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Offline Debbie_55

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Law vs. Grace
« on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 12:49:38 »
I will not post all 613 Mosaic/Levitical laws as it's to lengthy, but you can look them up online. Point being if you want to live under the law, which by the way was only for the Israelite for their transgressions and not given to the Gentile nation, then you must live by all the law in order to be made righteous and sinless before the Father and remember there is a curse if you break even one. Jesus never came to destroy the law, but came to fulfill all the law through his life, death and resurrection to redeem us from the curse of the law to live under Gods' new covenant that saves or redeems us by his grace that no matter who you are or where you are from Christ is all and in all who answer Gods call of salvation to be Spiritually renewed by his Spirit. You can either live by the law or choose to live by grace as it is a personal choice, but you can not live by both and only choose those laws you want to follow. And by the way, the 10 commandments are part of the 613 laws and not a separate set of laws.

Old Mosaic Covenant                       New Spiritual Covenant 

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14           NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3     Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39        Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6          Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7              Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12      UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13         ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                    PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19          Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                  Uncircumcised... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10                NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3        PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11      MELCHIZEDEK priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5      HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18   POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13              ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13      Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13         Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15         SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7            Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

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Law vs. Grace
« on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 12:49:38 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:00:32 »
Please read Acts 21.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #1 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:00:32 »

Offline Giver

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:18 »
(Galations 5:13-26)

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #2 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:18 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:54 »
Please read Acts 21.


Ok, I read Acts 21, and?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #3 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:22:54 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline DaveW

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:59:10 »
Did you catch the part about keeping the Jewish believers to obeying Moses?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #4 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 13:59:10 »



Offline OldDad

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #5 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:18:53 »
One of the best resources I've ever read on this topic is Alva McClain's "Law and Grace"



The best 5 dollars I ever spent.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #5 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:18:53 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #6 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:32:38 »

Law vs. Grace


Law and grace are not at odds with each other for grace includes law, they go together like hand-in-glove.  Receiving God's grace is conditional upon keeping God's law/commandments/ordinances.

Offline OldDad

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #7 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 14:40:21 »
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:02:30 »
God extended grace to mankind when He did not have to, so His grace is extended to man unmerited but man has to meet God's conditions to receive this unmerited grace.

I can give someone $1000.00, they did not do anything to merit it I am just giving it to them out of my good grace.  Yet for them to receive the free money they must come to my house to get. Coming to my house is a condition to receive the money that has already been offered to them for free.  Their coming to my house does not earn them the money for it was already offered to them for free.  If they do not meet this condition then they will not receive the money.


If grace was not conditional then there would be no basis God would use to determine who would receive grace and who would not and receiving grace would be totally capricious.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:02:30 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #9 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:31:47 »
God extended grace to mankind when He did not have to, so His grace is extended to man unmerited but man has to meet God's conditions to receive this unmerited grace.

I can give someone $1000.00, they did not do anything to merit it I am just giving it to them out of my good grace.  Yet for them to receive the free money they must come to my house to get. Coming to my house is a condition to receive the money that has already been offered to them for free.  Their coming to my house does not earn them the money for it was already offered to them for free.  If they do not meet this condition then they will not receive the money.


If grace was not conditional then there would be no basis God would use to determine who would receive grace and who would not and receiving grace would be totally capricious.

As I explained to someone else who once tried to use a similar analogy...

What you have done is give us an example in which you have imposed your own predefined conditions...Salvation however is not like coming to your house to get some money.

Therefore

The analogy of coming to your house falls flat because Jesus comes to meet us right where we are in no matter what condition we are in simply because we call on His Name.

Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!

If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it

But I can't think of anything else in life I can have by simply asking for it

That's the fullest extent of Grace

God is Extravagant towards us....extra giving

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #10 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 15:55:16 »
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #11 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:04:05 »
Quote from: gospel

As I explained to someone else who once tried to use a similar analogy...

What you have done is give us an example in which you have imposed your own predefined conditions...Salvation however is not like coming to your house to get some money.

