Author Topic: Law & Grace - Which?  (Read 1265 times)

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Law & Grace - Which?
« on: Wed Oct 13, 2021 - 16:00:42 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_____________________
 
Law & Grace

[WHICH ONE JUSTIFIES THE BELIEVER?]

    Paul told the Romans, “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing law; rather, through law we become conscience of sin” [3:20].

    For the believer, the only way to be declared righteous—or right—is by grace through faith. This is not to say that believers are not expected to adhere to law, whether moral law, political law, social law, or God’s law. Indeed, humankind and law are an integral part of the terrestrial life. Law is a rule of action, rules that govern our behavior. 

    Yet in spite of all the laws that surround us—moral, political, divine—not one of us will be saved because we observed them. For if law could save and justify and make right, the Law of Moses would have been adequate and Jesus would not have come to save us lawbreakers. “But now righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known” [Rom. 3:21]. That “righteousness” is Jesus!  “Because you are not under law, but under grace” [6:14].

    Romans and Galatians are two great letters that distinguish between law and grace. The committed believer will strive to do God’s will because of his faith. In other words, obedience is a reflection of his faith. And in that sense, we are subject to law or to governing principles and regulations. No man can live without some rule of action that governs his behavior, or at least should govern it, whether it be from Heaven or from man.

    But the bottom line is that Jesus ushered in an arrangement that revolves around grace and faith, not built upon a codified law. Jesus is the end of law, as per Paul, insofar as its being the reason or cause for our justification. Jesus and our faith in Him are the reason and cause for our justification and salvation, not perfect adherence to law. 

    Then why was the Old Covenant given? To keep the Jews, God’s people, in check until their Messiah should come. “So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith [or a system based on faith] has come, we are no longer under a guardian” [Gal. 3:24-25]. Again, let it be understood that we comply with God’s will or precepts because of our faith and trust, not because that by doing so we will be saved in heaven.
 
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 13, 2021 - 16:14:59 by Reformer »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 00:30:44 »
Plus one manna for this one Buff.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 04:49:34 »
The word "guardian"  in the Galatians passage has always intrigued me. I looked up the word “guardian” in the dictionary and it means a defender, protector, or keeper. Sort of a mother hen type picture with wings of protection surrounding her chicks. Have we read that passage to mean the Law is like a ball and chain or a slave master? The Law was a tutor.

I understand when Peter described Paul’s writings as difficult.

Romans 7:7-12 KJV
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Could it be BOTH not either/or Law and Grace. In many of Paul’s writings Law is good and just and holy. Yet we are freed from the PENALTY of the Law. That removal of the penalty is the ultimate grace.

Romans 8:1-2 KJV
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Law never saved anyone. Even the giving of the Law (the tutor) was by God’s grace.

« Last Edit: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 16:31:43 by Jaime »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 04:49:34 »

Offline RB

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:03:16 »
Jesus and our faith in Him are the reason and cause for our justification and salvation, not perfect adherence to law.
This one sentence reveals your serious error and the "other gospel" that Paul pronounces a curse upon! Our justification IS base upon perfect obedience to God's law~not our but Christ's! Our faith has not one thing to do with our legal justification but is at best, evidence that we are born of God.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:03:16 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:05:54 »
Being saved by grace through faith is not a release from the requirement to obey God's law.  Paul responded to this in Romans 6: What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (vv.1,2)

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:05:54 »



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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:27:25 »
Our justification IS base upon perfect obedience to God's law~not our but Christ's! Our faith has not one thing to do with our legal justification but is at best, evidence that we are born of God.
Jesus' perfect obedience to God's law didn't justify and save even one single person.  His perfect obedience only provided that he was the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. That sacrifice, His death on the cross, was the ransom for all who would believe in God.  The sacrifice of God's Son is the basis for salvation; our faith, our belief in Him, is the means whereby God saves us.

