Author Topic: Justification  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline GB

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Justification
« on: Thu Apr 28, 2022 - 13:10:52 »


A man attacks and hurts another, without cause, and is guilty of sin before God. According to Scriptures, how is this man "Justified"?

This man can be forgiven, but still has the stain of this sin.

Nothing can make this lawless man "just". To become Just, this sinful man must die, and be replaced by, or reborn as, a "new man". A man who doesn't beat up on others. This Lawless man is crucified, and is reborn into a New man who is not Lawless. And this made Spiritually possible by Faith or belief in the God of the Bible through the Lord's Christ.

Please take a moment and consider the following.

Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (If I am calling Jesus my Lord, but find I am walking in Transgression of God's commandments, is the Spirit of Christ causing/ teaching/ ministering for me to Sin? (God forbid)

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, (If I build again, the Lawless man who beats up other people) I make myself a transgressor. (A Lawless man again.)

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, (The Law says the man that sins shall die, so the lawless man is dead "through the Law") that I might live unto God. (Live unto God as what? A Lawless man who beats up other people? Or a new man, who is Faithful to God and doesn't beat up on people?)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (So the New Man, is guided by the Life of Christ, which is different than the Lawless man, who was guided by the imagination of his own mind)

God's Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread are symbolic of this process. Paul understood; ""Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump". It begins with forgiveness (Passover), it ends in the Creation of a New man. (Justification)

Pentecost or "Feast of Weeks" also symbolizes this "change".

"And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

A New man. "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"

A Lawful man, as Paul also teaches "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."


But the Pharisees had corrupted the "Way of the Lord". They didn't want, or see a reason to change, or be reborn. They didn't even understand the concept even though it is symbolized all over the Law and Prophets. ( Stumbling Block) Zacharias and Simeon did, but the Pharisees didn't. They believed that by bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, which were "Works" of the old Priesthood (Governing Authority), they could keep their old lawless self, and were "made just" by these "works of the Law".

Jesus tries to explain this to a Pharisees called Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, and HE taught this "way of the Lord" during His life on earth.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

"No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, Neither do men put new wine into old bottles"

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

The popular religious philosophy of this world, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation, or justification by obeying God's Laws is an insidious lie. But much of the doctrines and religious traditions of this world, are founded on this deception just the same. I am hoping some might consider.



Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #1 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 06:26:06 »
Gal 3:10  For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

"It is written" :

Deu 27:26  "'Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'

Offline GB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #2 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 11:55:57 »
Gal 3:10  For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

"Rely on the "Works of the LAW" for what?

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Who did Peter, by the Spirit of Christ, tell both you and I, receives the holy Spirit?

Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, (But 4WD, wasn't Jesus the true high Priest of God?)

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

As it is to this day.



Quote
Deu 27:26  "'Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'


I think it's important to consider more than just a verse here or a verse there.. Here, lets see what God was teaching them.

15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.

18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.

19 Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

21 Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.

22 Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

23 Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.

24 Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen.

25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.


But men have broken this law, and therefore are cursed. How do they get "uncursed" in Paul's time? Do they follow the Pharisees who were still selling sacrifices and relying on the Sacrificial "works" of a Priesthood Prophesied to end "After those days?

If so, we will remain cursed, because it is written;

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

So then, if I'm still relying on a Levite Priest and the blood of a turtle dove for the remission of sins, as were the Pharisees, then I am bound to keep God's commandments perfectly, because neither a Levite Priest, nor the blood of goats, (A LAW added 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Statutes, Laws, and Commandments) can take away sin.

They were Shadows of the Christ and HIS Works as our true High Priest.





Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #3 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 12:34:55 »
Those two verses tell me that your version of what Paul means by "Works of the Law" when he speaks of salvation being by grace and not by works of the law is simply wrong.  And that so far as I am concerned is the end of it.

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Re: Justification
« Reply #3 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 12:34:55 »

Offline GB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #4 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 14:33:35 »
Those two verses tell me that your version of what Paul means by "Works of the Law" when he speaks of salvation being by grace and not by works of the law is simply wrong.  And that so far as I am concerned is the end of it.

Well there you go. No discussion of the thread I posted, no honest examination of scriptures I post, complete refusal to answer any of my questions.

I'm wrong about the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were requiring of the Galatians, because you say so.

How perfectly typical.








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Re: Justification
« Reply #4 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 14:33:35 »

Offline RB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #5 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 15:21:57 »
Well there you go. No discussion of the thread I posted, no honest examination of scriptures I post, complete refusal to answer any of my questions.

I'm wrong about the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were requiring of the Galatians, because you say so.

How perfectly typical.
GB, I can see why you think 4WD refused to answer you~you made a statement this week to Rella that really proved to me that you have no understanding of the doctrine of FREE Justification. You said:
Quote from: GB from Re: For those of you who have studied or have indepth knowledge of Jewish law Reply #46 on: Wed Apr 27, 2022 - 10:41:07
But Rella, isn't it true that God knows His Children will slip and fall into sin on this journey through life? And isn't that the very reason why HE created "Justification" in the first place? How was Abraham Justified? Because of his belief, AKA, Faith, Yes? And how was his belief/faith shown? By rejecting and disobeying God's instruction like the Pharisees did? Or by submitting to God and HIS instruction, like Zacharias did?
Now, I would be more than happy to discuss this one point with you, if you desire to do so. RB

Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #6 on: Fri Apr 29, 2022 - 16:08:01 »
I'm wrong about the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were requiring of the Galatians, because you say so.

