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Offline DaveW

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Replacement theology
« on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 08:34:58 »
In a thread named "ALEXANDER CAMPBELL & “DISPENSATIONS

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Replacement theology
« on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 08:34:58 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #1 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 09:15:34 »
Perhaps you could give a brief description of what you think are the key elements of "replacement theology".  Based on cursory reading of the other thread it seems like there might be a difference in definitions.

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #1 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 09:15:34 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #2 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 09:43:20 »
I was thinking that too.

Briefly - (will give more later) replacement theology (RT) is any belief that the church has replaced the natural born Israelites as a chosen people, a people to which specific promises were made and specific covenants given.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Being 'added to' or 'grafted in' is NOT 'replacing' because the wording implies the original is still there.

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #2 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 09:43:20 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 18:58:31 »
I was thinking that too.

Briefly - (will give more later) replacement theology (RT) is any belief that the church has replaced the natural born Israelites as a chosen people, a people to which specific promises were made and specific covenants given.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Being 'added to' or 'grafted in' is NOT 'replacing' because the wording implies the original is still there.

So who are God's chosen people now?

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 18:58:31 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #4 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 20:24:32 »
I have always had a problem with this idea of replacement theology, that being; to say that the church, or anyone else has taken the place of Israel, or the Jewish people is to say that God does not have the ability, or power to fulfill the unconditional covenants He made with this people, the Jews, and for the land.

To say there is now a spiritual Israel, is hog-wash; to say the Jews, or at least the 10 tribes are lost; is more hog-wash.

What are the facts? After 1900 years of dispersion, the Jewish people consisting of the 12 tribes are being gathered to the land, and Jerusalem is again their capital. Yes, they are still without their Messiah because of unbelief? Still without their temple, and temple worship? Yes. Without friends? Yes. Surrounded by their enemies as prophied? Yes. But watch as God begins to move.

This is real, and the end time enemies of the Jews are real, all doing exactly what God prophisied they would do.

Phil LaSpino

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #4 on: Tue Nov 01, 2011 - 20:24:32 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 05:51:33 »
So who are God's chosen people now?
The Jews.

Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

We gentiles get to participate in that, having been grafted in, (Rom 11.17) and so we become part of the "Commonwealth of Israel." (Eph 2.12)  But we are NOT the primary chosen people, the Jews are. In fact, one of the reasons we were even included in the first place was to make the Jews jealous of our relationship with their God.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 05:51:33 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #6 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 06:32:33 »
So who are God's chosen people now?
The Jews.

Rom 11.29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

We gentiles get to participate in that, having been grafted in, (Rom 11.17) and so we become part of the "Commonwealth of Israel." (Eph 2.12)  But we are NOT the primary chosen people, the Jews are. In fact, one of the reasons we were even included in the first place was to make the Jews jealous of our relationship with their God.

Rom 11:11 I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.


It is not "replacement".  It is according to plan from the beginning.  There was first the Old Covenant then there was the New Covenant.

Yes, Israel was God's chosen people.  But chosen for what? Paul answers that.

Rom 9:4  They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5  To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.


But the reason that Gentiles were included was because that was always God's intention.  God's promise to Abraham shows this to be the case.

Gen 12:2  And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3  I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."


Paul reiterates this in Rom 9  and Gal 3.

Rom 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7  and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8  This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


Gal 3:7  Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
Gal 3:9  So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


Notice also that even in Romans 11, the Jews who are children of the promise are grafted (back) in.

Rom 11:24  For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


Jesus is the tree.  All the saved of earth, Jew and Gentile, are "grafted in".
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 06:58:04 by Jimmy »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #7 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 06:56:18 »
Yes, unbelieving Jews get grafted back in when they come to faith in Messiah. It says they are broken off due to unbelief.

That leaves open the door that a Jewish child raised in the faith of Messiah may never get broken off. (a rare occurance to be sure)

I disagree that the Tree is Jesus. This passage is not a 1:1 parallel to where HE said "I am the vine and you are the branches."

The cultivated olive tree of Romans 11 is the historic Jewish/Israelite people.

