GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Law vs. Grace  (Read 42440 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #105 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:54:13 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #105 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:54:13 »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #106 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:05:42 »
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #106 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:05:42 »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #107 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:15:58 »
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.

You should get 10 manna for that excellent response but....I can only give you one for the time being

Great response!

It's amazing how some people adhere to doctrines that are so conspicuously inconsistent and self contradictory

We are called to be Led by the Spirit

But How can one be led by the Spirit if they do not hear or listen

The Power of Faith comes by SPIRITUALLY hearing, what God is saying in His Word

A person who does not hear spiritually, as you correctly stated, is spiritually malnourished   

 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #107 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:15:58 »

Offline Debbie_55

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2788
  • Manna: 168
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #108 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:17:02 »
Gomer and Jimmy, unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe, being justified freely, given freely by Jesus, given by the calling of God. Please if there are conditions would you list them for all of us and give scripture that states the word condition. Salvation is a free gift from God as his grace also as Jesus already paid the price so we could be set free to receive freely that gift of grace.


Rom_5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Act_15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act_18:27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Rom_1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom_3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom_5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co_1:4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Gal_1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal_1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Gal_2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph_3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

2Ti_1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit_2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit_3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

1Pe_5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #108 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:17:02 »

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #109 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:44:42 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #109 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:44:42 »



Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #110 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:51:50 »
Gomer and Jimmy, unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe, being justified freely, given freely by Jesus, given by the calling of God. Please if there are conditions would you list them for all of us and give scripture that states the word condition. Salvation is a free gift from God as his grace also as Jesus already paid the price so we could be set free to receive freely that gift of grace.


Rom_5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Act_15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act_18:27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Rom_1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom_3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom_5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co_1:4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Gal_1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal_1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Gal_2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph_3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

2Ti_1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit_2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit_3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

1Pe_5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



You do not see faith as being a condition?  One can receive God's grace while faith-less?


You said "....unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe..."

You said you see no conditions BUT you see grace as a free gift through obedience through faith.  So obedience through faith is a condition that must be met to receive God's grace.  God's grace hath appeared to all men, Tts 2:11, yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condition of having obedience through faith.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #110 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:51:50 »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #111 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:56:20 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #112 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:20:34 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11614
  • Manna: 736
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #113 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:36:42 »
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #113 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:36:42 »

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #114 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:42:32 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.

And well that they did not wait for that direct line.  If they did, they would likely have heard the same cacophony that some here seem to hear.  ::smile::

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #115 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:20:40 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.

Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  
Romans 8:14


« Last Edit: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:28:23 by gospel »

Offline Sinead

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 861
  • Manna: 46
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #116 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 15:39:40 »
Sinead said:

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
===========================================================

1st Corinthians 15:34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not:  for some have not the knowledge of God:  I speak this to your shame.  35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  and with what body do they come?  36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:  37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest; not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:  38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.  39) All flesh is not the same flesh:  but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.  40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:  but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars:  for one star differeth from another star in glory.  42) So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  44) It is sown a natural body; is is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  47) The first man is of the earth, earthy:  the second man is the Lord from heaven.  48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  50)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53) For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
===============================================================================

Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that hade the power of death, that is, the devil; 15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation of the sins of the people.  18) For in the he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
===============================================================================

God the Son, took on the form of man (flesh and blood) when He came to earth to fulfill the Law, and to serve as the Perfect Lamb which would pay the price for the sins of mankind, and establish God the Father's salvation plan.  So, yes, it is true that when He was here on earth, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, was flesh and blood.  His body was corruptable, weak, subject to illness, injury, afflictions, hunger, cold, temptations.  However, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, with His victory over death and the grave, when He again ascended to the Throne of God, was no longer a "corruptable body," but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are One.  The Holy Trinity; three persons in one, in perfect harmony.
===============================================================================

I notice that you did not speak of which church group/denomination/organization you belong to/fellowship with, and I have to wonder why?  Surely you are not ashamed of your membership/affiliation are you?  You should not be.......no one should.




flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom - Jesus said He had flesh and bones not flesh and blood.

