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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Debbie_55 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 12:49:38

Title: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 12:49:38
I will not post all 613 Mosaic/Levitical laws as it's to lengthy, but you can look them up online. Point being if you want to live under the law, which by the way was only for the Israelite for their transgressions and not given to the Gentile nation, then you must live by all the law in order to be made righteous and sinless before the Father and remember there is a curse if you break even one. Jesus never came to destroy the law, but came to fulfill all the law through his life, death and resurrection to redeem us from the curse of the law to live under Gods' new covenant that saves or redeems us by his grace that no matter who you are or where you are from Christ is all and in all who answer Gods call of salvation to be Spiritually renewed by his Spirit. You can either live by the law or choose to live by grace as it is a personal choice, but you can not live by both and only choose those laws you want to follow. And by the way, the 10 commandments are part of the 613 laws and not a separate set of laws.

Old Mosaic Covenant                       New Spiritual Covenant 

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14           NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3     Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39        Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6          Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7              Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12      UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13         ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                    PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19          Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                  Uncircumcised... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10                NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3        PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11      MELCHIZEDEK priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5      HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18   POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13              ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13      Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13         Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15         SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7            Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:00:32
Please read Acts 21.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Giver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:18
(Galations 5:13-26)
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:54
Please read Acts 21.


Ok, I read Acts 21, and?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:59:10
Did you catch the part about keeping the Jewish believers to obeying Moses?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: OldDad on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:18:53
One of the best resources I've ever read on this topic is Alva McClain's "Law and Grace"

(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4974/gracebookru9.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Law-Grace-Alva-J-McClain/dp/0884690016/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323461854&sr=8-1)

The best 5 dollars I ever spent.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:32:38

Law vs. Grace


Law and grace are not at odds with each other for grace includes law, they go together like hand-in-glove.  Receiving God's grace is conditional upon keeping God's law/commandments/ordinances.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: OldDad on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:40:21
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:02:30
God extended grace to mankind when He did not have to, so His grace is extended to man unmerited but man has to meet God's conditions to receive this unmerited grace.

I can give someone $1000.00, they did not do anything to merit it I am just giving it to them out of my good grace.  Yet for them to receive the free money they must come to my house to get. Coming to my house is a condition to receive the money that has already been offered to them for free.  Their coming to my house does not earn them the money for it was already offered to them for free.  If they do not meet this condition then they will not receive the money.


If grace was not conditional then there would be no basis God would use to determine who would receive grace and who would not and receiving grace would be totally capricious.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:31:47
God extended grace to mankind when He did not have to, so His grace is extended to man unmerited but man has to meet God's conditions to receive this unmerited grace.

I can give someone $1000.00, they did not do anything to merit it I am just giving it to them out of my good grace.  Yet for them to receive the free money they must come to my house to get. Coming to my house is a condition to receive the money that has already been offered to them for free.  Their coming to my house does not earn them the money for it was already offered to them for free.  If they do not meet this condition then they will not receive the money.


If grace was not conditional then there would be no basis God would use to determine who would receive grace and who would not and receiving grace would be totally capricious.

As I explained to someone else who once tried to use a similar analogy...

What you have done is give us an example in which you have imposed your own predefined conditions...Salvation however is not like coming to your house to get some money.

Therefore

The analogy of coming to your house falls flat because Jesus comes to meet us right where we are in no matter what condition we are in simply because we call on His Name.

Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!

If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it

But I can't think of anything else in life I can have by simply asking for it

That's the fullest extent of Grace

God is Extravagant towards us....extra giving
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:55:16
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:04:05
Quote from: gospel

As I explained to someone else who once tried to use a similar analogy...

What you have done is give us an example in which you have imposed your own predefined conditions...Salvation however is not like coming to your house to get some money.

God has His set of 'predefined conditions' to receive grace.  One has to meet the condition of believing, Jn 8:24; repenting of sins, Lk 13:3,5; confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and being baptized, Mk 16:16.  Again, if there is no condition then receiving God's grace is totally capricious.


Quote from: gospel
Therefore

The analogy of coming to your house falls flat because Jesus comes to meet us right where we are in no matter what condition we are in simply because we call on His Name.

Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!

If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it

But I can't think of anything else in life I can have by simply asking for it

That's the fullest extent of Grace

God is Extravagant towards us....extra giving

Man is to come to Christ:

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Jn 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. "

Jn 7:37 "In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. "

Lk 6:47,48 "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock."

First you said "...Jesus comes to meet us right where we are..."

If Jesus comes to man unconditionally, then is it just randomness as to whom Christ will come to and who He will not come to?

Then you said ".....simply because we call on His Name" and "...Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!"  You then say "If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it.'

Then 'so be it' for calling on Him is a condition and my point still stands.  Calling would be as much a condition that must be met as coming to my house to get the free money is a condition that must be met.



Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jaime on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:40:28
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 17:47:34
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

But ...if an unsaved person is riding a train cross country and while crossing a river on a bridge, the bridge collapses, the train falls into the river and within the remaining minutes before it sinks and everyone drowns, the unsaved person calls on the name of Jesus, repents for having rejected Him all his life....

That person will be saved!

So if calling on Jesus can be described as a condition so be it but I can't think of anything in this life or anything in this world a person can get just by calling on a name

Much less something as precious as the Salvation of ones very soul  ::shrug::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: candy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:01:15
All power and glory to our great Savior Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:07:20
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

Ok then having to ask for something is a condition as well?

So if you're making the distinction that a guy sitting on a park bench, eating peanuts, feeding pigeons, not thinking about Jesus or God cannot be Saved unless they accept it ...who could argue that!

Of course that's true, no one especially me is trying to say everyone on planet earth is Saved whether they want to be or not, without first expressing a desire to be so. That would be like saying everyone can go swimming in the ocean but the condition of going swimming is going to the ocean

However if someone doesn't want to go swimming in the ocean they won't even consider going there.

People who want to be Saved only have to ask Jesus into their heart...

But they will only ask because they desire to

Therefore the only true condition is their desire, not receiving....asking

For everyone who asks will..... receive

Sorry....but no matter how you slice or dice it, none of us met any conditions to be Saved

We desired it, so we asked Jesus into our hearts, He came

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Talking Donkey on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:09:59
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:10:58
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

 ::amen!::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:22:52
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

But ...if an unsaved person is riding a train cross country and while crossing a river on a bridge, the bridge collapses, the train falls into the river and within the remaining minutes before it sinks and everyone drowns, the unsaved person calls on the name of Jesus, repents for having rejected Him all his life....

That person will be saved!

So if calling on Jesus can be described as a condition so be it but I can't think of anything in this life or anything in this world a person can get just by calling on a name

Much less something as precious as the Salvation of ones very soul  ::shrug::

So calling on Jesus is all the same as believing and is all that is needed?  Interesting.  I wonder why Paul didn't describe his own conversion that way (Acts 22:16).  I guess he was mistaken.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:25:36
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

How does one go about accepting that free gift? Perhaps just a " Thank you, Jesus"?  Or is there more to it?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:40:31
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Amo on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 19:13:16
Quote
Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

The two are not add odds, unless one thinks it is the keeping of the law that saves them, rather than keeping it because they are saved, out of love.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deut 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God,to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.






Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 19:15:39
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 20:22:08
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 05:57:43
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.


If that was an attempt to answer my question concerning the passage that speaks about "asking Jesus to come into our hearts," I think you missed it. None of those say any such thing.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 06:23:27
Romans 14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.  2) For one believeth that he may eat all things:  another, who is weak, eateth herbs.  3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:  for God hath received him  4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?  to his own master he standeth or falleth.  Yea, he shall be holden up:  for God is able to make him stand.  5) One man esteemeth one day above another:  another esteemeth every day alike.  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.  He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.  8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:  whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.  9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  10) But why dost thou judge thy brother?  or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?  for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.  11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more:  but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 07:17:48
Galatians 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ....... 5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  …… 7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham ………….. 9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.  10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:  for it is written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  11) But that no man is justified by the law, in the sight of God, it is evident:  for:  The just shall live by faith.  12) And the law is not of faith:  but The man that doeth them shall live in them …………….. 14) That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:  that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith …………….. 18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:  but God gave it to Abraham by promise.  19) Wherefore then serveth the law?  It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator …………..  21) Is the law then against the promises of God?  God forbid:  for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,  that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  …………  24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 4:4) But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.  5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.  7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 07:55:37
Galatians 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  ……….. 4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  …………… 14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …………… 18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved: ) …………..8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:  it is a gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. ……. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; …………. 18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ………….  

Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism.  6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. …………. 13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: geronimo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:31:55
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Revelation 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:43:11
1st Thessalonians 5:15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  16) Rejoice evermore.  17) Pray without ceasing.  18) In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  19) Quench not the Spirit.  20) Despise not prophesying.  21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.  23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1st Timothy 1:8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.

1st Timothy 6:11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.  12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2nd Timothy 2:11) It is a faithful saying:  For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:  12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:  if we deny him, he also will deny us.  13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful:  he cannot deny himself. ………… 15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  16) But shun profane and vain babblings:  for they will increase unto more ungodliness…………. 22) Flee also youthful lusts; but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
 
Titus 3:4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.  5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:45:54
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Revelation 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Those are two different doors.  In the case of the Gospel of John, Jesus figuratively speaks of Himself as the door to the kingdom; the door through which we must go ot enter the kingdom.  In Revelation He is obviously not speaking of Himself as the door.  He doesn't enter "through Himself".
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 10:48:06
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 11:52:14
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.


Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 12:00:50
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:42:19
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:49:03
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

No, it's not a condition, it's an action as confessing is an action of the mouth speaking from the condition of your heart.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:56:46
Scripture speaks for itself

Yes it does and it seldom says anything close to what you say.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:58:14
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

No, it's not a condition, it's an action as confessing is an action of the mouth speaking from the condition of your heart.

