Author Topic: The World Of Judas Iscariots  (Read 1717 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13643
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #35 on: Sat May 21, 2022 - 07:13:53 »
Disagree.  When Man fell away, he took all of creation with him. 

Romans 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


The "redemption" will occur when our Lord returns.   But until then, everywhere from Earth to the farthest galaxy billions of lightyears away have all been "subjected to futility."  I take that as the start of the 2nd law of thermodynamics - entropy/randomness always increases. If that is not futility I do not know what is.  Everything goes to H*** in a handbasket.

NO - the universe is NOT as it was when God created it.
Romans 8:20 is speaking about the same creation as is Mrk 16:15. This is one place where the KJV gets it right.  From Storng's:

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.


That should be obvious from the context of the passage.  It is about the creature, i.e., mankind.

Nothing material changed as a result of Adam's sin. The physical universe, apart from man, is not corrupted or in bondage to corruption.

So yes, the universe is precisely as it was when God created it.  I would argue that goes for mankind as well.  Adam was created with the ability to choose to obey or not.  We have been given that same ability.  Unfortunately, we, just like poor old Adam, sometimes choose to not obey. That is why even "we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (v.23).

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13643
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #36 on: Sat May 21, 2022 - 07:18:11 »
SIN: 

Hebrew:  Chatah  (H2398)
Greek: hamartia  (G266)

Both are archery terms meaning to miss the mark - the bulls eye.  So whether it is intentional or not, it is a bad aim.

Yes, but that is not a flaw or a defect.  That is according to the way in which God created us.  It is a flaw or a defect in our behavior but not in God's creation.  Man was created with that ability.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17471
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #37 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 08:30:59 »
Romans 8:20 is speaking about the same creation as is Mrk 16:15. This is one place where the KJV gets it right.
Yes.  We preach God's good News to all creation.  Earth.  The spirit world.  The furthest reaches of the galaxy and universe (if we ever get there). 
Quote
From Storng's:

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
It can mean either creation or creature.  I notice creation is listed first. 
Quote
That should be obvious from the context of the passage.  It is about the creature, i.e., mankind.
Not so fast.  It may be "obvious" to you, but is that due to your own viewpoint?  It certainly is not that obvious to me.  God is much bigger than just us.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13643
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #38 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 10:13:55 »
Yes.  We preach God's good News to all creation.  Earth.
Seriously, you preach the good news to the earth? The rocks? The streams? The mountains? The Sun, moon and stars? Interesting.
Quote from: DaveW
Not so fast.  It may be "obvious" to you, but is that due to your own viewpoint? 
I would push that one right back on you.  The reason that it is not obvious to you is because you apparently think the entire universe was turned topsy turvy when Adam sinned.  It wasn't. The only change was Adam's relationship with God; he died spiritually.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #38 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 10:13:55 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #39 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 12:32:15 »
Jarrod:

    Before retiring for the night, here are a few passages that contain the term “perfect.” In most of the passages the Greek scholar Thayer renders them “complete” or of “full age.”

    God therefore created a perfect or complete Earth when He took a mass of material and reformed it, and then placed a perfect or complete animal-kind and humankind upon it. And it remained such until man solicited and took to himself what his Maker denied him.

Matthew 5:48
Romans 12:2
I Cor. 13:10
II Cor. 12:9
Col. 3:14
Heb. 10:1
Heb. 11:40


Etc., etc.

Buff
Ok, let's use those words instead.

God didn't create the world complete, or of full age.  He created it formless and void.

God doesn't create people as finished products either.  We start as babies and it takes a good long while to get to maturity (if ever!)

The idea that God made everything a completed product, and we've been screwing it up ever since doesn't hold water, Biblically.  God didn't tell Abraham, 'you're perfect, now walk before me.'  He told him, 'walk before me, and be perfect.'

And He's still workin' on me, to make me what I oughta be...

Jarrod

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #39 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 12:32:15 »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17471
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #40 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 13:44:31 »
Seriously, you preach the good news to the earth? The rocks? The streams? The mountains? The Sun, moon and stars? Interesting.
If you read thru the OT prophets and psalms, you will find many instances when the mountains and the ocean waves and the trees are written as being alive and praising the Lord. 

I am a bible literalist and take those passages very seriously and literally.  Two example of many:

Isaiah 55:12
For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

Psalm 95:11
Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad;
Let the sea roar, and all its fullness;
12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is in it.
Then all the trees of the woods will rejoice
13a before the Lord.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13643
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #41 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:16:07 »
Please explain, in some detail, what such passages mean when taken literally.  When was the last time you saw trees with hands, literally, to clap?

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17471
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #42 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 05:13:29 »
Please explain, in some detail, what such passages mean when taken literally.  When was the last time you saw trees with hands, literally, to clap?
<sigh> 

I cannot see into the spiritual realm to see what the trees etc. really look like and what they are doing.  But apparently David, Ezekiel, Isaiah et al could and did.

All I know is the Bible says that and on some level it is literally true.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13643
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #43 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 07:08:29 »
<sigh> 

I cannot see into the spiritual realm to see what the trees etc. really look like and what they are doing.  But apparently David, Ezekiel, Isaiah et al could and did.

All I know is the Bible says that and on some level it is literally true.
You think there are trees etc. in the spiritual realm??  And that all because you want to think that Adam's sin corrupted not just is own spiritual relationship with God but instead corrupted the entire universe. Interesting. Inconsistent with everything we know about such things, but interesting.

I think it is much more likely that the Greek word Ktisis in Romans 8 is best interpreted as the creation mankind. I said that should be obvious, In verse 23, Paul says that not only mankind, generally, but even "we ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves....."

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The World Of Judas Iscariots
« Reply #43 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 07:08:29 »

 

     
anything