Author Topic: Leopard's Spots  (Read 569 times)

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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Leopard's Spots
« on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 11:56:25 »
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Jer 13:23a . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?

The answer to both those questions is of course "no" because if an h.sapiens is born with black skin, it stays black; and if a cat is born with spotted fur, its stays spotted. In other words: the color of an Ethiopian's skin, and the spots on a leopard's fur, are indelible; they're permanent.

Jer 13:23b . . Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

The apostle Paul said something similar in Rom 7:7-24; which is pretty much summed up in verse 18, which reads thus:

"I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh"

The Greek word for "flesh" is sarx (sarx); which basically indicates the meaty parts of either man or beast; i.e. the body. The meaty parts of course consist of not only muscle and fat; but also the organs and the brain and the nervous system along with the eyes, the ears, and the tongue. Those are all "meaty" parts.

What Paul is saying in Rom 7:7-24 is that the human body has a will of its own, and it quite naturally, and quite intrinsically, has a predilection for evil instead of good. In other words; any man who would be 100% righteous is in for a fight against nature, i.e. a fight against his own self-- an inner conflict that (speaking from experience) can lead to a mental disorder or a nervous breakdown.

Ironically, should someone manage to succeed in a war with themselves, in the long run it will be for naught because all they will have done is suppress their body's natural predilection for evil rather than get rid it.
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Leopard's Spots
« on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 11:56:25 »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #1 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 14:08:06 »
Greetings NyawehNyoh,
What Paul is saying in Rom 7:7-24 is that the human body has a will of its own, and it quite naturally, and quite intrinsically, has a predilection for evil instead of good. In other words; any man who would be 100% righteous is in for a fight against nature, i.e. a fight against his own self-- an inner conflict that (speaking from experience) can lead to a mental disorder or a nervous breakdown.

Ironically, should someone manage to succeed in a war with themselves, in the long run it will be for naught because all they will have done is suppress their body's natural predilection for evil rather than get rid it.
Yes, I agree with what you say, but Paul moves on in Romans 7:25 and Romans 8:1-4 to speak of the victory wrought in Christ and that we can walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 Kind regards
 Trevor

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 07:23:43 »
 author=NyawehNyoh link=topic=105189.msg1055153618#msg1055153618 date=1577555785]
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Quote
Jer 13:23a . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?

The answer to both those questions is of course "no" because if an h.sapiens is born with black skin, it stays black; and if a cat is born with spotted fur, its stays spotted. In other words: the color of an Ethiopian's skin, and the spots on a leopard's fur, are indelible; they're permanent.

Jer 13:23b . . Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

That is an interesting take, but I'm not sure this is the message God was sending here.  The idea that God created a Leopard with spots, then punished it because it has spots is not the message here, at least if you consider the Scriptures before and after, in my view

Jer. 13:22 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore (WHY) come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

24 Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness.

25 This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.

26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.

God is rebuking them here, not because of how they were created. That would be unjust, and dishonest and I don't believe God is either one. If we listen to Him, He gives us the very reason why these men are committing wickedness. They forgot Him and trusted in another.

27 I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?

These scriptures beg the question; Is it even possible for these examples to "Remember God" and trust in HIS Word's?

It is written in the New Testament many years after Jesus rose from the dead. "For the Law is not for the Righteous, but for sinners". It seems the cure for their ailment was there in front of them, they just refused to hear it.

Jer. 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

This chapter places the blame for this wickedness on the person who chooses it. It's not that they "CAN'T hear His word's, it's that they "REFUSE" to hear His Words.

The Spirit of Christ also inspired Jeremiah to write the following.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

But who really believes this, Right? You even say striving to follow these instructions will cause mental breakdowns.

 "But they said, We will not walk therein."

Is this not the very reason for their woes?

Quote
The apostle Paul said something similar in Rom 7:7-24; which is pretty much summed up in verse 18, which reads thus:

"I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh"

The Greek word for "flesh" is sarx (sarx); which basically indicates the meaty parts of either man or beast; i.e. the body. The meaty parts of course consist of not only muscle and fat; but also the organs and the brain and the nervous system along with the eyes, the ears, and the tongue. Those are all "meaty" parts.

