Author Topic: Let us create man i our image, after our likeness...... Gen 1:26, re-visited.  (Read 1323 times)

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Offline Alan

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John tells us that in the resurrection "we will be like Him." 1 John 3:2


We won't be like him if we're 90 and hunched over, or 1 and not able to walk on our own.

Offline 4WD

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Or three years old and died in a terrible auto accident.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Lots of speculation in here.

I am guessing that we are all confused because of the hireling pulpiteers and the edifices.  Everything boils down to edifices.

Offline Rella

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You think He still is eating fish?

He will.

For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Truly I tell you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

What exactly do you think a glorified body is?

Philippians 3:21 Who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44  So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.

Philippians 3:20-21  But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

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Offline 4WD

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What exactly do you think a glorified body is?
To be perfectly honest, I really do not know what a glorified body is.  In His prayer, given us in John 17, Jesus prayed, "I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Now I am convinced that before the world existed, there was no physical anything. Certainly, given that God is spiritual, not physical, I believe that Jesus as the second person of the Trinity was also spiritual not physical.  So I believe the glory that He had with God before the world existed was as a spiritual being.  I believe that the body of Jesus raised from the tomb was the exact same body that was placed into the tomb.  I further believe that in His ascension His physical body ceased to exist and He returned, was transformed, to His spiritual Self as He was before His incarnation.  I believe that is His glorified body, whatever it is.

If our bodies are transformed to be like His glorious body, I really hope that mine is not anything like the one I have now. I will take whatever God decides is a glorious body, of course. 

I agree with the one here who said, of the body, soul and spirit of man, that I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit. (I am fairly certain that was Jarrod.) Here soul is used as it is in Genesis 1, i.e., a living being.  Anyway, I trust that in eternity, I will be a soul, a living being, and I will have a spirit, and the body will have returned to dust as God said it would.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 13:20:49 by 4WD »

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But do YOU have any idea why man was created, looking as he does, upright like an ape... but without hair for protection from the elements...
I am rarely without ANY ideas. ;)

Scientifically, being relatively hairless allows us to travel further distances without overheating, and being bipedal lets us use our hands and walk at the same time.  From a design perspective, these are features you would give to something that you expect to be nomadic/itinerant.  Biblically, early Genesis strongly supports the idea that man was designed to be nomadic, and mostly condemns the practice of setting down stationary cities and taking up farming full-time (see Cain v. Abel).

Why did He create man to look like this when it is obvious that given the ability other animals had the ability to talk?

DO NOT go there with the statement that those things were allegories, parables, or never happened.......
Where do you get the idea that other animals spoke?  Most of them don't have all the physical parts to do so (lips, tongues, larynx), and the ones that do, for the most part don't have the intelligence for much more than mimicry.

It isn't clear at all that any animals spoke.  The opposite is true - it is clear that they never have!

This idea that God made man only in his spiritual image... which is what is suggested time and again... simply is too weird for words.
90% of people can't even define the word spiritual, and the ones who can don't agree on its definition.  So... what are they really saying?

Are they saying that man is like God because we have logic, intellect, self-awareness... sentience?  If so, they're probably right.  That's the difference between man and animals that is immediately noticeable.

For that means that the spirituality of God also incorporates all the evil and truly bad men since the author wrote "In the beginning." OR is proof that we are simply the Pawns in the Hand of God who created us to .... well, that is for another day.
Well, what do you mean by spiritual?  Based on these couple sentences, not the same thing as me.

I will say this... there is no judgment, no good or evil, without intelligence and logic.  Perhaps that comes close to answering your question?

Jarrod

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Lots of speculation in here.

I am guessing that we are all confused because of the hireling pulpiteers...
This is probably true...

...and the edifices.  Everything boils down to edifices.
...in spite of the sarcasm.

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That violates Hebrews 13:8  where it says HE was and is the same past present and future.  He did not change from spiritual to physical and back to spiritual.  He is the SAME.
The way you use these words makes my head hurt.