So the "if - then" statement is not a conditional.  So much for rational discourse.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 15:13:43
"if" you perform this action of confessing then the condition of the action becomes prevalent in your own life that your sins will be forgiven. One is emotionalism and the other an action you take upon the emotionalism as if it is truly from your heart or just that as being an emotion in the moment. There were no conditions in the law, but only that of acting and applying on the law to be made sinless before the Father. Same today as it was in the time of the law given to Moses as all summed up in the greatest commandment of love which is not a condition, but an application.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 16:33:01
What a pile of babble.  I never ceased to be amazed at the linguistic gynmastics to which some folks will go to avoid the obvious.  As I said, so much for rational discussion.

And of course there were conditions in the Law--all sorts of conditions.  The Law was composed of a whole bunch of conditions. There were a whole range of punishments depending upon the trespass committed.  If you committed some sins you would be put to death.  I would call that a condition.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 23:40:31
Scripture speaks for itself

Yes it does and it seldom says anything close to what you say.

Please try to understand I can't take a response of this type seriously because

I'm looking forward to you extending the courtesy of responding to the scriptures in my posts, point by point, respectfully in the same manner I answered you, using scriptures....answering you, point by point.

You can ignore me but
At least address the scriptures..eh? ::shrug::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 23:53:29
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 00:13:36
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:31:30
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!

If it comforts a person to believe there is a formula, or some type of cookie cutter, one size fits all, step by step method or procedure for being Saved than so be it...
However what scripture clearly shows is that people came to Jesus in as many different ways as there were people who came to Him.

So the tax collector came differently than the blind man, who came differently than the leper, who came differently than the woman with the issue of blood, who came differently than the Samaritan woman at the well, as the thief on the cross and so forth and so on....
....And as it was then, so it is now, each of us comes to Jesus according to how we need Him, where we are in our own lives, in our own way and He meets us there

...some come from a jail cell, some come from a sick bed, some come as financial tragedy strikes, some come as a family emergency looms, some come as a doctor pronounces dire prognosis, some come from a fox hole, some come while a plane is crash diving or while a ship is sinking, whatever the case may be, whatever situation in which we find ourselves in our own individual lives

Each with our own sin, in our own way calling out His Name!

Furthermore
Saying we do not ask Jesus into our hearts is quite presumptuous because when we call Jesus, that is indeed where He comes, by His Holy Spirit to take up residence.

So whether we say Jesus I need you, thank you for forgiving me,  I give my life to you or we say Jesus come into my heart....

...in either case, the end result is

 He takes up residence,

In Our Hearts, Where we believe, knowing that He, having heard us, has answered, and is there, in our hearts...and believing that results in Righteousness



Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:57:14
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

I know this question isn't directed at me but Yes Romans 10:9 is definiately a condition!

If it comforts a person to believe there is a formula, or some type of cookie cutter, one size fits all, step by step method or procedure for be Saved than so be it...





Nope. There is only one way to be saved and christians shouldn't be confusing or lying to the unsaved regardless of whether it 'comforts' them or not - and why it would comfort them I have no idea.
Unsaved people need to know that they are going to hell without Christ. They need to know the truth and they need to know that they need to accept Christ's sacrifice and the fact that He died and paid for their sins instead of them.
They need to believe and accept Him as their saviour.
They don't need to be told that all they need to do is 'ask Jesus into their hearts' which is totally unbiblical.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Loner on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 03:18:08
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself

Gospel..the verse you quoted about The Lord knocking at our hearts door has nothing to do with unsaved people..He is addressing the lukewarm church.(Rev 3)

It is important that the unsaved (or lost)  acknowledge that they are a sinner..that their sin separates them from the Father and therefore stand in need of redemption.. without it they will spend eternity in hell..They need to turn away from the sin that they loved and detest (hate) that sin...having done that they then accept the "life" that the Lord Jesus offers. It is not scriptural to say that they should "ask the Lord into their heart"
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:07:26
who said this?

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.
============================================

 rofl

============================================

........and when we realize our need for Jesus, and repent of our sins, do we "accept Him as our Saviour?"  Or, do we "ask Him to come into our lives and be our Saviour and Lord?

============================================

Throughout this entire process, are we not "asking" Jesus to forgive our sins, "asking" Jesus to make us whole, "asking" Jesus to cleanse our hearts, "asking" Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord?  The blood of Jesus Christ;  does it cleanse our hearts of sin?  The Holy Ghost; does He reside in our hearts?  

============================================

Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth……………………..9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved……………..13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

============================================

So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


How exactly is "asking Jesus to come into our hearts" a word game coined by Christians over the years, and "accepting" Him as our Lord and Saviour not a word game coined by Christians over the years?

============================================

 rofl (ya just gotta love it, ya really do.............sigh.............)







Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:08:39
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.

The phrase "accepting Him [Jesus] as our savior" is in fact another of those "terms" that Christians have coined throughout the years.  There really is no command that we must "accept Him as our savior".  I don't not think there is even a statement that Christians have "accepted Him as our savior".  Interestingly, there is the statement by Paul that Jeus has accepted us and we should accept others, i.e., other Christians, as He accepted us.

Both of these terms or phrases are a distortion of what the Bible actually says about what one must do to be saved.  I think that both are vain attempts to make the Bible line up with some prevailing and erroneous theology concerning salvation.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:13:22
OY!!! why is every one SOOOO intent on making this issue MECHANISTIC??  

We are saved by RELATIONSHIP, not arguing over whether this or that action is or is not a "work" or a "condition." It is focusing on the WRONG THING.

Yes we need to be convicted of sin.
Yes we need to repent.
Yes we need to accept God as our Lord.
Yes we need to obey Him.

But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:14:21
The phrase "accepting Him [Jesus] as our savior" is in fact another of those "terms" that Christians have coined throughout the years.  There really is no command that we must "accept Him as our savior".  I don't not think there is even a statement that Christians have "accepted Him as our savior".  Interestingly, there is the statement by Paul that Jeus has accepted us and we should accept others, i.e., other Christians, as He accepted us.

Both of these terms or phrases are a distortion of what the Bible actually says about what one must do to be saved.  I think that both are vain attempts to make the Bible line up with some prevailing and erroneous theology concerning salvation.
===========================================

 rofl ::noworries::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:16:26
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:25:38
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:28:25
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:42:59


So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


We are not asking Him to "come into" anything or anywhere. To "call upon the name of the Lord" is to appeal to His power and authority.

In a similer manner, the phrase, not so much used anymore, "Stop in the name of the law", was the policeman's ordering the person to stop and desist with the command being backed the power and authority of the law of the land.

Thus when we "call upon the name of the Lord"  or do or say something "in the name of the Lord", we are appealling to the Lord; we are petitioning the Lord.  When we baptize another "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" we are calling upon the authority and the power of Jesus to accomplish what has been promised.

Jesus, in speaking to His disciples in John 14 said, "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:48:10
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.

No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:53:07
Matthew 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:  and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, even unto the end of the world.
===========================================

Did Jesus lie to us?  Or, is He WITH US ALWAY, even unto the end of the world?

===========================================

1st Corinthians 3:16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in  you?  

===========================================

So, I'm guessing some here believe that the Spirit of God that dwells within us, dwells in some place other than our hearts?  Is that about right?

===========================================

Matthew 9:3)  And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.  4)  And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?  5)  For whether is easier, to say Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

===========================================

So, I'm just guessing here, but there are some here who believe that our sins do not come from/reside in our hearts?  These sins that Jesus forgives us of/cleanses us of have nothing to do with our hearts?  Is that about right?

===========================================

Psalm 51:6) Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:  and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.  7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:  wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.  8) Make my to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.  9) Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.  10) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit with in me.

============================================

So, again, I'm just guessing here, but, there are some here who do not believe that it is our hearts that God is interested in cleansing, and it's our hearts where all sin resides, and it's our hearts that the precious blood of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, that was shed on Calvary's cross that cleanses our hearts?  Is that about right?

============================================
 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::pondering::

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 06:56:14
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 07:07:49
Quote
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.
No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....
It is not that I disagree with this point. I DO agree with it.

What I take issue with is the tendancy to get caught up in how you intrepret this or that and NOT looking at HIM who is the Author and Perfector of faith. He has told us what to do, but to do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM is pretty worthless.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 07:16:37
Quote
But can WE decide if we do step a or a and b we are saved or if we skip step c we are NOT SAVED?  That is NOT OUR CALL one way or the other. We are not God.
No we are not God.  It is His call.  I would be best to pay attention to what He says.  It is not for us to say who God saves or why.  But He has given us His word concerning who He will save.  If you wish to ignore that do so at your own peril. If you ignore what He says, He might save you anyway, then again.....
It is not that I disagree with this point. I DO agree with it.

What I take issue with is the tendancy to get caught up in how you intrepret this or that and NOT looking at HIM who is the Author and Perfector of faith. He has told us what to do, but to do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM is pretty worthless.

I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:19:03
Quote from: Debbie_55


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

So one can be saved even if he does not believe with the heart and confess with the mouth?


Quote from: Debbie_55
Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

God's grace has appeared to all men yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condtions GOd has made necessary to receive His grace.

You say "All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us.... "

So is believing and confessing  conditions that must be met to receive grace or can one receive grace as an unbeliever?


Quote from: Debbie_55
John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So one does not have to enter the door, not believe and not confess yet still receive God's grace?  Not possible at all.

Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.



[
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:41:47
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:41:55
Quote from: gospel
Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

One has to first meet the conditions of coming to Christ for one has to first  "love me, he will keep my words".  When man first meets this condtion then They will come to man with forgiveness of sins with an abiding indwelling of the Holy Ghost through the word..


Quote from: gospel
Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

THe context here is that the church of the Laodiceans had become lukewarm and had put Christ out of His own church.  In one of the saddest pictures in all the bible Christ is standing pleading to be let back in.  " If any man hear my voice and open the door". Before Christ would come to them with pardon, they would have to first come to Him by hearing His voice and open the door.

Christ does not come to people unconditionally, people have to first meet the condition of coming to Christ by loving Him (Jn 14:15), keeping His word, hearing His voice, opening the door for Him.


Quote from: gospel
There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

One has to first come to Christ by believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth, then Christ will come with forgiveness of sins/salvation.