What Paul is saying in Rom 7:7-24 is that the human body has a will of its own, and it quite naturally, and quite intrinsically, has a predilection for evil instead of good. In other words; any man who would be 100% righteous is in for a fight against nature, i.e. a fight against his own self-- an inner conflict that (speaking from experience) can lead to a mental disorder or a nervous breakdown.

Ironically, should someone manage to succeed in a war with themselves, in the long run it will be for naught because all they will have done is suppress their body's natural predilection for evil rather than get rid it.
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Rom. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Death)

Again, Paul understands the struggle between natural human desires which are contrary to God's Law. "Who shall deliver me" he says. Then He answers the question. He is "renewed" in his mind (heart). He denies him self as the Christ instructed. He doesn't "refuse" to hear God's Word, Rather, he serves the Law of God in his mind which directs his flesh.

This is a definition of the same Word's this Same Christ gave to Cain.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

How? By serving the Laws of God, made for the sinner, in our mind, thus ruling over the desires of the Flesh.

The Flesh is still there, evil is still in man, but it no longer rules him.

We "endure" this condition, waiting for the redemption of our body. And those who "Endure" to the end, shall be saved.

Rom. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (Oh Wretched man that I am) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature (US) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


Hard to believe when we have centuries of religions teaching us not to trust in the Very Word's of God that He made for the sinner.




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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #2 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 07:23:43 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 08:39:17 »
Greetings NyawehNyoh,Yes, I agree with what you say, but Paul moves on in Romans 7:25 and Romans 8:1-4 to speak of the victory wrought in Christ and that we can walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 Kind regards
 Trevor

+1 manna for this answer.

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #3 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 08:39:17 »
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 12:26:46 »
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It's not all that difficult to show that Jesus Christ is Adam's biological progeny; which of course attests that he's a genuine h.sapiens rather than an imitation, i.e. a look-alike rather than the real thing; viz: a counterfeit.

Yet according to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus Christ never committed one single solitary sin in his entire life, which is quite remarkable considering that his crucified body was no different than anybody else's body in all respects.

Heb 2:13-18 . . "Here am I, and the children God has given me."

. . . Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil-- and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

. . . For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

According to that; in order for priests to be effective, one of their qualifications is that they have to be able to empathize with their constituents. So; in order for Jesus to satisfy that requirement, he had to be a genuine h.sapiens; which entails having a genuine h.sapiens body.

So my question is: How does someone with a body made of genuine h.sapiens flesh-- a body made of the sarx spoken of in the OP --manage to get thru life without committing a single, solitary sin?
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« Last Edit: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 13:25:42 by NyawehNyoh »

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 12:26:46 »



Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 08:36:35 »
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It's not all that difficult to show that Jesus Christ is Adam's biological progeny; which of course attests that he's a genuine h.sapiens rather than an imitation, i.e. a look-alike rather than the real thing; viz: a counterfeit.

Yet according to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus Christ never committed one single solitary sin in his entire life, which is quite remarkable considering that his crucified body was no different than anybody else's body in all respects.

Heb 2:13-18 . . "Here am I, and the children God has given me."

. . . Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil-- and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

. . . For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

According to that; in order for priests to be effective, one of their qualifications is that they have to be able to empathize with their constituents. So; in order for Jesus to satisfy that requirement, he had to be a genuine h.sapiens; which entails having a genuine h.sapiens body.

So my question is: How does someone with a body made of genuine h.sapiens flesh-- a body made of the sarx spoken of in the OP --manage to get thru life without committing a single, solitary sin?
_


I think one must first identify the source of the idea or notion that it is impossible for a man to be obedient to God. That God created man knowing he can not obey, and then punished him when he doesn't obey. This is leaven, and if we believe it, it will effect the entire body.

I think we must also identify the source of the notion that God's Laws are so burdensome, so egregious, so unjust, that man can not possibly honor God in obedience to them. There is not one place where this is taught in the entire Bible. This is the religious "other voice" that deceived Eve.

Prov. 22: 4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life. 5 Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them. 6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Even Jesus "learned obedience" from the things He suffered. I have no reason to reject or distrust any His Word's.

 We have everything we need to "Run the race that is set before us". We have God's Law which was made for the sinner. We have escapes promised by God for Every Temptation. We have the Armor of God to wear in our fight against the "other voices". We are "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses" so as to learn what choices to make, and not make.

We have Jesus, the perfect example of a Godly Man, the Author of our faith, to show us the way, and chastise us when we wander off the path He walked. All we need is belief enough to "DO" as He instructs. Something the "other voice" has taught against from the very beginning.

