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Offline grace

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »
So those that believe the 10 commandments have not been done away with...are we required to obey them? If so, what about the 4th commandment? If we're obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
Yes, we are required to obey the eternal laws of Adonai.  Nothing has changed about the 4th commandment, the Sabbath is still the last day of the week, Saturday.  There is not a "Christian Sabbath" that did away with Saturday worship.  If one does exist, it is not Biblical. 



 (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 8:4-6, Ephesians 6:1-3, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, 20, and 1 John 3:15) demonstrate that nine of the Ten Commandments have counterparts in the New Testament, but notice that the Fourth Commandment (observing the Sabbath) is missing. There's no New Testament counterpart for the Fourth Commandment. The Sabbath has been completely canceled in Christ, and Christians are not required to observe it.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 11:14:34 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 12:50:01 PM »
Basically many of you are confused about the Law, the intent of the Law and therefore do not understand what Paul was saying.

FIRST OF ALL ...Paul was persecuted because he was preaching a Gospel contrary to the Law

You can't then in 2012 use Paul's own words to try to prove that he was preaching on behalf of the Law

Paul preached GOOD NEWS, that is what the gospel means

Most of you are still preaching Bad News....clearly you do not understand that the Law is bad news to man because to us, it is a curse.

The reason it is a curse is because we cannot fulfill it and by it, just like Muslims, just like Jews we are doomed

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; Galatians 1:6

Many of you are guilty of what Paul is saying in this verse  

but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

Furthermore if you are not born a Jew....YOU ARE IMPOSING YOURSELF INTO A SYSTEM AND UNDER A CONTRACT that not only no longer exists but never included you in the first place!

What you call The Law was a Covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two parties. Basically it says you do this and I'll do that

The covenant of the Law was between God and the Jews

In Exodus 19 the Jews said they would do everything God had asked of them..God said ok....here it is

Through the Law God was merely exposing their inability to do everything He asked..therefore the Law only existed to bring them to the end of themselves...not to make them righteous, not to make them holy but show them their need of His Help, His Righteousness and His Holiness

Through the Covenant of the Law God was looking at their behavior

Through the New Covenant of Grace we are called to look to His Behavior
( see Hebrews 12:1,2 )

God's agreement was not with Romans, not with Greeks, not with Arabs or anyone else other than Jews

Only Jews were under the Law...NO ONE ELSE!

Furthermore that Law is no more in effect evenfor them....they do not realize it because they haven't accepted Jesus fulfillment of their end of the agreement

But you as a New Testament believer,  A New Creation is Christ have no excuse!

If you think I'm just talking I refer you to Matthew 8.

But before doing so allow me to explain the basis of why.....

Some of the things Jesus states can be and has been misconstrued...the same for Paul as some of you are doing in this thread

To understand what Jesus meant by what He said one only has to look at what He did for in what He did there is no confusion regarding His intent and Purpose

That stated, immediately following the sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 8 the first first people Jesus encountered were unacceptable in the eyes of the Law as practiced by the Jews

The Leper, legally and ceremonially unclean under the Law just simply touching a leper also made you unclean  

HOWEVER


3 [b]Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man.[/b] “I am willing,
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 01:00:38 PM by gospel »
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 12:50:01 PM »

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 10:51:42 PM »
Basically many of you are confused about the Law, the intent of the Law and therefore do not understand what Paul was saying.

FIRST OF ALL ...Paul was persecuted because he was preaching a Gospel contrary to the Law

You can't then in 2012 use Paul's own words to try to prove that he was preaching on behalf of the Law

Paul preached GOOD NEWS, that is what the gospel means

Most of you are still preaching Bad News....clearly you do not understand that the Law is bad news to man because to us, it is a curse.

The reason it is a curse is because we cannot fulfill it and by it, just like Muslims, just like Jews we are doomed

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; Galatians 1:6

Many of you are guilty of what Paul is saying in this verse  

but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

Furthermore if you are not born a Jew....YOU ARE IMPOSING YOURSELF INTO A SYSTEM AND UNDER A CONTRACT that not only no longer exists but never included you in the first place!