For the Greeks, spiritual wouldn't preclude having a body.  If you have a spiritual body, you still have a body.  It isn't a non-body.

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Offline Reformer

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MORE INFO ON MAN’S SPIRIT & HIS GLORIFIED BODY:

    “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it [heaven] we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform [remodel] our lowly body to be like His glorious body...” [Phil. 3:20-21].
 
    A glorified, transformed body is one that is no longer subject to aging, illnesses, diseases, deterioration, or death. This is the kind of body our Lord currently has. At His death, His physical body underwent a transformation, a glorification following His physical demise [see John 7:39 & Phil. 3:21]. And it was this living form that appeared to His disciples on the mountain, and the living forms of Moses and Elijah—all glorious forms. [Note: “glorify” & “glorified,” according to the Greek, have a wide application.]
 
    Moses and Elijah, two servants among the greatest, now possess glorified, transformed bodies. And those bodies are very much alive somewhere in God’s domain, for they appeared with Jesus centuries after they departed this planet. They are not sleeping. Nor was Samuel sleeping when God allowed a medium to “call him up” to give King Saul a message of death [1 Sam., chapter 28]. He was very much alive.
 
    My spirit and your spirit, the real you and me, will be clothed with some form of glorified body at death to await the resurrection, at which time we will receive our eternal body. “But God gives it a body as He has chosen...It is sown [buried] a natural [physical] body; it is raised a spiritual body” [1 Cor. 15:35-54]. Amen and glory to our Awesome Creator!

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« Last Edit: Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 15:44:38 by Reformer »

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Offline 4WD

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A glorified, transformed body is one that is no longer subject to aging, illnesses, diseases, deterioration, or death. This is the kind of body our Lord currently has. At His death, His physical body underwent a transformation, a glorification following His physical demise [see John 7:39 & Phil. 3:21]. And it was this living form that appeared to His disciples on the mountain, and the living forms of Moses and Elijah—all glorious forms. [Note: “glorify” & “glorified,” according to the Greek, have a wide application.]
John 7:39  Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Given that the Spirit was not given until after Jesus ascended into heaven to be at God's right hand, I would reject any transformation or glorification at His death and place it at His ascension.  And that particularly given His prayer in John 17:5 that would place His glorification at His return to the Father's side.

I find it interesting and not happenstance that when speaking of Jesus "resurrection" from the dead and before His ascension the Greek word ἔγερσις [egersis] is used.  This is from the Greek word ἐγείρω [egeirō] which is the same word used to describe the raising of Lazarus from the dead (John 12:1).  In all other instances when speaking of the resurrection at the end of the age, with Jesus' return, the Greek word for resurrection is ἀνάστασις [anastasis]. I believe that Jesus' rising from the dead is not the resurrection that is referred to when speaking of the "resurrection" in passages such as Matthew 22:28-31, Mark 12:23, Luke 14:14, John 11:24-25, Acts 2:31;4:2;4:33;17:18, etc.  Instead, I believe the resurrection being spoken of in those and all other such passages relates not to His being raised from the dead, but rather to His being ascended to Heaven.

I would point out that in passages such as Romans 6:1-14, it speaks of Jesus being raised from the dead (vv. 4&9) it is the Greek word ἐγείρω [egeirō] that is used. But when it speaks of His resurrection in verse 5 it is not ἔγερσις [egersis]; rather it is ἀνάστασις [anastasis].

All of this suggests to me that there is the raising of Jesus from the dead and there is Jesus' resurrection and they do not speak to the same event.  That tells me that the transformation, the glorification following His physical death and being raised from the dead did not occur until His ascension.

But maybe that is just me.

Offline Rella

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I am responding, IN BLUE, to your reply to my comment within the quote below


Quote
Quote from: Rella on Today at 06:42:05
But do YOU have any idea why man was created, looking as he does, upright like an ape... but without hair for protection from the elements...