Quote from: gospel
Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

Faith is a condtion one first has to meet before Christ may dwell in the heart.

Quote from: gospel

And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37

Belief was a condition that has to be met before one could be water baptized and receive forgiveness of sins.



Quote from: gospel
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Scripture speaks for itself

Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said.

Acts 2:21--------------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38--------------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins.


Rom 10:13----------call upon the name of the LOrd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Rom 10:9,10-------believe and confess with the mouth>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/reckoned righteous

So one has to first met the condtion of calling upon the Lord by believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized then Christ will come to him with pardon of sins/salvation.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:47:32
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.  Not doing as Christ has said is ignoring Christ.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

One cannot have a 'personal relationship' with Christ where they can call Christ their "Lord" if they do not the things which Christ says.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 11:53:41
Quote
When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.
Not necessarily.  One can go thru all the actions of obedience and have full mental agreement with the claims of the gospel but never really personally encounter the ONE who calls us to HIMSELF.

That results in nothing. No change. No salvation. He is merely obeying written words on a page.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:05:03
Quote
When one obeys Christ he is 'relating' to Jesus and fixing his eyes upon Christ.
Not necessarily.  One can go thru all the actions of obedience and have full mental agreement with the claims of the gospel but never really personally encounter the ONE who calls us to HIMSELF.

That results in nothing. No change. No salvation. He is merely obeying written words on a page.


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Johnb on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:05:28
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:17:22
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:19:05
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:19:55
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself

Gospel..the verse you quoted about The Lord knocking at our hearts door has nothing to do with unsaved people..He is addressing the lukewarm church.(Rev 3)

Yeah and so what's the point?

Are you trying to insinuate that Jesus is not looking for His sheep and waiting for His sheep to turn and come to Him?

Are you trying to infer that the Holy Spirit is not working on the heart of the unbeliever?

Are you trying to tell us that The Holy Spirit does not convict those who do not believe in Jesus?

The fact of the matter no matter how you slice or dice it is Jesus comes into the heart of the unbeliever at the point of belief and faith in Him


It's a heartfelt experience whereby one opens their heart to Jesus and allows Him to come in and make His abode

Quote
It is important that the unsaved (or lost)  acknowledge that they are a sinner..that their sin separates them from the Father and therefore stand in need of redemption.. without it they will spend eternity in hell..They need to turn away from the sin that they loved and detest (hate) that sin...having done that they then accept the "life" that the Lord Jesus offers. It is not scriptural to say that they should "ask the Lord into their heart"

You're right we do have to acknowledge our sin, but aside from that there is no cookie cutter but I will say the same thing to you as I stated to Sinead...


First of all turning to Jesus is in fact repenting, turning from and acknowledging your need for a Savior, for Salvation is in fact acknowledging your sin because that is in fact what you need Salvation from, "the wrath of God, against sin"

Acknowledging sin is in fact the difference between the rich young ruler in Luke 18 and the rich tax collector Zacchaeus in Luke 19

The rich man in Luke 18 said he was blameless in regards to the Law
The rich man in Luke 19 accused by religious people of being unworthy of Jesus presence in his house, was repentant and acknowledged his need for forgiveness

The woman caught in adultery was guilty, caught in the act, where in the scripture does she say anything repentant to Jesus?

The woman at the well had been married 5 times and living with a man to who she was not married...where does she say anything repentant to Jesus?

Where does he chide either of them to do so?

Peter repented directly to Jesus, face to face and how did Peter repent?

The fact of the matter is, you know, I know we all know we are sinners, we all know where we fall short, and we know we fall short in some areas we do not quite understand.

More importantly Jesus knows.
In fact Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves,

Just look at Peter!

Jesus knew he would fall short, sin before Peter even knew it. And as we all know Peter sincerely believed he would never deny Jesus.

Jesus already knew he would  

That is because Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves,

and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man. John 2:25

He made us, He knows what is in us, He knows the areas of our strengths and our weaknesses


So ...
Turning to Jesus is acknowledging you are helpless to Save yourself in any way and you need help in every way, even in ways you do not quite understand or are aware of

The end result is that Jesus comes into your heart...Salvation is not a technical procedure, or insert tab a into slot b, step by step instructional video

If a person is contrite, broken down within themselves and asks Jesus to come into their heart...that is all that is required, how that can even be a point of debate is beyond me  ::frown::

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:22:32
who said this?

In order to be saved we don't ask Jesus into our hearts, there isn't any scriptual evidence for this, it's a term that christians have coined throughout the years.
In order to be saved we first have to realize that we are sinners and lost without God, on our way to hell. Then we recognize and believe that Jesus paid for our sins and we repent of those sins and by accepting Him as our saviour we are then born again.
============================================

 rofl

============================================

........and when we realize our need for Jesus, and repent of our sins, do we "accept Him as our Saviour?"  Or, do we "ask Him to come into our lives and be our Saviour and Lord?

============================================

Throughout this entire process, are we not "asking" Jesus to forgive our sins, "asking" Jesus to make us whole, "asking" Jesus to cleanse our hearts, "asking" Jesus to be our Saviour and Lord?  The blood of Jesus Christ;  does it cleanse our hearts of sin?  The Holy Ghost; does He reside in our hearts?  

============================================

Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth……………………..9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved……………..13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

============================================

So, if these scriptures are true; do we "demand" that the Lord give us salvaiton?  Or, do we "ask" the Lord to give us salvaiton?  When we "call upon the name of the Lord, are we not "asking" Him to come into our hearts?  No?  Well, exactly where are we asking Him to "come into?"

============================================


How exactly is "asking Jesus to come into our hearts" a word game coined by Christians over the years, and "accepting" Him as our Lord and Saviour not a word game coined by Christians over the years?

============================================

 rofl (ya just gotta love it, ya really do.............sigh.............)



Don't ya

 ::nodding::

Manna to you
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:23:27
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:25:41
Quote
We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!
1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:35:21
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "? 
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:41:18
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:44:48
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:49:59
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Either Jesus lives in you or He does not

Either you are a temple of the Holy Spirit or you are not

Either you are led by the Holy Spirit or you are not

So I would re-direct the question back to you....

Have you ever had a one on one conversation with HIM?

Is Jesus within you but no longer speaking, having nothing to say, living within you silently?

Is the Holy Spirit no longer speaking, silently living with you?

And

If you believe you are led by the Holy Spirit, how does He lead you?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:54:43
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.



Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Mt 11:29 " Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

 Coming to Christ includes taking His yoke and learning of Him then they shall find rest unto their souls.

THose who take His yoke upon themselves do so by learning of Him.  One can learn the things Christ has said.

THose who do as Christ has said, that is, those who believe, repent, confess and are baptized, Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,6, Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16;16 are taking His yoke upon them.  THis text does not negate Heb 5:9.

Mt 7:21 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:55:21
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  


Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 12:59:29
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ will save those that obey His words else the bible is lying to us.   Doing nothing, that is, not obeying Christ will never gain one a saving realtionship with Christ where  they can call Him their Lord.
Absolutely.  He also said this:

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Not come to words on a page or a doctrine or anything OTHER than Himself.

And that fits perfectly with what he said here:

Matt 7.21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ "

They believed and even claimed miracles in HIS name (and he is NOT denying that statement) but His beef is they "never knew" him. They clearly knew ABOUT him. But did not know HIM PERSONALLY.


Exactly

Those are the people He never knew, the ones that only know Him as black words on white pages and worse yet, carved words on stone  

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Through Jesus by His Holy Spirit, in the New Covenant God has kept His promise

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 13:18:42
Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.
I completely agree on the obedience part but you are missing my point. I am not sure at this point how to communicate it to you so you will get it.

I guess I will try this. There are 3 options IMO.

1 Disobey
2 Obey without relating (rote, mindless, following the rules)
3 Obey with relating.

To my understanding the last option (#3) is the ONLY acceptable one and you are arguing between 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 14:37:01
Gods' word does come with conditions to follow to live a happy life. Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 (please read these two chapters) teach us about blessings and cursing as God will always give us choices to make. We have to live by faith and trust in the Lord so we will remain in his will and receive the greater blessings of God. The book of James is a wonderful book that teaches us how to keep the blessings flowing in our lives when we live by faith that produces much in us. Faith obeys Gods word and removes discrimination. Faith proves itself by works and helps us control our tongue. Faith produces wisdom, humility and dependence on God. Faith prays for the afflicted and confronts the erring brother. From moving mountains to receiving Gods' blessings it is all up to us on how we receive from God.

The only condition we need is to be willing to let God change anything in our own lives that needs changing by surrendering our will to his will by applying his word to our lives and only God can make those changes in us if we surrender all of ourselves to him and be obedient to his calling. We come to Jesus as we are in all our sin as we are drawn by his Spirit to answer his call to salvation. When we say Jesus enters our heart we are saying Jesus is filling us with his love as his greatest commandment so we can love others through the love of Christ in us. You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation, but for me it is a personal relationship with Christ where he meets me where I am and I allow him to mold me and make me what he wants me to be. I will always be a work in progress until the day of the Lords return for his Bride. It is my hearts (spirit) condition to know I needed Christ in my life to be Lord and Savior to save me from my sinful flesh as I die to this flesh everyday to live by Gods Holy Spirit guiding me and teaching me how to know and have the mind of Christ as I live by his grace and mercy.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:27:53
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Johnb on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:35:49
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:37:55
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galations 5:1
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 15:42:31
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

Manna!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 16:14:36
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 16:54:36
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:07:46
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:26:46
I am not really sure what you are getting at there at all.  Who here has even hinted that we should "do those things without keeping our eyes fixed on HIM "?  
This is what I am talking about:
Quote from: Debbie_55
It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Here you say "It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us..."

Yet further above you said (my emp) " All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us..."

So you understand that there is something man must DO....man has to believe and confess.  The idea of belief and confession being necessary in order to be saved came from God, Rom 10:9,10. So when man  believes and confesses he is doing God's righteoueness and not doing his own righteoueness.  There is a night and day difference between man doing God's righeousness and man doing his own meritorious self righteous works.
I see no mention of relating personally to Jesus or fixing our eyes on him at ALL in this discussion.  The whole thing is reduced to an impersonal process.  That TOTALLY flies in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him.

