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Author Topic: Law and Grace  (Read 4390 times)

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thethinker

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 02:08:58 AM »
I never implied that nor did anyone else here. Grabbing ahold of the life preserver is required. It adds no cost to the free gift nor takes away from the miracle and grace of the sav(or) or savior or the salvation. It just must be done, that is if one believes we have free will to accept or reject, and I do.

Gospel remains too nice...

You cannot grab the life preserver, for you are dead and drowned.  It is God that drags you out of the water and breathes life into you.  The work of believing in Christ is not a work of man, but a work of God!

I agree with everything you say except the "drag" part. The word means "to wound." God afflicts the conscience and creates the felt need for Jesus and the man FREELY comes to Christ. God's irrestible grace does NOT mean that He 'drags' people.
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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 02:08:58 AM »

p.rehbein

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 05:07:49 AM »
Nothing to take credit for but it must be done. No one saves himself by accepting the free gift, but salvation is not conveyed without acceptance.

I never implied that nor did anyone else here. Grabbing ahold of the life preserver is required. It adds no cost to the free gift nor takes away from the miracle and grace of the sav(or) or savior or the salvation. It just must be done, that is if one believes we have free will to accept or reject, and I do.

Yuker, God offered all (the whole world) salvation. All will not accept. John 3:16. It's whosoever believes, not who ever is caught up in the irresistable tractor beam.

===========================================================

 ::thumbup:: ::wave:: ::Jesus:: ::amen!::

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 05:07:49 AM »

Offline pointmade

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 06:10:22 AM »
Consumming fire:
"The entire premise of the OP is wrong.  Thinking that Yeshua brought a different law in the NT is absurd.

You have nailed it CF..The law is secondary...the law was "added" to the PROMISE. (Gal. 3:19).
Jesus came to keep alive the "PROMISE" made to Abraham that all the families of the earth are to be blessed. (Gal. 3:24-29)

The law was made to define sin...the law was first ordained by angels and was not kept by the Jews
to whom it was given (Acts 7:53).

The grace of God therefore is conditional..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
And if you be Christ's, THEN (conditional) are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according (conditional) to the PROMISE."

One does not belong to Christ and "heir to the PROMISE" until you have been "baptized INTO CHRIST FOR
the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38).
Takes professional help to miss that.......

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 06:10:22 AM »

Offline segell

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 06:24:53 AM »
Nothing to take credit for but it must be done. No one saves himself by accepting the free gift, but salvation is not conveyed without acceptance.

I never implied that nor did anyone else here. Grabbing ahold of the life preserver is required. It adds no cost to the free gift nor takes away from the miracle and grace of the sav(or) or savior or the salvation. It just must be done, that is if one believes we have free will to accept or reject, and I do.

Yuker, God offered all (the whole world) salvation. All will not accept. John 3:16. It's whosoever believes, not who ever is caught up in the irresistable tractor beam.

===========================================================

 ::thumbup:: ::wave:: ::Jesus:: ::amen!::

p.r -How much did the ministry of the Holy Spirit play in your acceptance and taking hold of the life preserver?

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 06:24:53 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 11:29:58 AM »
Quote from: gospel
Gomer posted: What verse do you get the idea from that all one has to do to receive grace is agree with Jesus that He is Lord?


What verse(S)?

There are many ...here is a very good one lets see what it says

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 11:29:58 AM »



Offline Gomer

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »
The entire premise of the OP is wrong.  Thinking that Yeshua brought a different law in the NT is absurd.


The NT law is different from the OT law.  A major difference is that under the law of Moses one could not get complete remission of sins, Heb 10:1-4, yet under the NT law Christ's sacrifice does remit one's sins.  Christ took the OT out of the way by nailing it to His cross,  Col 2:14, Christ took away the first so that He may establish the second, Heb 10:9.  So one cannot receive grace by keeping the OT law but by keeping  Christ's NT law.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 12:02:12 PM »
Quote from: daq
Hi Gomer:  ::smile::

John 1:17 LIT (Literal Bible w/vertical Strong's Ref. #'s)
17.
   |3754| because
   |3588| the
   |3551| - [law]
   |1223| through
   |3475| Moses
   |1325| was given,
   |5485| gracious love
   |2532| and
   |0225| truth
   |1223| through
   |2424| Jesus
   |5547| Christ
   |1096| came into being.


The LIT Bible agrees word for word with the Greek TUA (GNT Morph Texts).

John 1:17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
17. Hoti ho nomos dia Mouseos edothe, he charis kai he aletheia dia Iesou Christou egeneto.
17. Because the law through Moses was given; the gracious-love and the truth through Yeshua Christou came into being.