I am rarely without ANY ideas. ;)

Scientifically, being relatively hairless allows us to travel further distances without overheating, and being bipedal lets us use our hands and walk at the same time.  From a design perspective, these are features you would give to something that you expect to be nomadic/itinerant.  Biblically, early Genesis strongly supports the idea that man was designed to be nomadic, and mostly condemns the practice of setting down stationary cities and taking up farming full-time (see Cain v. Abel).

Alright. That makes a certain amount of sense, unless those nomads were wandering well into the frigid climates of the earth, where they would have need to be encumbered with clothing... most likely animal skins to avoid not only freezing but also frost bite. Such would make easy movement not so easy. (Another topic for another days is why through out the nomadic types of people... say the indigenous from the Americas, or Europe or Africa... et al.

The link has a great list of Nomadic people. I admit to being clueless as to where original man fits in among the names. Though my Neanderthal ancestors are among the listed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nomadic_peoples

It also does not touch on the fact that .... ( You do not believe in the literal account of Adam and Eve right?)  that the author told us Adam and Eve were given the garden for their permanent home and had no need to wander about until they broke the rules and were kicked out. So they were not created to be nomads... initially.


Quote
  Quote from: Rella on Today at 06:42:05
Why did He create man to look like this when it is obvious that given the ability other animals had the ability to talk?

DO NOT go there with the statement that those things were allegories, parables, or never happened.......
Where do you get the idea that other animals spoke?  Most of them don't have all the physical parts to do so (lips, tongues, larynx), and the ones that do, for the most part don't have the intelligence for much more than mimicry.

It isn't clear at all that any animals spoke.  The opposite is true - it is clear that they never have!

Poppycock and peanuts. You either simply do not believe your bible, for Numbers 22:18 says
28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

Are you saying that the author lied about God?

Then Genesis 3: 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Are you saying that a man went down to the party store and rented a snake costume to wear to entice Eve?  ::whistle:: The author further tells us that God....14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: So all indications are that a serpent, who one time move upright had the ability to talk or else this author also said God lied.

TRUE STORY... About the animal kingdom.

When I was in grade school I had a baby sitter who had family across the street from us. Mrs Bowl was her name.
Well, when the family would go away, Mrs Bowl and her  husband would stay in that house to watch the parrot that lived there.

Now I am certain you with your scientific mind will say a parrot mimics and does not think.  HA!

This one stay, Mrs. Bowl had made breakfast and called her husband to eat. As was the habit, the parrot also ate breakfast at the same kitchen table sitting on the back of the chair, with the food in it's bowl on the table.  And once they were well into eating... (it is appropriate to know that this bird always called everyone by their first name... i.e. Mr. Bowl's name was Alex) 

Anyway , they were well into breakfast not talking when all of a sudden, out of the birds mouth came "Good breakfast Mrs. Bowl.

OK you say he was just mimicking what he had heard at some point.....

Then explain this one.

The owners were paid a house call by their minister and had a very nice visit. When he ( the minister ) got up to leave and was approaching the door he turned and asked the Lanes (The owners of the parrot) if they could pray . Yes, yes came the answer so they all were standing there with their heads bowed and the minister speaking.

The parrot who was around all of a sudden piped up wit "What the hell is going on here."!

Make no mistake.....Those that do speak will. Those that God has a purpose of speaking will also. And... yes. Anyone with any animals that they are close with will tell you they also have feelings of happiness and sadness and many do cry.


Quote
Quote from: Rella on Today at 06:42:05
This idea that God made man only in his spiritual image... which is what is suggested time and again... simply is too weird for words.

90% of people can't even define the word spiritual, and the ones who can don't agree on its definition.  So... what are they really saying?

That is because 90% of the people cannot comprehend that man also is a triune being the same as God.

To them, if you talk spirit or spiritual is is all about if they do or dont believe in "things that go bump in the night".