I'm still waiting for scripture to prove that Jesus did not ascend in His new body.
Jesus very clearly told his discples - I am not a spirit, handle me and see - I have flesh and bones, a spirit does not.
Jesus even ate with them which proves this. Jesus will carry the nail scars in His hands for all eternity - how could a spirit do this?

Quote
but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.
Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.


« Last Edit: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 16:25:32 by Sinead »

Offline Sinead

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 861
  • Manna: 46
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #117 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 15:46:16 »
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16

 ::applause::

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #118 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 19:26:47 »
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.

Had to circle back and give you some more manna for that response!
 ::amen!::

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #119 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:15:22 »
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?


Offline Sinead

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 861
  • Manna: 46
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #120 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:18:45 »
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #121 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:29:01 »
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.

as you are not able to understand the Scriptures I've given you, there is little hope you will see past this misteaching you have been instructed in...................how exactly does one "make up" what Jesus Himself said?  I showed you what Jesus Himself said, and, yet, you cannot see.  Jesus spoke of this as well.................those who refuse to see...........

.............and, yes, it is a cop-out, but if you do not wish to identify your church group/organization, that's fine.  there are many here who will not..............and given the teachings they espouse...............well...............





Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #122 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 07:39:14 »
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16
Yogi Yogi Yogi.

That phrase is not used nor meant to be used as a Proper name.  It is a description - perhaps better translated as the Messianic Assemblies or Synagogues of Messiah.

BTW - when was the last time you planted a wet one on your pastor????

Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11614
  • Manna: 736
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #123 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 08:04:09 »
Just last Sunday and we went out for lunch afterward.

Offline pointmade

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Manna: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #124 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 09:33:57 »
Gomer: "Tts 2:11, yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condition of having obedience through faith."

That is a great verse of seeing grace as conditional as you will find in the written Word.

I never realized until it was pointed out to me what Jesus was referring to in John 3:14-15 in His discourse
with Nicodemus when He said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life"

To understand what the Lord is saying to this "teacher of Israel" one must read and understand Numbers
chapter 21:1-9.

Note that "the people spoke against God and Moses" (read why in v, 5),
We note in verse 6 that this did not set well with the Lord and He "sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people and much of the people died."

In verse 7 the people realized that they have SINNED against God and needed a snake bit antidote.
They asked Moses "to pray to the Lord that God take away the serpents."

Well...Moses prayed and God answered, but God set a CONDITION for their SIN.
In verse 8 we read of the snake bit antidote that God demanded for their sin.

Moses, you "make a fiery serpent." OK Lord, I got ya....now what?
"You set it upon a pole," You gotta be kidding me Lord...then what?

The Lord said, "and it shall come to pass that EVERYONE that is bitten (sin),
when he LOOKS upon it, shall live."

You mean all they have to do is LOOK?
Wouldn't it be easier if the people just stayed in their tents and prayed and then I wouldn't have to
come up with a brass snake to set on a pole? jeez!

So anyway...Moses made a serpent, and set it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent
had bitten any man, when he LOOKED upon the serpent of brass, he LIVED."

Anyone want to tell me that to LOOK was not a condition for "EVERYONE" of the Israelites
in the wilderness FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN?

Was this a WORK to LOOK? or a CONDITION of GRACE set forth by God.
Recall Peter's words at Pentecost when the "devout Jews" realized they had sinned against God
by killing His Son?

What was the snake bite sermon that Peter perscribed?
"Repent and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Look" was conditional to remove sin in the wilderness.
"Repent and be baptized everyone of you" (Acts 2:38) is conditional to remove sin today.
As in the wilderness, praying through is not an antidote for sin.
Asking Jesus into your heart is not the perscribed antidote for snake bite this side of the cross.

"If any man is bitten, when he LOOKs upon the serpent of brass he LIVES."
What did Jesus say in John 3:14-15?
Are His words conditional or not?
Have you been snake bit?


Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #125 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 10:52:41 »
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  
Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #126 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 11:17:06 »
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #127 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 11:40:07 »
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  
Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #128 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:10:59 »
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)


It appears to me that when you see "hear His voice" or that God in these last day hath "spoken" you take these to only mean God speaking directly.  Abel speaks from his grave, Heb 11:4, but he does not speak directly to us. Christ is said to have preached to the Gentiles, Eph 2:17, even though Christ did not preach directly to the Gentile Ephesians personally but preached to them through Paul.