So given these things, I would say Jesus was able to overcome every temptation by following the instructions, and using the tools His Father created for all mankind.




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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 08:36:35 »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 10:41:13 »
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FAQ: If it's true that Jesus Christ is Adam's biological progeny, then wouldn't he have been born with a "body of death" just like everybody else? (Rom 7:24)

A: Yes, and in point of fact the Bible says that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh rather than in the likeness of righteous flesh. (Rom 8:3)

The Bible also says of Jesus that he was "made like his brothers in every way". (Heb 2:13-18)

The Bible also says that Jesus was made of David's seed according to the flesh, viz: made of David's body. (Acts 2:29-30, Rom 1:3)
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Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 11:31:57 »
 author=NyawehNyoh link=topic=105189.msg1055153701#msg1055153701 date=1577724073]
Quote
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FAQ: If it's true that Jesus Christ is Adam's biological progeny, then wouldn't he have been born with a "body of death" just like everybody else? (Rom 7:24)

Is. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

But there is a difference between Jesus the man and Paul the man. Jesus was brought up in the way that He should go, whereas Paul spent most of his life zealously following a religion which was serving satan.

Not saying one was easier than the other, rather, that we all have a cross to bear, while following the Christ, just as Jesus had a cross to bear, while following His Father.


Quote
A: Yes, and in point of fact the Bible says that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh rather than in the likeness of righteous flesh. (Rom 8:3)

The Bible also says of Jesus that he was "made like his brothers in every way". (Heb 2:13-18)

The Bible also says that Jesus was made of David's seed according to the flesh, viz: made of David's body. (Acts 2:29-30, Rom 1:3)
_

Absolutely. " And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus knew who He was, and it seems you do as well. Good topic.




Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 03:51:11 »
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Jer 13:23a . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?

The answer to both those questions is of course "no" because if an h.sapiens is born with black skin, it stays black; and if a cat is born with spotted fur, its stays spotted. In other words: the color of an Ethiopian's skin, and the spots on a leopard's fur, are indelible; they're permanent.
The Ethiopian cannot change his skin nor can the leopard change its spots.  But God can do both.

Quote
● Jer 13:23b . . Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

The apostle Paul said something similar in Rom 7:7-24; which is pretty much summed up in verse 18, which reads thus:

"I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh"
The whole point of the passage in Romans 7 is that (1) Grace means that the Law is not bad (vv.7-13);  (2)The Christian continues to struggle against sin (vv. 14-25).  But then the answer to the question of whether one can change his ways is given immediately following in Romans 8.  Paul shows (1) how victory over sin comes through the Holy Spirit (vv. 1-13) and (2) how assurance of the final and total victory over sin comes from God through the Holy Spirit (vv 14-39).

Thus with God's help man can do good things even if he can't be good as God is good, i.e., perfect in all things.

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 03:51:11 »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #9 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 11:30:15 »
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1Pet 1:18-19 . .You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.


FAQ: If human flesh has a will of its own, and it quite naturally, and quite intrinsically, has a predilection for evil instead of good; and if there is no good thing in human flesh; and if the human body is a "body of this death"; and if Jesus Christ was Adam's biological progeny; and if Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh rather than righteous flesh; and if he was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and if he was made like his brothers in every way; then how can the blood in Jesus Christ's flesh be compared to the blood in the flesh of a lamb without spot or blemish?

One of the goofiest responses to that question that I've yet to encounter is that Jesus' blood wasn't normal blood, it was God's blood.

Well; that sounds reasonable but according to Acts 17:26, God has made all men of one blood. So if Jesus Christ is fully man, then his blood was just as much the one blood that's in all the rest of us; which of course is Adam's.
_

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 14:55:55 »
Quote
author=NyawehNyoh link=topic=105189.msg1055153740#msg1055153740 date=1577813415]
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1Pet 1:18-19 . .You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.


FAQ: If human flesh has a will of its own, and it quite naturally, and quite intrinsically, has a predilection for evil instead of good;

Free will simply means the ability to choose. A human baby is born with the ability to choose. It will naturally choose its own desires over the will or desires of others, even to its own detriment. It can not survive exercising its own free will. This is why God created a circumstance with humans where a "superior" being, a parent, takes care of the child. At first the human forces the child to deny its own will and follow theirs, for its own good. Many times while the child is kicking and screaming in protest. If the baby were allowed to call its own shots, it would surely perish. It's not that the baby chooses evil or good, for it has no knowledge of the difference. It only chooses its own desires. It must learn to "Trust" the parents will over its own will. The child that learns to do this has a greater chance of survival.

