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Robert Pate

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Living by the Bible
« on: April 29, 2008, 08:39:37 AM »
Living by the Bible

By Robert Brinsmead

Paul's opponents in Galatia urged a religion of Law upon its converts.  Their appeal was to the Jewish Torah or Law, which embraced the entire Old Testament scripture.  The religion of Law was which they urged was therefore a religion of scripture.

Paul's opponents of course, did not urge this religion of Law or scripture as a means of earning salvation.  In view of having heard the gospel about Christ life, death and resurrection, their question was rather, How then should we now live?  The answer of these Judaizing opponents was that believers must live in obedience to the Torah - the Jewish scripture - as the fruit, the evidence and validation of being true believers.  So the Judaizers were really saying, we must live strictly by what the Bible says.

Paul's reply is summarized in Galatians 5:18: "If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law ( Torah- Jewish scripture)." In 2nd Corinthians 3:6 Paul says, "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."  In Romans 7 the apostle also uses another synonym for being under the law - being controlled by the "letter" The Greek word for the letter is gramma and the emphasis is on the written textually of the Torah.

The book of Romans is the most complete exposition given anywhere of the Christian gospel and its ramifications for life.  But there is an astonishing aspect to this book.  Nowhere does Paul tell us how to study the Bible and how urgent it is to live by the Bible.  In fact, such instruction is nowhere to be found in the great body of Pauline literature.  Paul did not live by the written letter of the law (scripture). 

His religion was not textually dominated and controlled. In his attacks in Galatians and Corinthians he makes it clear that this manner of using the Bible kills rather than brings life.  It imprisons rather than frees.  Living by the letter incites one to do evil and stimulates a person to do exactly what it forbids (Romans 7) Used in this way, the law, scripture - stirs up all kinds of evil desires. Indeed Paul uses the analogy of the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  "Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death" (Romans 7:11).  Such use of the Bible really makes people hypocrites.

Jesus knowledge of God and his relation to him was not controlled by scripture.  Further more, Jesus did not advocate that his disciples should have a religion rigidly controlled by scriptural text and by writing and studying what was written.  Jesus the greatest of all teachers, never wrote anything except in the sand, and that was soon blown away.  Furthermore, he never urged his apostles to write anything.

In the first-century church there were broad divisions between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, and there were sharp differences between them in the way they viewed and answered many questions.  In the light of Paul's universal gospel, however those who are led by the Spirit will not use the Bible in a Judaistic way to create boundries.  Rather, they will seek to transcend human division and to embrace all who have accepted one Lord.   

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Living by the Bible
« on: April 29, 2008, 08:39:37 AM »

da525382

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2008, 08:47:40 AM »
This writer does not absolutely trash scripture as you do Robert.  Everyone here knows this point, no one here that I know of quotes scripture as law....it is a matter of perspective, what our perspective is in our faith....our faith is not in our obedience to scriptures out of purely a perspective that we bow down and worship scripture itself in the place of God Almighty.  Your theologic construct is reckless, Robert.  You have been shown time and time again that Paul did not trash scripture, he told Timothy to use it for it's appropriate purpose, for teaching and reproof.  Christ Himself opened the eyes of those to see how it prophesied of Him, and He does so to us still today.  You spin and toil.

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2008, 08:47:40 AM »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2008, 08:53:59 AM »
What a misuse of the letter of Galatians to attack the Bible.

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2008, 08:53:59 AM »

Robert Pate

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2008, 10:25:55 AM »
This writer does not absolutely trash scripture as you do Robert.  Everyone here knows this point, no one here that I know of quotes scripture as law....it is a matter of perspective, what our perspective is in our faith....our faith is not in our obedience to scriptures out of purely a perspective that we bow down and worship scripture itself in the place of God Almighty.  Your theologic construct is reckless, Robert.  You have been shown time and time again that Paul did not trash scripture, he told Timothy to use it for it's appropriate purpose, for teaching and reproof.  Christ Himself opened the eyes of those to see how it prophesied of Him, and He does so to us still today.  You spin and toil.

da525382

What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.  Where have I trashed scripture?  Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me.  What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

The gospel frees us from the law (scripture) Christ is not only the fulfillment of the law, he is the end of the law and is our righteousness.  Outside of Christ we no not have any acceptable righteousness.  We are needy sinners.  Trying to please God by living by the Bible is a denial of the gospel and will bring you into spiritual bondage.

Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2008, 10:25:55 AM »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 10:32:32 AM »
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

Unless of course you say its not.

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 10:32:32 AM »



Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 10:35:35 AM »
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

2Pe 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures , unto their own destruction."

Sounds like someone I know...

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 10:35:35 AM »

Robert Pate

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2008, 10:51:32 AM »
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

2Pe 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures , unto their own destruction."

Sounds like someone I know...
Charles,

The other scriptures that Peter is refering to here is the scripture that reveals Christ and his gospel.  If you don't understand what Christ has done for you it can lead to your destruction.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »
Robert, it is apparent that you do not consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.  If you did, you would not be making the statements about the Bible that you continually seem to do.

da525382

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »
Quotes below are from Robert:

Quote
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

What you don't seem to understand is that things only become law to those who put themselves under it.  Just because it exists as scripture, even if it tells you to do something like love your neighbor as yourself, your perception of it as freedom or law is your own, your perception of it as descriptive of a child of God or as a victimization of him is entirely your own.  Your view of "non-law" scripture is selective for you, you determine it, and then you turn around and use it and the rest of scripture to victimize everyone else.  You need therapy.

Quote
Where have I trashed scripture?

Just name it.  You have demeaned it, trashed it, dismissed it and placed it in antithesis to the very gospel it proclaims.  Please, give us all a break here, Robert.  Don't be coy.

Quote
Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me

Baloney.  Your claim to invalidation is because you do not give the least bit of credence to the scriptures upon which those claims are made against you by me and everyone else here.  And I mean everyone.

Quote
What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

As far as I am concerned, Robert, this is a pack of lies.  A written instruction to feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the imprisoned is only a law when you make it one and give it subjugating power over your very being.  Those who obey scripture do it out of love and because of love, not out of sin and death, as you insist over and over again here that everyone must be doing.  You would not even understand visiting the poor, feeding the hungry, and on and on if you did not have scripture.  You are one arrogant individual, IMO, Robert, and with that, let me throw in thankless, as well.

Quote
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

Even if he didn't refer to his writings as "scripture" So what?  Are you telling us therefore to trash only the New Testament, or the greater portion of it simply because of that?  He never referred to them as "non-scripture", did he?  He encouraged his readers to do what he said and wrote and follow his example and the example of all the other apostles, didn't he?  Well, but you hold that up as suspect, all of it.  Which books then should we trash? How about 1 John, 2 John, and 3rd John?  You know, keep John's gospel, but eliminate his other epistles which talk about abiding in Him, walking in the light, all those law things that John, in his moment of disconnection from reality, spoke of?  You are something else, sir.
 

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »

Robert Pate

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 03:10:32 PM »
Quotes below are from Robert:

Quote
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

What you don't seem to understand is that things only become law to those who put themselves under it.  Just because it exists as scripture, even if it tells you to do something like love your neighbor as yourself, your perception of it as freedom or law is your own, your perception of it as descriptive of a child of God or as a victimization of him is entirely your own.  Your view of "non-law" scripture is selective for you, you determine it, and then you turn around and use it and the rest of scripture to victimize everyone else.  You need therapy.

Quote
Where have I trashed scripture?

Just name it.  You have demeaned it, trashed it, dismissed it and placed it in antithesis to the very gospel it proclaims.  Please, give us all a break here, Robert.  Don't be coy.

Quote
Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me

Baloney.  Your claim to invalidation is because you do not give the least bit of credence to the scriptures upon which those claims are made against you by me and everyone else here.  And I mean everyone.

Quote
What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

As far as I am concerned, Robert, this is a pack of lies.  A written instruction to feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the imprisoned is only a law when you make it one and give it subjugating power over your very being.  Those who obey scripture do it out of love and because of love, not out of sin and death, as you insist over and over again here that everyone must be doing.  You would not even understand visiting the poor, feeding the hungry, and on and on if you did not have scripture.  You are one arrogant individual, IMO, Robert, and with that, let me throw in thankless, as well.