David Stern wrote in his classic work "Restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel":
Quote
Christians must learn - whether from Ruth or from Paul - that in Jesus they become part of a great big Jewish family, and it is within this family relationship that they find God, along with His covenants, promises and hope. This is what is meant by the olive tree metaphor of Romans 11:17-24, which says that Gentile "wild branches" have been grafted into God's olive tree (the Jewish people) among the natural branches (Jews). What is spoken of here is not mystical but practical. Through faith in the Jewish Messiah a Gentile can have God-enhanced, God-blessed human relationships with Jews and with other Gentiles who have found Yeshua and accept Him as the atonement for their sins, as well as with Jews who haven't yet accepted Him.

If Jews fail to welcome Christians as "family," it's not the fault of the Jews but the fault of Christians who do not understand who they really are in Messiah Yeshua! And it therefore becomes the Christians' responsibility to re-think their identity so that they can do whatever will be necessary to undo centuries of misunderstanding between Jews and Christians and ultimately to make real their closeness and identification with the Jewish people.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #8 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 07:06:53 »
Rom 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18  do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Who or what is the root?

Also there is no longer an Old Covenant. 

Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Jew enters the kingdom today just as does the Gentile.

Gal 3:24  So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26  for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #8 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 07:06:53 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #9 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 07:25:08 »
Jimmy you are arguing against the bible.  That does not every come out good.

The root is Abraham. 

The "old covenant" is the Mosaic. 
That does NOT say the Abrahamic covenant is obsolete. 

The unbelieving Jew has a slightly different process of coming to the New Covenant.  Again from David Stern's "Resoring the Jewishness of the Gospel":
Quote
But there is a deeper reason for paying attention to the Jewish people, a reason that ultimately must shake the very identity of a Christian to its core. The foundational text is Ephesians 2:11-13:

"Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised - at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Israel. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God. But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood."

So, according to this passage, what is it that God, through His Messiah Yeshua, does for human beings? The answer: (1) He makes them concious of what sin is, and through Yeshua the Messiah He offers forgiveness of sin (this is taught in the ten verses preceding the above citation). Then, if they are Gentiles (such as Paul is addressing here) and therefore do not already belong to His own special people, the People of God, (2) He makes them part of the People of God, (3) He makes them participate in His covenants, (4) He fulfills His promises, (5) He gives them hope in this difficult world, and finally, (6) He makes His very Self known to them. If they are Jews and therefore do belong to the People of God, they already have items (2) through (6) and do not need to be given them again.

Thus assured forgiveness of sin is the last thing Jews get. Gentiles get forgiveness of sin first, but it is only through the Yeshua connection that Gentiles gain the covenants, the promises, hope and intimacy with God; and it is only because and when they have been joined to the Jews that they get these things. Jews have them already - but without forgiveness of sins through Yeshua's atoning death they gain nothing thereby in the world to come.

Thus there is sequencing to these six things, and the sequencing is different for Jews than for Gentiles. Sequencing may seem an unimportant detail, but I submit that at this time getting it right is the more important challenge facing the Body of Messiah!
.......
But the Gospel for Jews works differently. It's the same Gospel, but because the Jews are already God's people, the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah comes in a different way. It is still the case that through the Messiah, and only through Him, individual Jews receive atonement and forgiveness of sin - "For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!" (Acts 4:12). But Jews are not alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, they are the commonwealth of Israel! They already have the covenants and the promises; and therefore in a communal sense they already have hope and "have" God. Before accepting Yeshua, Jews do not "have" God and His hope in the same sense as after accepting Him. After accepting Yeshua they have hope and God in an individual, salvific sense - they have forgiveness of their sins, God sees them as righteous because of Yeshua's atoning death, and they have the certain hope of eternal life with God. Before accepting Yeshua a Jew does not have the certain hope of eternal life with God, but he does share in the communal promises to the Jewish people as a whole - for example, a share in the Land of Israel. A Jew needs God in both the communal and individual senses because this is how God has ordained that it should be.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #10 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 07:39:05 »
I didn't say the Abrahamic covenant was obsolete.  But the Abrahamic covenant included the Gentile from the outset.  That is what Paul declares in the passages that I posted.

I simply reject, on the basis of biblical confirmation, the two gospel concept.  There is neither Jew nor Greek....