Quote
and if there is no good thing in human flesh; and if the human body is a "body of this death";

Paul understood this creational fact. As the child, he will always choose his own desires, even when they are not good for him. He has free will, but to exercise this will, will most assuredly result in his destruction just like it would for the baby. Like the Child, he must learn to "deny himself" and trust a superior being, over his own will, to direct him. To "give up" His Free Will, until he learns how to wield it. Paul trusted in the God of the Bible to be the superior "parent". So then with his mind, the part of his being which controls the body, he serves the "will of God", like Jesus did.

As he teaches.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God (God's Will) after the inward man:

23 But I see another law (Free Will) in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; (God's Will)  but with the flesh (Free will) the law of sin. (Death)


Quote
and if Jesus Christ was Adam's biological progeny; and if Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh rather than righteous flesh; and if he was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and if he was made like his brothers in every way; then how can the blood in Jesus Christ's flesh be compared to the blood in the flesh of a lamb without spot or blemish?

Jesus provided the perfect example of self denial. He was God who had everything, all power, things we can not even imagine. But He risked it all for the Will of His Parent, or Father. Not for Himself, but to give "Gifts unto men".

He was taught at an early age in the way that He should go. He learned to deny His own human desire and Trust God over His own Will early in life.

Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

He trusted His Father giving up His His Free will from a very early age.

Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus was the perfect human. He was taught at an early age to "trust" a superior being with His Will.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This is the perfect example of "Denying ones self" and following the Word God.


Quote
One of the goofiest responses to that question that I've yet to encounter is that Jesus' blood wasn't normal blood, it was God's blood.

Well; that sounds reasonable but according to Acts 17:26, God has made all men of one blood. So if Jesus Christ is fully man, then his blood was just as much the one blood that's in all the rest of us; which of course is Adam's.
_[/size][/font]

 It is written that the Life is in the Blood. It was His Life that made His Human Blood special. He had free will as do we all, He was human as we all are, yet He didn't trust in His human self or His own Free will, but gave it to His Father and Trusted Him with it like the perfect Son.

We are called to do the same.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (all) Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, (his free will) and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life (Free Will) shall lose it; (No free will in death) but whosoever shall lose his life (Free Will) for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

This all makes perfect sense to me as I understand that an eternity with immortal beings with Free Will that spend their time serving themselves over the well being of others would be a disaster. Like any human, We must first learn to trust the Will of the Father before we are free to wield our own.




Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 04:31:01 »
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FAQ: I've heard it said that ancestral blood is inherited via the father rather than the mother. Seeing as how Jesus didn't have a father, then how could he possibly inherit Adam's blood?

A: In the beginning, God made the first woman with human material taken from the first man's body. (Gen 2:21-22)

As a result, Eve was Adam just as much as Adam was Adam. (Gen 5:2)

"Adam said: This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" (Gen 2:23)

Therefore, all biological offspring produced from Eve's flesh-- whether normally conceived or virgin conceived --comes into the world with flesh of Adam's flesh, and bone of Adam's bones.

Now; unless someone can prove beyond any shadow of sensible doubt that Mary and Eve were not biologically related, then we must conclude that any progeny produced from Mary's flesh, no matter how, would be bone of Adam's bones and flesh of Adam's flesh; viz: Adam was just as much Jesus Christ's father as he is everyone else's father.

In point of fact, God predicted that Eve's progeny would one day destroy the serpent (Gen 3:15). So then, if Jesus Christ were not Eve's progeny, then he could not be the one predicted to destroy the serpent. But if Jesus is the predicted progeny, then Eve is his mother and Adam is his father.

There are quite a few Christians who would really like to take Adam out of Jesus' biological genealogy, but the only way to do it is to take Mary's flesh out of the stream, and ultimately Eve's; which is no doubt at least one of the reasons why the surrogacy theory is so popular.


NOTE: The life of the flesh is in the blood (Lev 17:11) so I think we may safely assume that when God took Adam's flesh to make Eve's flesh, some of Adam's blood came with it; which means that Eve's blood was Adam's blood; and so on, and so on, down the line to Mary, and thereby to Jesus.