In other words:
WITHOUT THE LAW THERE IS NO RECORD OF THE GRACE RENDERED because if transgression cannot first be proven through law and commandments than neither can grace or "forgiveness" be fully known to have been rendered even though, all the while, grace and mercy may have indeed been rendered. Thus, Noah did find grace and likewise Abraham believed the Word spoken to him, by faith, toward the imputing of righteousness to his account: yet neither of them saw the complete fulfillment of the promise until Christ gave himself; which is the doron-offering-sacrificial gift of YHWH.


Hi,

My point in the OP was that there are some who think they are not under ANY law at all but under grace only.

All are under NT law, for if there were no law then there would be no such thing as sin.  So grace and law go hand in hand.

Sometime back on another forum, I was dealing with a 'grace only' poster who claimed he was under no law at all.  When explained he was a sinner meaning he was under law, he then proceded to deny he even sinned just to keep from ever admitting he was under Christ's NT law.

Quote from: daq
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift (GSN#1435 doron) of God:

Ephesians 2:8 LIT
8.
   |1063| For
   |5485| by gracious love
   |2075| you are
   |4982| saved,
   |1223| through
   |4102| faith,
   |2532| and
   |5124| this
   |3756| not
   |1537| of
   |5216| you,
   |2316| of God
   |9999| {is}
   |3588| the
   |1435| gift.


Original Strong's Ref. #1435
Romanized  doron
Pronounced do'-ron
a present; specially, a sacrifice:
KJV--gift, offering.

Ephesians 2:8 TUA
8. Te gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia pisteos, kai touto ouk ex humon, Theou to doron,
8. For by gracious-love you are [being - having been]-saved through faith; and this is not out from yourselves: [of] Theou [is] the doron-offering-sacrifice-gift.


If one can truly see the impact and depth of the statement above then he or she will eventually come to understand, by the Word, that PARTICIPATION in the holy food offering of the altar is still required in the New Covenant; and that freewill-gift-offering is of course Yeshua himself: our Passover, voluntary freewill offering, vow offering (Nazarite) and sacrifice of peace offerings. And to partake of the offerings of the altar one needs to be either natural born or purchased by a priest if he was formerly a stranger. And then to partake of the holy offerings one must first wash himself or herself, (by/in the water of the Word) and must have clean garments.

Eph 2:8 is a good verse that shows that savlation is not by grace only or faith only but it is a combination of both God's grace and man's faith.  Therefore receiving God's grace is conditional upon man having faith..."By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."  Therefore no faith = no grace.


Quote from: daq
Leviticus 7:11-21 KJV
11. And this is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he shall offer unto the Lord.
12. If he offer it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and cakes mingled with oil, of fine flour, fried.
13. Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings.
14. And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the Lord, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
15. And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning.
16. But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
17. But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
18. And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
19. And the flesh that toucheth any unclean thing shall not be eaten; it shall be burnt with fire: and as for the flesh, all that be clean shall eat thereof.
20. But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the Lord, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
21. Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the Lord, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 22:5-11 KJV
5. Or whosoever toucheth any creeping thing, whereby he may be made unclean, or a man of whom he may take uncleanness, whatsoever uncleanness he hath;
6. The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.
7. And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food.

8. That which dieth of itself, or is torn with beasts, he shall not eat to defile himself therewith; I am the Lord.
9. They shall therefore keep mine ordinance, lest they bear sin for it, and die therefore, if they profane it: I the Lord do sanctify them.
10. There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
11. But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.


All of these things are SPIRIT: the "money" of the priest is the innocent and holy Blood of our High Priest Yeshua which same Blood has purchased us; the clean garment is the conscience; the bathing and washing is clearly of the water of the Word.  ::smile::


Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"

This is a reference to the fact the Ephesian Christan had been born again:

Jn 3:5-----------Spirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Eph 5:26------the WOrd++++++++++++washing of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Online Jaime

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 12:05:45 PM »
The entire premise of the OP is wrong.  Thinking that Yeshua brought a different law in the NT is absurd.


The NT law is different from the OT law.  A major difference is that under the law of Moses one could not get complete remission of sins, Heb 10:1-4, yet under the NT law Christ's sacrifice does remit one's sins.  Christ took the OT out of the way by nailing it to His cross,  Col 2:14, Christ took away the first so that He may establish the second, Heb 10:9.  So one cannot receive grace by keeping the OT law but by keeping  Christ's NT law.