Quote
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

Even if he didn't refer to his writings as "scripture" So what?  Are you telling us therefore to trash only the New Testament, or the greater portion of it simply because of that?  He never referred to them as "non-scripture", did he?  He encouraged his readers to do what he said and wrote and follow his example and the example of all the other apostles, didn't he?  Well, but you hold that up as suspect, all of it.  Which books then should we trash? How about 1 John, 2 John, and 3rd John?  You know, keep John's gospel, but eliminate his other epistles which talk about abiding in Him, walking in the light, all those law things that John, in his moment of disconnection from reality, spoke of?  You are something else, sir.
 

da525382

If you need written instructions to live the Christian life then you don't have the Spirit of Christ.  What you have is a bad case of Biblcism. You love the law because you think that you are able to obey it.  Paul said, "Do you not hear the law?"  Tell me, are you obeying the scriptures? Are you doing everything that the scripture is telling you to do, or do you kind of pick and chose?  The scripture says to love God with all of your heart mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself.  Are you doing that one?  Your problem is that you don't want to believe that you are a sinner.  Paul said that the law is for the unsaved.  I say that the law is for the religious that do not have the Spirit.


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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 03:10:32 PM »

Offline kensington

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 07:47:03 PM »
So, now you add to the scriptures... Paul said one thing, and now you say another.  Which one should we believe?

You say the word has nothing to do with the Gospel.  Or Jesus.

Then it is evident that you do need to read the word, and heed it.

My favorite scripture.... "And He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called, "The Word of God"... (Revelation 19:13)  If you do not need the WORD, and you reject it, you reject Jesus Christ, who is the word. He is the complete WORD...  all of it.


da525382

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 08:01:48 PM »
Quotes following are from Robert:

Quote
If you need written instructions to live the Christian life then you don't have the Spirit of Christ.

The destruct of your reasoning is that you use written instructions to convince you that you don't need written instructions.  You did not make this conclusion from a non-Biblical source that I can see, nor have you ever quoted a non-Biblical source that tells you what the Spirit of Christ is to begin with and what constitutes having it and evidencing it.  Your reasoning can be portrayed pictorially as follows:    ::pickinguprock::

Quote
What you have is a bad case of Biblcism
What I have is a good case of recognizing the written Word of God as inspired and therefore of value.

Quote
You love the law because you think that you are able to obey it.
I love the law because it testified to my Saviour and lets me know how much I need Him.
You are absolutely on a manic high about telling everyone here that they love the law because they obey it, an understanding everyone here recognizes more than you that they cannot, that He already did.  Yawn.

Quote
Paul said, "Do you not hear the law?

You've got that wrong.  Here's what he said in Galatians:

Quote
Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

No one disputes this except you.  You construct straw men out of every one of us and just bludgeon us to stumps.  He is not saying scripture is a law simply because it is a scripture, to shun it.  He is discussing the correct perspective in which to undertand the law vs faith in the context of our salvation.

Quote
Tell me, are you obeying the scriptures?

No, I read scripture more and more to fill myself more and more with God's word, that I may obey Him more and more, not obey scripture more and more. Scriptures reference my obedience journey, they point me to Him, they give understanding of what obedience evidences.  I am the obedient of God, not the obedient of scripture, yet you corner everyone on this forum into this trap that you have set for them, designating that  they obey scriptures just by reading them, as if they find their salvation in them, when they reveal their salvation in God alone.

Quote
Are you doing everything that the scripture is telling you to do, or do you kind of pick and chose?

Well, are you doing everything the Spirit is telling you to do or do you kind of pick and choose?  Please, Robert, you've got to be kidding.

Quote
The scripture says to love God with all of your heart mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself.  Are you doing that one? 

I'm sorry, but I guess the extrapolation of your argument here is that since you walk by the Spirit, and the rest of us only read this essentially worthless scripture, not knowing  anything about God's Holy Spirit of course, or that we are to walk by His Spirit, that you are the only one that lives perfectly, is that correct?  When you walk by the Spirit every day, have you completely shut out your flesh?  It is you who is the one who truly puts himself under law, Robert, the law of shunning written scripture.

Quote
Your problem is that you don't want to believe that you are a sinner.
Yeah, sure.  That doesn't dignify a response.

Quote
Paul said that the law is for the unsaved.

Paul said Christ crucified is for the unsaved.

Quote
I say that the law is for the religious that do not have the Spirit.

Well, let's see.....the law was certainly for Christ, he kept it perfectly, He indeed had the Spirit.....what a religious hypocrite He was.  You're right, this is something only you say.


Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 08:38:04 PM »
Don,

Your posts are well thought out, eloquent and deserving of more praise than I can offer.

Offline kensington

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2008, 08:49:19 PM »
True Dat! 

da525382

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Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2008, 08:59:23 PM »
Thank you Charles and kensington so very much......