And seeing as how Eve's bones were made of Adam's bones, then her bones replenished Adam's blood in her flesh as its cells gradually died off like normal blood cells do. The self-same process would've taken place in Jesus' flesh and bones too seeing as his flesh and bones were Adam's flesh and bones.


FAQ: How could you possibly know Adam's blood type in order to verify it was in Jesus' flesh?

A: There are several human blood types-- A, B, AB, and O, along with the Rh groups. However, any blood-- regardless of its type or its group --is Adam's blood if it's human blood because Adam is the only human being that God created from scratch. All other human beings, including his wife, are Adam's direct biological descendants including, but not limited to, Jesus Christ and his mother.
_

Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 04:42:50 »
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; (God's Will)  but with the flesh (Free will) the law of sin. (Death)
This is precisely the sort of interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of Scripture that has you so thoroughly confused in just about all areas of Biblical Theology.

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:09:50 »
This is precisely the sort of interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of Scripture that has you so thoroughly confused in just about all areas of Biblical Theology.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression of God's Law) unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Not sure how to miss-interpret "Serve the law of God" given Paul's own teaching above.

After all, Paul did teach: "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Why does the phrase "Serve the Law of God" trigger you so much?






Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:32:06 »
Why does the phrase "Serve the Law of God" trigger you so much?
It doesn't trigger me at all.  That you have interpreted anything I said as being triggered by that phrase only demonstrates what I have observed with so much of your interpretation.

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 09:55:46 »
.
FAQ: In order for Mary's conception to produce a male child, her ovum would need a Y chromosome; which only a man's gamete can provide. From whence did she get it?

A: Some say she got it directly from God via the Holy Spirit as per Luke 1:35, but I'm inclined to suspect that Jesus got the Y chromosome from his virgin mother's body via a miracle.

In the beginning God made the first woman with human material taken from the first man's body (Gen 2:21-22) so that the woman became just as much Adam as Adam; she is not a discrete creature made independently of the man out of sand or dirt and rock. She was made from the flesh and bone of an already existing human being's flesh and bone. (Gen 2:23, Gen 5:2)

Seeing as how God constructed an entire woman-- top to bottom --from a sample of the man's flesh and bone, then I do not see how it would be any more difficult for God to construct a dinky little Y chromosome from a sample of a woman's flesh and bone.

And seeing as how a woman's flesh is Adam's, then any Y chromosome that God might construct from woman's flesh would be Adam's seeing as how Eve's flesh was made with Adam's flesh.

God didn't have to create a Y chromosome ex nihilo, same as he didn't have to create a woman ex nihilo. He made her from something human already existing, which served to keep her in Adam's family. In the same vein, by making a Y chromosome from a woman's flesh and bone, it keeps Jesus' genes all in the Adams' family too.
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« Last Edit: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 10:25:48 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 10:26:59 »
.
FAQ: According to Jer 31:29-30 and Ezek 18:20, the father's guilt is not laid to the account of his posterity for the evil he has done. So then, how was it legal for God to condemn the entire human race to death for what Adam did?

A: According to Deut 5:1-3, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, the laws of God do not have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: they aren't retroactive. So at the time of the forbidden fruit incident, God was at liberty to impute the guilt of Adam's transgression to his entire posterity, which of course began with Eve seeing as how according to Gen 2:21-23, her flesh and bones were made of his flesh and bones. In effect; Eve was Adam's first child; and from her came everyone else. (Gen 3:20)
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« Last Edit: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 11:40:08 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 13:39:18 »
.
FAQ: The Bible predicts that it would be Eve's seed that eventually destroys the Serpent. Doesn't that clearly indicate there would be no traces of Adam in the final stage of Jesus' biological origin?

A: There are times in the Bible when a woman's "seed" simply refers to her offspring-- her children --and isn't meant to exclude a male ingredient. For example Gen 16:8-11 where God speaks of Ishmael as Hagar's seed; however that doesn't mean Ishmael was virgin-born because Gen 21:13 speaks of him as Abraham's seed too

To my knowledge none of Eve's children were virgin-born. The perpetuation of her seed spoken of at Gen 3:15 was made possible only by conjugal relations with a man. (Gen 4:1-2, Gen 4:25)

In other words: Eve's "seed" doesn't speak of her ovum, rather, it speaks of her posterity, which all came about via the participation of hundreds, maybe even thousands, of men down thru the centuries-- most especially Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob --and I have no plausible reason to believe that God preserved some of Eve's eggs so that later on one could be implanted at just the right moment in Mary's womb to produce Jesus.
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« Last Edit: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 08:27:41 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #18 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:07:55 »
It doesn't trigger me at all.  That you have interpreted anything I said as being triggered by that phrase only demonstrates what I have observed with so much of your interpretation.