One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:
 
(1.) in his written word;

(2.) in the preached gospel;

(3.) in our own consciences;

(4.) in the events of his Providence;

(5.) in the admonitions of our relatives and friends.


THere is nothing in the NT that teaches God speaks directly to men today for the NT shows that He does not.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #129 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:28:41 »
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:20:18 by gospel »

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #130 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:22:36 »
Quote from: gospel

Gomer this Wayne Jackson is a saint a believer like you and me so I hope you didn't go through all this trouble citing his writing as biblical authority.


The key to knowing he himself is off the mark and not hearing from God on this matter is the following statement which translated means I don't know when God stopped speaking but eventually He did.

Quote

•Eventually, however, a change in his method of operation occurred; today he speaks exclusively by means of his Son.

The Son is a Person, He is God.... God is a Person not an inanimate object! The Holy Spirit is also a Person. So we're talking about God in 3 Persons and you and your friends are trying to assert they are mute?

We're talking about God who Created the Universe by speaking, who is the same today, yesterday and forever...yet you're asserting He no longer has a voice?

In addition to that
The Word is the Living Word and you are presenting it as a dead, lifeless word with not even the ability of a 5 year old

In addition to that

How did people in China who at one time had no bible, how did they hear from God, to even want to know Him

If God is not speaking, if Jesus is not speaking if the Holy Spirit is not speaking If The Word of God is not speaking ....

It's only because they are not speaking to you either that or you're not listening

So

I'll ask you again,


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

And ...

If you are Believer led by the Spirit of God

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?


These are very easy questions, the 1st one should be a book, chapter and verse in the bible and the 2nd one is about you, your life and your decisions    



(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.


Another point I wanted to bring from the article:

Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.


This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.


The Holy Spirit is the author of the word and if I am led by the word then I am being led by the Holy Spirit.

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #131 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:43:00 »
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.


Quote from: gospel
You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::

Let me point out that your post here to me is completely, totally void of a book, chapter, verse that God speaks directly to anyone today.  It is completely, totally void of any proof, none, zero, zilch, nada, not one bit of evidence provided that God directly speaks to you or anyone else today.  When will you be providing the proof, where is the evidence?


One more time:

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed the way He speaks to man in these lasts days.  Where is your proof, where is your evidence that God speaks to you or anyone else directly?

(2) the word teaches the Christian on how to live a holy life acceptable to God, it gives moral standards to go by as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  I use the bible standards for the choices I make in life.  Where is your proof that God has to speak directly to man as to what profession he is to be in, what person to marry, what friends to have, etc?  

Your argument is dead till you provide the proof.


What if someone came on this forum and said God told them directly that there are no ifs, ands or buts man must be water baptized in order to be saved.  

How are you going to respond to that person?
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:55:32 by Gomer »

Offline Debbie_55

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2788
  • Manna: 168
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #132 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:48:10 »
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation. God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #133 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:48:39 »
Quote
I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.

Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  ::shrug::

Quote

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?


Quote
Another point I wanted to bring from the article:
Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

Aw-w-w c'mon Gomer, this on requires an application of basic scripture


Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
Matthew 7:20

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1


Can two walk together, except they are agreed?
Amos 3:3

 
Quote
(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.   

So did the bible SPECIFICALLY tell you what profession to get into?

Did it specifically tell you who, by name should be your friends?

Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

Where in the bible does it tell you where you should buy a home? How did you come to decide your home is the specific place the bible is leading you to or did you just choose it in and of yourself or did God direct your path in choosing your home?

Yes the bible tells us what kind of people would make good friends....

But where in the bible does it tell you exactly who to pick as a friend?

In other words for example Johnny doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, goes to church every week, studies and obeys the word and Samuel is just like Johnny in all of these ways ...yet Sammy is your friend and Johnny is not....

In fact there are a lot of people like Sammy even in the city where you live and the church that you attend, even in the very neighborhood where you live ....so the question is

Where in the bible did it tell you to choose Sammy as a friend and not Johnny or any other person?

If you've attended College, where in the bible does it tell you which College to choose?

In addition

I'm sure you pray?