Does believing in Jesus TOTALLY fly in the face of the idea that we all tout of having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?  Is that an impersonal process?  By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

First of all there is nothing more personal than God coming to dwell among men!

Secondly and most important

THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT REALIZING GOD AS OUR FATHER...WHAT IN THE NAME OF JESUS IS MORE PERSONAL THAN CALLING GOD ABBA!

The entire New Testament
Is about being adopted as children into the household of faith, part of the family of God, becoming heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus, in fact siblings of each other, as brothers and sisters, each having the indwelling of God as Temples of the Holy Spirit, each becoming members of the same body

So ....if none of that is personal to you for God's sake please tell us your idea of personal can possibly be!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!
First of all, I wasn't talking with you.  You didn't even bother to read what I responded to.

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


Just for the sake of clarity...

You did ask this question ...correct?

Quote
By the way where in the NT to you read about having a "Personal Relationship" with Him?

That dear sir is what I was responding to...if you didn't want it addressed you could have asked it in a pm

Since you did not

My response stands....

The New Testament is A PERSONAL COVENANT  

Oh, of Course.  The specific scriptural support for your position is found in Matt 1:1-Rev22:21. 

Geesh ::doh::

It is unbelievable some of the things some of you come up with!


It's perfectly okay, no need to get riled up... we understand if it's not personal for you, then obviously it is not... for you

Far be it for me to tell you it is  ::noworries::

For those not up to speed, that is gospel speak for there really not being any scriptural support for his position.

If you mean other than the scriptural support I've already cited...WRONG,
again sir.

But because I do not understand why you would want to exclude YOURSELF from the promises of a personal relationship with Our Lord....

For your sake I'll share more scripture not to force you to accept The Lord's personal appeal mind you but just so you'll realize He has made a personal appeal to you, me and everyone



Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Galatians 4:6


Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father.

"Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


Luke 12:32
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.



He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, Ephesians 1:5

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28


John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Insight on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 18:34:33
I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This is an oxymoron from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull" is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms:

Understand AND Trinity  ::shrug::

Sinead best you leave those two words as far apart as possible going forward.

Insight
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 19:13:29
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 22:13:04
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19





Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 02:15:01
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19


Do you seriously believe that means The Lord Jesus, God the Son is in heaven as flesh and bones?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 03:43:48
We don't ask Him to come into anything. Jesus is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is here.


just a wild guess here, but your still working out that thingy about the Holy Trinity?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

No I understand the trinity pretty well. A lot of people get confused about it however.
When Jesus ascended to heaven He had a flesh and bones body. Before He left His disciples were upset because He was leaving and He told them that He wasn't going to leave them as orphans and that He was sending down the Holy Spirit.
When we become saved the Holy Spirit dwells inside us.
Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
The Holy Spirit however is a spirit and is able to dwell within us.

==========================================

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.
==========================================

Really?  No, seriously, really?  uh, hmmmm, ya might wanna rethink this comment of yours as well............

"No I understand the trinity pretty well."

==========================================

 ::pondering:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::frown::

I don't need to rethink anything.
Perhaps you are having trouble understanding the trinity?

This may well take the prize for the most misguided concept of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour that I have ever read.

Please give me the scriptures that teach us this?

"He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else."

thanks.............oh, as well, could you share what church group/denomination/organization you belong to/attend?



Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke 24:9

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19


Do you seriously believe that means The Lord Jesus, God the Son is in heaven as flesh and bones?

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
 ::eatingpopcorn:
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 05:47:32
Quote
believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Actually it goes back to gnosticism of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.  Heresy.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 06:56:48
Sinead said:

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
===========================================================

1st Corinthians 15:34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not:  for some have not the knowledge of God:  I speak this to your shame.  35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  and with what body do they come?  36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:  37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest; not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:  38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.  39) All flesh is not the same flesh:  but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.  40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:  but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars:  for one star differeth from another star in glory.  42) So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  44) It is sown a natural body; is is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  47) The first man is of the earth, earthy:  the second man is the Lord from heaven.  48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  50)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53) For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
===============================================================================

Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that hade the power of death, that is, the devil; 15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation of the sins of the people.  18) For in the he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
===============================================================================

God the Son, took on the form of man (flesh and blood) when He came to earth to fulfill the Law, and to serve as the Perfect Lamb which would pay the price for the sins of mankind, and establish God the Father's salvation plan.  So, yes, it is true that when He was here on earth, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, was flesh and blood.  His body was corruptable, weak, subject to illness, injury, afflictions, hunger, cold, temptations.  However, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, with His victory over death and the grave, when He again ascended to the Throne of God, was no longer a "corruptable body," but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are One.  The Holy Trinity; three persons in one, in perfect harmony.
===============================================================================

I notice that you did not speak of which church group/denomination/organization you belong to/fellowship with, and I have to wonder why?  Surely you are not ashamed of your membership/affiliation are you?  You should not be.......no one should.


Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 07:01:38
Sinead said:

Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
===========================================================

I will defer to your knowledge of what Jehova's Witnesses teach, you may be far more experienced in their teachings than I.  However, this statement does reveal your lack of knowledge of what other Churches teach, as well as what the Word of God teaches.  And I too will wait for your declaration as to what church group/organization/denomination you belong to, and/or are affiliated with.

Me?  Shoot, is there anyone here who does not yet know that my Church is the Church of God Reformation Movement, Anderson, Indiana?  I would think by now that most everyone here would be aware of that, as I am one of the few here who openly declares with whom I fellowship and why.  I've written about it many times on both this forum and on the Protestant forum.

And you?

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 07:39:43
from the Complete Jewish Bible:

34 Come to your senses! Live righteously and stop sinning! There are some people who lack knowledge of God - I say this to your shame. 35 But someone will ask, "In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?" 36 Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn't come alive unless it first dies. 37 Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else; 38 but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish. 40 Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else. 41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is "sown," it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay. 43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong. 44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit. 45 In fact, the Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man, became a living human being;o but the last "Adam" has become a life-giving Spirit. 46 Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards. 47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 People born of dust are like the man of dust, and people born from heaven are like the man from heaven; 49 and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so also we will bear the image of the man from heaven. 50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay. 51 Look, I will tell you a secret - not all of us will die! But we will all be changed! 52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed. 53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality. 54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory
===========================================================
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: ChristNU on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 08:57:03

Jesus does not and cannot dwell inside us - He has a solid flesh and bones body. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father and is nowhere else.



So, you have examined yourself and have not found Christ to live in you, that is a sad state of affairs for you. But do not presume that because that is true for yourself, that it is also true for everyone else. I have the Spirit of Christ, I belong to Him. Christ lives in me. I passed the test and did not fail...failure is not an option for those who truly belong to Christ.

Romans 8:9
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?



Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 09:29:15
Good scriptures as well ChristNU, however, I fear we are wasting our time here, but, I supose there are others who might read this thread and benefit...........so, it may not all be for naught...........

 ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 10:49:24
Again, doing God's will is a condition that must be met to enter the kingdom of heaven this fits perfectly with Heb 5:9.  THose in v22 were not doing those things according to the Father's will, without CHrist's authority.
I completely agree on the obedience part but you are missing my point. I am not sure at this point how to communicate it to you so you will get it.

I guess I will try this. There are 3 options IMO.

1 Disobey
2 Obey without relating (rote, mindless, following the rules)
3 Obey with relating.

To my understanding the last option (#3) is the ONLY acceptable one and you are arguing between 1 and 2.

You'll need to define what you mean by "relating" but 1 and 2 would both be disobeying.  One cannot be mindless or rote in their obeying..."But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.", Heb 11:6; 2 Pet 3:14; 2 Tim 2:15; there must be diligence not mindlessness in obeying.   Obeying is following God's rules/laws/commandments for those that do not follow God's rules do not love God, Jn 14;15.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:01:01
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:04:24
Gods' word does come with conditions to follow to live a happy life. Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 (please read these two chapters) teach us about blessings and cursing as God will always give us choices to make. We have to live by faith and trust in the Lord so we will remain in his will and receive the greater blessings of God. The book of James is a wonderful book that teaches us how to keep the blessings flowing in our lives when we live by faith that produces much in us. Faith obeys Gods word and removes discrimination. Faith proves itself by works and helps us control our tongue. Faith produces wisdom, humility and dependence on God. Faith prays for the afflicted and confronts the erring brother. From moving mountains to receiving Gods' blessings it is all up to us on how we receive from God.

So having faith is a condition that must be met to receive God's grace.


Quote from: Debbie_55
The only condition we need is to be willing to let God change anything in our own lives that needs changing by surrendering our will to his will by applying his word to our lives and only God can make those changes in us if we surrender all of ourselves to him and be obedient to his calling. We come to Jesus as we are in all our sin as we are drawn by his Spirit to answer his call to salvation. When we say Jesus enters our heart we are saying Jesus is filling us with his love as his greatest commandment so we can love others through the love of Christ in us. You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation, but for me it is a personal relationship with Christ where he meets me where I am and I allow him to mold me and make me what he wants me to be. I will always be a work in progress until the day of the Lords return for his Bride. It is my hearts (spirit) condition to know I needed Christ in my life to be Lord and Savior to save me from my sinful flesh as I die to this flesh everyday to live by Gods Holy Spirit guiding me and teaching me how to know and have the mind of Christ as I live by his grace and mercy.

What if I do not surrender my will to God's will, can I still receive grace by not meeting this condition of surrendering?

You say "You can call it what you want as what you think the conditions are in order to answer Gods call to Salvation..."

I call them conditions for that is exactly what they are because receiving God's grace is conditional.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:09:10
Jesus made it clear and simple.

John 15
 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We argue over what command we"must keep".  The one that Jesus said was the most important was to love one another.  Yet we want to condemn and finger point over "keeping the commands"  and show little love for our brother and sisters and even deny that they are part of the family.  What a mess!


The issue I am addressing is can one receive saving grace without meeting the condition of keeping the commandments of Christ.


