GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Living by the Bible  (Read 58540 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Living by the Bible
« on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:39:37 »
Living by the Bible

By Robert Brinsmead

Paul's opponents in Galatia urged a religion of Law upon its converts.  Their appeal was to the Jewish Torah or Law, which embraced the entire Old Testament scripture.  The religion of Law was which they urged was therefore a religion of scripture.

Paul's opponents of course, did not urge this religion of Law or scripture as a means of earning salvation.  In view of having heard the gospel about Christ life, death and resurrection, their question was rather, How then should we now live?  The answer of these Judaizing opponents was that believers must live in obedience to the Torah - the Jewish scripture - as the fruit, the evidence and validation of being true believers.  So the Judaizers were really saying, we must live strictly by what the Bible says.

Paul's reply is summarized in Galatians 5:18: "If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law ( Torah- Jewish scripture)." In 2nd Corinthians 3:6 Paul says, "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."  In Romans 7 the apostle also uses another synonym for being under the law - being controlled by the "letter" The Greek word for the letter is gramma and the emphasis is on the written textually of the Torah.

The book of Romans is the most complete exposition given anywhere of the Christian gospel and its ramifications for life.  But there is an astonishing aspect to this book.  Nowhere does Paul tell us how to study the Bible and how urgent it is to live by the Bible.  In fact, such instruction is nowhere to be found in the great body of Pauline literature.  Paul did not live by the written letter of the law (scripture). 

His religion was not textually dominated and controlled. In his attacks in Galatians and Corinthians he makes it clear that this manner of using the Bible kills rather than brings life.  It imprisons rather than frees.  Living by the letter incites one to do evil and stimulates a person to do exactly what it forbids (Romans 7) Used in this way, the law, scripture - stirs up all kinds of evil desires. Indeed Paul uses the analogy of the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  "Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death" (Romans 7:11).  Such use of the Bible really makes people hypocrites.

Jesus knowledge of God and his relation to him was not controlled by scripture.  Further more, Jesus did not advocate that his disciples should have a religion rigidly controlled by scriptural text and by writing and studying what was written.  Jesus the greatest of all teachers, never wrote anything except in the sand, and that was soon blown away.  Furthermore, he never urged his apostles to write anything.

In the first-century church there were broad divisions between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, and there were sharp differences between them in the way they viewed and answered many questions.  In the light of Paul's universal gospel, however those who are led by the Spirit will not use the Bible in a Judaistic way to create boundries.  Rather, they will seek to transcend human division and to embrace all who have accepted one Lord.   

Christian Forums and Message Board

Living by the Bible
« on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:39:37 »

da525382

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #1 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:47:40 »
This writer does not absolutely trash scripture as you do Robert.  Everyone here knows this point, no one here that I know of quotes scripture as law....it is a matter of perspective, what our perspective is in our faith....our faith is not in our obedience to scriptures out of purely a perspective that we bow down and worship scripture itself in the place of God Almighty.  Your theologic construct is reckless, Robert.  You have been shown time and time again that Paul did not trash scripture, he told Timothy to use it for it's appropriate purpose, for teaching and reproof.  Christ Himself opened the eyes of those to see how it prophesied of Him, and He does so to us still today.  You spin and toil.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #1 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:47:40 »

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:53:59 »
What a misuse of the letter of Galatians to attack the Bible.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #2 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 09:53:59 »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:25:55 »
This writer does not absolutely trash scripture as you do Robert.  Everyone here knows this point, no one here that I know of quotes scripture as law....it is a matter of perspective, what our perspective is in our faith....our faith is not in our obedience to scriptures out of purely a perspective that we bow down and worship scripture itself in the place of God Almighty.  Your theologic construct is reckless, Robert.  You have been shown time and time again that Paul did not trash scripture, he told Timothy to use it for it's appropriate purpose, for teaching and reproof.  Christ Himself opened the eyes of those to see how it prophesied of Him, and He does so to us still today.  You spin and toil.

da525382

What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.  Where have I trashed scripture?  Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me.  What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

The gospel frees us from the law (scripture) Christ is not only the fulfillment of the law, he is the end of the law and is our righteousness.  Outside of Christ we no not have any acceptable righteousness.  We are needy sinners.  Trying to please God by living by the Bible is a denial of the gospel and will bring you into spiritual bondage.

Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #3 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:25:55 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:32:32 »
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

Unless of course you say its not.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #4 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:32:32 »



Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:35:35 »
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

2Pe 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures , unto their own destruction."

Sounds like someone I know...

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #5 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:35:35 »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #6 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 11:51:32 »
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

2Pe 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures , unto their own destruction."

Sounds like someone I know...
Charles,

The other scriptures that Peter is refering to here is the scripture that reveals Christ and his gospel.  If you don't understand what Christ has done for you it can lead to your destruction.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #7 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 12:24:55 »
Robert, it is apparent that you do not consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.  If you did, you would not be making the statements about the Bible that you continually seem to do.

da525382

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 14:28:42 »
Quotes below are from Robert:

Quote
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

What you don't seem to understand is that things only become law to those who put themselves under it.  Just because it exists as scripture, even if it tells you to do something like love your neighbor as yourself, your perception of it as freedom or law is your own, your perception of it as descriptive of a child of God or as a victimization of him is entirely your own.  Your view of "non-law" scripture is selective for you, you determine it, and then you turn around and use it and the rest of scripture to victimize everyone else.  You need therapy.

Quote
Where have I trashed scripture?

Just name it.  You have demeaned it, trashed it, dismissed it and placed it in antithesis to the very gospel it proclaims.  Please, give us all a break here, Robert.  Don't be coy.

Quote
Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me

Baloney.  Your claim to invalidation is because you do not give the least bit of credence to the scriptures upon which those claims are made against you by me and everyone else here.  And I mean everyone.

Quote
What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

As far as I am concerned, Robert, this is a pack of lies.  A written instruction to feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the imprisoned is only a law when you make it one and give it subjugating power over your very being.  Those who obey scripture do it out of love and because of love, not out of sin and death, as you insist over and over again here that everyone must be doing.  You would not even understand visiting the poor, feeding the hungry, and on and on if you did not have scripture.  You are one arrogant individual, IMO, Robert, and with that, let me throw in thankless, as well.

Quote
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

Even if he didn't refer to his writings as "scripture" So what?  Are you telling us therefore to trash only the New Testament, or the greater portion of it simply because of that?  He never referred to them as "non-scripture", did he?  He encouraged his readers to do what he said and wrote and follow his example and the example of all the other apostles, didn't he?  Well, but you hold that up as suspect, all of it.  Which books then should we trash? How about 1 John, 2 John, and 3rd John?  You know, keep John's gospel, but eliminate his other epistles which talk about abiding in Him, walking in the light, all those law things that John, in his moment of disconnection from reality, spoke of?  You are something else, sir.
 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #8 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 14:28:42 »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #9 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 16:10:32 »
Quotes below are from Robert:

Quote
What you don't seem to understand is that anything in the Bible that tells you to do something is law.

What you don't seem to understand is that things only become law to those who put themselves under it.  Just because it exists as scripture, even if it tells you to do something like love your neighbor as yourself, your perception of it as freedom or law is your own, your perception of it as descriptive of a child of God or as a victimization of him is entirely your own.  Your view of "non-law" scripture is selective for you, you determine it, and then you turn around and use it and the rest of scripture to victimize everyone else.  You need therapy.

Quote
Where have I trashed scripture?

Just name it.  You have demeaned it, trashed it, dismissed it and placed it in antithesis to the very gospel it proclaims.  Please, give us all a break here, Robert.  Don't be coy.

Quote
Your statement that I have trashed scripture is not valid like a lot of other claims you make against me

Baloney.  Your claim to invalidation is because you do not give the least bit of credence to the scriptures upon which those claims are made against you by me and everyone else here.  And I mean everyone.

Quote
What I have said is that Christians should not live according to written instructions which is law, but should live by the Spirit of Christ.  This is what the Bible says, this is what Paul is saying.  You want to obey scripture why is it you don't want to obey that?

As far as I am concerned, Robert, this is a pack of lies.  A written instruction to feed the poor, visit the sick, visit the imprisoned is only a law when you make it one and give it subjugating power over your very being.  Those who obey scripture do it out of love and because of love, not out of sin and death, as you insist over and over again here that everyone must be doing.  You would not even understand visiting the poor, feeding the hungry, and on and on if you did not have scripture.  You are one arrogant individual, IMO, Robert, and with that, let me throw in thankless, as well.

