Author Topic: Law vs. Grace (Read 39177 times)

gospel · « **Reply #75 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:49:59 AM »

Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 11:41:18 AM

Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Either Jesus lives in you or He does not

Either you are a temple of the Holy Spirit or you are not

Either you are led by the Holy Spirit or you are not

So I would re-direct the question back to you....

Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Is Jesus within you but no longer speaking, having nothing to say, living within you silently?

Is the Holy Spirit no longer speaking, silently living with you?

And

If you believe you are led by the Holy Spirit, how does He lead you?

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #75 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:49:59 AM »

Gomer · « **Reply #76 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:54:43 AM »

Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 11:23:27 AM

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:05:03 AM
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us. Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely. He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Mt 11:29 " Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

Coming to Christ includes taking His yoke and learning of Him then they shall find rest unto their souls.

THose who take His yoke upon themselves do so by learning of Him. One can learn the things Christ has said.

THose who do as Christ has said, that is, those who believe, repent, confess and are baptized, Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,6, Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16;16 are taking His yoke upon them. THis text does not negate Heb 5:9.

Mt 7:21 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9. THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #76 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:54:43 AM »

gospel · « **Reply #77 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:44:48 AM

Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all. Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess. The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness. There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion. The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process. That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him? Is that an impersonal process? By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you. You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote

By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #77 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM »

gospel · « **Reply #78 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:59:29 AM »

Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 11:23:27 AM

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:05:03 AM
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us. Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely. He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.

Exactly

Those are the people He never knew, the ones that only know Him as black words on white pages and worse yet, carved words on stone

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Through Jesus by His Holy Spirit, in the New Covenant God has kept His promise

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #78 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:59:29 AM »

DaveW · « **Reply #79 on:** December 12, 2011, 12:18:42 PM »

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:54:43 AM

Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9. THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.

I completely agree on the obedience part but you are missing my point. I am not sure at this point how to communicate it to you so you will get it.

I guess I will try this. There are 3 options IMO.

1 Disobey
2 Obey without relating (rote, mindless, following the rules)
3 Obey with relating.

To my understanding the last option (#3) is the ONLY acceptable one and you are arguing between 1 and 2.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #79 on:** December 12, 2011, 12:18:42 PM »

Debbie_55 · « **Reply #80 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:37:01 PM »

Gods' word does come with conditions to follow to live a happy life. Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 (please read these two chapters) teach us about blessings and cursing as God will always give us choices to make. We have to live by faith and trust in the Lord so we will remain in his will and receive the greater blessings of God. The book of James is a wonderful book that teaches us how to keep the blessings flowing in our lives when we live by faith that produces much in us. Faith obeys Gods word and removes discrimination. Faith proves itself by works and helps us control our tongue. Faith produces wisdom, humility and dependence on God. Faith prays for the afflicted and confronts the erring brother. From moving mountains to receiving Gods' blessings it is all up to us on how we receive from God.

The only condition we need is to be willing to let God change anything in our own lives that needs changing by surrendering our will to his will by applying his word to our lives and only God can make those changes in us if we surrender all of ourselves to him and be obedient to his calling. We come to Jesus as we are in all our sin as we are drawn by his Spirit to answer his call to salvation. When we say Jesus enters our heart we are saying Jesus is filling us with his love as his greatest commandment so we can love others through the love of Christ in us. You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation, but for me it is a personal relationship with Christ where he meets me where I am and I allow him to mold me and make me what he wants me to be. I will always be a work in progress until the day of the Lords return for his Bride. It is my hearts (spirit) condition to know I needed Christ in my life to be Lord and Savior to save me from my sinful flesh as I die to this flesh everyday to live by Gods Holy Spirit guiding me and teaching me how to know and have the mind of Christ as I live by his grace and mercy.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #80 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:37:01 PM »

Sinead · « **Reply #81 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:27:53 PM »

Quote from: p.rehbein on December 12, 2011, 05:56:14 AM

Quote from: Sinead on December 12, 2011, 05:28:25 AM
Quote from: p.rehbein on December 12, 2011, 05:25:38 AM
Quote from: Sinead on December 12, 2011, 05:16:26 AM
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.

just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really? No, seriously, really? uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

Johnb · « **Reply #82 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:35:49 PM »

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:17:22 AM

Quote from: Johnb on December 12, 2011, 11:05:28 AM
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep". The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another. Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands" and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family. What a mess!

The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.

My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another". No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience. It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

Sinead · « **Reply #83 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:37:55 PM »

Quote from: Johnb on December 12, 2011, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:17:22 AM
Quote from: Johnb on December 12, 2011, 11:05:28 AM
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep". The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another. Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands" and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family. What a mess!

The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.

My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another". No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience. It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galations 5:1

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #83 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:37:55 PM »

gospel · « **Reply #84 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:42:31 PM »

Quote from: Johnb on December 12, 2011, 02:35:49 PM

Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 11:17:22 AM
Quote from: Johnb on December 12, 2011, 11:05:28 AM
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep". The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another. Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands" and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family. What a mess!

The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.

My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another". No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience. It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

Manna!

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #84 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:42:31 PM »

Jimmy · « **Reply #85 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:14:36 PM »

Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all. Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess. The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness. There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion. The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process. That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him? Is that an impersonal process? By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you. You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT

Oh, of Course. The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

gospel · « **Reply #86 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:54:36 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 03:14:36 PM

Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all. Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess. The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness. There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion. The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process. That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him? Is that an impersonal process? By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you. You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT

Oh, of Course. The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is

Jimmy · « **Reply #87 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:07:46 PM »

Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 03:54:36 PM

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all. Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess. The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness. There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion. The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process. That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him? Is that an impersonal process? By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you. You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT

Oh, of Course. The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.

gospel · « **Reply #88 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:26:46 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 05:07:46 PM

Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 03:54:36 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: gospel on December 12, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Quote from: DaveW on December 12, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2011, 06:16:37 AM
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all. Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Gomer on December 12, 2011, 10:19:03 AM
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess. The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness. There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion. The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process. That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him? Is that an impersonal process? By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you. You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT

Oh, of Course. The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21.

Geesh

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.

If you mean other than the scriptural support I've already cited...WRONG,
again sir.

But because I do not understand why you would want to exclude YOURSELF from the promises of a personal relationship with Our Lord....

For your sake I'll share more scripture not to force you to accept The Lord's personal appeal mind you but just so you'll realize He has made a personal appeal to you, me and everyone

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Galatians 4:6

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.

"Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, Ephesians 1:5

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

Insight · « **Reply #89 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:34:33 PM »

Quote from: Sinead on December 12, 2011, 02:27:53 PM

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This is an oxymoron from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull" is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms:

Understand AND Trinity

Sinead best you leave those two words as far apart as possible going forward.

Insight

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