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Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 05:07:20 PM »
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

Ok then having to ask for something is a condition as well?

So if you're making the distinction that a guy sitting on a park bench, eating peanuts, feeding pigeons, not thinking about Jesus or God cannot be Saved unless they accept it ...who could argue that!

Of course that's true, no one especially me is trying to say everyone on planet earth is Saved whether they want to be or not, without first expressing a desire to be so. That would be like saying everyone can go swimming in the ocean but the condition of going swimming is going to the ocean

However if someone doesn't want to go swimming in the ocean they won't even consider going there.

People who want to be Saved only have to ask Jesus into their heart...

But they will only ask because they desire to

Therefore the only true condition is their desire, not receiving....asking

For everyone who asks will..... receive

Sorry....but no matter how you slice or dice it, none of us met any conditions to be Saved

We desired it, so we asked Jesus into our hearts, He came


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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 05:07:20 PM »

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 05:09:59 PM »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 05:09:59 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Either we deserve to be in heaven or we need a Savior.  Pick one.  

Either my own self righteousness saves me, or his righteousness does the job.  Pick one.

Either we are saved by keeping the law, or we are saved by faith.  Pick one.

Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

Shalom

 ::amen!::

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 05:22:52 PM »
The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor," so if it's conditioned by anything, it's not grace.

Grace is there for everyone.  So then grace is not conditional upon anything.  However salvation which is by grace is indeed conditional.  It is conditional upon faith for a start; and that is not the only condition.

But ...if an unsaved person is riding a train cross country and while crossing a river on a bridge, the bridge collapses, the train falls into the river and within the remaining minutes before it sinks and everyone drowns, the unsaved person calls on the name of Jesus, repents for having rejected Him all his life....

That person will be saved!

So if calling on Jesus can be described as a condition so be it but I can't think of anything in this life or anything in this world a person can get just by calling on a name

Much less something as precious as the Salvation of ones very soul  ::shrug::

So calling on Jesus is all the same as believing and is all that is needed?  Interesting.  I wonder why Paul didn't describe his own conversion that way (Acts 22:16).  I guess he was mistaken.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 05:22:52 PM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 05:25:36 PM »
Per John 3:16, the free gift (grace) of salvation is offered to all. To be appropriated, acceptance of the free gift must occur, or the free gift is not appropriated, therefore salvation is conditioned upon accepting it. If it is not accepted, the free gift for that individual floats unappropriated forever, and the person is lost though the free gift only needed to be grasped. The grasping neither earns nor adds cost to the free gift.

Accepting something that is freely given is a condition ...ok fine!

How does one go about accepting that free gift? Perhaps just a " Thank you, Jesus"?  Or is there more to it?

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 05:25:36 PM »



Offline gospel

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 05:40:31 PM »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 05:40:31 PM »

Amo

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 06:13:16 PM »
Quote
Either we impress God with our holiness in accordance to the law, or our love for him.  It is really one or the other.

The two are not add odds, unless one thinks it is the keeping of the law that saves them, rather than keeping it because they are saved, out of love.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deut 11:22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God,to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.








Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 06:15:39 PM »
I call Jesus He comes into my heart....I'm saved!

God made it that simple knowing the inherent pride of the human heart, some people would boast and in doing so qualify themselves and disqualify others

We who are Saved have nothing to boast about all we did was ask and receive

As a test try this in the safety of your own home

Sit in your favorite chair, lie down in your bed or sit at the kitchen table

Then

Ask for a BMW

Ask for a bicycle

Ask for all your bills to be paid

Ask for your mortgage or rent to be paid

Ask for an Ipad

Ask for a Timex watch

Ask for a Bic pen

Ask for whatever you like....let us know if any of it just comes  ::shrug::

On the other hand

When someone asks for Jesus to come into their heart

He does just that

The other stuff does have conditions

Jesus does not

You call, He comes!

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

By the way, could you point out the passage of Scripture that speaks about asking Jesus to come into our hearts?  I don't recall reading that anywhere. I know a lot of people talk about that but I just don't remember having read it.

And what is this about "You call, He comes"?  I thought for sure you said a couple of times that He calls and we come.  Which is it.  I don't see how it can be both.

gospel, if I didn't know better I would swear that you are just winging it here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 07:22:08 PM »
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 07:22:08 PM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 04:57:43 AM »
John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:  he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.  37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me:  and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.  38) For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  39) And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,  but should raise it up again at the last day.  40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:  and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 Matthew 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  8) For every one that asketh ,receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.


If that was an attempt to answer my question concerning the passage that speaks about "asking Jesus to come into our hearts," I think you missed it. None of those say any such thing.

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 04:57:43 AM »

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 05:23:27 AM »
Romans 14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.  2) For one believeth that he may eat all things:  another, who is weak, eateth herbs.  3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:  for God hath received him  4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?  to his own master he standeth or falleth.  Yea, he shall be holden up:  for God is able to make him stand.  5) One man esteemeth one day above another:  another esteemeth every day alike.  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.  He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.  8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:  whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.  9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  10) But why dost thou judge thy brother?  or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?  for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.  11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more:  but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2011, 06:17:48 AM »
Galatians 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ....... 5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  …… 7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham ………….. 9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.  10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:  for it is written, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  11) But that no man is justified by the law, in the sight of God, it is evident:  for:  The just shall live by faith.  12) And the law is not of faith:  but The man that doeth them shall live in them …………….. 14) That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:  that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith …………….. 18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:  but God gave it to Abraham by promise.  19) Wherefore then serveth the law?  It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator …………..  21) Is the law then against the promises of God?  God forbid:  for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,  that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.  …………  24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 4:4) But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.  5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.  7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2011, 06:55:37 AM »
Galatians 5:1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  ……….. 4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  …………… 14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. …………… 18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved: ) …………..8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:  it is a gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. ……. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; …………. 18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ………….  

Ephesians 3:17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 4:3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism.  6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. …………. 13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

Offline geronimo

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2011, 07:31:55 AM »
Does one need to walk through that door?  Or is it enough just to stand there looking in?

Revelation 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

p.rehbein

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Re: Law vs. Grace
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2011, 07:43:11 AM »
1st Thessalonians 5:15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  16) Rejoice evermore.  17) Pray without ceasing.  18) In every thing give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  19) Quench not the Spirit.  20) Despise not prophesying.  21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  22) Abstain from all appearance of evil.  23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1st Timothy 1:8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.

1st Timothy 6:11) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.  12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2nd Timothy 2:11) It is a faithful saying:  For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:  12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:  if we deny him, he also will deny us.  13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful:  he cannot deny himself. ………… 15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  16) But shun profane and vain babblings:  for they will increase unto more ungodliness…………. 22) Flee also youthful lusts; but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
 
Titus 3:4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.  5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.