Quote
Paul never refered to his writings as scripture.  They were letters.  Was paul refering Timothy to Old Testament scripture?  The New Testament Bible had not been written yet.

Even if he didn't refer to his writings as "scripture" So what?  Are you telling us therefore to trash only the New Testament, or the greater portion of it simply because of that?  He never referred to them as "non-scripture", did he?  He encouraged his readers to do what he said and wrote and follow his example and the example of all the other apostles, didn't he?  Well, but you hold that up as suspect, all of it.  Which books then should we trash? How about 1 John, 2 John, and 3rd John?  You know, keep John's gospel, but eliminate his other epistles which talk about abiding in Him, walking in the light, all those law things that John, in his moment of disconnection from reality, spoke of?  You are something else, sir.
 

da525382

If you need written instructions to live the Christian life then you don't have the Spirit of Christ.  What you have is a bad case of Biblcism. You love the law because you think that you are able to obey it.  Paul said, "Do you not hear the law?"  Tell me, are you obeying the scriptures? Are you doing everything that the scripture is telling you to do, or do you kind of pick and chose?  The scripture says to love God with all of your heart mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself.  Are you doing that one?  Your problem is that you don't want to believe that you are a sinner.  Paul said that the law is for the unsaved.  I say that the law is for the religious that do not have the Spirit.


Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #10 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 20:47:03 »
So, now you add to the scriptures... Paul said one thing, and now you say another.  Which one should we believe?

You say the word has nothing to do with the Gospel.  Or Jesus.

Then it is evident that you do need to read the word, and heed it.

My favorite scripture.... "And He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called, "The Word of God"... (Revelation 19:13)  If you do not need the WORD, and you reject it, you reject Jesus Christ, who is the word. He is the complete WORD...  all of it.


da525382

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #11 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 21:01:48 »
Quotes following are from Robert:

Quote
If you need written instructions to live the Christian life then you don't have the Spirit of Christ.

The destruct of your reasoning is that you use written instructions to convince you that you don't need written instructions.  You did not make this conclusion from a non-Biblical source that I can see, nor have you ever quoted a non-Biblical source that tells you what the Spirit of Christ is to begin with and what constitutes having it and evidencing it.  Your reasoning can be portrayed pictorially as follows:    ::pickinguprock::

Quote
What you have is a bad case of Biblcism
What I have is a good case of recognizing the written Word of God as inspired and therefore of value.

Quote
You love the law because you think that you are able to obey it.
I love the law because it testified to my Saviour and lets me know how much I need Him.
You are absolutely on a manic high about telling everyone here that they love the law because they obey it, an understanding everyone here recognizes more than you that they cannot, that He already did.  Yawn.

Quote
Paul said, "Do you not hear the law?

You've got that wrong.  Here's what he said in Galatians:

Quote
Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

No one disputes this except you.  You construct straw men out of every one of us and just bludgeon us to stumps.  He is not saying scripture is a law simply because it is a scripture, to shun it.  He is discussing the correct perspective in which to undertand the law vs faith in the context of our salvation.

Quote
Tell me, are you obeying the scriptures?

No, I read scripture more and more to fill myself more and more with God's word, that I may obey Him more and more, not obey scripture more and more. Scriptures reference my obedience journey, they point me to Him, they give understanding of what obedience evidences.  I am the obedient of God, not the obedient of scripture, yet you corner everyone on this forum into this trap that you have set for them, designating that  they obey scriptures just by reading them, as if they find their salvation in them, when they reveal their salvation in God alone.

Quote
Are you doing everything that the scripture is telling you to do, or do you kind of pick and chose?

Well, are you doing everything the Spirit is telling you to do or do you kind of pick and choose?  Please, Robert, you've got to be kidding.

Quote
The scripture says to love God with all of your heart mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself.  Are you doing that one? 

I'm sorry, but I guess the extrapolation of your argument here is that since you walk by the Spirit, and the rest of us only read this essentially worthless scripture, not knowing  anything about God's Holy Spirit of course, or that we are to walk by His Spirit, that you are the only one that lives perfectly, is that correct?  When you walk by the Spirit every day, have you completely shut out your flesh?  It is you who is the one who truly puts himself under law, Robert, the law of shunning written scripture.