My point is that Jesus told us what it means to keep His commands "Love one another".   No our salvation is not based on keeping commandments but on the grace of God and the by product is obedience.  It is the grace through faith that brings salvation not following a rule book and being a good law keeper.

No one receives God's saving grace while they are in disobedience to God.  One first has to obey.  2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."   Saving grace is 'in Christ Jesus' and it takes obedience on man's part in believing and submitting to baptism to be in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:27.  Doing nothing or disobedience never puts one in Christ which is the only place saving grace is found.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:15:37
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 11:54:13
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:05:42
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:15:58
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.

You should get 10 manna for that excellent response but....I can only give you one for the time being

Great response!

It's amazing how some people adhere to doctrines that are so conspicuously inconsistent and self contradictory

We are called to be Led by the Spirit

But How can one be led by the Spirit if they do not hear or listen

The Power of Faith comes by SPIRITUALLY hearing, what God is saying in His Word

A person who does not hear spiritually, as you correctly stated, is spiritually malnourished   

 
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:17:02
Gomer and Jimmy, unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe, being justified freely, given freely by Jesus, given by the calling of God. Please if there are conditions would you list them for all of us and give scripture that states the word condition. Salvation is a free gift from God as his grace also as Jesus already paid the price so we could be set free to receive freely that gift of grace.


Rom_5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Act_15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act_18:27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Rom_1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom_3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom_5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co_1:4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Gal_1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal_1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Gal_2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph_3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

2Ti_1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit_2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit_3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

1Pe_5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:44:42
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:51:50
Gomer and Jimmy, unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe, being justified freely, given freely by Jesus, given by the calling of God. Please if there are conditions would you list them for all of us and give scripture that states the word condition. Salvation is a free gift from God as his grace also as Jesus already paid the price so we could be set free to receive freely that gift of grace.


Rom_5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Act_15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act_18:27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Rom_1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom_3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom_5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Co_1:4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Gal_1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal_1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Gal_2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph_3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

2Ti_1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit_2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit_3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

1Pe_5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



You do not see faith as being a condition?  One can receive God's grace while faith-less?


You said "....unless I am just not seeing it I see no conditions for salvation or grace, but do see it as being a free gift through obedience through faith as to also only having to believe..."

You said you see no conditions BUT you see grace as a free gift through obedience through faith.  So obedience through faith is a condition that must be met to receive God's grace.  God's grace hath appeared to all men, Tts 2:11, yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condition of having obedience through faith.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:56:20
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:20:34
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:36:42
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:42:32
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.

And well that they did not wait for that direct line.  If they did, they would likely have heard the same cacophony that some here seem to hear.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:20:40
Relating = personal one on one time, 2 way conversation, etc. Just like relating to your spouse or friend or family member.

Jesus does not personally speak to people today apart from His word even though I know some make claims that He speaks to them.  Jesus speaks to us today through His word, Heb 1:1,2.  Man "relates" back to Christ by obeying His word. I do not know how more man can "relate" to Christ than by loving Christ and Christ said 'if ye love Me keep My commandments', Jn 14:15.

When did Jesus stop speaking?
He hasn't, He speaks today through His word.

So how did the Holy Spirit lead you to the church you belong to?

Does the Bible mention your church by name?

The Holy Spirit through His word taught me about Christ's church, when it began, Acts 2, that Christ built it, Mt 16:18, and that Christ is it head, Col 1:18, and Christ purchased His church with His own blood, Acts 20:28.

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They searched God's word, the scriptures,  to see if those things were so. They did not wait for direct communication from God to see if those things were so.

Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
   Romans 8:14


Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 15:39:40
Sinead said:

Yes of course. you obviously are having a hard time believing what the Bible says.
You obviously don't believe He is and I'd like to see you back it up with scripture.
Also - believing that Jesus ascended as a Spirit is a classic Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Don't worry, I'll wait.
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1st Corinthians 15:34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not:  for some have not the knowledge of God:  I speak this to your shame.  35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  and with what body do they come?  36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:  37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest; not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:  38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.  39) All flesh is not the same flesh:  but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.  40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:  but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars:  for one star differeth from another star in glory.  42) So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  44) It is sown a natural body; is is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  47) The first man is of the earth, earthy:  the second man is the Lord from heaven.  48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  50)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53) For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that hade the power of death, that is, the devil; 15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation of the sins of the people.  18) For in the he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
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God the Son, took on the form of man (flesh and blood) when He came to earth to fulfill the Law, and to serve as the Perfect Lamb which would pay the price for the sins of mankind, and establish God the Father's salvation plan.  So, yes, it is true that when He was here on earth, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, was flesh and blood.  His body was corruptable, weak, subject to illness, injury, afflictions, hunger, cold, temptations.  However, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, with His victory over death and the grave, when He again ascended to the Throne of God, was no longer a "corruptable body," but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are One.  The Holy Trinity; three persons in one, in perfect harmony.
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I notice that you did not speak of which church group/denomination/organization you belong to/fellowship with, and I have to wonder why?  Surely you are not ashamed of your membership/affiliation are you?  You should not be.......no one should.




flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom - Jesus said He had flesh and bones not flesh and blood.

I'm still waiting for scripture to prove that Jesus did not ascend in His new body.
Jesus very clearly told his discples - I am not a spirit, handle me and see - I have flesh and bones, a spirit does not.
Jesus even ate with them which proves this. Jesus will carry the nail scars in His hands for all eternity - how could a spirit do this?

Quote
but, rather again took upon Himself the likeness of God the Father.
Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.


Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 15:46:16
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16

 ::applause::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 19:26:47
Quote
When did Jesus stop speaking?
He didn't.  But when the Montanists came to be influential (2nd and 3rd century) the EOC decided that people should NOT be hearing God for themselves. The Montanists abused the gift of prophecy and got into serious error,  so the church fathers decided on no more use of the gifts of the spirit and no one was to listen to God individually.

IOW, then condemned everyone to living without true biblical faith beyond salvation. Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD [rhema = spoken word] of God. So if you do not personally HEAR God speaking to you, you are in a faith-malnourished condition.

Had to circle back and give you some more manna for that response!
 ::amen!::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:15:22
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Sinead on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:18:45
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: p.rehbein on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:29:01
Sinead said:

Please show me the exact verse - I notice you didn't post that.

and by the way I am non-denominational. What does it matter? There are no denominations in heaven.
================================================================

I gave you the Scriptures necessary for understanding.  However, I could add how Jesus said "God is a Spirit, and to worship Him, we must worship Him in Spirit......" and Jesus said "I and My Father are one............."  and, I could explain how we are created in the image of God ---------- and that being our eternal spirits, not our earthy, flesh and bone/blood bodies, but you would probably not be able to understand.  It also appears that you still don't understand that when Jesus came here to earth (even after His assention), He took upon Himself the appearance of man.  As well, you seem to miss the part where when He appeared to the disciples in the room with all the doors locked........................He simply appeard in their midst.................but you would probably not understand why He took on the appearance of man to visit with the disciples....................it appears that you just don't understand the Scriptures I've already given you.

Why does what church you belong to matter?  Because it is of importance that we know who is teaching the things of which you speak.  Simply saying "non-denominational" is a cop-out.  Shoot, the Church of God Anderson, IN is non-denominational.  So, again, that I may understand which church/group/organization is teaching this flesh and bone/blood Jesus; what is the name of the church you belong to/are affiliated with?




You have not given me the scripture for "When Jesus went to heaven He took on God the father's likeness"

Why? Because you made it up  ::smile::

The church I go to doesn't matter, and no it isn't a cop out to say I'm non denominational because that is exactly what it is.
I do not glean my knowlege from what a church teaches me, but from what the Holy Spirit teaches me through reading the Bible. It's all there and the verses are all there. You simply choose not to believe them.

as you are not able to understand the Scriptures I've given you, there is little hope you will see past this misteaching you have been instructed in...................how exactly does one "make up" what Jesus Himself said?  I showed you what Jesus Himself said, and, yet, you cannot see.  Jesus spoke of this as well.................those who refuse to see...........

.............and, yes, it is a cop-out, but if you do not wish to identify your church group/organization, that's fine.  there are many here who will not..............and given the teachings they espouse...............well...............




Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 07:39:14
Does the Bible mention your church by name? Yes actually it really does "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. " Romans 16:16
Yogi Yogi Yogi.

That phrase is not used nor meant to be used as a Proper name.  It is a description - perhaps better translated as the Messianic Assemblies or Synagogues of Messiah.

BTW - when was the last time you planted a wet one on your pastor????
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 08:04:09
Just last Sunday and we went out for lunch afterward.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: pointmade on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 09:33:57
Gomer: "Tts 2:11, yet all men will not receive God's grace for all men will not meet the condition of having obedience through faith."

That is a great verse of seeing grace as conditional as you will find in the written Word.

I never realized until it was pointed out to me what Jesus was referring to in John 3:14-15 in His discourse
with Nicodemus when He said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life"

To understand what the Lord is saying to this "teacher of Israel" one must read and understand Numbers
chapter 21:1-9.

Note that "the people spoke against God and Moses" (read why in v, 5),
We note in verse 6 that this did not set well with the Lord and He "sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people and much of the people died."

In verse 7 the people realized that they have SINNED against God and needed a snake bit antidote.
They asked Moses "to pray to the Lord that God take away the serpents."

Well...Moses prayed and God answered, but God set a CONDITION for their SIN.
In verse 8 we read of the snake bit antidote that God demanded for their sin.

Moses, you "make a fiery serpent." OK Lord, I got ya....now what?
"You set it upon a pole," You gotta be kidding me Lord...then what?

The Lord said, "and it shall come to pass that EVERYONE that is bitten (sin),
when he LOOKS upon it, shall live."

You mean all they have to do is LOOK?
Wouldn't it be easier if the people just stayed in their tents and prayed and then I wouldn't have to
come up with a brass snake to set on a pole? jeez!

So anyway...Moses made a serpent, and set it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent
had bitten any man, when he LOOKED upon the serpent of brass, he LIVED."