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #11 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 08:17:43 »
Quote
There is neither Jew nor Greek....
If you take that to mean there are no differences rather than a basic statement of equal rights at the foot of the cross, then IN THE SAME SENTANCE where it says there is neither male or female, it must mean that gay marriage is OK since there is 'no difference.'  

OTOH, if you recognize a difference in one (Male Female), recognize it in the other as well. (Jew Gentile)

Side note: any time God creates a distinction it is for mutual blessing.

Male Female
Parent Child
Employer Employee (aka Master Slave)
Ruler Follower
Jew Gentile

Do not lose the blessing by obliterating the distinction.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #12 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 08:25:25 »
Quote
There is neither Jew nor Greek....
If you take that to mean there are no differences rather than a basic statement of equal rights at the foot of the cross, then IN THE SAME SENTANCE where it says there is neither male or female, it must mean that gay marriage is OK since there is 'no difference.'  

OTOH, if you recognize a difference in one (Male Female), recognize it in the other as well. (Jew Gentile)

Side note: any time God creates a distinction it is for mutual blessing.

Male Female
Parent Child
Employer Employee (aka Master Slave)
Ruler Follower
Jew Gentile

Do not lose the blessing by obliterating the distinction.

Gal 3:26  for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.


Is there a physical difference between male and female?  Yes of course.  But not in Christ Jesus.  Is there a physical difference between Jew and Gentile? yes of course.  But not in Christ Jesus.

In the physical there are many many differences.  In the spiritual there are only the lost and the saved. 

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Offline ChristNU

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #13 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 08:33:07 »

It is interesting that Matthew quotes Hosea the prophet saying, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #14 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 08:34:16 »
Jimmy - this idea that there should be no distinction between Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus  is at the very heart of replacement theology.

It is the same argument some women have used for claiming congregational leadership positions and the so-called gay church has used to say that gay marriage is biblically acceptable.

I understand it has at least 1800 years of being church doctrine. That does not make it right.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #15 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 08:36:55 »
Quote
It is interesting that Matthew quotes Hosea the prophet saying, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #16 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 09:44:44 »
Jimmy - this idea that there should be no distinction between Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus  is at the very heart of replacement theology.

It is the same argument some women have used for claiming congregational leadership positions and the so-called gay church has used to say that gay marriage is biblically acceptable.

I understand it has at least 1800 years of being church doctrine. That does not make it right.

It is not replacement.  The church did not replace physical or national Israel. National Israel is not nor was it ever the recipient of the promises of the Kingdom of God.  That is Jesus' message again and again.  Israel could never come to grips with the fact that the kingdom was not an earthly kingdom.  Right up until the day of Pentecost, even the apostles held that misguided view.

Act 1:6  So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

It took revelatory input by the Holy Spirit to get their thinking straight,

Act 2:32  This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33  Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35  until I make your enemies your footstool.'



The kingdom is now.  The King is on His throne.  He is Lord.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #17 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 10:46:46 »
Quote
The kingdom is now.  The King is on His throne.  He is Lord.
  ::amen!::

And He is called "King of the Jews."

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #18 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 11:25:27 »
Quote
The kingdom is now.  The King is on His throne.  He is Lord.
  ::amen!::

And He is called "King of the Jews."

Is He not your Lord?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #19 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 11:43:04 »
Absolutely He is.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #20 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 13:02:01 »
Lord of what if not His kingdom?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #21 on: Wed Nov 02, 2011 - 16:01:15 »
I would point out that Jews are the descendants of Judah, who is only 1 tribe of the 13 tribes of Israel.  There's plenty of room for the Jews to be Israel, and the rest of us to be Israel as well.  ::smile::

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #22 on: Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 22:52:51 »
Jesus said, "I am the way and no man comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6).
The Jew had the same chance to come to the Father as the Gentile.
The gospel of Christ is God's power to save both Jew and Gentile (Romans 1:16).

Let's keep before us that the fleshly descendants of Abraham, possessing Abraham's flesh and blood,
exists only in name today since the genealogies were destroyed during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
No man can prove that he is a "Jew" in the absolute sense of the word. Note Romans 2:28-30.