What you call The Law was a Covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two parties. Basically it says you do this and I'll do that

The covenant of the Law was between God and the Jews

In Exodus 19 the Jews said they would do everything God had asked of them..God said ok....here it is

Through the Law God was merely exposing their inability to do everything He asked..therefore the Law only existed to bring them to the end of themselves...not to make them righteous, not to make them holy but show them their need of His Help, His Righteousness and His Holiness

Through the Covenant of the Law God was looking at their behavior

Through the New Covenant of Grace we are called to look to His Behavior
( see Hebrews 12:1,2 )

God's agreement was not with Romans, not with Greeks, not with Arabs or anyone else other than Jews

Only Jews were under the Law...NO ONE ELSE!

Furthermore that Law is no more in effect evenfor them....they do not realize it because they haven't accepted Jesus fulfillment of their end of the agreement

But you as a New Testament believer,  A New Creation is Christ have no excuse!

If you think I'm just talking I refer you to Matthew 8.

But before doing so allow me to explain the basis of why.....

Some of the things Jesus states can be and has been misconstrued...the same for Paul as some of you are doing in this thread

To understand what Jesus meant by what He said one only has to look at what He did for in what He did there is no confusion regarding His intent and Purpose

That stated, immediately following the sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 8 the first first people Jesus encountered were unacceptable in the eyes of the Law as practiced by the Jews

The Leper, legally and ceremonially unclean under the Law just simply touching a leper also made you unclean  

HOWEVER


3 [b]Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man.[/b] “I am willing,

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 10:51:42 PM »

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2012, 05:43:33 AM »
So those that believe the 10 commandments have not been done away with...are we required to obey them? If so, what about the 4th commandment? If we're obligated to observe the Sabbath, then does it need to be on Saturday like in the Old Testament, or is there a "Christian Sabbath" which has been changed to Sunday?
Yes, we are required to obey the eternal laws of Adonai.  Nothing has changed about the 4th commandment, the Sabbath is still the last day of the week, Saturday.  There is not a "Christian Sabbath" that did away with Saturday worship.  If one does exist, it is not Biblical.  



 (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 8:4-6, Ephesians 6:1-3, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, 20, and 1 John 3:15) demonstrate that nine of the Ten Commandments have counterparts in the New Testament, but notice that the Fourth Commandment (observing the Sabbath) is missing. There's no New Testament counterpart for the Fourth Commandment. The Sabbath has been completely canceled in Christ, and Christians are not required to observe it.

To be honest I hesitate to bring up such things because we should be careful that we do not overstep our boundaries in certain situations with Scripture. And I do pray that in this instance this is not what I do here. The most likely reason we are given reminders of nine of the Ten Commandments in the New Testament, yet we are not given any direct and overt reminders to keep and observe the Sabbath in the New Testament is probably because in the original commandment we are commanded to REMEMBER the Sabbath Day. How can you be tested to see if you will REMEMBER it if you are again REMINDED to REMEMBER it?

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Original Strong's Ref. #2142
Romanized  zakar
Pronounced zaw-kar'
a primitive root; properly, to mark (so as to be recognized), i.e. to remember; by implication, to mention; also (as denominative from HSN2145) to be male:
KJV--X burn [incense], X earnestly, be male, (make) mention (of), be mindful, recount, record(-er), remember, make to be remembered, bring (call, come, keep, put) to (in) remembrance, X still, think on, X well.



Isaiah 56:1-7 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


Neither let the eunuch who joins himself to YHWH and his covenant say he or she, (neither male nor female in the Kingdom) is a DRY TREE but rather let them be graffed into the Jeremiah 11 and Romans 11 Olive Tree of YHWH through Christ Yeshua the Root, the Vine, and our Passover Lamb of YHWH. And what is this Everlasting Name better than that of sons and daughters from Isaiah 56:5?

And where is this Holy Mountain of Isaiah 56:7?

Revelation 2:17 KJV
17. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:11-12 KJV
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 14:1 ASV
1. And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
22. but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,
23. to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2012, 05:43:33 AM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2012, 07:37:37 AM »
The oral law is the exact thing being taught against throughout the entire NT. 

It is never talking about doing away the written law. 

