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Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #35 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:49:03 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

No, it's not a condition, it's an action as confessing is an action of the mouth speaking from the condition of your heart.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #35 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:49:03 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #36 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:56:46 »
Scripture speaks for itself

Yes it does and it seldom says anything close to what you say.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #36 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:56:46 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #37 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:58:14 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

No, it's not a condition, it's an action as confessing is an action of the mouth speaking from the condition of your heart.

So the "if - then" statement is not a conditional.  So much for rational discourse.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #37 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:58:14 »

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #38 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 15:13:43 »
"if" you perform this action of confessing then the condition of the action becomes prevalent in your own life that your sins will be forgiven. One is emotionalism and the other an action you take upon the emotionalism as if it is truly from your heart or just that as being an emotion in the moment. There were no conditions in the law, but only that of acting and applying on the law to be made sinless before the Father. Same today as it was in the time of the law given to Moses as all summed up in the greatest commandment of love which is not a condition, but an application.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #38 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 15:13:43 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #39 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 16:33:01 »
What a pile of babble.  I never ceased to be amazed at the linguistic gynmastics to which some folks will go to avoid the obvious.  As I said, so much for rational discussion.

And of course there were conditions in the Law--all sorts of conditions.  The Law was composed of a whole bunch of conditions. There were a whole range of punishments depending upon the trespass committed.  If you committed some sins you would be put to death.  I would call that a condition.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #39 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 16:33:01 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #40 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 23:40:31 »
Scripture speaks for itself

Yes it does and it seldom says anything close to what you say.

Please try to understand I can't take a response of this type seriously because

I'm looking forward to you extending the courtesy of responding to the scriptures in my posts, point by point, respectfully in the same manner I answered you, using scriptures....answering you, point by point.

You can ignore me but
At least address the scriptures..eh? ::shrug::

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #40 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 23:40:31 »

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #41 on: Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 23:53:29 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #42 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 00:13:36 »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #43 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:31:30 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!

If it comforts a person to believe there is a formula, or some type of cookie cutter, one size fits all, step by step method or procedure for being Saved than so be it...
However what scripture clearly shows is that people came to Jesus in as many different ways as there were people who came to Him.

So the tax collector came differently than the blind man, who came differently than the leper, who came differently than the woman with the issue of blood, who came differently than the Samaritan woman at the well, as the thief on the cross and so forth and so on....
....And as it was then, so it is now, each of us comes to Jesus according to how we need Him, where we are in our own lives, in our own way and He meets us there

...some come from a jail cell, some come from a sick bed, some come as financial tragedy strikes, some come as a family emergency looms, some come as a doctor pronounces dire prognosis, some come from a fox hole, some come while a plane is crash diving or while a ship is sinking, whatever the case may be, whatever situation in which we find ourselves in our own individual lives

Each with our own sin, in our own way calling out His Name!

Furthermore
Saying we do not ask Jesus into our hearts is quite presumptuous because when we call Jesus, that is indeed where He comes, by His Holy Spirit to take up residence.

So whether we say Jesus I need you, thank you for forgiving me,  I give my life to you or we say Jesus come into my heart....

...in either case, the end result is

 He takes up residence,

In Our Hearts, Where we believe, knowing that He, having heard us, has answered, and is there, in our hearts...and believing that results in Righteousness



« Last Edit: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:23:05 by gospel »

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #43 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:31:30 »

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #44 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:57:14 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!

If it comforts a person to believe there is a formula, or some type of cookie cutter, one size fits all, step by step method or procedure for be Saved than so be it...





Nope. There is only one way to be saved and christians shouldn't be confusing or lying to the unsaved regardless of whether it 'comforts' them or not - and why it would comfort them I have no idea.
Unsaved people need to know that they are going to hell without Christ. They need to know the truth and they need to know that they need to accept Christ's sacrifice and the fact that He died and paid for their sins instead of them.
They need to believe and accept Him as their saviour.
They don't need to be told that all they need to do is 'ask Jesus into their hearts' which is totally unbiblical.