Quote
Your problem is that you don't want to believe that you are a sinner.
Yeah, sure.  That doesn't dignify a response.

Quote
Paul said that the law is for the unsaved.

Paul said Christ crucified is for the unsaved.

Quote
I say that the law is for the religious that do not have the Spirit.

Well, let's see.....the law was certainly for Christ, he kept it perfectly, He indeed had the Spirit.....what a religious hypocrite He was.  You're right, this is something only you say.


Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #12 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 21:38:04 »
Don,

Your posts are well thought out, eloquent and deserving of more praise than I can offer.

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #13 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 21:49:19 »
True Dat! 

da525382

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #14 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 21:59:23 »
Thank you Charles and kensington so very much......

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #15 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 22:18:30 »
So much unbelief.  So much denial.

Everything must be viewed in the light of the gospel. The gospel interprets the whole Bible.

The Bible is a book of information concerning what Christ has done to redeem fallen humanity.  If you don't understand the gospel you won't understand the Bible.  Paul makes it very clear that we are to live by the Spirit and not the letter of the law.

What is the law?  When one reads the commandments and the ordinances it does not take long for one to discover that the law effects every facet of your life.  The Jews came up with over 600 rules to live by.  Every scripture that tells us to do something is law.

It is impossible to obey the scriptures.  If you try to live by the scriptures you will fail.  When you fail, if you do not confess that you have failed, then you become a hypocrite.

The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has come into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.  He is our representative.  He is the new Adam and the new creation.  By his sinless life he has offered everything to God that the law requires.  He is our righteousness.  We don't have any, because we are sinners.  Because he was sinless he was able to atone for our sins.  In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30.  

Because we are still in the flesh of Adam God does not accept our works and our obedience.  God only accepts the work and the obedience of Jesus Christ.  This salvation that God has provided for us in Jesus Christ took place completely outside of us, we had nothing to do with it.  We are justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.

If you are trying to please God by obeying the scriptures you are under the law.

If you think that you have some righteousness that God will accept, you are under the law.

If you think that your works will please God, you are under the law.

If you think that you are saved by what you do, or by what you have become, you are under the law.

To be under the law means that you will be judged by the law, and you are under the condemnation of God.

Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

Offline Dave...

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Manna: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 22:39:44 »

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 22:51:04 »
The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has come into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.  He is our representative.  He is the new Adam and the new creation.  By his sinless life he has offered everything to God that the law requires.  He is our righteousness.  We don't have any, because we are sinners.  Because he was sinless he was able to atone for our sins.  In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30.

How do you know that what you say about the Gospel is true, if you deny that we should need the scriptures to live, to please God... to learn Him and know Him... By what do you testify that what you say is true.

Where do you get your information, if not from "The Word of God"?

And why do you quote scriptures at us, if it is living by the Bible you think is wrong.  Why do you quote the "BIBLE" and tell us that is where we can find the answers for our eternity, and life.  Unless, you read it and believe it, and decide to live by what it says concerning salvation and Jesus Christ... you can't even be saved. 

Some one can tell you, and you will hear it... but what are you hearing them speak? It is the Bible Robert... all truth about Jesus and the saving gospel of Jesus Christ comes from the spoken word of God... The Bible.


Offline Dave...

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Manna: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 23:09:13 »
Colossians 1:10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 23:11:00 »
manna to you Dave.   ::amen!::

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #20 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 23:18:01 »
This is hyper dispensationalism run amok. Theres little or no chance of convincing a man that rejects the witness of Scripture, since if he wont listen to God through the Apostles what hope can we have that he will listen to us?

But God bless your efforts.

Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #21 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 23:21:31 »
Charles... the truth is being preached. If anyone reads here and realizes what is going on, they ignore Robert, and take in the truth that the rest of us are speaking, It's pretty good thread on the Word of God and Jesus!  Amen?

Some good stuff has been posted here if someone wants to glean from it.  (outside of what Robert has said). 

READ THE WORD!!!

Offline Dave...