Christ took away the ceremonial law not the moral law. We are still commanded not to kill, etc. The OT was not taken out of the way. The ceremonial law was, but no there is no NT without the OT. It's one story, not two. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill (fill it up or properly interpret it), as we see in the Sermon on the Mount.

thethinker

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 12:22:35 PM »
The entire premise of the OP is wrong.  Thinking that Yeshua brought a different law in the NT is absurd.


The NT law is different from the OT law.  A major difference is that under the law of Moses one could not get complete remission of sins, Heb 10:1-4, yet under the NT law Christ's sacrifice does remit one's sins.  Christ took the OT out of the way by nailing it to His cross,  Col 2:14, Christ took away the first so that He may establish the second, Heb 10:9.  So one cannot receive grace by keeping the OT law but by keeping  Christ's NT law.


Christ took away the ceremonial law not the moral law. We are still commanded not to kill, etc. The OT was not taken out of the way. The ceremonial law was, but no there is no NT without the OT. It's one story, not two. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill (fill it up or properly interpret it), as we see in the Sermon on the Mount.

But we're not saved by keeping the moral law. Paul was talking about the moral law when he said, "The commnadment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death." We know that he was speaking about the moral law because he had just said that he would not have known sin except the law had said, "You shall not covet."

Even if they had been able to keep the moral law it would not have given them the reward of immortality. The best they would have gotten from keeping the moral law would have been longevity in the land. This was "life" under the old covenant. After they died they would have went down to sheol without the hope of a resurrection. So God trashed that law covenant and started a new covenant which was established on "better promises."

Immortality and the hope of the resurrection came through the obedience of Christ and nothing else. This is new covenant "life."

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 12:22:35 PM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 02:43:09 PM »
Quote from: Jaime

Christ took away the ceremonial law not the moral law. We are still commanded not to kill, etc. The OT was not taken out of the way. The ceremonial law was, but no there is no NT without the OT. It's one story, not two. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill (fill it up or properly interpret it), as we see in the Sermon on the Mount.

I would say Christ took all of it out of the way.  By taking the 10 commandments out of the way does not mean it is acceptable to murder for Christ's NT that replaced the 10 commandents does not allow for murder.  Christ took all of the OT out of the way not by destroyiing it, but took it all out of the way by fulfilling it.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 02:43:09 PM »

Online Jaime

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 05:15:55 PM »
Gomer, Jesus didn't do (abolish the law) what he said he didn't come to do. He RAISED the bar. Before we were simply not to murder. Jesus said if we harbor anger in oir heart, we are guilty of murder. We were not to commit adultry, Jesus said if we lust in our heart, wd are guilty of adultry. He wants the law IN our hearts. Fulfill in the context of Mathew 5 and the Sermon on the Mount. Learly meant fill up or properly interpret. Nothing resembling abolishing or moving out of the way.

And no, no one was ever saved by keeping the Law.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 05:29:39 PM »
Thinker, The Law never saved anyone. Even Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Grace is not only a NT concept. God's grace was drippping all over the pages of the Torah.

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 10:14:26 PM »
Quote from: Jaime

Christ took away the ceremonial law not the moral law. We are still commanded not to kill, etc. The OT was not taken out of the way. The ceremonial law was, but no there is no NT without the OT. It's one story, not two. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill (fill it up or properly interpret it), as we see in the Sermon on the Mount.

I would say Christ took all of it out of the way.  By taking the 10 commandments out of the way does not mean it is acceptable to murder for Christ's NT that replaced the 10 commandents does not allow for murder.  Christ took all of the OT out of the way not by destroyiing it, but took it all out of the way by fulfilling it.
You continue to misinterpret what 'fulfill' means.  Yeshua makes this abundantly clear when he says in Matt 5:19,
"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Was Yeshua's new law to love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul, and mind?  No, he was quoting Yahweh in Duet 6:5,
"Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

How can you possibly think Yeshua came to do away with the 10 commandments?  He intensified the 10 commandments.  He made it very clear that these laws are to be kept through ones heart and not as a checklist to go through.  He had a problem with the man-made oral law that was ruining the temple and causing them to transgress the law.  Now with Yahweh's eternal laws that are to be kept for all time.[/i]

p.rehbein

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 05:50:54 AM »
trolls, trolls, trolls......everydarnwhere........trolls

 ::lookaround:: ::noworries::

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 11:39:33 AM »
trolls, trolls, trolls......everydarnwhere........trolls

 ::lookaround:: ::noworries::
Says the person with the only irrelevant troll post in the thread.