Really? How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 7:6-7?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.
"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2012, 07:37:37 AM »



Amo

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2012, 09:09:36 AM »
Quote
Really? How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 7:6-7?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2012, 09:09:36 AM »

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2012, 09:29:34 AM »
Amen Amo!  ::smile::

The oral law is the exact thing being taught against throughout the entire NT.  

It is never talking about doing away the written law.  

Really? How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 7:6-7?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2012, 12:26:55 PM »
Amen Amo!  ::smile::

The oral law is the exact thing being taught against throughout the entire NT.  

It is never talking about doing away the written law.  

Really? How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 7:6-7?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.
"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2012, 01:18:07 PM »
Amen Amo!  ::smile::

The oral law is the exact thing being taught against throughout the entire NT.  

It is never talking about doing away the written law.  

Really? How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 7:6-7?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2012, 01:18:07 PM »

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2012, 06:06:30 PM »
NEW WINE  ~  NEW SPIRIT OF TORAH
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

 

Matthew 9:17 ASV
17.  Neither do men put new (GSN#3501 neos) wine into old wine-skins: (GSN#779 askos) else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new (GSN#3501 neos) wine into fresh (GSN#2537 kainos) wine-skins, and both are preserved.


Original Strong's Ref. #779
Romanized  askos
Pronounced as-kos'
from the same as GSN0778; a leathern (or skin) bag used as a bottle:
KJV--bottle.

Mark 2:22 ASV
22.  And no man putteth new (GSN#3501 neos) wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new (GSN#3501 neos) wine into fresh (GSN#2537 kainos) wine-skins.


And the great thing about the Words, Parables, and Doctrine of Christ, is that herein we have the true intended meanings of both GSN#3501 "neos" and GSN#2537 "kainos" in the NT writings, for CERTAINLY all of the NT Epistles adhere to the doctrines of Yeshua. Therefore we have before us, in the Scripture, the fact that the "New Covenant" is a RENEWED-REFRESHED-KAINOS COVENANT.

NEW SPIRIT  ~  RENEWED HEART

John 7: 38-39 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
38.  he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39.  and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
13.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 5:18 KJV
18.  And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


And ~

Luke 5:37-39 KJV
37.  And no man putteth new (GSN#3501 neos) wine into old bottles; else the new (GSN#3501 neos) wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38.  But new (GSN#3501 neos) wine must be put into new (GSN#2537 kainos) bottles; and both are preserved.
39.  No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: (GSN#3501 neos) for he saith, the old is better.

Matthew 13:51-52 KJV
51. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2012, 06:06:30 PM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2012, 06:43:27 AM »
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

Interesting. But, eventually those wineskins would be unusable, unacceptable and unredeemable containers for new wine. Correct? And at that point they would be officially "old", correct?



"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2012, 01:33:29 PM »
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

Interesting. But, eventually those wineskins would be unusable, unacceptable and unredeemable containers for new wine. Correct? And at that point they would be officially "old", correct?





Is there any man unredeemable? Is the arm of YHWH too short?

Matthew 19:25-26 KJV
25. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


There are indeed "vessels fit for destruction" but they are pictured as the herd of two thousand or so swine which rushed down the mountain side into the Lake when the legion was cast out of the Girgashite man of the Gergesenes. However, of any and all who come to Christ, in sincerity of heart and true repentance, there shall not be one taken from his hand. Those hearts which are renewed and refreshed by his grace will always fill themselves to the brim with his Doctrine and Word of Life and that we know shall never pass away. Therefore they also shall never die, though the flesh profits nothing, for the seed of the Word of the Sower is in them.

John 17:5-12 KJV
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


He that truly has the name of the Son, (New Testament-Covenant) truly also has the Name of the Father, (Old Testament-Covenant) and all these are a new creation, like the angels of heaven, neither male nor female, and again they cannot die.  ::smile::

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2012, 02:16:38 PM »
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

Quote
Interesting. But, eventually those wineskins would be unusable, unacceptable and unredeemable containers for new wine. Correct? And at that point they would be officially "old", correct?

Is there any man unredeemable? Is the arm of YHWH too short?

