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Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #70 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:23:27 »
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.


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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #70 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:23:27 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #71 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:25:41 »
Quote
We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!
1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #71 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:25:41 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #72 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:35:21 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #72 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:35:21 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #73 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:41:18 »
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #73 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:41:18 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #74 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:44:48 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #74 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:44:48 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #75 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:49:59 »
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Either Jesus lives in you or He does not

Either you are a temple of the Holy Spirit or you are not

Either you are led by the Holy Spirit or you are not

So I would re-direct the question back to you....

Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Is Jesus within you but no longer speaking, having nothing to say, living within you silently?

Is the Holy Spirit no longer speaking, silently living with you?

And

If you believe you are led by the Holy Spirit, how does He lead you?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #75 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:49:59 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #76 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:54:43 »
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.



Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Mt 11:29 " Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

 Coming to Christ includes taking His yoke and learning of Him then they shall find rest unto their souls.

THose who take His yoke upon themselves do so by learning of Him.  One can learn the things Christ has said.

THose who do as Christ has said, that is, those who believe, repent, confess and are baptized, Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,6, Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16;16 are taking His yoke upon them.  THis text does not negate Heb 5:9.

Mt 7:21 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.


Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #77 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:55:21 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  



Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #78 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:59:29 »
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.


Exactly

Those are the people He never knew, the ones that only know Him as black words on white pages and worse yet, carved words on stone  

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Through Jesus by His Holy Spirit, in the New Covenant God has kept His promise

« Last Edit: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 13:19:30 by gospel »

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #78 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:59:29 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #79 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 13:18:42 »
Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.
I completely agree on the obedience part but you are missing my point. I am not sure at this point how to communicate it to you so you will get it.

I guess I will try this. There are 3 options IMO.

1 Disobey
2 Obey without relating (rote, mindless, following the rules)
3 Obey with relating.

To my understanding the last option (#3) is the ONLY acceptable one and you are arguing between 1 and 2.

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #80 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 14:37:01 »
Gods' word does come with conditions to follow to live a happy life. Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 (please read these two chapters) teach us about blessings and cursing as God will always give us choices to make. We have to live by faith and trust in the Lord so we will remain in his will and receive the greater blessings of God. The book of James is a wonderful book that teaches us how to keep the blessings flowing in our lives when we live by faith that produces much in us. Faith obeys Gods word and removes discrimination. Faith proves itself by works and helps us control our tongue. Faith produces wisdom, humility and dependence on God. Faith prays for the afflicted and confronts the erring brother. From moving mountains to receiving Gods' blessings it is all up to us on how we receive from God.

The only condition we need is to be willing to let God change anything in our own lives that needs changing by surrendering our will to his will by applying his word to our lives and only God can make those changes in us if we surrender all of ourselves to him and be obedient to his calling. We come to Jesus as we are in all our sin as we are drawn by his Spirit to answer his call to salvation. When we say Jesus enters our heart we are saying Jesus is filling us with his love as his greatest commandment so we can love others through the love of Christ in us. You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation, but for me it is a personal relationship with Christ where he meets me where I am and I allow him to mold me and make me what he wants me to be. I will always be a work in progress until the day of the Lords return for his Bride. It is my hearts (spirit) condition to know I needed Christ in my life to be Lord and Savior to save me from my sinful flesh as I die to this flesh everyday to live by Gods Holy Spirit guiding me and teaching me how to know and have the mind of Christ as I live by his grace and mercy.

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #81 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:27:53 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:34:53 by Sinead »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #82 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:35:49 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #83 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:37:55 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galations 5:1

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #84 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:42:31 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

Manna!

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #85 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 16:14:36 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #86 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 16:54:36 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #87 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:07:46 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #88 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:26:46 »
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.

If you mean other than the scriptural support I've already cited...WRONG,
again sir.

But because I do not understand why you would want to exclude YOURSELF from the promises of a personal relationship with Our Lord....

For your sake I'll share more scripture not to force you to accept The Lord's personal appeal mind you but just so you'll realize He has made a personal appeal to you, me and everyone



Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Galatians 4:6


Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.

"Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


Luke 12:32
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.



He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Ephesians 1:5

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28


John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

Offline Insight

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #89 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:34:33 »
I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This is an oxymoron from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull" is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms:

Understand AND Trinity  ::shrug::

Sinead best you leave those two words as far apart as possible going forward.

Insight

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #90 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 19:13:29 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?


Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #91 on: Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 22:13:04 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19






Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #92 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 02:15:01 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19


Do you seriously believe that means The Lord Jesus, God the Son is in heaven as flesh and bones?

Offline Sinead

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #93 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 03:43:48 »
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19


Do you seriously believe that means The Lord Jesus, God the Son is in heaven as flesh and bones?

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
 ::eatingpopcorn:
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 04:15:56 by Sinead »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #94 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 05:47:32 »
Quote
believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Actually it goes back to gnosticism of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.  Heresy.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #95 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 06:56:48 »
Sinead said:

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
===========================================================

1st Corinthians 15:34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not:  for some have not the knowledge of God:  I speak this to your shame.  35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  and with what body do they come?  36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:  37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest; not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:  38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.  39) All flesh is not the same flesh:  but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.  40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:  but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars:  for one star differeth from another star in glory.  42) So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  44) It is sown a natural body; is is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  47) The first man is of the earth, earthy:  the second man is the Lord from heaven.  48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  50)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53) For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
===============================================================================

Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that hade the power of death, that is, the devil; 15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation of the sins of the people.  18) For in the he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
===============================================================================