And by the way, justification is legal. Justification is the declaration by God that one is righteous, that is, the declaration that one is forgiven and released from the required punishment for sin, namely, eternal condemnation.  There is only "legal" justification; there is no other justification.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 06:27:25 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 09:12:05 »
This one sentence reveals your serious error and the "other gospel" that Paul pronounces a curse upon! Our justification IS base upon perfect obedience to God's law~not our but Christ's! Our faith has not one thing to do with our legal justification but is at best, evidence that we are born of God.
This is a common error, and an easy one to make, since the text of the Bible actually says this, in English .  But it's a bit of translation wonkiness.  Nobody who peeks under the hood and looks at the Greek will make that mistake.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 12:10:56 »
This is a common error, and an easy one to make, since the text of the Bible actually says this, in English
Where does it say that in English?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 17:31:33 »
Where does it say that in English?
Galatians 2

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 17:31:33 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 18:08:07 »
Only depending on the translation. Handy, huh?

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians%202:16

“Faith of Christ”
Or
“Faith in Christ”
Or
“Faithfulness of Christ”

Not at all the same things depending on one’s favorite translation of God’s word. May cause some head scratching.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 18:18:16 by Jaime »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Oct 14, 2021 - 21:37:48 »
johntwayne:

    Thank you for your commendation in Reply #1. Law and Grace can easily become a topic for a bushel of confusion. The truth is, obedience to Law is not our Savior. Only grace through faith.

    As noted in my thread, if Law can justify and save, the Law of Moses would have been our Redeemer. Obedience to Law is important, yes; but it is simply a reflection of our faith. In the long-run, grace through faith will accomplish what Law could not do.

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 05:02:52 »
Galatians 2
Not just in Galatians 2:16, but in other scriptures~but more than that, the gospel of Christ DEMANDS IT! That's the main reason I know our English bible translation of 1611 has Acts 3:16; Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 3:11,12; Philippians 3:9, etc. correct! They got it correct in EVERY SCRIPTURE. Perfect harmony! Praise be to God~BUT, we expect this to be so, if indeed we have the record that God has given of his Son~and I know that we do. 
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 06:21:22 by RB »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #12 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 05:17:06 »
The truth is, obedience to Law is not our Savior. 
Reformer, every man that preaches that a sinner MUST do this or that before they can be saved truly believes that OBEDIENCE TO A LAW is necessary.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 15:1~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Were you not part of group of people taught taught baptism was essential to being saved from one's sin and condemnation? If so, then you are guility of preaching obedience to a law, called water baptism.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 21:37:48
Only grace through faith.
The quote IS scriptually sound, but your application of that quote is summed up to be another gospel! We are saved by grace through faith, and THAT faith is NOT of ourselves, but is Jesus' faith he had as the Son of man! Sir, that's the difference between your gospel and Paul's. Selah.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #13 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 06:04:54 »
Galatians 2
Sorry, I was referring to RB's statement that we are saved by Jesus' obedience.  As I noted above, His obedience, even His perfect obedience, doesn't save anyone. 
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 06:43:55 by 4WD »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 06:40:26 »
Reformer, every man that preaches that a sinner MUST do this or that before they can be saved truly believes that OBEDIENCE TO A LAW is necessary. Were you not part of group of people taught taught baptism was essential to being saved from one's sin and condemnation? If so, then you are guility of preaching obedience to a law, called water baptism.
The condition of being water baptized is not law. As I have said oftentimes before, you do not understand the meaning of law, whether it is the Law of Moses or any other law.
Quote
The quote IS scriptually sound, but your application of that quote is summed up to be another gospel! We are saved by grace through faith, and THAT faith is NOT of ourselves, but is Jesus' faith he had as the Son of man! Sir, that's the difference between your gospel and Paul's. Selah.
The "THAT" in Ephesians 2:8 is not faith; rather it is the whole phrase, "by grace you are saved by faith".  Salvation, not faith, is the gift of God.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 07:22:02 »
Reformer, every man that preaches that a sinner MUST do this or that before they can be saved truly believes that OBEDIENCE TO A LAW is necessary.
The author of Hebrews says "he [Jesus]became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Heb 5:9).

Paul told Timothy about God, "inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Tim 1:8)  Thus clearly, if condemnation comes to those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, then salvation comes to those who know God and those who obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Peter also speaks of "the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God" (1 Pet 4:17).

Obviously this obedience is something that must be done, but it is not obedience to the Law.  So when Paul says things like "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight" (Rom 3:20), he is not talking about doing something. Obeying a command of God does not constitute obeying the law.  Clearly obeying the gospel is something we do but it is not obeying law, the law or the Law.