There are indeed "vessels fit for destruction" but they are pictured as the herd of two thousand or so swine which rushed down the mountain side into the Lake when the legion was cast out of the Girgashite man of the Gergesenes. However, of any and all who come to Christ, in sincerity of heart and true repentance, there shall not be one taken from his hand. Those hearts which are renewed and refreshed by his grace will always fill themselves to the brim with his Doctrine and Word of Life and that we know shall never pass away. Therefore they also shall never die, though the flesh profits nothing, for the seed of the Word of the Sower is in them.

He that truly has the name of the Son, (New Testament-Covenant) truly also has the Name of the Father, (Old Testament-Covenant) and all these are a new creation, like the angels of heaven, neither male nor female, and again they cannot die.  ::smile::

My point is in relation to the conversation at hand about the old and new covenant. That being that the old is old, it is not a "like new refurbished" version. And that it is not possible to pour the new into the old as it ruins both.




"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

daq

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2012, 03:37:02 PM »
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

Quote
Interesting. But, eventually those wineskins would be unusable, unacceptable and unredeemable containers for new wine. Correct? And at that point they would be officially "old", correct?

Is there any man unredeemable? Is the arm of YHWH too short?

There are indeed "vessels fit for destruction" but they are pictured as the herd of two thousand or so swine which rushed down the mountain side into the Lake when the legion was cast out of the Girgashite man of the Gergesenes. However, of any and all who come to Christ, in sincerity of heart and true repentance, there shall not be one taken from his hand. Those hearts which are renewed and refreshed by his grace will always fill themselves to the brim with his Doctrine and Word of Life and that we know shall never pass away. Therefore they also shall never die, though the flesh profits nothing, for the seed of the Word of the Sower is in them.

He that truly has the name of the Son, (New Testament-Covenant) truly also has the Name of the Father, (Old Testament-Covenant) and all these are a new creation, like the angels of heaven, neither male nor female, and again they cannot die.  ::smile::

My point is in relation to the conversation at hand about the old and new covenant. That being that the old is old, it is not a "like new refurbished" version. And that it is not possible to pour the new into the old as it ruins both.

What else could you have thought this was about? The testimony of Yeshua is the new-neos Spirit of Torah just as he is the new-neos Mediator of the Covenant. And his testimony is the new-neos Spirit of Torah because he interprets everything we need to know in the four Gospel accounts. Where do you think that Paul gets all of his interpretations of Torah? They are from the same source which is Christ Yeshua himself and his words, parables, and Doctrine. The new Spirit of Torah cannot be put into and old "wineskin" of a heart because it is the heart which will burst. Therefore one's heart must first be "renewed" (washed in Living Water and soaked in Oil of the Spirit) and this comes only by true repentance. If one has true repentance then he or she willingly takes upon himself, or herself, the yoke of Christ becoming subservient to his Doctrine and will, thus becoming a disciple of the Word. When a heart was renewed then is that vail removed in Christ and the new heart is capable of understanding his Doctrine and how it is that he interprets Torah: CORRECTING what the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes had corrupted for their own personal gain. It seems perhaps you have been sold somewhat of a "bill of goods" thinking that the Renewed-Kainos Covenant is completely contrary to the Old Covenant; yet nothing could be further from the truth, and we do not come to Christ on our own terms or on "trumped up terms" predicated by false teachings. Rather we all come to Christ on HIS TERMS and AT HIS FEET.

Is this not from one of your own threads?
You can lead a horse to water ...  ::smile::

I read the following and was struck dumb by it:

John 6:49-58 KJV
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


Then one day at a later time I read the following passage and the Spirit of Truth told me that this was part of the answer:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 KJV
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


And the Spirit of Truth said to me: "KEEP EATING" ~
So I did, and later again I came upon the following:

Exodus 12:5-11 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.


And I realized: I did in fact cause his death by my own transgressions.
SO I KEEP EATING ONLY WHAT IS HOLY AND FROM HIM!
BECAUSE HE IS IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM!