In praying do you ask God for answers?

Do you expect Him to answer you?

Does He ever answer you and if He does how? Does he tell you to turn to a specific Book Chapter and Verse for your answer or does He directly answer your prayer by speaking to you?  ::reading::
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:58:01 by gospel »

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #134 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:05:47 »
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation.

There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.


Quote from: Debbie_55
God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

There's another condition you speak about.  Can one be saved if he does not me the condition of accepting God's free gift of salvation?


Quote from: Debbie_55
If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.

You keeping arguing there are no conditions, but do a good job in listing conditions as above you list the conditions of believing and confessing and accepting God's free gift.  Heb 5:9 Jesus made obedience to Him a condition of being saved.  Obedience is a condtion Christ has layed on man and it  is up to man to meet it.

Is belief a choice man must make to be saved, but belief is not a condition to be saved?  Is this your position?

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #135 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:30:09 »
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #136 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:39:03 »
Quote from: gospel
Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  ::shrug::

Sorry, this response does not work, it is a cop out.  I am not an atheist yet I want proof from you.  You demand proof from others yet will you will not give any yourself.  You claim God speaks directly to people yet provide no proof but expect people to just believe you anyway.  Again, your argument is dead without any proof, with no evidence.

Quote from: gospel
Quote

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?

I have not argued that God does not still speak, the question is the means by which He speaks.  Does He speak directly or through His word?  Obviously He can speak through His word, you have not provided any proof He speaks directly to people today.

Quote from: gospel

Aw-w-w c'mon Gomer, this on requires an application of basic scripture


Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
Matthew 7:20

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1


Can two walk together, except they are agreed?
Amos 3:3

Now you are quoting verses but not one provides any proof that God still speaks directly to you or anyone else directly.

Quote from: gospel
So did the bible SPECIFICALLY tell you what profession to get into?

No.  It does not tell anyone what profession they should be in, but the bible gives moral outlines in matters that Christians should not engage in therefore Gomer cannot be a male prostitute.

Quote from: gospel
Did it specifically tell you who, by name should be your friends?

No, but the bible tells me being around bad people can influence me to to bad things.


Quote from: gospel
Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

I live where I was born, it is where my family, relatives and friends are so I chose to stay here.

WHere did you get the idea that God has to directly speak to people and tell them what to do for a living, what friends to choose or where to live?

Quote from: gospel
Where in the bible does it tell you where you should buy a home? How did you come to decide your home is the specific place the bible is leading you to or did you just choose it in and of yourself or did God direct your path in choosing your home?


I can buy a house anywhere I choose to, or least can afford to.

Again, where do you get the idea that one can only live where God directly tells people to live?


Quote from: gosepl
Yes the bible tells us what kind of people would make good friends....

But where in the bible does it tell you exactly who to pick as a friend?

Again, where do you get the idea that the only friends I can have are the ones God directly tells me I can have?

Quote from: gospel
In other words for example Johnny doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, goes to church every week, studies and obeys the word and Samuel is just like Johnny in all of these ways ...yet Sammy is your friend and Johnny is not....

Maybe because I have do not know nor ever met Samuel.

 I meet good moral religious people all the time but they are not all my best friends. Some appeal to me more than others because I like some personalities better than others types, they may share is the same interests or hobbies as I do, they may live closer to me so I see them more.

Quote from: gospel
In fact there are a lot of people like Sammy even in the city where you live and the church that you attend, even in the very neighborhood where you live ....so the question is

Where in the bible did it tell you to choose Sammy as a friend and not Johnny or any other person?

If you've attended College, where in the bible does it tell you which College to choose?

In addition

I'm sure you pray?

In praying do you ask God for answers?

Do you expect Him to answer you?

Does He ever answer you and if He does how? Does he tell you to turn to a specific Book Chapter and Verse for your answer or does He directly answer your prayer by speaking to you?  ::reading::

God's word does not tell me specifically where to live or specific friends am I to have nor does God speak directly to people and tell them all these specifics.   Again, where do you get the idea that God has a specific place for me to live and specific friends to have?  You do not get this from the bible so you must be making this up in your own mind.




Again, when will you provide the proof, provide any evidence that God speaks directly to man today?