Hearing, believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized are not obedience to the Law or a law.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 07:32:09 by 4WD »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 07:37:14 »
Red, why DOESN'T Galatians 3:16 in the KJV say  “For ye are all the children of God by faith OF Christ Jesus“? By saying faith IN Christ for this passage, it is OUR faith that is the variable. Christ’s faith or faithfulness is constant and not in question. Our faith or lack thereof is what turns the key or not so to speak. It is an ascent or dropping our fists of resistance and submitting to God.  And the faithfulness of Christ in submitting himself to death, even death on a cross makes it possible of course. And keeping Christ's commandments is NOT works of the law. It is simply doing what God/Christ has commanded. If we love Him we will keep his commandments. Scripture is NOT telling us that we are saved by works of the law, but our obedience is a faith response to the gift of grace. We show our love of and faith IN HIM by doing what he commands. We earn or merit nothing by obeying him. It is an act of love. And we want to show Him that we love him by a statement out of His mouth, "if you love me keep my commandments." He DOESN'T say or imply, and we are NOT asserting he is saying, "for you to earn my love or salvation you must work for it or merit it by doing the works I require or the commandments I give."
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 10:22:03 by Jaime »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 09:56:06 »
We are saved by grace through faith, and THAT faith is NOT of ourselves, but is Jesus' faith he had as the Son of man! Sir, that's the difference between your gospel and Paul's.
No, no, no.  More bad interpretation, this time for Ephesians 2:8:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That does not refer to faith.  It refers to saved.  Because grammar.  Another common mistake attributable to some dodgy translation. 

To be fair, this verse is hard to render from Greek into English.  I'm not sure the construction of Greek words there has an equivalent in English.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 13:53:35 »
No, no, no.  More bad interpretation, this time for Ephesians 2:8:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That does not refer to faith. It refers to saved.


Now, you are a very smart man, yet here you are showing that your intelligence is only natural not spiritual! Jarrod, my man, "THAT" can ONLY refer to one or two subjects~grace or faith~we know that grace is not of ourselves, so it ONLY leaves FAITH, and knowing the scriptures, we know no natural man is capable of having true, spiritual, faith, impossible......so we have a perfect agreement.....scripture interpreting scriptures for us!
Quote
1st Corinthians 2:14~“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Paul taught the same doctrine to the Romans:
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 8:7~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
I guess this is another common mistake attributable to some dodgy translation.  It is not with the translation of our first English bible (one of the first) but the dodgy is with men who dislike its clear teachings.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 06:34:52 by RB »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 13:56:57 »
Red, why DOESN'T Galatians 3:16 in the KJV say  “For ye are all the children of God by faith OF Christ Jesus“? By saying faith IN Christ for this passage, it is OUR faith that is the variable. Christ’s faith or faithfulness is constant and not in question. Our faith or lack thereof is what turns the key or not so to speak. It is an ascent or dropping our fists of resistance and submitting to God.  And the faithfulness of Christ in submitting himself to death, even death on a cross makes it possible of course. And keeping Christ's commandments is NOT works of the law. It is simply doing what God/Christ has commanded. If we love Him we will keep his commandments. Scripture is NOT telling us that we are saved by works of the law, but our obedience is a faith response to the gift of grace. We show our love of and faith IN HIM by doing what he commands. We earn or merit nothing by obeying him. It is an act of love. And we want to show Him that we love him by a statement out of His mouth, "if you love me keep my commandments." He DOESN'T say or imply, and we are NOT asserting he is saying, "for you to earn my love or salvation you must work for it or merit it by doing the works I require or the commandments I give."
Let me take a break and see if time allows me to come back or wait until tomorrow. I at least have it marked so I will not forget.

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 15:23:18 »
RB:

    I am reluctant to respond to most of your doctrinal, Calvinistic  insertions, for they seem to be so tangled up in a myriad of ambiguous utterances. This is why I told you “Goodbye” a week or so ago. However, out of a feeling of “must do,” I am addressing you again. I’m referencing your #12 Reply. I’m hoping it will suffice as my last one.

    First off, I do not know your age, but my guess is that you are an advanced Senior Adult. How can I best explain your unattractive character—traits I feel have a tendency to aggravate one’s attention? Is there a possibility that due to your age, you have counterevolved? No offence, please, but if you have counterevolved that would explain why you appear to have reverted back to your adolescent years.