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Manna: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #22 on: Tue Apr 29, 2008 - 23:22:25 »
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 01:05:28 by Dave... »

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #23 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 07:45:58 »
Dave

I will come up with scripture that will reveal the Gospel.   But not today, maybe tomorrow.

Offline memmy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11973
  • Manna: 322
  • Gender: Female
  • Blessings
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #24 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 10:33:14 »
If only we could just relax and realize that none of us are, or have ever been in control.

If only we could see in scriptures that when we truly search for God, He makes Himself known.

If only we could see how God used many of those for His purpose, are those who now days, we would condemn.

If only we could see that when He did use them, He did so because of their faith in who He was, and in what He said He could do.

If only....

Then maybe some day we could see that it is He who is made in us, not how we make others in Him.

That would be when we would truly be living by the Bible.

Blessings, Memmy

da525382

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #25 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 12:06:29 »
Quotes following are from Robert:

Quote
So much unbelief.  So much denial.

Yes indeed, you have so much of both.

Quote
Everything must be viewed in the light of the gospel. The gospel interprets the whole Bible.

That is babbling jibberish.  The gospel is imparted to us via the whole Bible.

Quote
The Bible is a book of information concerning what Christ has done to redeem fallen humanity.

The Bible is a continuous written revelation of the story of God's redeeming of fallen man, how it all started, how it will end, all of it inspired.

Quote
If you don't understand the gospel you won't understand the Bible

You've got that exactly backwards.

Quote
Paul makes it very clear that we are to live by the Spirit and not the letter of the law.

That's a non-starter, a non-argument.....everyone here believes that because it is taught by Scripture, not by you.

Quote
What is the law?  When one reads the commandments and the ordinances it does not take long for one to discover that the law effects every facet of your life.  The Jews came up with over 600 rules to live by.  Every scripture that tells us to do something is law.

Just because you are not to place your faith and trust in it does not mean to trash it.
It is a reflection of God, his character and perfection.  You just utterly repudiate it.

Quote
It is impossible to obey the scriptures.  If you try to live by the scriptures you will fail.  When you fail, if you do not confess that you have failed, then you become a hypocrite.

You are the only one on this forum who has constructed this garantuan strawman.  No one here argues that scriptures are created to obey for the sake of salvational obedience.
No one.  You call us hypocrites, I respond that you do not speak the truth, nor do you find reverence a value connected to the God of your own salvation.

Quote
The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has come into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. 

Duh.

Quote
He is the new Adam and the new creation.  By his sinless life he has offered everything to God that the law requires.  He is our righteousness.  We don't have any, because we are sinners.  Because he was sinless he was able to atone for our sins.  In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30. 

Every one of these concepts is made real to you only via scripture, and even in your reading and understanding of the Law.   In fact, you cannot make this great leap of understanding except by God's quickening of you through His written word, for therein is where the Spirit works when you hear.  You have not come to this realization because you have decided to trash scripture and live by the Spirit, you have selfishly clung to your own salvation as your glorious understanding of the gospel and your glorious trashing of everything written surrounding it.  Your worship your own one dimensional thought construct and you seem only to be quite glad when you can find a scripture or two from Paul that seems to agree with you. 

Quote
Because we are still in the flesh of Adam God does not accept our works and our obedience.  God only accepts the work and the obedience of Jesus Christ.  This salvation that God has provided for us in Jesus Christ took place completely outside of us, we had nothing to do with it.  We are justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.

And this is the other gargantuan strawman you create and pulverize against everyone here.  I know of no one here that argues we are not justified by faith.

Quote
If you are trying to please God by obeying the scriptures you are under the law.

That is a created notion in your own mind.  It is a statement of absolute ignorance.  I have responded to this notion repeatedly.  No one here has ever told you that we are to bow our knee before the Bible.

Quote
If you think that you have some righteousness that God will accept, you are under the law.

Sure you are, you're under the law of this world, controlled by the principality of this world, you're unsaved, you're an unbeliever, you're deluded by sin and the prince of darkness....and on and on, so what?  Of course the only righteousness that counts is Christ's.  No one here is holding their righteousness out in place of Christ's like you endlessly insist.

