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Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2011, 05:18:45 AM »
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.
Sinéad~

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2011, 05:18:45 AM »

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2011, 05:29:01 AM »
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.

as you are not able to understand the Scriptures I've given you, there is little hope you will see past this misteaching you have been instructed in...................how exactly does one "make up" what Jesus Himself said?  I showed you what Jesus Himself said, and, yet, you cannot see.  Jesus spoke of this as well.................those who refuse to see...........

.............and, yes, it is a cop-out, but if you do not wish to identify your church group/organization, that's fine.  there are many here who will not..............and given the teachings they espouse...............well...............





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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2011, 05:29:01 AM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2011, 06:39:14 AM »
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16
Yogi Yogi Yogi.

That phrase is not used nor meant to be used as a Proper name.  It is a description - perhaps better translated as the Messianic Assemblies or Synagogues of Messiah.

BTW - when was the last time you planted a wet one on your pastor????

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2011, 06:39:14 AM »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2011, 07:04:09 AM »
Just last Sunday and we went out for lunch afterward.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2011, 07:04:09 AM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline pointmade

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2011, 08:33:57 AM »
Gomer: "Tts 2:11, yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condition of having obedience through faith."

That is a great verse of seeing grace as conditional as you will find in the written Word.

I never realized until it was pointed out to me what Jesus was referring to in John 3:14-15 in His discourse
with Nicodemus when He said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life"

To understand what the Lord is saying to this "teacher of Israel" one must read and understand Numbers
chapter 21:1-9.

Note that "the people spoke against God and Moses" (read why in v, 5),
We note in verse 6 that this did not set well with the Lord and He "sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people and much of the people died."

In verse 7 the people realized that they have SINNED against God and needed a snake bit antidote.
They asked Moses "to pray to the Lord that God take away the serpents."

Well...Moses prayed and God answered, but God set a CONDITION for their SIN.
In verse 8 we read of the snake bit antidote that God demanded for their sin.

Moses, you "make a fiery serpent." OK Lord, I got ya....now what?
"You set it upon a pole," You gotta be kidding me Lord...then what?

The Lord said, "and it shall come to pass that EVERYONE that is bitten (sin),
when he LOOKS upon it, shall live."

You mean all they have to do is LOOK?
Wouldn't it be easier if the people just stayed in their tents and prayed and then I wouldn't have to
come up with a brass snake to set on a pole? jeez!

So anyway...Moses made a serpent, and set it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent
had bitten any man, when he LOOKED upon the serpent of brass, he LIVED."

Anyone want to tell me that to LOOK was not a condition for "EVERYONE" of the Israelites
in the wilderness FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN?

Was this a WORK to LOOK? or a CONDITION of GRACE set forth by God.
Recall Peter's words at Pentecost when the "devout Jews" realized they had sinned against God
by killing His Son?

What was the snake bite sermon that Peter perscribed?
"Repent and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Look" was conditional to remove sin in the wilderness.
"Repent and be baptized everyone of you" (Acts 2:38) is conditional to remove sin today.
As in the wilderness, praying through is not an antidote for sin.
Asking Jesus into your heart is not the perscribed antidote for snake bite this side of the cross.

"If any man is bitten, when he LOOKs upon the serpent of brass he LIVES."
What did Jesus say in John 3:14-15?
Are His words conditional or not?
Have you been snake bit?


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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2011, 08:33:57 AM »



Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2011, 09:52:41 AM »
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  
Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2011, 09:52:41 AM »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2011, 10:17:06 AM »
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2011, 10:40:07 AM »
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  
Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2011, 11:10:59 AM »
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)


It appears to me that when you see "hear His voice" or that God in these last day hath "spoken" you take these to only mean God speaking directly.  Abel speaks from his grave, Heb 11:4, but he does not speak directly to us. Christ is said to have preached to the Gentiles, Eph 2:17, even though Christ did not preach directly to the Gentile Ephesians personally but preached to them through Paul.

One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:
 
(1.) in his written word;

(2.) in the preached gospel;

(3.) in our own consciences;

(4.) in the events of his Providence;

(5.) in the admonitions of our relatives and friends.


THere is nothing in the NT that teaches God speaks directly to men today for the NT shows that He does not.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2011, 11:10:59 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2011, 11:28:41 AM »
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:20:18 PM by gospel »
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2011, 11:28:41 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2011, 12:22:36 PM »
Quote from: gospel

Gomer this Wayne Jackson is a saint a believer like you and me so I hope you didn't go through all this trouble citing his writing as biblical authority.