It keeps their lives simple and uncomplicated.


Are they saying that man is like God because we have logic, intellect, self-awareness... sentience?  If so, they're probably right.  That's the difference between man and animals that is immediately noticeable.

I am sure that would be a scientific definition.

 
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Today at 06:42:05
For that means that the spirituality of God also incorporates all the evil and truly bad men since the author wrote "In the beginning." OR is proof that we are simply the Pawns in the Hand of God who created us to .... well, that is for another day.

Well, what do you mean by spiritual?  Based on these couple sentences, not the same thing as me.

Spiritual... simply stated to me is regarding humans would be relating to  the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things like the human body.

We know that God is Spirit. ( As we are spirits who have a soul and live in a body) (Some reverse the soul and spirit idea and the bible is not clear as it refers to the fact that the spirit, as well as the soul goes back to God the moment we die.

I say spirit first because God wants to “sanctify” or transform our spirit, soul, and body into the image of Christ (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18). But this transformation starts with our “spirit,” not our soul or body. Our spirit is the inner most part of us.

When physical death occurs, the spirit and soul are separated from the physical body. According to the Old Testament the spirit of believers returns to the Lord at death. “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The physical body is buried in the ground (“the dust will return to the earth”), but the spirit of the believer “returns to God who gave it.” When Rachel died, the Bible says, “And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni” (Genesis 35:18). Based on other verses in the Bible, the departing of Rachel’s soul implies her soul (and spirit) departed to go be with the Lord in Abraham’s bosom or Paradise (Luke 16:22; 23:43).

 ::frown:: ::frown:: ::frown:: ::frown:: OK I'll stop as this also is for another day.

 I know this is not explanation. I have never stopped to consider this fact, just that like faith.... I believe and accept... but cannot explain.




I will say this...  there is no judgment, no good or evil, without intelligence and logic.  Perhaps that comes close to answering your question?

Jarrod


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It also does not touch on the fact that .... ( You do not believe in the literal account of Adam and Eve right?)  that the author told us Adam and Eve were given the garden for their permanent home and had no need to wander about until they broke the rules and were kicked out. So they were not created to be nomads... initially.
I think you are underestimating the size of the "garden."  Whether you believe the story is literal or not, it's set in a real place... the Bible tells us that Gan Eden was the forest of Lebanon, which was hundreds (thousands?) of square miles.  It's kind of tough to tell nowadays, since the majority of the forest was removed thousands of years ago.

Poppycock and peanuts. You either simply do not believe your bible, for Numbers 22:18 says
28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

Are you saying that the author lied about God?

Then Genesis 3: 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Are you saying that a man went down to the party store and rented a snake costume to wear to entice Eve?  ::whistle:: The author further tells us that God....14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: So all indications are that a serpent, who one time move upright had the ability to talk or else this author also said God lied.
The story of Balaam's donkey speaking is presented as something miraculous.  Donkeys do not normally speak (and I can't believe I have to type this sentence out).

The serpent of early Genesis is an apocalyptic symbol; not a literal animal.  Hebrew literature uses animals as symbols on a regular basis, actually.  This can be seen on full display in Daniel and Revelation, as well as some of the intertestamental books.

TRUE STORY... About the animal kingdom.

When I was in grade school I had a baby sitter who had family across the street from us. Mrs Bowl was her name.
Well, when the family would go away, Mrs Bowl and her  husband would stay in that house to watch the parrot that lived there.

Now I am certain you with your scientific mind will say a parrot mimics and does not think.  HA!

This one stay, Mrs. Bowl had made breakfast and called her husband to eat. As was the habit, the parrot also ate breakfast at the same kitchen table sitting on the back of the chair, with the food in it's bowl on the table.  And once they were well into eating... (it is appropriate to know that this bird always called everyone by their first name... i.e. Mr. Bowl's name was Alex) 

Anyway , they were well into breakfast not talking when all of a sudden, out of the birds mouth came "Good breakfast Mrs. Bowl.