Anyone want to tell me that to LOOK was not a condition for "EVERYONE" of the Israelites
in the wilderness FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN?

Was this a WORK to LOOK? or a CONDITION of GRACE set forth by God.
Recall Peter's words at Pentecost when the "devout Jews" realized they had sinned against God
by killing His Son?

What was the snake bite sermon that Peter perscribed?
"Repent and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Look" was conditional to remove sin in the wilderness.
"Repent and be baptized everyone of you" (Acts 2:38) is conditional to remove sin today.
As in the wilderness, praying through is not an antidote for sin.
Asking Jesus into your heart is not the perscribed antidote for snake bite this side of the cross.

"If any man is bitten, when he LOOKs upon the serpent of brass he LIVES."
What did Jesus say in John 3:14-15?
Are His words conditional or not?
Have you been snake bit?

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 10:52:41
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
   Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 11:17:06
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 11:40:07
Quote from: gospel

Okay so the mocking notwithstanding, apparently you folks want to get religious on this topic and talk in high falutin religious terms and that's fine but I was asking a practical question

Let me see if I can rephrase it

The bible tells us, (paraphrasing) those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God ( see Romans 8:14 )

Gomer said God no longer speaks to people, I asked when did God stop speaking, He said God hasn't really stopped He just speaks through His Word.

So first off, Gomer you did not answer the intent of my question and I let you get away with it

So maybe this time with Yogi and Jimmy's help you can answer the intent of my question which is

When did God stop speaking audibly to a person's heart, so that His people can no longer hear Him?

Book, Chapter and Verse please  ::reading::

My follow up question was also not answered according to the intent of my question.

Here it is somewhat reworded...

Hopefully you, and I assume yogi and Jimmy each belong to a fellowship of believers, a congregation or assembly of like minded believers such as yourselves
 
So I'm not asking about The Body of Christ, the spiritual church I'm speaking in  practical terms and the question is ....

Is the fellowship of believers you belong to specifically named and mentioned in the scriptures?

The follow up question then becomes obvious

If it is not mentioned in the scriptures by name... how did God lead you to it?

A similar question would be ....if you are married, is the name of your mate mentioned in the scriptures?

If not how did God lead you to choose your mate?

Or in both cases...the fellowship you belong to and your spouse did you lead yourselves?

I would ask the same question of your choice of profession, the city and the homes you live in...were either of them specifically mentioned or named in the bible?

Did God, in the bible lead you to what profession, what city, what home you should choose?

Or did you lead yourselves in choosing all of them?

The point then becomes obvious

Unless God, in the bible is specifically telling you what decisions to make and how and when to make them

How in God's name can you live a life as a Spirit led believer... if you are making all of the most important choices and decisions in your life on your own?  ???

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
   Romans 8:14




Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"



Does God Speak Directly to Man Today?
By Wayne Jackson

(with my emp)

A friend of mine, who is very religious, is constantly telling me that God speaks to her directly. Anything she wants to do, even things condemned by the Bible, she justifies by saying that she talked with the Lord about the matter, and he told her it was alright. Just how does God speak to people today?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:10:59
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 tells us how God speaks to man today...."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
I agree with that.  I also agree with what he wrote later in that same document:

quoting Ps 95.7:  "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart...."  Heb 3:7, 15; 4:7

Since he writes of God speaking in His Son in the past tense, " Hath in these last days spoken ..." I take it that the "today" he later writes is ongoing;  including the 21st century.

I would submit that the person refered to in your quote is a bad example - like saying no one should drive a car because someone decides to use it to plow into a bunch of pedestrians.   There are tests for determining if what you THINK God is saying is really HIM saying it.  The devil does try to imitate HIS voice.  On top of that list of tests is the one of scripturality.

If it directly violates ANY scripture it is not from God.  (not to say that it may be a true word and violate some of our less than perfect intrepretations)


It appears to me that when you see "hear His voice" or that God in these last day hath "spoken" you take these to only mean God speaking directly.  Abel speaks from his grave, Heb 11:4, but he does not speak directly to us. Christ is said to have preached to the Gentiles, Eph 2:17, even though Christ did not preach directly to the Gentile Ephesians personally but preached to them through Paul.

One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:
 
(1.) in his written word;

(2.) in the preached gospel;

(3.) in our own consciences;

(4.) in the events of his Providence;

(5.) in the admonitions of our relatives and friends.


THere is nothing in the NT that teaches God speaks directly to men today for the NT shows that He does not.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:28:41
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:22:36
Quote from: gospel

Gomer this Wayne Jackson is a saint a believer like you and me so I hope you didn't go through all this trouble citing his writing as biblical authority.


The key to knowing he himself is off the mark and not hearing from God on this matter is the following statement which translated means I don't know when God stopped speaking but eventually He did.

Quote

•Eventually, however, a change in his method of operation occurred; today he speaks exclusively by means of his Son.

The Son is a Person, He is God.... God is a Person not an inanimate object! The Holy Spirit is also a Person. So we're talking about God in 3 Persons and you and your friends are trying to assert they are mute?

We're talking about God who Created the Universe by speaking, who is the same today, yesterday and forever...yet you're asserting He no longer has a voice?

In addition to that
The Word is the Living Word and you are presenting it as a dead, lifeless word with not even the ability of a 5 year old

In addition to that

How did people in China who at one time had no bible, how did they hear from God, to even want to know Him

If God is not speaking, if Jesus is not speaking if the Holy Spirit is not speaking If The Word of God is not speaking ....

It's only because they are not speaking to you either that or you're not listening

So

I'll ask you again,


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

And ...

If you are Believer led by the Spirit of God

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?


These are very easy questions, the 1st one should be a book, chapter and verse in the bible and the 2nd one is about you, your life and your decisions    



(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.


Another point I wanted to bring from the article:

Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.


This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.


The Holy Spirit is the author of the word and if I am led by the word then I am being led by the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:43:00
Thanks Gomer, even though you have not directly answered my 2 very easy questions ...in the multitude of words you have made a couple of points that give me hope and indicate we are finally getting somewhere in this discussion

I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.


Quote from: gospel
You stated
Quote
One can hear the voice of Christ through His word the bible, through the preaching of a gospel minister.

1st Do you hear the voice of Christ ( through His Word ), as you say, when a gospel minister is preaching? Do you actually hear a voice?

I do, if it is divided correctly I hear the Holy Spirit saying, "yes, that's The Truth" or if it is not the Truth I hear the Holy Spirit saying "no that is not The Truth"

The Written Word confirms whether or not what we "hear" is Truth or not Truth. If it cannot be confirmed in the written word, what we hear is definitely not Truth and therefore not God

In either case though....whether we are reading The Word or we are listening to someone else reading or preaching the Word.... we do hear something.
 

Quote
Coffman Commentaries says God speaks through "(1) the voice of God through the holy scriptures as read or preached; (2) the admonitions of faithful loved ones and friends; (3) through conscience which, however depraved, must inevitably retain some vestiges of regard for duty toward God; (4) through the message of God as revealed by consideration of the creation in the light of reason; (5) through God's providential blessings upon every man; and (6) through the spiritual hunger that rises in every heart and which instinctively reaches for a knowledge of God and longs for his approval."

 Albert Barnes says God speaks to us:


Secondly - The phrase God speaks by definition literally means someone has to hear what God says. It literally means God is saying something, so without realizing it you are agreeing with me that God does still speak

The list provided does not change the fact that there is speaking and if there is speaking there is also a listener  

But I would point to item #3 in particular

Quote
in our own consciences;

If this is the case ....you hear something don't you? What you hear, is it a voice and if it is a voice... do you think it is your own voice?

If you do think its your own voice, wouldn't that contradict the point that God is speaking in our consciences

So that would mean God is speaking in your conscience sounding like you to yourself ...correct?

Now back to the easy questions. After this little discussion these questions should be even easier to answer than when I first asked them


1. When did God stop speaking audibly to the heart of His people?

2. How did the Word lead you to make the major decisions you've made in your life such as where you live, your profession, your spouse and the fellowship you attend  if they were not mentioned specifically by name in the Bible?

Because as a Spirit led believer you had to be led by God in major decisions of this caliber. There is no way you could make these decisions without God's leading and guidance ...is there? ::shrug::

Let me point out that your post here to me is completely, totally void of a book, chapter, verse that God speaks directly to anyone today.  It is completely, totally void of any proof, none, zero, zilch, nada, not one bit of evidence provided that God directly speaks to you or anyone else today.  When will you be providing the proof, where is the evidence?


One more time:

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed the way He speaks to man in these lasts days.  Where is your proof, where is your evidence that God speaks to you or anyone else directly?

(2) the word teaches the Christian on how to live a holy life acceptable to God, it gives moral standards to go by as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  I use the bible standards for the choices I make in life.  Where is your proof that God has to speak directly to man as to what profession he is to be in, what person to marry, what friends to have, etc?  

Your argument is dead till you provide the proof.


What if someone came on this forum and said God told them directly that there are no ifs, ands or buts man must be water baptized in order to be saved.  

How are you going to respond to that person?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:48:10
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation. God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:48:39
Quote
I have addressed your two questons.  What has not happened here, and will not happen here, is someone providing proof some iota of evidence that God has directly spoken to them.

Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  ::shrug::

Quote

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?


Quote
Another point I wanted to bring from the article:
Finally, there is a very obvious flaw in the assertion that the Lord is speaking directly to people today. Such a view allows anyone to fabricate, out of thin air, any claim he or she wishes, with no demonstrative means available of either confirming or exposing the statement.This is another point that those who claim God directly speaks to them cannot overcome.  They can only provide claims and never provide proof.

Aw-w-w c'mon Gomer, this on requires an application of basic scripture


Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. Matthew 7:20

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1


Can two walk together, except they are agreed? Amos 3:3

 
Quote
(2) the bible teaches what kind of holy life the Christian is to live, what kind of people to associate with and the kind to say away from and how to deal with people and I can use these standards to choose what type of profession I am in, where I live, with whom I make friends, etc.   

So did the bible SPECIFICALLY tell you what profession to get into?