The key to knowing he himself is off the mark and not hearing from God on this matter is the following statement which translated means I don't know when God stopped speaking but eventually He did.

Quote

•Eventually, however, a change in his method of operation occurred; today he speaks exclusively by means of his Son.

The Son is a Person, He is God.... God is a Person not an inanimate object! The Holy Spirit is also a Person. So we're talking about God in 3 Persons and you and your friends are trying to assert they are mute?

We're talking about God who Created the Universe by speaking, who is the same today, yesterday and forever...yet you're asserting He no longer has a voice?

In addition to that
The Word is the Living Word and you are presenting it as a dead, lifeless word with not even the ability of a 5 year old

In addition to that

How did people in China who at one time had no bible, how did they hear from God, to even want to know Him

If God is not speaking, if Jesus is not speaking if the Holy Spirit is not speaking If The Word of God is not speaking ....

It's only because they are not speaking to you either that or you're not listening

So

I'll ask you again,


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

And ...

If you are Believer led by the Spirit of God

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?


These are very easy questions, the 1st one should be a book, chapter and verse in the bible and the 2nd one is about you, your life and your decisions    



(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.


Another point I wanted to bring from the article:

Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.


This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.


The Holy Spirit is the author of the word and if I am led by the word then I am being led by the Holy Spirit.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2011, 12:43:00 PM »
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.


Quote from: gospel
You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::

Let me point out that your post here to me is completely, totally void of a book, chapter, verse that God speaks directly to anyone today.  It is completely, totally void of any proof, none, zero, zilch, nada, not one bit of evidence provided that God directly speaks to you or anyone else today.  When will you be providing the proof, where is the evidence?


One more time:

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed the way He speaks to man in these lasts days.  Where is your proof, where is your evidence that God speaks to you or anyone else directly?

(2) the word teaches the Christian on how to live a holy life acceptable to God, it gives moral standards to go by as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  I use the bible standards for the choices I make in life.  Where is your proof that God has to speak directly to man as to what profession he is to be in, what person to marry, what friends to have, etc?  

Your argument is dead till you provide the proof.


What if someone came on this forum and said God told them directly that there are no ifs, ands or buts man must be water baptized in order to be saved.  

How are you going to respond to that person?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:55:32 PM by Gomer »

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2011, 12:48:10 PM »
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation. God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.
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Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2011, 12:48:39 PM »
Quote
I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.

Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  ::shrug::

Quote

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?


Quote
Another point I wanted to bring from the article:
Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

Aw-w-w c'mon Gomer, this on requires an application of basic scripture


Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
Matthew 7:20

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1


Can two walk together, except they are agreed?
Amos 3:3

 
Quote
(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.   

So did the bible SPECIFICALLY tell you what profession to get into?

Did it specifically tell you who, by name should be your friends?

Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

Where in the bible does it tell you where you should buy a home? How did you come to decide your home is the specific place the bible is leading you to or did you just choose it in and of yourself or did God direct your path in choosing your home?

Yes the bible tells us what kind of people would make good friends....

But where in the bible does it tell you exactly who to pick as a friend?

In other words for example Johnny doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, goes to church every week, studies and obeys the word and Samuel is just like Johnny in all of these ways ...yet Sammy is your friend and Johnny is not....

In fact there are a lot of people like Sammy even in the city where you live and the church that you attend, even in the very neighborhood where you live ....so the question is

Where in the bible did it tell you to choose Sammy as a friend and not Johnny or any other person?

If you've attended College, where in the bible does it tell you which College to choose?

In addition

I'm sure you pray?

In praying do you ask God for answers?

Do you expect Him to answer you?

Does He ever answer you and if He does how? Does he tell you to turn to a specific Book Chapter and Verse for your answer or does He directly answer your prayer by speaking to you?  ::reading::
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:58:01 PM by gospel »
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2011, 01:05:47 PM »
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation.

There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.


Quote from: Debbie_55
God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

There's another condition you speak about.  Can one be saved if he does not me the condition of accepting God's free gift of salvation?


Quote from: Debbie_55
If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.

You keeping arguing there are no conditions, but do a good job in listing conditions as above you list the conditions of believing and confessing and accepting God's free gift.  Heb 5:9 Jesus made obedience to Him a condition of being saved.  Obedience is a condtion Christ has layed on man and it  is up to man to meet it.

Is belief a choice man must make to be saved, but belief is not a condition to be saved?  Is this your position?