    Example, in your #12 Reply, you question and misrepresent my position on immersion in water—“baptism”—in spite of the fact I have clarified my stance on many occasions. I have compared the actions of repentance and immersion in water as reflections or images of our faith and trust in Messiah Jesus.

    Too, you have obedience equal to justification and salvation.  In Reply #3, you wrote, “Our justification is based upon perfect obedience to God’s law—not ours but Christ’s.” Paul writes in Galatians 3:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”

    “Justification” here, as well as in many other scriptures, according to the Greek, is “righteousness.” Therefore righteousness does not come through obedience to law—any law! That collides with what you said earlier, “Our justification is based upon perfect obedience to God’s law—not ours but Christ’s.”

    Again, you seem to tangle up your positions on grace, faith, justification, righteousness, and salvation. Your sentiments on all of these matters seem to switch from one doctrinal enterprise to another, depending on what and who you are replying to.

    Now you know why I have never in my life succeeded in my efforts to grasp Calvinism and all of its colorful concepts. “Confusion” is not an adequate term. “Mystification” is a better description. And on that note, I will release you to compose your next volume. But please do not expect a lengthy response.

In God we deeply trust, not Law,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 15:33:08 by Reformer »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 15:36:29 »
Red, to me “that” in Ephesians 2:8 refers, by grammatic construct, to salvation being the gift, which it certainly IS. It is not of ourselves as we all agree and it is BY grace through (our) faith IN Christ (and his faithfulness in his submitting to death, even death on a cross).
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 17:28:10 by Jaime »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 16:17:21 »
RB:

    I just now noticed in Reply #19 you may not be back until tomorrow. That's okay. That will give you more time to compose your response.

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 22:00:10 by Reformer »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 16:57:55 »
Now, you are a very smart man, yet here you are showing that your intelligence is only natural not spiritual! Jarrod, my man, "THAT" can ONLY refer to one or two subjects~grace or faith~we know that grace is not of ourselves, so it ONLY leaves FAITH, and knowing the scriptures, we know no natural man is capable of having true, spiritual, faith, impossible......so we have a perfect agreement.....scripture interpreting scriptures for us! Paul said taught the same doctrine to the Romans:I guess this is another common mistake attributable to some dodgy translation.  It is not with the translation of our first English bible (one of the first) but the dodgy is with men who dislike its clear teachings.
If THIS referred to grace or faith, then the word would match their case in Greek.  It does not.

Are you really going to argue against grammar?

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 18:29:16 »
UH HUH!


 ::smile::

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 23:24:40 »
Jarrod:

    I recall that some months ago, while exchanging views on Calvinism with RB, I quoted John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...” This is quoted from the English Standard Version. Other Versions convey the same conception, such as The New International Version. In 1526, Tyndale’s "The Newe Testiment" in English rendered John 7:17, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God...”
   
    But is he “quickened,” made alive, prior to his choosing to obey God, as the Calvinist asserts? A receptive person is quickened or made alive when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he “comes alive”—is “quickened.” 

    However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] [Rom. 10:17]. The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation or repentance, and without complying to the Lord’s injunctions. The writer of Hebrews announces, “And without faith it is impossible to please God” [11:6].

    As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He must be “quickened” or made alive by the Holy Spirit before he is able to choose. Nothing in the biblical testimony noted above indicates what the Calvinist teaches.

    Our Lord soundly proposes that a natural man can choose to do God’s will [John 7:17, above]. In his natural setting, he has that freedom. Otherwise, Jesus’ plea, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest,” is meaningless—incomprehensible and a “beating after the wind.”

    I apologize, for I didn’t intend to say this much. It came “naturally,” out of free will!