Offline Loner

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #45 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 03:18:08 »
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself

Gospel..the verse you quoted about The Lord knocking at our hearts door has nothing to do with unsaved people..He is addressing the lukewarm church.(Rev 3)

It is important that the unsaved (or lost)  acknowledge that they are a sinner..that their sin separates them from the Father and therefore stand in need of redemption.. without it they will spend eternity in hell..They need to turn away from the sin that they loved and detest (hate) that sin...having done that they then accept the "life" that the Lord Jesus offers. It is not scriptural to say that they should "ask the Lord into their heart"

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #46 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:07:26 »
who said this?

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.
============================================

 rofl

============================================

........and when we realize our need for Jesus, and repent of our sins, do we "accept Him as our Saviour?"  Or, do we "ask Him to come into our lives and be our Saviour and Lord?

============================================

Throughout this entire process, are we not "asking" Jesus to forgive our sins, "asking" Jesus to make us whole, "asking" Jesus to cleanse our hearts, "asking" Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord?  The blood of Jesus Christ;  does it cleanse our hearts of sin?  The Holy Ghost; does He reside in our hearts?  

============================================

Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth……………………..9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved……………..13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

============================================

So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


How exactly is "asking Jesus to come into our hearts" a word game coined by Christians over the years, and "accepting" Him as our Lord and Saviour not a word game coined by Christians over the years?

============================================

 rofl (ya just gotta love it, ya really do.............sigh.............)








Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #47 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:08:39 »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.

The phrase "accepting Him [Jesus] as our savior" is in fact another of those "terms" that Christians have coined throughout the years.  There really is no command that we must "accept Him as our savior".  I don't not think there is even a statement that Christians have "accepted Him as our savior".  Interestingly, there is the statement by Paul that Jeus has accepted us and we should accept others, i.e., other Christians, as He accepted us.

Both of these terms or phrases are a distortion of what the Bible actually says about what one must do to be saved.  I think that both are vain attempts to make the Bible line up with some prevailing and erroneous theology concerning salvation.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #48 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:13:22 »
OY!!! why is every one SOOOO intent on making this issue MECHANISTIC??  

We are saved by RELATIONSHIP, not arguing over whether this or that action is or is not a "work" or a "condition." It is focusing on the WRONG THING.

Yes we need to be convicted of sin.
Yes we need to repent.
Yes we need to accept God as our Lord.
Yes we need to obey Him.

But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #49 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:14:21 »
The phrase "accepting Him [Jesus] as our savior" is in fact another of those "terms" that Christians have coined throughout the years.  There really is no command that we must "accept Him as our savior".  I don't not think there is even a statement that Christians have "accepted Him as our savior".  Interestingly, there is the statement by Paul that Jeus has accepted us and we should accept others, i.e., other Christians, as He accepted us.

Both of these terms or phrases are a distortion of what the Bible actually says about what one must do to be saved.  I think that both are vain attempts to make the Bible line up with some prevailing and erroneous theology concerning salvation.
===========================================

 rofl ::noworries::

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #50 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:16:26 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #51 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:25:38 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #52 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:28:25 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #53 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:42:59 »


So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


We are not asking Him to "come into" anything or anywhere. To "call upon the name of the Lord" is to appeal to His power and authority.

In a similer manner, the phrase, not so much used anymore, "Stop in the name of the law", was the policeman's ordering the person to stop and desist with the command being backed the power and authority of the law of the land.

Thus when we "call upon the name of the Lord"  or do or say something "in the name of the Lord", we are appealling to the Lord; we are petitioning the Lord.  When we baptize another "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" we are calling upon the authority and the power of Jesus to accomplish what has been promised.

Jesus, in speaking to His disciples in John 14 said, "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #54 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:48:10 »
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.

No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #55 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:53:07 »
Matthew 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:  and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, even unto the end of the world.
===========================================

Did Jesus lie to us?  Or, is He WITH US ALWAY, even unto the end of the world?

===========================================

1st Corinthians 3:16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in  you?  

===========================================

So, I'm guessing some here believe that the Spirit of God that dwells within us, dwells in some place other than our hearts?  Is that about right?