Mark 12:29-30 KJV
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 KJV
4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
5. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


Here again are the two side posts, (shoulders, arms, hands-deeds) and the upper post, (forehead) of the doorframes of the houses of the saints. The Word of YHWH is Yeshua, is the Manna from Heaven, is the Passover Lamb; and the people of YHWH are the house. The Gracious Love is like the holy freewill offering of the Passover Lamb who gave himself willingly: consume all of it and leave nothing til the morning; both the bitter with the sweet.  ::smile::

It is all Spirit, every word ~

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth. (Revelation 21)

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law and Grace
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2012, 03:50:02 PM »
Ever wonder that an old wineskin looks much like a human heart? Wineskins were not replaced with "brand new" skins every time, (way too expensive) but rather they were refreshed and renewed. In order to renew a wineskin first it would be washed in running water, (River of Life) then it would be soaked in oil, (Holy Spirit).

Quote
Interesting. But, eventually those wineskins would be unusable, unacceptable and unredeemable containers for new wine. Correct? And at that point they would be officially "old", correct?

Is there any man unredeemable? Is the arm of YHWH too short?

There are indeed "vessels fit for destruction" but they are pictured as the herd of two thousand or so swine which rushed down the mountain side into the Lake when the legion was cast out of the Girgashite man of the Gergesenes. However, of any and all who come to Christ, in sincerity of heart and true repentance, there shall not be one taken from his hand. Those hearts which are renewed and refreshed by his grace will always fill themselves to the brim with his Doctrine and Word of Life and that we know shall never pass away. Therefore they also shall never die, though the flesh profits nothing, for the seed of the Word of the Sower is in them.

He that truly has the name of the Son, (New Testament-Covenant) truly also has the Name of the Father, (Old Testament-Covenant) and all these are a new creation, like the angels of heaven, neither male nor female, and again they cannot die.  ::smile::

My point is in relation to the conversation at hand about the old and new covenant. That being that the old is old, it is not a "like new refurbished" version. And that it is not possible to pour the new into the old as it ruins both.

What else could you have thought this was about? The testimony of Yeshua is the new-neos Spirit of Torah just as he is the new-neos Mediator of the Covenant. And his testimony is the new-neos Spirit of Torah because he interprets everything we need to know in the four Gospel accounts. Where do you think that Paul gets all of his interpretations of Torah? They are from the same source which is Christ Yeshua himself and his words, parables, and Doctrine. The new Spirit of Torah cannot be put into and old "wineskin" of a heart because it is the heart which will burst. Therefore one's heart must first be "renewed" (washed in Living Water and soaked in Oil of the Spirit) and this comes only by true repentance. If one has true repentance then he or she willingly takes upon himself, or herself, the yoke of Christ becoming subservient to his Doctrine and will, thus becoming a disciple of the Word. When a heart was renewed then is that vail removed in Christ and the new heart is capable of understanding his Doctrine and how it is that he interprets Torah: CORRECTING what the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes had corrupted for their own personal gain. It seems perhaps you have been sold somewhat of a "bill of goods" thinking that the Renewed-Kainos Covenant is completely contrary to the Old Covenant; yet nothing could be further from the truth, and we do not come to Christ on our own terms or on "trumped up terms" predicated by false teachings. Rather we all come to Christ on HIS TERMS and AT HIS FEET.

Is this not from one of your own threads?
You can lead a horse to water ...  ::smile::

I read the following and was struck dumb by it:

John 6:49-58 KJV
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


Then one day at a later time I read the following passage and the Spirit of Truth told me that this was part of the answer:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 KJV
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


And the Spirit of Truth said to me: "KEEP EATING" ~
So I did, and later again I came upon the following:

Exodus 12:5-11 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.


And I realized: I did in fact cause his death by my own transgressions.
SO I KEEP EATING ONLY WHAT IS HOLY AND FROM HIM!
BECAUSE HE IS IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM!

Mark 12:29-30 KJV
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 KJV
4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
5. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


Here again are the two side posts, (shoulders, arms, hands-deeds) and the upper post, (forehead) of the doorframes of the houses of the saints. The Word of YHWH is Yeshua, is the Manna from Heaven, is the Passover Lamb; and the people of YHWH are the house. The Gracious Love is like the holy freewill offering of the Passover Lamb who gave himself willingly: consume all of it and leave nothing til the morning; both the bitter with the sweet.  ::smile::

It is all Spirit, every word ~

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth. (Revelation 21)



Here's what I think daq, it is impossible to communicate effective without a shared language, and since I am not a Hebrew, if you want to communicate with me you will have to speak english.




"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)