Did it specifically tell you who, by name should be your friends?

Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

Where in the bible does it tell you where you should buy a home? How did you come to decide your home is the specific place the bible is leading you to or did you just choose it in and of yourself or did God direct your path in choosing your home?

Yes the bible tells us what kind of people would make good friends....

But where in the bible does it tell you exactly who to pick as a friend?

In other words for example Johnny doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, goes to church every week, studies and obeys the word and Samuel is just like Johnny in all of these ways ...yet Sammy is your friend and Johnny is not....

In fact there are a lot of people like Sammy even in the city where you live and the church that you attend, even in the very neighborhood where you live ....so the question is

Where in the bible did it tell you to choose Sammy as a friend and not Johnny or any other person?

If you've attended College, where in the bible does it tell you which College to choose?

In addition

I'm sure you pray?

In praying do you ask God for answers?

Do you expect Him to answer you?

Does He ever answer you and if He does how? Does he tell you to turn to a specific Book Chapter and Verse for your answer or does He directly answer your prayer by speaking to you?  ::reading::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:05:47
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation.

There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.


Quote from: Debbie_55
God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

There's another condition you speak about.  Can one be saved if he does not me the condition of accepting God's free gift of salvation?


Quote from: Debbie_55
If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.

You keeping arguing there are no conditions, but do a good job in listing conditions as above you list the conditions of believing and confessing and accepting God's free gift.  Heb 5:9 Jesus made obedience to Him a condition of being saved.  Obedience is a condtion Christ has layed on man and it  is up to man to meet it.

Is belief a choice man must make to be saved, but belief is not a condition to be saved?  Is this your position?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:30:09
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Gomer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:39:03
Quote from: gospel
Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  ::shrug::

Sorry, this response does not work, it is a cop out.  I am not an atheist yet I want proof from you.  You demand proof from others yet will you will not give any yourself.  You claim God speaks directly to people yet provide no proof but expect people to just believe you anyway.  Again, your argument is dead without any proof, with no evidence.

Quote from: gospel
Quote

(1) Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?

I have not argued that God does not still speak, the question is the means by which He speaks.  Does He speak directly or through His word?  Obviously He can speak through His word, you have not provided any proof He speaks directly to people today.

Quote from: gospel

Aw-w-w c'mon Gomer, this on requires an application of basic scripture


Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. Matthew 7:20

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1


Can two walk together, except they are agreed? Amos 3:3

Now you are quoting verses but not one provides any proof that God still speaks directly to you or anyone else directly.

Quote from: gospel
So did the bible SPECIFICALLY tell you what profession to get into?

No.  It does not tell anyone what profession they should be in, but the bible gives moral outlines in matters that Christians should not engage in therefore Gomer cannot be a male prostitute.

Quote from: gospel
Did it specifically tell you who, by name should be your friends?

No, but the bible tells me being around bad people can influence me to to bad things.


Quote from: gospel
Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

I live where I was born, it is where my family, relatives and friends are so I chose to stay here.

WHere did you get the idea that God has to directly speak to people and tell them what to do for a living, what friends to choose or where to live?

Quote from: gospel
Where in the bible does it tell you where you should buy a home? How did you come to decide your home is the specific place the bible is leading you to or did you just choose it in and of yourself or did God direct your path in choosing your home?


I can buy a house anywhere I choose to, or least can afford to.

Again, where do you get the idea that one can only live where God directly tells people to live?


Quote from: gosepl
Yes the bible tells us what kind of people would make good friends....

But where in the bible does it tell you exactly who to pick as a friend?

Again, where do you get the idea that the only friends I can have are the ones God directly tells me I can have?

Quote from: gospel
In other words for example Johnny doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, goes to church every week, studies and obeys the word and Samuel is just like Johnny in all of these ways ...yet Sammy is your friend and Johnny is not....

Maybe because I have do not know nor ever met Samuel.

 I meet good moral religious people all the time but they are not all my best friends. Some appeal to me more than others because I like some personalities better than others types, they may share is the same interests or hobbies as I do, they may live closer to me so I see them more.

Quote from: gospel
In fact there are a lot of people like Sammy even in the city where you live and the church that you attend, even in the very neighborhood where you live ....so the question is

Where in the bible did it tell you to choose Sammy as a friend and not Johnny or any other person?

If you've attended College, where in the bible does it tell you which College to choose?

In addition

I'm sure you pray?

In praying do you ask God for answers?

Do you expect Him to answer you?

Does He ever answer you and if He does how? Does he tell you to turn to a specific Book Chapter and Verse for your answer or does He directly answer your prayer by speaking to you?  ::reading::

God's word does not tell me specifically where to live or specific friends am I to have nor does God speak directly to people and tell them all these specifics.   Again, where do you get the idea that God has a specific place for me to live and specific friends to have?  You do not get this from the bible so you must be making this up in your own mind.




Again, when will you provide the proof, provide any evidence that God speaks directly to man today?

You continue to ask question of me but refuse to answer my request.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:08:00
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:27:39
Quote
Sadly that is what atheists say about all of us, we have no proof. But we expect that from them, they have no means of discerning Truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit and nor do they know Him.
There challenge to us to provide proof He even exists  I don't know, what do you think?

Quote
Sorry, this response does not work, it is a cop out.  I am not an atheist yet I want proof from you.  You demand proof from others yet will you will not give any yourself.  You claim God speaks directly to people yet provide no proof but expect people to just believe you anyway.  Again, your argument is dead without any proof, with no evidence
.

I am not asking or demanding proof from you...I'm trying to ascertain how a Spirit led person is led to choose a profession, a home, a spouse and friends

Since being led by the Spirit means GOD IS LEADING YOU, I'm simply asking you that if God is not speaking directly to you in these matters, how is he indirectly leading you through the bible


Quote
Quote
Heb 1:1,2 says God changed His method in how He speaks to man and nowhere does the NT say God speak directly to men today.

Actually it doesn't say the method changed, it actually says God changed the PERSONS, THROUGH WHOM HE SPEAKS

The bottom line is GOD STILL SPEAKS.

The difference is He no longer speaks through The patriarchs and the prophets, instead He speaks through His Son!

Since God is STILL speaking, Someone has to HEAR what He is saying ...correct?

I have not argued that God does not still speak, the question is the means by which He speaks.  Does He speak directly or through His word?  Obviously He can speak through His word, you have not provided any proof He speaks directly to people today.

Yet in your zeal you missed the point completely...
I'll repeat it

God spoke through the patriarchs ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

God spoke through the angels ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

God spoke through the prophets ...in other words, God spoke to them and they spoke to God's people...correct?

NOW

God speaks through His Son...correct?

That means  ...in other words,

God spoke to Jesus and Jesus speaks to God's people...correct?

With one added difference, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit whom He said would only speak those things He has said...correct?

Now I'm pretty sure you believe Jesus is Alive...don't you?

If you believe that Jesus is Alive then what I'm saying to you is

God did not change His Method,

He is still speaking!

The difference He is not speaking through the patriarchs, through angels or prophets instead, He is speaking to us through His Son and On behalf of the Son, the Holy Spirit speaks to us as well!

That is how we are Spirit led! The Holy Spirit says go here, you go here He says don't go there...then you do not go there, Holy Spirit says do this then you do what He said, When He says don't do this, then you do not do it

at least that's how leading usually works  ::shrug::


Quote
Did it specifically tell you where you should live?

In other words...

The city in which you live and your home

Where in the bible does it tell you what kind of city to live in? How did you come to decide to live in the city where you live, did you choose it or did God lead you in your decision?

Quote
I live where I was born, it is where my family, relatives and friends are so I chose to stay here.

WHere did you get the idea that God has to directly speak to people and tell them what to do for a living, what friends to choose or where to live?

It's not my own idea, it's what the bible says

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

God's children are led by His Spirit so....if your profession, where you live and who you marry are all your own choices that you have made and not prayed to God asking Him for direction, guidance and answers as to your choices...
....then you are leading yourself and merely expect Him to follow you instead of Him leading you and you following Him

You said the bible leads you, so all I'm asking you where in the bible does it tell you what profession God has ordained for you and what to city has God called you to do His Will on earth.

Bottom line... either God leads you or He does not and if He does lead you He has to speak to your heart, the only thing left is for you to hear Him.

The question is ...

Are you listening or are you just leading yourself


Quote
Again, where do you get the idea that the only friends I can have are the ones God directly tells me I can have?

Because you are Spirit led believer!

If you are not Spirit led you can be friends with anyone you desire?
Quote
God's word does not tell me specifically where to live or specific friends am I to have nor does God speak directly to people and tell them all these specifics.   Again, where do you get the idea that God has a specific place for me to live and specific friends to have?  You do not get this from the bible so you must be making this up in your own mind.

Because a Spirit led believer will not live somewhere that God has not directed them to live...they would not be comfortable.
They would say things like ...it's something about this house that doesn't suit me or there is something about this neighborhood that I am drawn to

A more extreme example is: I've been having a consistent yearning towards Peru or Haiti or Nigeria or India
I believe God has a work for me to do there

Unfortunately though there is no Book, Chapter or Verse in the bible that says Gomer or gospel ...go to Nigeria I have a work for you there...is there?

Another example: Lately I've been moved with compassion towards those young men who's lives are caught up in the penal system. Every day my heart is consistently aching towards young men, most of whom grew up without a father, I pray about it and find myself in tears ...I believe God is telling me to go into prison ministry.

Again unfortunately there is no Book, Chapter or Verse that says Gomer or gospel I want you to go into prison ministry I have a work for you to do there.

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 15:29:35
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

And thank you Jimmy for your kind, thoughtful, spirit filled words for

 you dear sir, are a true saint  

At least I believe you are  ::tippinghat::

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 17:04:02
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

And thank you Jimmy for your kind, thoughtful, spirit filled words for

 you dear sir, are a true saint  

At least I believe you are  ::tippinghat::



But since you have no basis for what you believe, what you believe really doesn't matter one way or the other.  It is just a random thought. It is simply a statement that can have no meaning attached to it.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 17:34:55
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

And thank you Jimmy for your kind, thoughtful, spirit filled words for

 you dear sir, are a true saint  

At least I believe you are  ::tippinghat::



But since you have no basis for what you believe, what you believe really doesn't matter one way or the other.  It is just a random thought. It is simply a statement that can have no meaning attached to it.