OK you say he was just mimicking what he had heard at some point.....

Then explain this one.

The owners were paid a house call by their minister and had a very nice visit. When he ( the minister ) got up to leave and was approaching the door he turned and asked the Lanes (The owners of the parrot) if they could pray . Yes, yes came the answer so they all were standing there with their heads bowed and the minister speaking.

The parrot who was around all of a sudden piped up wit "What the hell is going on here."!

Make no mistake.....Those that do speak will. Those that God has a purpose of speaking will also. And... yes. Anyone with any animals that they are close with will tell you they also have feelings of happiness and sadness and many do cry.
Well, parrots DO speak.  They are quite smart for animals and have the required parts to make speech.  While most of it is mimicry, they can figure out basic cause-and-effect things, like getting a cracker when they say cracker.  But you can't find one that can hold a conversation.  Feels like I'm doing a lot of pointing-out-the-obvious, here.

Most animals don't speak.

Quote
Are they saying that man is like God because we have logic, intellect, self-awareness... sentience?  If so, they're probably right.  That's the difference between man and animals that is immediately noticeable.
I am sure that would be a scientific definition.
Nope.  People have understood this since before there was such a thing as science.  Also, modern science rejects the idea, instead placing man among the animals.

Although, why am I supplying actual answers in reply to something that was only ever intended as a snide comment?  Socially clueless, I am.


Spiritual... simply stated to me is regarding humans would be relating to the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things like the human body.
At the risk of repeating myself, it's not very useful to define things in terms of what they are NOT.  Can we go a step further?

In your Bible, spiritual is the word pneumatikos.  This word means 'something that is moved by the wind.'

Paul contrasts spiritual with natural or physical, depending on which translation you're using.  This word is psychikos.  It means 'something that is moved by its breath,' which at first glance seems very similar.

What's the difference?  (yes, I'm begging a question)

In ancient philosophy, a being that is breath-powered is moved according to its natural urges.  It exists to eat and drink, to copulate and pursue everything that FEELS good, and to avoid everything that FEELS bad.

Conversely, a being that is wind-powered is moved according to its own purpose and plan.  It pursues that which it deems to be profitable, even when it is uncomfortable in the short term.

While we're at it, the Greek psyche is translated into Latin as anima, which you might recognize as the root word of animal.  It's also sometimes translated into English as soul.

We know that God is Spirit. ( As we are spirits who have a soul and live in a body) (Some reverse the soul and spirit idea and the bible is not clear as it refers to the fact that the spirit, as well as the soul goes back to God the moment we die.

I say spirit first because God wants to “sanctify” or transform our spirit, soul, and body into the image of Christ (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18). But this transformation starts with our “spirit,” not our soul or body. Our spirit is the inner most part of us.

When physical death occurs, the spirit and soul are separated from the physical body. According to the Old Testament the spirit of believers returns to the Lord at death. “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The physical body is buried in the ground (“the dust will return to the earth”), but the spirit of the believer “returns to God who gave it.” When Rachel died, the Bible says, “And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni” (Genesis 35:18). Based on other verses in the Bible, the departing of Rachel’s soul implies her soul (and spirit) departed to go be with the Lord in Abraham’s bosom or Paradise (Luke 16:22; 23:43).
If you're a person, you do indeed have a body, spirit, and soul.  But if you're an animal, you only have a body and a soul.

If you're a Christian, then your goal (according to Scripture and not me), should be to take captive the impulses of your anima, and put your spirit in the driver's seat.  No wait, that needs a revision... put The Spirit in the driver's seat.  We may have the wind inside us, but it doesn't come from ourselves.

Jarrod

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T W O  Q U E S T I O N S

1] When our loved ones depart, do they sleep or are they conscious?
2] Does the nucleus of a believer—his spirit—live on after physical death?