===========================================

Matthew 9:3)  And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.  4)  And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?  5)  For whether is easier, to say Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

===========================================

So, I'm just guessing here, but there are some here who believe that our sins do not come from/reside in our hearts?  These sins that Jesus forgives us of/cleanses us of have nothing to do with our hearts?  Is that about right?

===========================================

Psalm 51:6) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:  and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.  7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:  wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.  8) Make my to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.  9) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.  10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit with in me.

============================================

So, again, I'm just guessing here, but, there are some here who do not believe that it is our hearts that God is interested in cleansing, and it's our hearts where all sin resides, and it's our hearts that the precious blood of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, that was shed on Calvary's cross that cleanses our hearts?  Is that about right?

============================================
 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::pondering::


p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #56 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:56:14 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #57 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 07:07:49 »
Quote
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.
No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....
It is not that I disagree with this point. I DO agree with it.

What I take issue with is the tendancy to get caught up in how you intrepret this or that and NOT looking at HIM who is the Author and Perfector of faith. He has told us what to do, but to do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM is pretty worthless.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #58 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 07:16:37 »
Quote
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.
No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....
It is not that I disagree with this point. I DO agree with it.

What I take issue with is the tendancy to get caught up in how you intrepret this or that and NOT looking at HIM who is the Author and Perfector of faith. He has told us what to do, but to do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM is pretty worthless.

I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #59 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:19:03 »
Quote from: Debbie_55


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

So one can be saved even if he does not believe with the heart and confess with the mouth?


Quote from: Debbie_55
Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

God's grace has appeared to all men yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condtions GOd has made necessary to receive His grace.

You say "All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us.... "

So is believing and confessing  conditions that must be met to receive grace or can one receive grace as an unbeliever?


Quote from: Debbie_55
John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So one does not have to enter the door, not believe and not confess yet still receive God's grace?  Not possible at all.

Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.



[

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #60 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:41:47 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #61 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:41:55 »
Quote from: gospel
Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

One has to first meet the conditions of coming to Christ for one has to first  "love me, he will keep my words".  When man first meets this condtion then They will come to man with forgiveness of sins with an abiding indwelling of the Holy Ghost through the word..


Quote from: gospel
Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

THe context here is that the church of the Laodiceans had become lukewarm and had put Christ out of His own church.  In one of the saddest pictures in all the bible Christ is standing pleading to be let back in.  " If any man hear my voice and open the door". Before Christ would come to them with pardon, they would have to first come to Him by hearing His voice and open the door.

Christ does not come to people unconditionally, people have to first meet the condition of coming to Christ by loving Him (Jn 14:15), keeping His word, hearing His voice, opening the door for Him.


Quote from: gospel
There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

One has to first come to Christ by believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth, then Christ will come with forgiveness of sins/salvation.


Quote from: gospel
Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

Faith is a condtion one first has to meet before Christ may dwell in the heart.

Quote from: gospel

And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8:37

Belief was a condition that has to be met before one could be water baptized and receive forgiveness of sins.



Quote from: gospel
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Scripture speaks for itself

Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said.

Acts 2:21--------------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38--------------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins.


Rom 10:13----------call upon the name of the LOrd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Rom 10:9,10-------believe and confess with the mouth>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/reckoned righteous

So one has to first met the condtion of calling upon the Lord by believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized then Christ will come to him with pardon of sins/salvation.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #62 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:47:32 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.  Not doing as Christ has said is ignoring Christ.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

One cannot have a 'personal relationship' with Christ where they can call Christ their "Lord" if they do not the things which Christ says.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #63 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:53:41 »
Quote
When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.
Not necessarily.  One can go thru all the actions of obedience and have full mental agreement with the claims of the gospel but never really personally encounter the ONE who calls us to HIMSELF.

That results in nothing. No change. No salvation. He is merely obeying written words on a page.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #64 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:05:03 »
Quote
When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.
Not necessarily.  One can go thru all the actions of obedience and have full mental agreement with the claims of the gospel but never really personally encounter the ONE who calls us to HIMSELF.