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 15, 2021 - 23:34:51 by Reformer »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 07:02:02 »
Red, why DOESN'T Galatians 3:16 in the KJV say  “For ye are all the children of God by faith OF Christ Jesus“? By saying faith IN Christ for this passage, it is OUR faith that is the variable. Christ’s faith or faithfulness is constant and not in question. Our faith or lack thereof is what turns the key or not so to speak. It is an ascent or dropping our fists of resistance and submitting to God.  And the faithfulness of Christ in submitting himself to death, even death on a cross makes it possible of course. And keeping Christ's commandments is NOT works of the law. It is simply doing what God/Christ has commanded. If we love Him we will keep his commandments. Scripture is NOT telling us that we are saved by works of the law, but our obedience is a faith response to the gift of grace. We show our love of and faith IN HIM by doing what he commands. We earn or merit nothing by obeying him. It is an act of love. And we want to show Him that we love him by a statement out of His mouth, "if you love me keep my commandments." He DOESN'T say or imply, and we are NOT asserting he is saying, "for you to earn my love or salvation you must work for it or merit it by doing the works I require or the commandments I give."

Brother, I assume you meant Galatians 3:26~"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Our claim to being God’s children is not by the Law, but by laying hold of Christ by faith. When reading Galatians 3 the word faith is used several times, not always in the same sense which should be clear to any sincere student of the scriptures.

We must remember, Paul is writing Gentiles, who are known to be children of God by the evidence of their faith~it does not come by us keeping the law, for that is not the purpose of God's law~verse 24~the law is "our" schoolmaster to show BELIEVERS their need to be justified by the obedience and faith of Jesus Christ, and ONCE we understand this truth, we AS BELIEVERS are no longer under the law IN THIS SENSE, for we will always be under it, as a RULE, to live by for there's no greater set of laws concerning righteousness as God's holy, good and spiritual law.

Those who have listened to the schoolmaster (the law of God) understand clearly faith does not make God’s children, for faith follows regeneration (John 1:13; Galatians 4:6; 5:22).

A man is born again before he believes, loves, or does righteousness (John 3:3; 5:24; 6:44,65; 8:43,47; 10:26; Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthians 2:14-16; Ist John 3:14; 4:7,15; 5:1).

In Galatians 3:26 there is no biblical reason to make this Christ’s faith, for the following text shows its practical sense.

The language no more requires a condition or instrument than Matthew 5:45 or 2nd Corinthians 6:14-18.
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Our faith or lack thereof is what turns the key or not so to speak.
Brother, it DOES as far as God's blessings in our present life of walking with him, but NOT in regeneration~The faith and obedience of Jesus Christ bring us INTO A RELATIONSHIP as sons of God~It allows God to adopt us into his family.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:1-6~"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
We are sons of God by his grace alone through his election of his children by grace...SECURED by God's oath and promises THROUGH CHRIST'S redemption for us redeeming us from the curse of God's law by being made a curse for us~what qualified him to be that perfect lamb of God to be sacrificed for the sins of God's elect was his PERFECT life of obedience.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 07:09:26 by RB »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 07:12:23 »
Yes I’m sorry I meant 3:26.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Why would the KJV be inconsistent here by using faith IN Christ vs Faith OF Christ? If people are saved by the faith OF Christ as you have asserted, why not faith OF Christ in this verse?
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 07:33:10 by Jaime »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 08:37:43 »

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The quote IS scriptually sound, but your application of that quote is summed up to be another gospel! We are saved by grace through faith, and THAT faith is NOT of ourselves, but is Jesus' faith he had as the Son of man! Sir, that's the difference between your gospel and Paul's. Selah.

The condition of being water baptized is not law. As I have said oftentimes before, you do not understand the meaning of law, whether it is the Law of Moses or any other law.The "THAT" in Ephesians 2:8 is not faith; rather it is the whole phrase, "by grace you are saved by faith".  Salvation, not faith, is the gift of God.

The "THAT" in Ephesians 2:8 is not faith; rather it is the whole phrase, "by grace you are saved by faith".  Salvation, not faith, is the gift of God.[/size]

Using RBs only acceptable translation KJ reads.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

There is no way in pea green heaven that the word faith here could possibly be Jesus' faith. There is no reason that God would have needed to send His Son into the world as a mortal to basically cherry pick, as it were,  those who would have an eternity in Heaven. I firmly believe God knows who and who is not going to make it.

While Jesus was our gift and that is true.... the faith in this verse is not "the faith of Jesus"... each of us independently has to come to terms with own own understanding of what He did for us and accept that without question. It is that important.
 
However, if you are happy with your understanding... wonderful. I do not agree. ::frown::

Oh my... where is Kenneth Sublett when he is needed   ::shrug::

Faith is so confusing in its simplicity.