 
    We’ll start with Stephen who was stoned to death by the enemies of Jesus. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep” [Acts 7:59-60].

     There are two entities in this passage I’d like you to notice. Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit. The second is that he “fell asleep.” The phrase “fell asleep” was a common expression among the Jewish people to signify physical death, especially the death of a righteous man.

    However, this “sleep” is not attributable to the spirit, but to the body, because Stephen committed his spirit to the Lord while his body was being stoned by a wicked mob of sectarian religionists. The term “fell asleep” is often used in the new covenant scriptures while “gathered to his people” was the dictum used by the Hebrew writers of the Old Scriptures. Therefore, “receive my spirit” and “gathered to his people“ are comparable utterings, which relate to the same theme.

    “Gathered to his people” is a Hebrew expression while “receive my spirit” is a Greek phrase. “Fell asleep” alludes to one’s physical cessation, as in the case of Steven. But “receive my spirit” refers to the essence or nucleus of a person departing his physical body for another abode. When a holy man ceases to live, his spirit—the real or actual person—becomes an inhabitant of another domain and connects “with the spirits of just men made perfect.”

    Another important factor is that “gathered to his people” and “fell asleep” are always used in conjunction with believers, never with unbelievers. Not one example have I found. [Correct me if you find one.]

    My point is that there is another “component” of a believer that separates from his body at the point of biological death and becomes an inhabitant or resident of a celestial domain—namely, his spirit. There is a beauty beyond the believer’s physical senses—an inner beauty, his spirit.

    God instructed Moses to climb Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, and view the Land of Canaan, “for there on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people.” By way of paraphrasing, we might construct the implication in this fashion, “For on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people who have gone on before you.” It is certain that Moses’ bones were not “gathered to his people,” for no one knew—or knows—where God buried him.

    I understand “gathered to your people” to mean that Moses’ spirit, the real Moses, immediately following his biological demise, would be assembling in a celestial environment with all of the old saints whose earthly existence had already ended.

    Then will there be a resurrection of our physical selves? Of course! But let me explain. On that occasion, our spirit will be reunited with our transformed body. Paul wrote, “The Lord Jesus Christ will transform our lowly [physical] body to be like His glorious body” [Phil. 3:20]. Our fleshly bodies will be changed. Paul noted in another place, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] kingdom of God” [I Cor. 15:50].

     Some day, after this life’s tears and joys “have come home to roost,” you and I will be called upon to breathe our last—hopefully “at a good old age.” Will we “be gathered to our people,” as were Moses and others? May the Lord sharpen and prepare us for that glorious event, as we seek and accept His grace.
« Last Edit: Sat Dec 03, 2022 - 20:09:32 by Reformer »

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An excellent post. 

+1

I do like the biblical expression "gathered to our people".  It tells me that I will meet and be with my wife again, and my mother, father, sister along with my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, plus all the other fine Christian people that I have known.  It says that I will for the first time meet and be with those many faithful believers in God, like Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, Paul and the rest of the Apostles and the "thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven (NIV Heb 12:22,23)".  And then , of course, I will have "come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant (NIV Heb 12:23,24)
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 04, 2022 - 04:56:36 by 4WD »

Offline Reformer

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4WD:

Thank you, brother.

Buff

Offline Alan

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I'll 2nd that, good post Buff.


The very idea that we will resume our physical bodies makes little sense.                                                             

Offline Reformer

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Alan:

Thank you, brother. Appreciate your attention.