You're not right but I believe you think you're right and since you do, in your way of believing ...that is all that really matters 
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Insight on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 17:45:01
Quote

flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom - Jesus said He had flesh and bones not flesh and blood.


True.

Quote

I'm still waiting for scripture to prove that Jesus did not ascend in His new body.

Jesus very clearly told his discples - I am not a spirit, handle me and see - I have flesh and bones, a spirit does not.

Jesus even ate with them which proves this. Jesus will carry the nail scars in His hands for all eternity - how could a spirit do this?

Quote

This is true also.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Who here is teaching another Jesus?
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Jimmy on Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 18:06:07
Quote
There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.

One really has no control over what one believes

Belief is illusive in that way...

Either one believes or one does not

There was a time when I did not believe the Bible at all, I was well read in not only the Bible but in many other spiritual matters

I knew about Moses, Abraham and even played the role of Jesus in a church play but....

Eventually I realized I did not believe Jesus was God come in the flesh

How did I come to believe?

One day Jesus came into my heart, I was convicted of unbelief, my heart was pierced I was overcome simultaneously with Joy of finally knowing Him and the Sorrow of having rejected Him for so long

It had nothing to do with me choosing to believe Him and everything to do with my heart being opened supernaturally to receive His Truth

You either believe or you do not

Those things you believe, you cannot prove or explain you just believe it or you do not

I believe the story of Noah

I believe the story of Adam and Eve

Can I explain either ....OF COURSE NOT

I believe Jesus was Born of a Virgin

I believe He was the Word wrapped in flesh

I believe He died and rose from the dead

I believe He Loves Me

Can I prove any of it ....OF COURSE NOT

I simply BELIEVE IT

Now those of us who believe can discuss what we believe on the basis of scripture because

WE BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

CAN WE PROVE THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD....of course not!

WE BELIEVE IT! ::reading::

You have tried to make that case several times before.  It really is quite ridiculous.  That is a pathetic understanding of what it means to believe.  That you have so little basis for what you believe perhaps explains why your interpretations of so much of the Bible have so little basis also.

Yes you can discuss what you believe with others but you should not ever take issue with what someone else believes because you have no basis that what you believe God says in His word is what God means in His word.  Your understanding has no more basis and is no more rational than your belief.

And thank you Jimmy for your kind, thoughtful, spirit filled words for

 you dear sir, are a true saint  

At least I believe you are  ::tippinghat::



But since you have no basis for what you believe, what you believe really doesn't matter one way or the other.  It is just a random thought. It is simply a statement that can have no meaning attached to it.

You're not right but I believe you think you're right and since you do, in your way of believing ...that is all that really matters 

But of course you have no basis for believing that either.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 12:33:42
condition - the particular mode or state of being of a person or thing

choice - the act of choosing or selection

Condition only appears once in scripture 1Sa 11:2  And Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. (no emphases on this particular verse, just showing the word condition)

Grace and salvation is a free gift from God given to those who will believe and confess per John 3:3 and Romans 10:9, 10 to all who will answer Gods' call to salvation.

There is the condition.  Can those who do not believe and confess still be saved?  They could if there were no conditions.


Quote from: Debbie_55
God gives us choices, but it is the condition of our mind set or dare I say a hearts condition to accept Gods' salvation through his grace as it is given freely to those who will accept it. It is only the condition of the person of where they are in their life whether it's a good place or a bad place as many answer Gods' call and have never had any despairing problems that caused them to seek Christ other than wanting to have a personal relationship with him in their life.

There's another condition you speak about.  Can one be saved if he does not me the condition of accepting God's free gift of salvation?


Quote from: Debbie_55
If God set conditions on us in order to receive salvation through Christ then there would be no reason for grace nor the life, death and resurrection of Christ who made an end to the curse of the law which is sin, not the law itself as Jesus came to fulfill not destroy the law. In all I read about Gods covenant promises I read these words, and, if and but. Now  these three words are conjunctions which means choices as I do not see them as conditions. The condition lays with us, not God as it depends in what frame of mind we are in.

You keeping arguing there are no conditions, but do a good job in listing conditions as above you list the conditions of believing and confessing and accepting God's free gift.  Heb 5:9 Jesus made obedience to Him a condition of being saved.  Obedience is a condtion Christ has layed on man and it  is up to man to meet it.

Is belief a choice man must make to be saved, but belief is not a condition to be saved?  Is this your position?

When someone hands you a gift on your birthday is there a condition set forth before you to receive this free gift or is the condition being that it's your birthday and this is why you are receiving a free gift?

What do you feel the condition is in order to receive the free gift of salvation and grace? Satan believes and yet trembles at the name of Christ, yet refuses to accept the free gift of coming back to God for forgiveness of sin. We believe through faith, even when it was weak at first in us, but yet enough to be built upon through belief, acceptance and forgiveness as I can only see this as choices we make to come to these three. Did Jesus put conditions on us before we accepted him as our Lord and Savior or did he meet us where we were before allowing him to come and be our Lord and Savior, because I know I was in sin before receiving and at times I still sin after all these years of accepting him, but now forgiven after confessing my sin to him as I am forgiven by his grace even though grace does not give us a license to sin, but since we still live in this flesh we will fall short at times. I guess I just do not know what your definition of the word condition is. All I know is that the law, even though weak in faith, was our schoolmaster exposing sin in us until one was made the final blood sacrifice (grace) for all our sin that we can now be made sinless by the righteousness of God in us through belief and acceptance of His Spirit being our schoolmaster teaching us how to be pleasing to the Father to bring him glory.

If this is being a condition so be it, but I only see it as choices we make as condition is our own mindset.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 13:19:11
Quote
When someone hands you a gift on your birthday is there a condition set forth before you to receive this free gift or is the condition being that it's your birthday and this is why you are receiving a free gift?

We've been here done that several times, yet some of these condition folks hit a brick wall of understanding on this topic...

...they turn around and give you scenarios that include built in conditions and then point the conditions out they have themselves included in the scenario

To which I explain true Salvation is like a man, helpless on his back, unable to move, unable to do anything but call on Jesus, who comes to him and picks him up and carries him to safety

The only condition if it can be called that.... is calling on Jesus

We've come a long way in stretching the practical boundaries of reason when we define asking to be saved... as a condition  ::frown::

For there is not one single thing in this world that one can ask and receive immediately without any effort

Other than Salvation ::reading::

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: DaveW on Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 13:20:38
Quote
Satan believes and yet trembles at the name of Christ, yet refuses to accept the free gift of coming back to God for forgiveness of sin.

Wow is that based on faulty assumptions.

It is not that he refuses to accept a free gift, there is no free gift for him or his minions.  God never became an angel and died for their sins.  The work of the cross applies to humans only.

He can believe all he wants, he can try to "accept" all he wants.  It will never work because that opportunity will never be offered to him.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 13:30:23
Quote
Satan believes and yet trembles at the name of Christ, yet refuses to accept the free gift of coming back to God for forgiveness of sin.

Wow is that based on faulty assumptions.

It is not that he refuses to accept a free gift, there is no free gift for him or his minions.  God never became an angel and died for their sins.  The work of the cross applies to humans only.

He can believe all he wants, he can try to "accept" all he wants.  It will never work because that opportunity will never be offered to him.

On top of that Satan though knowing who Jesus is does not really believe Jesus is Lord....

What Satan really believes is that he himself is lord

That's the whole basis and gist of the war between The Kingdom of God and the dominion of darkness

Satan is self deceived and deceives anyone who does not fully embrace and Love The Truth

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Debbie_55 on Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 14:48:46
Quote
Satan believes and yet trembles at the name of Christ, yet refuses to accept the free gift of coming back to God for forgiveness of sin.

Wow is that based on faulty assumptions.

It is not that he refuses to accept a free gift, there is no free gift for him or his minions.  God never became an angel and died for their sins.  The work of the cross applies to humans only.

He can believe all he wants, he can try to "accept" all he wants.  It will never work because that opportunity will never be offered to him.

Thank you Dave for pointing this out as it is a faulty assumption to think Satan could be anything else other than a spirit as my point did not come across well here (sorry) as I was trying to make a point that even Satan's deceit came from a condition of his mind set of the choice he made.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: gospel on Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 11:36:16
Quote
Satan believes and yet trembles at the name of Christ, yet refuses to accept the free gift of coming back to God for forgiveness of sin.

Wow is that based on faulty assumptions.

It is not that he refuses to accept a free gift, there is no free gift for him or his minions.  God never became an angel and died for their sins.  The work of the cross applies to humans only.

He can believe all he wants, he can try to "accept" all he wants.  It will never work because that opportunity will never be offered to him.

Thank you Dave for pointing this out as it is a faulty assumption to think Satan could be anything else other than a spirit as my point did not come across well here (sorry) as I was trying to make a point that even Satan's deceit came from a condition of his mind set of the choice he made.

Yep Satan doesn't qualify, he is not a human being, not born of water

Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: cjb1955 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 - 06:00:28
Keeping the Law is like paying on a Car that has already been paid for. When Jesus said it is finished, the Law is fulfilled. The Car has been paid for. Why do we keep paying on the Car? Are we following Right or wrong, or Good Evil. We should be following Good and Evil.
Title: Re: Law vs. Grace
Post by: Amo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 - 08:41:14
Quote
Keeping the Law is like paying on a Car that has already been paid for. When Jesus said it is finished, the Law is fulfilled. The Car has been paid for. Why do we keep paying on the Car? Are we following Right or wrong, or Good Evil. We should be following Good and Evil.

I suppose you mean following good, not evil, not good and evil.  Tell me, just exactly how does one determine good from evil?  Do we just all figure it out ourselves now?  What did Jesus mean by the following words He spoke in the last chapter of the last book of the bible?

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Rev 22:12-16 (KJV)