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This would be the most concise biblical definition of "faith." But what else does the Bible say about faith?

The Greek word used most often in the New Testament for "faith" is pistis. It indicates a belief or conviction with the complementary idea of trust. Faith is not a mere intellectual stance, but a belief that leads to action.

Now what do we know of Faith in the above verse of Ephesians 2:8

The Greek Interlinear shows Ephesians 2:8

hē  gar          chariti        este         sesōsmenoi

For by the      grace      you are      being saved,

dia             tēs       pisteōs    kai      touto      ouk      ex      humōn           theou     to      dōron

through      the       faith,      and     that is     not       of       you,    it is     of God    the    gift;

So it simply CANNOT be Jesus's faith here.  It is your faith that is the gift.

And most certainly NOT when it means a belief or conviction with the complementary idea of trust. Faith is not a mere intellectual stance, but a belief that leads to action. 

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 09:31:17 »
Rella, I really couldn't follow your post.  I think that somehow it got all messed up.  But to your "It is your faith that is the gift" in Ephesians 2:8, "faith" is not the gift,  W_S pointed out above in Greek grammar that the gift can be neither grace nor faith since both "grace" and "faith" in the Greek are in the feminine gender while "that" is in the neuter gender.  The gift refers to the entire phrase, "you have been saved by grace through faith".
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 09:35:12 by 4WD »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #30 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 09:49:15 »
In Galatians 3:26 there is no biblical reason to make this Christ’s faith, for the following text shows its practical sense.
That is true for nearly every instance where it refers to faith.  The only exception is when the word "faith" is used in reference to the religious system; and Paul did only very occasionally.  For example it can be argued that "faith" in Ephesians 2:8 is in reference to the religious system of God's plan of salvation.  Clearly. Christ's faith should never be taken as reference to His believing and trusting. In any reference to salvation, Christ spoke in the absolute certainty of knowledge, not belief and trust.

And your inference of "man is born again before he believes, loves, or does righteousness" is nothing more that bad, really bad, interpretation which you force upon yourself because of the false doctrine of Total Depravity which in turn drives your false idea about election.  And the worst part of all of that is the tremendous derogatory implication that forces upon God's character.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 09:55:10 by 4WD »

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #31 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 10:01:06 »
Rella, salvation is the gift BY grace THROUGH FAITH. Grammaticaly the gift HAS to be salvation and ironically or not we have always said it was a gift. Faith is not the gift referenced in Ephesians 2:8. But you are right it is OUR faith, not Christ’s. We cannot be saved without OUR faith. Though Christ’s faithfulness is what makes it possible.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 10:17:19 by Jaime »

Offline RB

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 14:27:06 »
Red, why DOESN'T Galatians 3:26 in the KJV say  “For ye are all the children of God by faith OF Christ Jesus“? By saying faith IN Christ for this passage, it is OUR faith that is the variable. Christ’s faith or faithfulness is constant and not in question.
Brother, I have one more thought to add to my post this morning.

Jaime glad you brought this scripture up~the Holy Spirit through Paul was careful to use the two phrases~" faith OF Christ and faith IN Christ " sometimes in the same verse (Galatians 2:16) knowing they have totally two completely different senses.
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Galatians 2:16~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Anyone who attempts to change "of" to in when reading or teaching Galatians 2:16 is showing his lack of understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ~It is (maybe unintentionally, and most likely it is, or, they are just parroting others corrupt handling of God's word, without even considering the consequences of their teaching) laboring to defeat the redemption secured by God through His Son Jesus Christ, and God will not look lightly upon such teaching and neither should we

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 14:30:08 »
RB, there is neither an IN or an OF in the Greek text.  So there is no such thing as changing "of" to "in".

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Re: Law & Grace - Which?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Oct 16, 2021 - 14:41:20 »
How can I best explain your unattractive character—traits I feel have a tendency to aggravate one’s attention? Is there a possibility that due to your age, you have counterevolved? No offence, please, but if you have counterevolved that would explain why you appear to have reverted back to your adolescent years.
I decided to put this on the back burner until I have studied to answer your prideful post in a manner that becomes a saint. I want to keep my flesh out of my post and answer you in the power of the Spirit of God, to the glory of God...... later.

 

     
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