God the Son, took on the form of man (flesh and blood) when He came to earth to fulfill the Law, and to serve as the Perfect Lamb which would pay the price for the sins of mankind, and establish God the Father's salvation plan.  So, yes, it is true that when He was here on earth, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, was flesh and blood.  His body was corruptable, weak, subject to illness, injury, afflictions, hunger, cold, temptations.  However, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, with His victory over death and the grave, when He again ascended to the Throne of God, was no longer a "corruptable body," but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are One.  The Holy Trinity; three persons in one, in perfect harmony.
===============================================================================

I notice that you did not speak of which church group/denomination/organization you belong to/fellowship with, and I have to wonder why?  Surely you are not ashamed of your membership/affiliation are you?  You should not be.......no one should.



p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #96 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 07:01:38 »
Sinead said:

Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
===========================================================

I will defer to your knowledge of what Jehova's Witnesses teach, you may be far more experienced in their teachings than I.  However, this statement does reveal your lack of knowledge of what other Churches teach, as well as what the Word of God teaches.  And I too will wait for your declaration as to what church group/organization/denomination you belong to, and/or are affiliated with.

Me?  Shoot, is there anyone here who does not yet know that my Church is the Church of God Reformation Movement, Anderson, Indiana?  I would think by now that most everyone here would be aware of that, as I am one of the few here who openly declares with whom I fellowship and why.  I've written about it many times on both this forum and on the Protestant forum.

And you?


p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #97 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 07:39:43 »
from the Complete Jewish Bible:

34 Come to your senses! Live righteously and stop sinning! There are some people who lack knowledge of God - I say this to your shame. 35 But someone will ask, "In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?" 36 Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn't come alive unless it first dies. 37 Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else; 38 but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish. 40 Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else. 41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is "sown," it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay. 43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong. 44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit. 45 In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being;o but the last "Adam" has become a life-giving Spirit. 46 Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 People born of dust are like the man of dust, and people born from heaven are like the man from heaven; 49 and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so also we will bear the image of the man from heaven. 50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay. 51 Look, I will tell you a secret - not all of us will die! But we will all be changed! 52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed. 53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality. 54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory
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Offline ChristNU

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #98 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 08:57:03 »

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.



So, you have examined yourself and have not found Christ to live in you, that is a sad state of affairs for you. But do not presume that because that is true for yourself, that it is also true for everyone else. I have the Spirit of Christ, I belong to Him. Christ lives in me. I passed the test and did not fail...failure is not an option for those who truly belong to Christ.

Romans 8:9
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?




p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #99 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 09:29:15 »
Good scriptures as well ChristNU, however, I fear we are wasting our time here, but, I supose there are others who might read this thread and benefit...........so, it may not all be for naught...........

 ::tippinghat::

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #100 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 10:49:24 »
Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.
I completely agree on the obedience part but you are missing my point. I am not sure at this point how to communicate it to you so you will get it.

I guess I will try this. There are 3 options IMO.

1 Disobey
2 Obey without relating (rote, mindless, following the rules)
3 Obey with relating.

To my understanding the last option (#3) is the ONLY acceptable one and you are arguing between 1 and 2.

You'll need to define what you mean by "relating" but 1 and 2 would both be disobeying.  One cannot be mindless or rote in their obeying..."But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.", Heb 11:6; 2 Pet 3:14; 2 Tim 2:15; there must be diligence not mindlessness in obeying.   Obeying is following God's rules/laws/commandments for those that do not follow God's rules do not love God, Jn 14;15.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #101 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:01:01 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #102 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:04:24 »
Gods' word does come with conditions to follow to live a happy life. Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 (please read these two chapters) teach us about blessings and cursing as God will always give us choices to make. We have to live by faith and trust in the Lord so we will remain in his will and receive the greater blessings of God. The book of James is a wonderful book that teaches us how to keep the blessings flowing in our lives when we live by faith that produces much in us. Faith obeys Gods word and removes discrimination. Faith proves itself by works and helps us control our tongue. Faith produces wisdom, humility and dependence on God. Faith prays for the afflicted and confronts the erring brother. From moving mountains to receiving Gods' blessings it is all up to us on how we receive from God.

So having faith is a condition that must be met to receive God's grace.


Quote from: Debbie_55
The only condition we need is to be willing to let God change anything in our own lives that needs changing by surrendering our will to his will by applying his word to our lives and only God can make those changes in us if we surrender all of ourselves to him and be obedient to his calling. We come to Jesus as we are in all our sin as we are drawn by his Spirit to answer his call to salvation. When we say Jesus enters our heart we are saying Jesus is filling us with his love as his greatest commandment so we can love others through the love of Christ in us. You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation, but for me it is a personal relationship with Christ where he meets me where I am and I allow him to mold me and make me what he wants me to be. I will always be a work in progress until the day of the Lords return for his Bride. It is my hearts (spirit) condition to know I needed Christ in my life to be Lord and Savior to save me from my sinful flesh as I die to this flesh everyday to live by Gods Holy Spirit guiding me and teaching me how to know and have the mind of Christ as I live by his grace and mercy.

What if I do not surrender my will to God's will, can I still receive grace by not meeting this condition of surrendering?

You say "You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation..."

I call them conditions for that is exactly what they are because receiving God's grace is conditional.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #103 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:09:10 »
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

No one receives God's saving grace while they are in disobedience to God.  One first has to obey.  2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."   Saving grace is 'in Christ Jesus' and it takes obedience on man's part in believing and submitting to baptism to be in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:27.  Doing nothing or disobedience never puts one in Christ which is the only place saving grace is found.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #104 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:15:37 »
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.