It was through Abraham and his seed that Christ should come in the flesh. They were "special" or "chosen" of
God for a purpose. To contend that the "alleged" blond haired, blue eyed, freckled faced man or woman living in
the state of Israel is a Jew is a stretch of the imagine. The people I saw in downtown Tel Aviv looked like the
people I would see in downtown St. Louis, Mo.

If you think the "Jews" in the State of Israel today are descendants of the ancient Israelites you need an
study in anthropology. They no more look like the ancient Jew than the Tutsies of Africa.

You are aware of Numbers, Chapter 1, where it specifically says that the pedigrees of families were to be numbered
by their generations of the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names from twenty years old
and upwards."
Why, those claiming to be "Jew" in Jerusalem today couldn't trace their linage any farther back than Germany,
Russia, Poland, or Paducah, Kentucky.

Has it ever crossed your Christian minds that if Christ had been acceptable to the Jew they would have not
brought about His death?
You are aware that in His death He shed His blood, which alone cleanses from sin, breaking down the "middle wall
of partition," the Mosaic system, which classified mankind as Jew and Gentile?
You are, as a Christian, realize that in order to make such a distinction again, this Mosaic law MUST be reinstated?
Give me a break! This would exclude the Gentile from covenant relationship with God.

So, you want to restor the types, shadows, animal sacrifices and burning of incense etc.?
And of course, to do this, the Temple would have to be rebuilt in Jerusalem as headquarters.
You want to go to Jerusalem and help lay the first stone as a Christian?
Why, as a Christian you cannot even mention Jesus on the streets of Jerusalem.
Try handing out a tract. It is against their law!

You want to bring your little lamb to the alter do ya? Sprinkle his blood all over the alter by a Levitical priest do ya?
Too late! The lamb of God was crucified for all mankind.
He, Jesus of Nazareth, on a cross outside the city, is the final alter for a sacrifice.
It is His blood that purchased forgiveness of sins for you, me, the "alleged Jew" in downtown Tel Avive and
the Tutsies in Africa.

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #23 on: Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 12:02:51 »
I have always had a problem with this idea of replacement theology, that being; to say that the church, or anyone else has taken the place of Israel, or the Jewish people is to say that God does not have the ability, or power to fulfill the unconditional covenants He made with this people, the Jews, and for the land.

So what do you call the disciples? Chopped liver? Did not Jesus give the keys of the kingdom to THEM? Were they not Israelites according to the flesh?

The Lamb's Wife (the Church) has written upon Her only the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev. 21). The twelve apostles were Israelites They are the foundations and the twelve tribes are the walls and the gates.

Sure looks like the Church was PHYSICAL Israel to me.

BTW, the kingdom promises to Israel were NOT unconditional as you say.

Quote
6"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will REPENT of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Jeremiah 18:6-10

God told Israel that He is the Potter who can do with them anything He wants. He said that when He plants a kingdom and it does not obey Him that He would REPENT of the good He promised them.

There is not one scintilla of evidence in the scripture that the kingdom promises to Israel were "unconditional." Jesus said that the kingdom would be taken away from them and given to a nation that would bear the fruit of it. That nation was the disciples who were ISRAELITES!

God is done with the nation of Israel except for the remnant that was chosen by grace in Paul's day (rom. 11:5). After that God made their house "DESOLATE."

thinker



Offline gospel

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #24 on: Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 12:07:50 »
I didn't say the Abrahamic covenant was obsolete.  But the Abrahamic covenant included the Gentile from the outset.  That is what Paul declares in the passages that I posted.

I simply reject, on the basis of biblical confirmation, the two gospel concept.  There is neither Jew nor Greek....

Jimmy is clearly right on this and very much so

I would add my own simplistic view to the meaning of chosen...which I come to see, through the scriptures the Jews were chosen as the Oracle people of God....