Buff

Offline RB

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Reformer, it was a good post~a thought for you to consider: "When we die, in what sense are we cloth upon with our house/tabernacle which is IN HEAVEN?"
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2nd Corinthians 4:16-5:8~"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."
My question (I'm not 100% sure) at WHAT POINT and in what SENSE do we get to begin to enjoy our house FROM HEAVEN~I know the full realization will not be known until the resurrection of our earthy house at the last day, yet Paul seem to be saying if this earthly house be dissolved we HAVE A HOUSE FROM HEAVEN...Moses and Elijah both appeared with Christ at the mount of transfiguration in a BODY~so, in one sense, they were enjoying a house before the bodily resurrection, which Paul seem to be saying in 2nd Corinthians 4:16-5:8.  YET, if read carefully 2nd Corinthians 4 we read these words:
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2nd Corinthians 4:14,15~Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
Which tells us the resurrection of our bodies is when we shall enjoy the full benefit of our house which is from heaven, yet is some degree we shall have it when we leave our earthly house in which we now live.

ANY THOUGHTS FROM ANYONE ONE?......."For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 06, 2022 - 04:13:15 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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 I am not sure what you are looking for here, but I believe that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 speaks to the intermediate state between physical death and the resurrection.  There are available out there several different views about such a state.  For me, most are rather confusing.  Clearly, that passage, and others as well, indicate that we will be conscious and alert in the intermediate state; that we will be aware of being with Jesus in the intermediate state. 

A main issue Paul seems to be addressing here is an anxiety about death that leads some to desire to continue in this present earthly existence as long as possible. To make the prospect of death less threatening, Paul makes two main points. First, in verses 1-5, he assures us as Christians that even though our earthly body must die, it will surely be replaced by an eternal, heavenly body. He makes this point by combining the figures of living in a house or tent and wearing clothes.

At present we are clothed with an inferior kind of house or dwelling, but after death we shall be clothed with one that is far better. Second, in verses 6-8, Paul eases our fear of death by assuring us that the circumstances we shall enter then are far better than the ones that prevail while we exist in our present bodies. Specifically, “while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.” Speaking for himself Paul declares that he would much prefer “to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” This is the same sentiment as Philippians 1:21-23. Here as there, he suggests that in the intermediate state we shall be very much aware of our condition and our surroundings.

All this, it seems to me, is before the resurrection at which time we will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ (v.10). 

Offline DaveW

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I am not sure what you are looking for here, but I believe that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 speaks to the intermediate state between physical death and the resurrection.  There are available out there several different views about such a state.  For me, most are rather confusing.  Clearly, that passage, and others as well, indicate that we will be conscious and alert in the intermediate state; that we will be aware of being with Jesus in the intermediate state. 
Confusing because you are dealing with 2 different time lines, if that is even the proper term for eternity. 

I absolutely do not believe they are one and the same; and also do not believe there is any way of correlating one to the other. 

So it is likely that there is no "... intermediate state between physical death and the resurrection."  You go from one right to the other.

Offline 4WD

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I absolutely do not believe they are one and the same; and also do not believe there is any way of correlating one to the other. 
You lost me.  What are the "they" that you do not believe are one and the same?

Offline DaveW

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You lost me.  What are the "they" that you do not believe are one and the same?
The timeline here on earth and the timeline (if you can call it that) in eternity.

Offline 4WD

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I don't believe there is a timeline in eternity.  Time after all is a physical quantity.  The timeline however does exist in this universe and whatever is on the other side is somewhat limited by it. How or to what extent, I am not sure. 

For what it is worth, the timeline here is limited by the natural law dealing with this physical universe put in place by God at creation. So far as we know there are no such natural law in the spiritual realm.

Offline DaveW

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I don't believe there is a timeline in eternity.  Time after all is a physical quantity.  The timeline however does exist in this universe and whatever is on the other side is somewhat limited by it. How or to what extent, I am not sure. 

For what it is worth, the timeline here is limited by the natural law dealing with this physical universe put in place by God at creation. So far as we know there are no such natural law in the spiritual realm.
Revelation 8:1
When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


Clearly there is some kind of chronology or time line in eternity.

Offline 4WD

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Revelation 8:1
When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


Clearly there is some kind of chronology or time line in eternity.

I guess that means that clearly there are some kinds of lambs and seals in heaven also.