God has His set of 'predefined conditions' to receive grace.  One has to meet the condition of believing, Jn 8:24; repenting of sins, Lk 13:3,5; confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and being baptized, Mk 16:16.  Again, if there is no condition then receiving God's grace is totally capricious.


Quote from: gospel
Therefore

The analogy of coming to your house falls flat because Jesus comes to meet us right where we are in no matter what condition we are in simply because we call on His Name.

Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!

If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it

But I can't think of anything else in life I can have by simply asking for it

That's the fullest extent of Grace

God is Extravagant towards us....extra giving

Man is to come to Christ:

Mt 11:28 "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Jn 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. "

Jn 7:37 "In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. "

Lk 6:47,48 "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock."

First you said "...Jesus comes to meet us right where we are..."

If Jesus comes to man unconditionally, then is it just randomness as to whom Christ will come to and who He will not come to?

Then you said ".....simply because we call on His Name" and "...Call Jesus, He shows up that's Grace!"  You then say "If you want to describe calling on His Name as a condition, so be it.'

Then 'so be it' for calling on Him is a condition and my point still stands.  Calling would be as much a condition that must be met as coming to my house to get the free money is a condition that must be met.



« Last Edit: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:16:37 by Gomer »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #12 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:40:28 »
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #13 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 17:47:34 »
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

But ...if an unsaved person is riding a train cross country and while crossing a river on a bridge, the bridge collapses, the train falls into the river and within the remaining minutes before it sinks and everyone drowns, the unsaved person calls on the name of Jesus, repents for having rejected Him all his life....

That person will be saved!

So if calling on Jesus can be described as a condition so be it but I can't think of anything in this life or anything in this world a person can get just by calling on a name

Much less something as precious as the Salvation of ones very soul  ::shrug::
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:08:26 by gospel »

Offline candy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:01:15 »
All power and glory to our great Savior Jesus Christ.

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #15 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:07:20 »
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

Ok then having to ask for something is a condition as well?

So if you're making the distinction that a guy sitting on a park bench, eating peanuts, feeding pigeons, not thinking about Jesus or God cannot be Saved unless they accept it ...who could argue that!

Of course that's true, no one especially me is trying to say everyone on planet earth is Saved whether they want to be or not, without first expressing a desire to be so. That would be like saying everyone can go swimming in the ocean but the condition of going swimming is going to the ocean

However if someone doesn't want to go swimming in the ocean they won't even consider going there.

People who want to be Saved only have to ask Jesus into their heart...

But they will only ask because they desire to

Therefore the only true condition is their desire, not receiving....asking

For everyone who asks will..... receive

Sorry....but no matter how you slice or dice it, none of us met any conditions to be Saved

We desired it, so we asked Jesus into our hearts, He came


Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #16 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:09:59 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #17 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:10:58 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

 ::amen!::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #18 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:22:52 »
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

But ...if an unsaved person is riding a train cross country and while crossing a river on a bridge, the bridge collapses, the train falls into the river and within the remaining minutes before it sinks and everyone drowns, the unsaved person calls on the name of Jesus, repents for having rejected Him all his life....

That person will be saved!

So if calling on Jesus can be described as a condition so be it but I can't think of anything in this life or anything in this world a person can get just by calling on a name

Much less something as precious as the Salvation of ones very soul  ::shrug::

So calling on Jesus is all the same as believing and is all that is needed?  Interesting.  I wonder why Paul didn't describe his own conversion that way (Acts 22:16).  I guess he was mistaken.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #19 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:25:36 »
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

How does one go about accepting that free gift? Perhaps just a " Thank you, Jesus"?  Or is there more to it?

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #20 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 18:40:31 »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Amo

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #21 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 19:13:16 »
Quote
Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

The two are not add odds, unless one thinks it is the keeping of the law that saves them, rather than keeping it because they are saved, out of love.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deut 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God,to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.








Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #22 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 19:15:39 »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #23 on: Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 20:22:08 »
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #24 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 05:57:43 »
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.