.... in other words they were chosen as the people though whom God chose to reveal Himself to the World

Piggy backing on Jimmy

That means God has always intended to reveal Himself to ALL people as pointed out in the covenant He made with Abraham

They were chosen as a people through whom God would and has shown His mighty power

New Living Translation (©2007)

For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us

Ephesians 2:14


The NLT brings out the clarity of the verse whereas the profound impact of it is somewhat lost in the KJ


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Ephesians 2:14
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 12:37:51 by gospel »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #25 on: Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 13:36:23 »
I also agree with Jimmy and Gospel on that amen brothers

Offline gospel

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #26 on: Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 14:21:57 »
I also agree with Jimmy and Gospel on that amen brothers


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Offline beloved57

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #27 on: Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 08:12:43 »
The Ethnic Jews in and of themselves, have never been God's Chosen People ! In fact, none of Abraham's offspring according to the flesh alone, are the Childrenn of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not one Promise of God was ever made to fleshly Israel, not one. All the promises were made to Abraham as a Man of Faith !

And all the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ, Abraham's Spiritual Seed and His Body ! Gal 3:16,29

 16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29


 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So replacement theology is when the pure ethnic jews claim to be God's People apart from Faith in Christ !

Offline beloved57

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Who really is a Jew in God's Eyes ?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 03:14:52 »
Rom 2:28-29

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Forget about what man says What does God's word say about this issue ? Well according to the word of Truth, a Jew is one inwardly !

It is when a man or woman has partaken of a inward work of the Holy Spirit. A Jew is that hidden person of the heart Peter points to in 1Pet 3:4

 4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

That which is born again of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

Rom 7:22 points to a Jew Rom 7:22

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

That inward part of a redeemed born again Person that delights in the Law of God, which only a born again does ! Being a Jew is that one who desires Truth in the inward parts like David acknowledges Ps 51:6

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

God in answering Job stated Job 38:36

36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? Note: on given understanding See 1 Jn 5:19

A Jew is one whom God hath put wisdom in the inward parts, understanding to the mind.

Job earlier says that Understanding is Job 28:28

28And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

It is the Fear of the Lord, and to depart from evil is understanding ! And Christ gives Understanding 1 Jn 5:19, so it is He that causes one to depart from Evil !

A Jew is any Person, who by an inward work  of Grace and the Spirit of God, Fears God ! The virtuous woman in  Prov 31 was a Jew Prov 31:30


 30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. See Rom 2:29

Cornelius the gentile and his household were Jews Acts 10:2,35

 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The Gospel is sent as a word of Salvation to all whom Fear God Acts 13:26

26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

You see, A Genuine Fear of God is what God defines as a Jew, not a ethnic race of flesh. Yes there is a people like that, but they are not the Jews that God recognizes as His People !

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #29 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 06:44:07 »
You need to re-read Rom 11 and NOT spiritualize your understanding of it. Take the plain meaning of the text.

It is a stretch and reading spiritualizing into the texts above that could lead someone to think that the promises to Abraham and his decendants was to anything other than physical decendants regardless of "faith."   That is a replacement theology idea that has been used to re-intrepret the promises in the OT to physical Israel.

Romans 2 is talking about those who are still in the Rom 11 cultivated olive tree.

As to Cornelius, he was indeed a Gentile - a "god fearer." They are written about in the Talmud, which explains who they were, why they did what they did and their status in the synagogues.

If you learn the proper history of the church and synagogue, including the existance of God Fearers, the particular language that Paul uses will make more sense and not be subjected to the speculative intrepretation evidenced in the last few posts.

Offline beloved57

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #30 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 11:48:57 »
dave

Quote
You need to re-read Rom 11 and NOT spiritualize your understanding of it.

I have read it, studied it, it is you who appears to lack understanding of it. And Spiritualize, I spiritualize whatever Paul does. He knows more about the scripture than you and better qualified to determine what is spiritualized than you..

Quote
As to Cornelius, he was indeed a Gentile - a "god fearer."


That's right, of which no man by nature is according to scripture Rom 3:18

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Only those given a New Heart Fear God Jer 32:39-49

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Now, ethnic jews who are not born again, they have no relationship with God whatsoever Rom 9:8


 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It does not matter what the talmud says either..
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 11:58:41 by beloved57 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Replacement theology
« Reply #31 on: Thu Dec 08, 2011 - 08:21:32 »
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It does not matter what the talmud says either..
As to doctrine - I agree. But as to understanding what was being referenced in the language of the NT authors - it helps a LOT.

What exactly do you know abou the group of gentiles refered to as "God fearers?"