That results in nothing. No change. No salvation. He is merely obeying written words on a page.


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #65 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:05:28 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #66 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:17:22 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #67 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:19:05 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #68 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:19:55 »
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself

Gospel..the verse you quoted about The Lord knocking at our hearts door has nothing to do with unsaved people..He is addressing the lukewarm church.(Rev 3)

Yeah and so what's the point?

Are you trying to insinuate that Jesus is not looking for His sheep and waiting for His sheep to turn and come to Him?

Are you trying to infer that the Holy Spirit is not working on the heart of the unbeliever?

Are you trying to tell us that The Holy Spirit does not convict those who do not believe in Jesus?

The fact of the matter no matter how you slice or dice it is Jesus comes into the heart of the unbeliever at the point of belief and faith in Him


It's a heartfelt experience whereby one opens their heart to Jesus and allows Him to come in and make His abode

Quote
It is important that the unsaved (or lost)  acknowledge that they are a sinner..that their sin separates them from the Father and therefore stand in need of redemption.. without it they will spend eternity in hell..They need to turn away from the sin that they loved and detest (hate) that sin...having done that they then accept the "life" that the Lord Jesus offers. It is not scriptural to say that they should "ask the Lord into their heart"

You're right we do have to acknowledge our sin, but aside from that there is no cookie cutter but I will say the same thing to you as I stated to Sinead...


First of all turning to Jesus is in fact repenting, turning from and acknowledging your need for a Savior, for Salvation is in fact acknowledging your sin because that is in fact what you need Salvation from, "the wrath of God, against sin"

Acknowledging sin is in fact the difference between the rich young ruler in Luke 18 and the rich tax collector Zacchaeus in Luke 19

The rich man in Luke 18 said he was blameless in regards to the Law
The rich man in Luke 19 accused by religious people of being unworthy of Jesus presence in his house, was repentant and acknowledged his need for forgiveness

The woman caught in adultery was guilty, caught in the act, where in the scripture does she say anything repentant to Jesus?

The woman at the well had been married 5 times and living with a man to who she was not married...where does she say anything repentant to Jesus?

Where does he chide either of them to do so?

Peter repented directly to Jesus, face to face and how did Peter repent?

The fact of the matter is, you know, I know we all know we are sinners, we all know where we fall short, and we know we fall short in some areas we do not quite understand.

More importantly Jesus knows.
In fact Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves,

Just look at Peter!

Jesus knew he would fall short, sin before Peter even knew it. And as we all know Peter sincerely believed he would never deny Jesus.

Jesus already knew he would  

That is because Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves,

and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man. John 2:25

He made us, He knows what is in us, He knows the areas of our strengths and our weaknesses


So ...
Turning to Jesus is acknowledging you are helpless to Save yourself in any way and you need help in every way, even in ways you do not quite understand or are aware of

The end result is that Jesus comes into your heart...Salvation is not a technical procedure, or insert tab a into slot b, step by step instructional video

If a person is contrite, broken down within themselves and asks Jesus to come into their heart...that is all that is required, how that can even be a point of debate is beyond me  ::frown::


Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #69 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:22:32 »
who said this?

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.
============================================

 rofl

============================================

........and when we realize our need for Jesus, and repent of our sins, do we "accept Him as our Saviour?"  Or, do we "ask Him to come into our lives and be our Saviour and Lord?

============================================

Throughout this entire process, are we not "asking" Jesus to forgive our sins, "asking" Jesus to make us whole, "asking" Jesus to cleanse our hearts, "asking" Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord?  The blood of Jesus Christ;  does it cleanse our hearts of sin?  The Holy Ghost; does He reside in our hearts?  

============================================

Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth……………………..9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved……………..13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

============================================

So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


How exactly is "asking Jesus to come into our hearts" a word game coined by Christians over the years, and "accepting" Him as our Lord and Saviour not a word game coined by Christians over the years?

============================================

 rofl (ya just gotta love it, ya really do.............sigh.............)



Don't ya

 ::nodding::

Manna to you