic of personal sanctification?  Wasn’t Christ said to have “PUT AWAY sin by the sacrifice of Himself”?  Same terminology. 

Doesn’t the set of verses surrounding I Peter 3:21 exalt this very part of Christ’s role in securing the saints’ salvation (i.e., His suffering, death, resurrection, and rule from heaven)?  And don’t you think this language of “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” sounds like a copy of II Cor. 7:1 where Paul urged the saints to “cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God”?  To me, they both sound like a spot-on match dealing with personal sanctification.

I can’t escape the fact that Peter talks about a “figure” that saves us, like unto the same kind of figure as Noah’s flood. This phrasing about a “figure” of baptism is reminiscent of the way Isaac was likewise figuratively saved from death at Abraham’s hand, as described in Heb. 11:19.  “Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from whence also he received him IN A FIGURE”.

Isaac was “resurrected” or saved from death in a figure.
Noah’s 8 souls were also saved from the death of an inundated sinful world in a figure.
In the same symbolic manner, we are saved from a sinful world by the figure of the baptism of Christ in His suffering, death, and resurrection. 

There’s a symbolic symmetry to all this.  It looks as if the main distinction between your comments and mine about this point is that I see the “baptism that now saves us”  as CHRIST’S baptism of suffering and death that accomplishes this, and not our own..........
Very well stated, but more so, according to the scriptures.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #550 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 05:01:42 »
There’s a symbolic symmetry to all this.  It looks as if the main distinction between your comments and mine about this point is that I see the “baptism that now saves us”  as CHRIST’S baptism of suffering and death that accomplishes this, and not our own.


1 Pet. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Offline Michael2012

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #551 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 05:05:44 »
3 Resurrections,  RB, Soterion,

1 Peter 3: 18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What do you say is the type?

Offline 4WD

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #552 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 06:56:48 »
3 Resurrections,  RB, Soterion,

1 Peter 3: 18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What do you say is the type?
Obviously, the type is the being saved through the water of the flood of Noah.  That antitype is the being saved through the water of immersion [baptism].

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #553 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 09:27:33 »

You and I may never agree on this topic, soterion, but I appreciate your courteous responses nonetheless.

Well, except for my last one, I'm sure.

Thank you for your grace in this discussion as well. ::tippinghat::

Offline soterion

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #554 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 09:29:33 »
Obviously, the type is the being saved through the water of the flood of Noah.  That antitype is the being saved through the water of immersion [baptism].

Agreed. ::cool::

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #555 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 14:30:33 »
soterion  -  I try to never mistake boldness for rudeness.  You are firmly resolved in your beliefs and are willing to be vocal about them.  Christ is most worthy of our faithful zeal in defending His words, whether or not any of us are perfected in knowledge yet on any given point.  He looks at the heart’s desire towards Himself, and gives mercy in spite of the errors to which we are all prone.  Let the discipleship classes continue...

Michael2012  -  Indeed, as 4WD said to start with,  “Obviously, the type is the being saved through the water of the flood of Noah.” 

STOP there. 
The ANTI-TYPE is our being saved by CHRIST’S BAPTISM of suffering, death, burial, and especially resurrection.  The emphasis is plainly there in I Peter 3:21 that we are saved in a figure similar to Noah’s flood “...*BY* THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST”.

Even Paul places the same stress on the vital importance of the resurrection of Christ in I Cor. 15:17: “And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”  If baptism by dunking in water were the determining factor for ridding us of our sins, Paul would have phrased this as “If ye be not water-baptized, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” 

Luke 12:49-50 is the key for understanding how Christ’s suffering, death, burial, and resurrection can be considered a baptism in I Peter 3:21.  “But I HAVE A *BAPTISM* TO BE BAPTIZED WITH, and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!”  This particular baptism of Christ’s is the basis for our claim to a good conscience and our salvation.

Offline Jaime

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #556 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 15:13:22 »
Jesus said so that Paul wouldn’t have to: Mark 16:16. He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved.

We put on Christ in baptism. We are baptised INTO HIM.

There would have been NONE of this debate in the first century. No one would have thought of parsing baptism out of salvation.

Scripture ALWAYS indicates immediate baptism. It was important and yes it had something to donwith salvation. I could be forever ailent on the aubject if oeople wouod just quit making the absurd assertion that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It most certainly does.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 15:21:42 by Jaime »

Online NorrinRadd

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #557 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 15:49:12 »
It didn't have anything to do with mine.  I wasn't baptized 'til about two or three years after I got saved.   ::nodding::

Offline Jaime

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #558 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 16:22:56 »
Hiw does that compare to the examples in the NT? It was ALWAYS immediate baptism.

Not to beat you over the head, but why the delay?

« Last Edit: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 16:27:43 by Jaime »

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Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Reply #559 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 16:55:27 »
It didn't have anything to do with mine.  I wasn't baptized 'til about two or three years after I got saved.   ::nodding::
What makes you think you were saved before you were baptized? What makes you think your sins were forgiven before you were baptized?  What makes you think you had the gift [the indwelling] of the Holy Spirit before you were baptized?

Just curious about that.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 16:58:18 by 4WD »

 

     
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