You continue to ask question of me but refuse to answer my request.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #137 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:08:00 »
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #138 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:27:39 »
Quote
Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  I don't know, what do you think?

Quote
Sorry, this response does not work, it is a cop out.  I am not an atheist yet I want proof from you.  You demand proof from others yet will you will not give any yourself.  You claim God speaks directly to people yet provide no proof but expect people to just believe you anyway.  Again, your argument is dead without any proof, with no evidence
.

I am not asking or demanding proof from you...I'm trying to ascertain how a Spirit led person is led to choose a profession, a home, a spouse and friends

Since being led by the Spirit means GOD IS LEADING YOU, I'm simply asking you that if God is not speaking directly to you in these matters, how is he indirectly leading you through the bible


Quote
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?

I have not argued that God does not still speak, the question is the means by which He speaks.  Does He speak directly or through His word?  Obviously He can speak through His word, you have not provided any proof He speaks directly to people today.

Yet in your zeal you missed the point completely...
I'll repeat it

God spoke through the patriarchs ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

God spoke through the angels ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

God spoke through the prophets ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

NOW

God speaks through His Son...correct?

That means  ...in other words,

God spoke to Jesus and Jesus speaks to God's people...correct?

With one added difference, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit whom He said would only speak those things He has said...correct?

Now I'm pretty sure you believe Jesus is Alive...don't you?

If you believe that Jesus is Alive then what I'm saying to you is

God did not change His Method,

He is still speaking!

The difference He is not speaking through the patriarchs, through angels or prophets instead, He is speaking to us through His Son and On behalf of the Son, the Holy Spirit speaks to us as well!

That is how we are Spirit led! The Holy Spirit says go here, you go here He says don't go there...then you do not go there, Holy Spirit says do this then you do what He said, When He says don't do this, then you do not do it

at least that's how leading usually works  ::shrug::


Quote
Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

Quote
I live where I was born, it is where my family, relatives and friends are so I chose to stay here.

WHere did you get the idea that God has to directly speak to people and tell them what to do for a living, what friends to choose or where to live?

It's not my own idea, it's what the bible says

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

God's children are led by His Spirit so....if your profession, where you live and who you marry are all your own choices that you have made and not prayed to God asking Him for direction, guidance and answers as to your choices...
....then you are leading yourself and merely expect Him to follow you instead of Him leading you and you following Him

You said the bible leads you, so all I'm asking you where in the bible does it tell you what profession God has ordained for you and what to city has God called you to do His Will on earth.

Bottom line... either God leads you or He does not and if He does lead you He has to speak to your heart, the only thing left is for you to hear Him.

The question is ...

Are you listening or are you just leading yourself


Quote
Again, where do you get the idea that the only friends I can have are the ones God directly tells me I can have?

Because you are Spirit led believer!

If you are not Spirit led you can be friends with anyone you desire?
Quote
God's word does not tell me specifically where to live or specific friends am I to have nor does God speak directly to people and tell them all these specifics.   Again, where do you get the idea that God has a specific place for me to live and specific friends to have?  You do not get this from the bible so you must be making this up in your own mind.

Because a Spirit led believer will not live somewhere that God has not directed them to live...they would not be comfortable.
They would say things like ...it's something about this house that doesn't suit me or there is something about this neighborhood that I am drawn to

A more extreme example is: I've been having a consistent yearning towards Peru or Haiti or Nigeria or India
I believe God has a work for me to do there

Unfortunately though there is no Book, Chapter or Verse in the bible that says Gomer or gospel ...go to Nigeria I have a work for you there...is there?

Another example: Lately I've been moved with compassion towards those young men who's lives are caught up in the penal system. Every day my heart is consistently aching towards young men, most of whom grew up without a father, I pray about it and find myself in tears ...I believe God is telling me to go into prison ministry.

Again unfortunately there is no Book, Chapter or Verse that says Gomer or gospel I want you to go into prison ministry I have a work for you to do there.

« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:41:42 by gospel »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #139 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:29:35 »
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

And thank you Jimmy for your kind, thoughtful, spirit filled words for

 you dear sir, are a true saint  

At least I believe you are  ::tippinghat::

« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:36:09 by gospel »

 

     
anything