Quote
If you think that your works will please God, you are under the law
No one here thinks their own works will please God, Robert.  It's just a ditto arugument I'm making to you......ditto, ditto, ditto........You won't listen because all you do in your glass house is sit there and judge everyone here as doing our own works to please God, to save ourselves, etc.  Why not go ahead and call everyone here fools, then?

Quote
If you think that you are saved by what you do, or by what you have become, you are under the law.

Ditto.

Quote
To be under the law means that you will be judged by the law, and you are under the condemnation of God.

Ditto.

Quote
Let him who has ears to hear, hear
Let him who has a mouth and a tongue tame them, use them wisely, pray for wisdom and knowledge from God, and most of all, as James said, be quick to hear and slow to speak.  You haven't heard a thing spoken to you by those of us here, you're slowness of hearing approches deafness.  And your quickness to speak is that of pure judgmentalism, which in and of itself is characterized by quickness of speech in the absence of connected thought.

Offline Dave...

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Manna: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #26 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 12:12:58 »
Robert, God in his Word makes the distinction between obedience and sacrifice. Perhaps you should do the same.

Dave

ohmi

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #27 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 12:25:12 »
Living by the Bible ...
The book of Romans is the most complete exposition given anywhere of the Christian gospel and its ramifications for life.  But there is an astonishing aspect to this book.  Nowhere does Paul tell us how to study the Bible and how urgent it is to live by the Bible.  In fact, such instruction is nowhere to be found in the great body of Pauline literature.  Paul did not live by the written letter of the law (scripture). 

 The saints of God have no need of the bible since they are taught by baptism of the holy spirit of God Himself  to know all truth and the future before their death in Christ - John 16:13

John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

- the new covenant itself [heb 8:8-12] reaffirms this :-

Hebrews 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 Thus the role of scripture is the creation of modern apostate divided christianity both down the ages and as the eventual weapon of the antichrist [in unification of the churches to worship the antichrist as the christ -Rev 13] to create the precious trial of the saints, their perfection of love :-

 

Offline Charles Sloan

  • Prisoner of Grace
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5403
  • Manna: 2209
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #28 on: Wed Apr 30, 2008 - 13:05:57 »
The saints of God have no need of the bible...

Thats not what Paul said to Timothy.

2Ti 3:15-17 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #29 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 09:28:40 »
So much unbelief.  So much denial.

Everything must be viewed in the light of the gospel. The gospel interprets the whole Bible.

The Bible is a book of information concerning what Christ has done to redeem fallen humanity.  If you don't understand the gospel you won't understand the Bible.  Paul makes it very clear that we are to live by the Spirit and not the letter of the law.

What is the law?  When one reads the commandments and the ordinances it does not take long for one to discover that the law effects every facet of your life.  The Jews came up with over 600 rules to live by.  Every scripture that tells us to do something is law.

It is impossible to obey the scriptures.  If you try to live by the scriptures you will fail.  When you fail, if you do not confess that you have failed, then you become a hypocrite.

The Gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ has come into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.  He is our representative.  He is the new Adam and the new creation.  By his sinless life he has offered everything to God that the law requires.  He is our righteousness.  We don't have any, because we are sinners.  Because he was sinless he was able to atone for our sins.  In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30.  

Because we are still in the flesh of Adam God does not accept our works and our obedience.  God only accepts the work and the obedience of Jesus Christ.  This salvation that God has provided for us in Jesus Christ took place completely outside of us, we had nothing to do with it.  We are justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.

If you are trying to please God by obeying the scriptures you are under the law.

If you think that you have some righteousness that God will accept, you are under the law.

If you think that your works will please God, you are under the law.

If you think that you are saved by what you do, or by what you have become, you are under the law.

To be under the law means that you will be judged by the law, and you are under the condemnation of God.

Let him who has ears to hear, hear.


Robert, do even wonder why nobody agrees with you?  The Bible was written by the Lord.  It's His way of talking to us today.  The only way you'll ever know what God wants is to know His Word.

Paul was not against the law.  He said the law is good.  If not for the law we wouldn't even know what sin is.

The 600 laws the Jews made up are the laws Paul speaks against, them and the OT ordinances such as circumscion and sacrificial laws.  The commandments and ordinances of the NT we are to obey with the help of our Saviour.

His dying saved us from our sins but it also made way for Grace and the Holy Spirit.  We strive to obey God as he conforms us to the image of His Son. We should not grieve the Holy Spirit by ignoring the Will of God.