We never really know how you come by your "observations" because mostly you only accuse, you seldom explain why. The only thing that seems consistent with you is your refusal to discuss, in any honest way, questions regarding your own interpretations.

 As for mine;

Quote
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; (God's Will)

As for this part of my post that you singled out, while ignoring the rest, Is this the part you preach to the world I am misinterpreting?

 I might ask you this question.

 "In your religion, was it "God's Will" that Paul Serve His Law in his mind?"

If you said yes, I would ask; "Then why are you accusing me of interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of scripture?"

If you said no, I would ask; "Is Paul then, in your religion, going against the Will of God by serving His Laws in his mind?"

Or is this the part of my replay you singled out as "interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of scripture"?

 
Quote
but with the flesh (Free will) the law of sin. (Death)

Again, having no "cause" or explanation of your accusations, I have no other way of finding out what the "interpretive nonsense" is you are referring to, unless I ask you to define it.

So I ask, "does the flesh have a will"?

If you said no, the flesh has no will, then I would ask; "Then why are we told to deny it?"

If you said yes, the Flesh has a will of it's own, then I would ask; "Then why do you accuse me of "interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of scripture".

In your religion, is the "Law of Sin" not death? Isn't it the "Will of the Flesh" of the true believer that is "Crucified with Christ"?

Did Jesus "Serve the Law of God" in His mind, or was He led by the Will of His Human Flesh?

Does a prisoner of Christ have "free will"? Does a servant of Christ have Free Will?

 I would say no 4WD, they had free will before they "Denied themselves" and became His servant. As a prisoner or servant they are ruled, not by their own human will, but by the will of their New Master.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God (My new master) but with the flesh (My fleshy will) the law of sin. (death)

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

If you are going to accuse someone of "interpretive nonsense and intrusive rewriting of scripture" you should, at the very least, show a cause for your judgment. This way we can see if your accusation is wrought in God or just another fleshy judgment from religious man.

In this way both you and I are edified. If my interpretation, according to a detailed examination by God's Word, is "nonsense and intrusive rewriting of scriptures", I would be corrected by God's Word and edified.

 If your judgment is based on religious doctrines and traditions of men, and not God's Word, but from your Flesh, then you too could be corrected by God's Word and edified.

But making accusations against people without showing cause, edifies no one.
 




Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #19 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 07:24:59 »
But making accusations against people without showing cause, edifies no one.
Your absurd interpretations of so much of Scripture are the cause.  As for edification, your interpretations which find virtually no concurrence of any recognized scholarship edify no one.

Offline RB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 08:36:51 »
I could and would answer reply #18, but see little profit in doing so, on such subjects, because all he does is chasing his own tail much like cats do to entertain themselves. But, I have not ruled it out, only because I do not want such men to think they even remotely have any truth, much less some. I have two people in my immediate family near death, so I'm limited to how much time I can even think, much less to deal with heretics.

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #21 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 08:37:22 »
Your absurd interpretations of so much of Scripture are the cause.  As for edification, your interpretations which find virtually no concurrence of any recognized scholarship edify no one.

By absurd interpretations, are you talking about the teaching that God's Laws condemned men based solely on the DNA the were born with?

The Bible clearly doesn't teach this. Or if it does, no one has been able to document it. So someone teaches this. Can you direct me to your "Recognized Scholarship" that does?





Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #22 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 09:05:55 »
I could and would answer reply #18, but see little profit in doing so, on such subjects, because all he does is chasing his own tail much like cats do to entertain themselves. But, I have not ruled it out, only because I do not want such men to think they even remotely have any truth, much less some. I have two people in my immediate family near death, so I'm limited to how much time I can even think, much less to deal with heretics.

Personally I would much rather you answer for your own preaching, before addressing my reply to 4WD.

Quote
He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and He gave us a new Lord’s Day~Sunday (Matthew 12:8).