If that was an attempt to answer my question concerning the passage that speaks about "asking Jesus to come into our hearts," I think you missed it. None of those say any such thing.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #25 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 06:23:27 »
Romans 14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.  2) For one believeth that he may eat all things:  another, who is weak, eateth herbs.  3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:  for God hath received him  4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?  to his own master he standeth or falleth.  Yea, he shall be holden up:  for God is able to make him stand.  5) One man esteemeth one day above another:  another esteemeth every day alike.  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.  He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.  8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:  whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.  9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  10) But why dost thou judge thy brother?  or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?  for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.  11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more:  but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #26 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 07:17:48 »
Galatians 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ....... 5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  …… 7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham ………….. 9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.  10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:  for it is written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  11) But that no man is justified by the law, in the sight of God, it is evident:  for:  The just shall live by faith.  12) And the law is not of faith:  but The man that doeth them shall live in them …………….. 14) That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:  that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith …………….. 18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:  but God gave it to Abraham by promise.  19) Wherefore then serveth the law?  It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator …………..  21) Is the law then against the promises of God?  God forbid:  for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,  that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  …………  24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 4:4) But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.  5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.  7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #27 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 07:55:37 »
Galatians 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  ……….. 4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  …………… 14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …………… 18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved: ) …………..8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:  it is a gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. ……. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; …………. 18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ………….  

Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism.  6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. …………. 13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

Offline geronimo

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #28 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:31:55 »
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Revelation 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #29 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:43:11 »
1st Thessalonians 5:15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  16) Rejoice evermore.  17) Pray without ceasing.  18) In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  19) Quench not the Spirit.  20) Despise not prophesying.  21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.  23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1st Timothy 1:8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.

1st Timothy 6:11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.  12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2nd Timothy 2:11) It is a faithful saying:  For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:  12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:  if we deny him, he also will deny us.  13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful:  he cannot deny himself. ………… 15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  16) But shun profane and vain babblings:  for they will increase unto more ungodliness…………. 22) Flee also youthful lusts; but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
 
Titus 3:4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.  5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #30 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 08:45:54 »
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Revelation 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Those are two different doors.  In the case of the Gospel of John, Jesus figuratively speaks of Himself as the door to the kingdom; the door through which we must go ot enter the kingdom.  In Revelation He is obviously not speaking of Himself as the door.  He doesn't enter "through Himself".

Offline Gomer

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #31 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 10:48:06 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #32 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 11:52:14 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.



Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #33 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 12:00:50 »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

In Rom 11:6 the works Paul speaks of are works of merit.  If the Jews could save themselves by works of merit then no grace is needed.  In Whitesides' commentary on the Roman epistle, he made the following good point (my emp):  

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?"


This is what is meant by asking Jesus into your heart as it's all a heart decision and no conditions as Jesus meets us where we are when we answer that knock at the door and enter in.
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally. It's a hearts condition (which is the only condition as you have to choose to accept grace or reject grace) that opens the door to Gods' grace and allows God to change whatever needs changing in our lives to be pleasing to the Father.

Titus 2:11 for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us.  All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by the laws, our works or good deeds that save us as this is only our own selfrighteousness and we know according to Isaiah 64:6 our selfrighteousness is as a filthy rag to God for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

You referenced Romans 10:9

Rom 10:9  .... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord......

Then you said:

"Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally."

Is the statement by Paul in Rom 10:9 a condition or not?

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #34 on: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:42:19 »
Quote
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Number 1 -In the OT they had to approach God, they had to go to Him... however in the NT God came to us.

Number 2 - Scripture says God comes to us

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Number 3 - The door is figurative and even at that Jesus is knocking waiting for us to answer

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Quote
By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

There is no one specific verse for the Trinity either, however we know of the Trinity because of the totality of the preponderance of scripture that points toward the Truth of it.

In this case believing in our hearts is a result of accepting Jesus into our hearts

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8:37



And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

He calls we answer, We call He answers ....anyway you put it
He knocks we open the door, we ask we receive...anyway you put it

We are not earning it, we are not attaining a standard to qualify

Quote
gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here

Scripture speaks for itself
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 10, 2011 - 13:55:04 by gospel »