Paul was speaking to the Galatiaons. who had turned from Grace, in other words had turned from believing in Christ, and wished to go back and live under the OT laws.  Again those are the laws Paul preaches against because to do so denies that Christ has come in the flesh and only through Him can we even begin to live Godly lives, once we have believed and accepted the free gift of Salvation.

Paul does not refer to the Bible because it hadn't been written yet.  The letters he wrote to the different churches are what makes up a large portion of the NT.  Jesus' teachings and the other writings of the Apostles make up the rest of it. They were holy men who wrote as the Spirit inspired them.

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #30 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 09:39:05 »
The saints of God have no need of the bible...

Thats not what Paul said to Timothy.

2Ti 3:15-17 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Amen!
(I was typing while you replied or I would have left part of my post off.)

Offline Javelin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #31 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 14:52:50 »
Living by the Bible

By Robert Brinsmead

Paul's reply is summarized in Galatians 5:18: "If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law ( Torah- Jewish scripture)." In 2nd Corinthians 3:6 Paul says, "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."  In Romans 7 the apostle also uses another synonym for being under the law - being controlled by the "letter" The Greek word for the letter is gramma and the emphasis is on the written textually of the Torah.

The book of Romans is the most complete exposition given anywhere of the Christian gospel and its ramifications for life.  But there is an astonishing aspect to this book.  Nowhere does Paul tell us how to study the Bible and how urgent it is to live by the Bible.  In fact, such instruction is nowhere to be found in the great body of Pauline literature.  Paul did not live by the written letter of the law (scripture). 

His religion was not textually dominated and controlled. In his attacks in Galatians and Corinthians he makes it clear that this manner of using the Bible kills rather than brings life.  It imprisons rather than frees.  Living by the letter incites one to do evil and stimulates a person to do exactly what it forbids (Romans 7) Used in this way, the law, scripture - stirs up all kinds of evil desires. Indeed Paul uses the analogy of the serpent in the Garden of Eden.  "Sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death" (Romans 7:11).  Such use of the Bible really makes people hypocrites.


Just found this forum. This is my first post. I agree, at least in principle, with your thoughts Robert. I had a 20+ year relationship with the Churches of Christ and their restoration beliefs & text focused traditions. I rejected that thinking and association a few years ago, without regret I might add.

I do not believe your thoughts, in any way, are a repudiation of scripture. I view your thoughts in the context of emphasis. I view our present day English translated bibles in the context of principles & concepts rather than commands and laws.

It is my personal belief, after 40+ years of biblical study, that our present day bibles contain both inerrancy and inspiration but are not fully inerrant or inspired, unless of course biblical translators are inspired, but I do not believe they are. In other words, our present day bibles, NT specific, provide an excellent guideline for walking by faith, but it was not intended to be used as a book of laws, rules, and commands requiring meticulous obedience.  I assume my view would be in the minority. I've posted on an ex-Church of Christ board for a few years now, so I used to having my views criticized by the traditional sola scriptura crowd.   ::eatingpopcorn:





Offline kensington

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6816
  • Manna: 356
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #32 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 15:53:29 »
Bonnie... I saw you asked Robert if he ever wondered why no one agreed with him....

I can answer that.  NO... He does not.

He has stated before He is the ONLY one who has truth. He is the ONLY one who was sent to straighten us all out.

HTH.

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #33 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:18:10 »
Bonnie... I saw you asked Robert if he ever wondered why no one agreed with him....

I can answer that.  NO... He does not.

He has stated before He is the ONLY one who has truth. He is the ONLY one who was sent to straighten us all out.

HTH.

LOL  I cannot understand how in the world he comes up with some of that stuff.

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Living by the Bible
« Reply #34 on: Thu May 01, 2008 - 17:58:35 »
This is really sad.  Some are so desperate to live by written instructions that they have taken Paul's instructions to believers and have made them laws and rules to live by.  Paul never intended for his instructions to become law.  They were simple instructions to new believers.  Another misuse of the Bible.

If you are living by written instructions you are living by the law.  Mature Christians do not need to be told how they should live.  We are no longer under the school master.

Hebrews 8:10  "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts: and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.

 

     
anything