Matt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

There can be no question that Jesus is referring to HIS own Sabbath, He created at creation. Yet you preach to the world that Jesus changed His Sabbath to the Catholic tradition of Sunday in this scripture.

Now come on Red, your a big boy, you know what you did here. Why don't you just fess up and admit that Jesus didn't change God's Laws, any of them, in Matthew 12? It's not a shame to be deceived, but to continue to promote lies even after the lies have been exposed, that is a shame.

And while you are at it. You preach to the world that Paul calls the Commandments of God "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

I have asked over and over, "how is it these non-believers were following the Commandments of God before they even knew God?"

Can you name even one religion in this world that doesn't have high days or holy times that are NOT Commanded by God? Every religion of the world has High Days not created or given by God. Even you have High Days that are not mentioned even once in the Bible.

So again, why do you hide from this question. "how is it these non-believers were following the Commandments of God before they even knew God?" in Gal. 4:8.

But we both know why you don't answer Red. You know full well that these unbelievers were not following God's Commandments before they knew God. It is just another falsehood you have been convinced of. There is no shame in being corrected Red. That is what the Holy Scriptures are for.

So why don't you fess up, humble yourself to the truth of God's Word, and admit you were deceived regarding Paul calling God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements" in Gal. 4.



Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #23 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 11:05:43 »
By absurd interpretations, are you talking about the teaching that God's Laws condemned men based solely on the DNA the were born with?
Neither I nor anyone I know has ever said  or taught that. But it does demonstrate again your absurd interpretations, both of what any here say and what God says.


« Last Edit: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 11:08:18 by 4WD »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #24 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 11:15:40 »
.
Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Back in the mid 1960s-- when I was a young single guy around 24 years old living solo in a tiny rented room in a family home's daylight basement --I had lots of time to myself to think about things since I had no friends, nor any kind of social contact whatsoever other than at work. I wasn't distracted with a girl friend, nor by pals and beer buddies, nor by an obsessive hobby. It was just me, my 1961 Volkswagen, and a 305 Honda motorcycle that I rode all over northwest Oregon.

I thought about Hell a lot back in those days; and the very real possibility of my ending up there. It occurred to me at the time that it would be a whole lots easier to comply with God's wishes if only I were like Him instead of like me. Doing bad is easy for me because I'm bad without thinking about it whereas doing good is a fight against nature. If only I could do good as naturally as God does good; I'd have it made.

Another thought crossed my mind back in those days. Let's assume that I could somehow manage to be pious enough in this lifetime to qualify for Heaven. Then what? I was pretty sure I could never manage to be pious for all eternity: possibly in this life, but certainly never in the next; no, I could never keep it up forever. Sooner or later my true colors would show themselves.

I envied people like Moses because he had Heaven in the bag while I had no clue about my future; though I was fairly sure that for me, Hell was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

I didn't know it at the time, but I was very fortunate to be thinking those kinds of thoughts because right around then I ran across a solution to my problem in the Old Testament that says:

"I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you.

. . . And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do them." (Ezek 36:24-27)

Those promises were made to the Jews so of course I, being a Gentile, couldn't expect God to let me in on them. But just think of the tremendous advantages that passage speaks of. Whereas I am normally and naturally impious, with those promises in hand I could become just the opposite, viz: I could become normally and naturally pious. Ezek 36:24-27 really perked me up and lifted my spirits because it gave me a light at the end of the tunnel whereas before then, I had none.

Eph 2:11-22 tells how that God has a way for Gentiles to share in the Jews' benefits. The light at the end of the tunnel spoken of above is available to everyone on Earth regardless of age, race, color, or gender; which the apostle Peter sums up by saying:

2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for life and piety through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature.
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« Last Edit: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 09:48:02 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 16:36:06 »
Neither I nor anyone I know has ever said  or taught that. But it does demonstrate again your absurd interpretations, both of what any here say and what God says.

Your own preaching;

Quote
"It was ethnic Israel  that received the Law.  The Law was the partition between the Jew and the Gentile. It was God who placed that partition between the Jew and the Gentile.  That you believe otherwise comes, as you constantly proclaim, not from God's word but from the religions of the land."

And again; Your own preaching;

Quote
The Law was the division between the Jew and the Gentile.  The Law was given by God.  It was given to the Hebrew, the Jew, Israel.