How perfectly typical.
Not because I say so; rather because both Moses and Paul say so.  The passages I quoted effectively define the meaning of works of the law.  It you think that is not the case, then show us (me) where works of the law are defined differently.

Offline GB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #7 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 11:33:01 »
Not because I say so; rather because both Moses and Paul say so.  The passages I quoted effectively define the meaning of works of the law.  It you think that is not the case, then show us (me) where works of the law are defined differently.

No, you posted 2 scriptures that I agree with and examined for discussion. And you completely ignored everything I said, the questions I asked, and the scriptures I posted.. Just as you completely ignored the entire point of my thread.

So at least please be honest 4WD. You defined nothing.




Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #8 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 12:50:42 »
So at least please be honest 4WD. You defined nothing.
Your're right, I defined nothing.  But scripture did.  Works of Law are not limited to the acts of the Levitical priesthood.  Most works of the law are directed at the people, not the priests.  Deuteronomy is, for the most part,  directed to the people, not the priests.

Deu 27:26  "'Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'

The obvious implication there is that if anyone did confirm the words of the law by doing them, then they wouldn't be cursed.  So the failure is not in the law.  The failure is that no one does confirm the words of the law by doing them.  And that is Paul's message concerning justification not by works and it really has nothing to do with the priests.

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Re: Justification
« Reply #8 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 12:50:42 »

Offline GB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #9 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 15:03:42 »
Your're right, I defined nothing.  But scripture did.  Works of Law are not limited to the acts of the Levitical priesthood.

I agree with that.

But the Pharisees, the Jews, were still promoting their version of the Levitical Priesthood, which was central to the Jews religion. They were not following or promoting obedience to God's Law, if they had, they would have know Jesus when HE came, like Zacharias and Simeon did. It was the Jews religion VS the Law and Prophets that Jesus and Paul taught from.

Gal. 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Surely you understand that the JEWS were still persecuting the Church of God, bewitching the Galatians.


Quote
Most works of the law are directed at the people, not the priests. 

This is also true. But under certain circumstances, there were "works" directed at both the common man, and the Priest's.

One undeniable circumstance, in which "Works" were required by Law, is in the case of a person who was found in transgression of God's Commandments, and sought to be forgiven for this sin, that had already happened. (Remission of sins that are past)

That is what Paul is addressing in Roman's 3.

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

But the Jews did not believe Jesus was that Priest, who the Law and Prophets had foretold God would set forth. Even though they had the Oracles of God, "many" didn't believe them. Zacharias did, Simeon did, but the Pharisees did not.

So the Jews Religion were still requiring the "works" of the Levitical Priesthood, defined in the Law and Prophets, for the remission of sins that are past. These are undeniable Biblical Truths 4WD. Don't reject them simply to preserve some popular ancient religious philosophy. That's what the Pharisees did.


 
Quote
Deuteronomy is, for the most part,  directed to the people, not the priests.

Yes, this is also true. But what if they find that were transgressing one of these laws in ignorance? This chapter doesn't tell them what to "do". But if you go the Leviticus 4, you will see what God directed the People to "Do" if they were found in sin.

This is what the Jews were still clinging to, for justification, and they were still promoting these "Works" even though Law and Prophets had prophesied about the New Priest who would come "After those days. Moses spoke of Him.

Duet. 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Had those Jews believed Moses, they would have known Jesus.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I can't just ignore all these Biblical Truths, simply to fit in to a popular ancient religious philosophy, namely that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God, and that they were requiring others to obey God as well. Yes, it's popular, but a falsehood just the same, if the Scriptures are the standard from which we receive doctrine.


Quote
The obvious implication there is that if anyone did confirm the words of the law by doing them, then they wouldn't be cursed.  So the failure is not in the law.  The failure is that no one does confirm the words of the law by doing them.

That is simply not biblically true. Caleb, Joshua, David, Hezekiah, Zacharias, John the Baptist, Simeon, Anna, these all confirmed the words of this Law by doing them. I know this is also taught against in the popular religious doctrines and traditions of this worlds religions, but the Scriptures confirm that they did.

Quote
  And that is Paul's message concerning justification not by works and it really has nothing to do with the priests.

If you think you can be "justified" without the High Priest of God, then you have really been taken for a ride. You should think this statement over 4WD. I can't believe you even said it.

You are I are having the same debate as Paul and the Jews. It's an ancient struggle between the religious doctrines and traditions of the religions of this world we were born into, and the actual teaching of the Holy scriptures.



Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #10 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 16:19:27 »
You are I are having the same debate as Paul and the Jews.
Not even close.  But if we were then it is because you are taking the side of the Jews. You are still enthralled with the rules for the Levite priests.

Offline GB

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Re: Justification
« Reply #11 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 18:08:52 »
Not even close.  But if we were then it is because you are taking the side of the Jews. You are still enthralled with the rules for the Levite priests.

Well you know full well that is a load of bunk. But what else do you have.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Justification
« Reply #12 on: Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 20:21:54 »
Well you know full well that is a load of bunk.
The only real bunk here is that cultic belief system you have conjured up; that belief system that is yours alone. You know that full well since you can't find anyone who believes as you do.