Your own word's preaching to the world that God created "LAW" that relegated men born of a certain DNA as "aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel, without God, and without hope in the world".

But when a man reads the Holy Word's of the Law Giver, here is what God's Law says about the "non-Jew";

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger (Non Jew by blood) shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, (Jew) and unto the stranger (Non-Jew) that sojourneth among you.

And again; God's Word's regarding "ethnic Non-Jews"

Lev. 19:33 And if a stranger (Non-Jew) sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. (alienate him from the commonwealth of Israel)

Lev. 19:34 But the stranger (Non-Jew) that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

But you preach to the World, as your own words show, that "God Laws" condemned men who were not born with Jewish Blood. That it was God who placed the partition between men born with certain DNA.

And that Jesus removed "Laws of God",  that you preach rendered men born with a certain DNA as "without God, and without Hope in the World".

It was not God's Law, at least according to HIS OWN LAW, that relegated men born without Jewish blood as "without God, and without hope in the world". It was the "Commandments of Men" taught as Law by those who God placed in charge of administering God's Laws.

Jesus didn't remove God's Law that commanded; "And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him". That you would imply that He did, which you most certainly do, is another indication that it is your interpretation that is flawed.

 But He did remove the religious law of the land. " Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;"

A Law that God never Gave to Israel. But a "Commandment of man" taught as Law by the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet.

"but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

What God hath cleansed, (Non-Jews that sojourn among you) that call not thou common.

 You can insult and ridicule me for pointing out the hypocrisy in your own teaching, this is very common tactic among religious men as the examples of the Pharisees clearly show.

Or you can consider that maybe the Word's of the Bible are right, and the "Enmity" even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, were not from God's Law at all, but from the "Commandments of
Men" Jesus said the Pharisees taught for doctrines.



Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 04:53:24 »
Yet once again you show your lack of comprehension and understanding.  You said,
By absurd interpretations, are you talking about the teaching that God's Laws condemned men based solely on the DNA the were born with?
The partition between the Jew and the Gentile was the Law given by God to the Jew and not to the Gentile.  But all men, not just those of a particular DNA, are condemned by their own sins. The Law wasn't given to produce sin; sin always existed; all men sin.  The Law was given to identify sin.

Offline GB

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 06:52:24 »
Yet once again you show your lack of comprehension and understanding.  You said,  The partition between the Jew and the Gentile was the Law given by God to the Jew and not to the Gentile.  But all men, not just those of a particular DNA, are condemned by their own sins. The Law wasn't given to produce sin; sin always existed; all men sin.  The Law was given to identify sin.

Yes, God's Law was given to identify sin. As He said, for the Jew and the non-Jew. "One Law"!

In what way did God's Laws, any of them, relegate the Non- "Ethnic Jew" as "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, without God and without Hope in the World" when God Himself, said His Law was for the Jew and the non-Jew alike? As He said in HIS Law, anyone who believes in the Passover Lamb shall be considered "Home born".

The point being it wasn't God's Law that made the "non Ethnic Jew" without hope and without God in the world.

This is why you can't find even one Law that condemns a man as "without God and without Hope in the world" based on DNA, because no such Law of God exists. The partition between "ethnic" Jews and non- Jews were placed there by the same religious men who taught it was against God's Law to take a walk and eat a blueberry on God's Holy Sabbath, the same religious men who taught for centuries that it is a sin against God to eat an apple without first washing their hands. The same religious men whose "LAW" condemned the only sinless man ever born, to death.

An entire religion taught as LAW for centuries that Jesus exposed as "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

God did not place a partition between men. God's Law did not relegate men, born of a certain blood line, as "Without God and Without Hope in the world".

I know this is the teaching of the land. I know this is what both you and I were taught since our youth. But 4WD, it just isn't true.

The enmity isn't God's Law. God's Law is not against us. But the Religious doctrines and traditions of religious men are.

How many times in the Bible are we warned against being deceived by God's Law? How many times in the Bible are we warned against being deceived by religious men?

We may never agree on this. But my reasoning here is based 100% on Every Word of God.

 Surely you can see the point.



« Last Edit: Mon Jan 06, 2020 - 06:44:22 by GB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Leopard's Spots
« Reply #28 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:08:03 »
We may never agree on this. But my reasoning here is based 100% on Every Word of God.
Your reasoning here is based upon poor interpretation and understanding of much of the Word of God.