Author Topic: Mark 16:17-20  (Read 6056 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 15:14:10 »
Jarrod my brother you asked "Does it contain an authentic doctrine of the early church?  Yes.  How much is that worth to you, if it does not have the rubber-stamp approval of canon?"

My answer is I feel that it is well covered and supported by scripture throughout the New Testament to make it an authentic doctrine of the early church. If it was not written by an Apostle here in Mark it was proclaimed by them else where so it is still the word of God so still an authentic doctrine.

Although I do look up to your knowledge so if you feel I should not be giving it credit then I will have to look for the passages that are scattered to prove the same point.
Canonicity is basically a vouchsafe saying "its okay to establish doctrine from this book."

The end of Mark isn't canon according to both Eusebius and Jerome, two guys who had a lot to say about what is or isn't canon.  That being so, we shouldn't establish doctrine from those verses.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't read them, or know about them, though.

There is a strange movement in the church to actively shun every ancient book that isn't explicitly canon.  Even books in the deuterocanon, which WERE canonized, are regarded as suspicious by many believers.  I don't get it.  People don't hesitate to pick up a book written in 2020 AD.  Why is it that being written in 120 AD immediately makes something worthless?  If anything, the older authors are closer to the original practice of Christianity than we are today.

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 16:32:44 »
So how much of Mark is allowed as scripture?

Just wondering do you believe that the teaching from Mark 16 is taught elsewhere in the New Testament even though it is not recorded by an Apostle in Mark it is recorded by an apostle elsewhere?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 18:06:57 »
So how much of Mark is allowed as scripture?
Everything before Mark 16:9.

Just wondering do you believe that the teaching from Mark 16 is taught elsewhere in the New Testament even though it is not recorded by an Apostle in Mark it is recorded by an apostle elsewhere?
I want to say yes.  I probably have in the past.  ::noworries::

But... earlier in this thread someone was saying that signs/miracles are performed by ALL BELIEVERS, based on these verses.  I can't think of another place in the Bible that says the same.  And that clearly doesn't happen, based on life experience (unless you're willing to condemn almost everyone as a non-believer I suppose).

Context perhaps demands that this applies only to the apostles, but I don't like that as a solution.  My understanding of Mark is that it was written for the church at large, and what is demonstrated there is meant to be patterned by everyone.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 18:45:49 »
To me belief and baptism are strongly strongly associated with salvation all over the NT. I don’t see the “controversial verses” as all that controversial, so I have to agree with Yogi. The verse doesn’t make sense or is very controversial  if one is used to parsing baptism away from faith. I believe first century Christians would have thought parsing baptism away from faith would be VERY strange. A lot of people read the words, but their mind’s eye sees “He that believes and is saved shall be baptized”
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 05:00:11 by Jaime »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 18:45:49 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #74 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 20:18:55 »
Luke 24 :49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."


Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]


Are these not all saying the same thing more or less maybe not worded word for word but same message. Gifts will company the Apostles to confirm the WORD

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #74 on: Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 20:18:55 »

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #75 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 04:18:56 »
Jude.
Jude was the brother of James.
Quote
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Seem clear cut to me. Here you will find both of them together:
Quote
Luke 6:13-16~"And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."
In Matthew's gospel, Jude is called by a different name:
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Matthew 10:2-3~"Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Just like Peter had more than one name, so did Jude the apostle, brother of James who was one of the main pillars at the church in Jerusalem.

I think you need to do more studying on this. Actually, it is very simple to see.

While I'm speaking to you, let me say this about Mark 16. If we cannot trust ALL scriptures in Mark 16 as being part of the original Gospel that was given to be part of the word of God, then how can we truly trust any of the scriptures as being the very words given to us by the God of heaven? We CAN NOT, so I believe every word in our old English bible is the very words of God, each and every single word, even down to the coma, etc. If that is simple-minded, then so be it~ At least my heart is fixed trusting in ALL of the words of God.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 04:28:54 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #76 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 05:14:28 »
Here is the sum of what we have said:

And so when examined carefully we see that all of these verses of Mark chapter 16, as understood in the light of God's Word are not a statement that believers will be able to do literal miracles, rather they are a statement that the miracles that accompany Salvation are infinitely more important than a lust for powers which belong to God alone! An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after signs (Matthew 12:39). And the only sign that shall be given us is the sign of Jonah in the resurrection of Christ. i.e., the sign of Salvation. The Signs which shall follow those who believe are spiritually discerned. By the Holy Spirit of truth do we discern that these things are true.

We indeed (by the power of the gospel) in Christ's Name cast out devils, for Satan is evicted from He who is born of God. We have been given the 'spiritual' keys of the Kingdom to loose on earth what 'has been' loosed in heaven. We are the vessels God uses to do his will.

We indeed in Christ's name speak in new tongues or languages, for the gospel has gone out to every language in all the earth, and every tongue and nation understand what was before a mystery hidden in the scriptures. Our Commission to go to the ends of the earth with the gospel is faithfully being fulfilled in He who believes.

We Indeed In Christ's Name have the power to take up Serpents and not be harmed. For we have no fear of that old serpent Satan, nor his minions, for they have no power to harm us.
Quote
Philippians 1:28~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

If we should drink any deadly thing it will not harm us. Because doctrines are like deadly poison, but we are sealed or secured by the Holy Spirit, wherein we are safe from being poisoned (deceived) by the false prophets and teachers of this world. See Matthew 24:24. We are those who by the power of God keep the Word faithfully, that falsehoods do not harm us.

And indeed, in Christ's name, through His Spirit and by our laying hands on the spiritually sick, they recover. By coming with the word of God in our hands those sinners (sick) are revealed how by the stripes of Christ, they were healed who died specifically for that purpose.

Yes, all these verses unquestionably belong in the Bible, for the Bible 'itself' testifies of their faithfulness. Every word of this is true. These signs do follow them that believe. And if you are of these who speak with the new languages of Christ, you should understand this, because you have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within you that these things are Spiritually discerned. All of God's people say Amen!
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 05:24:53 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #77 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 05:23:49 »
Yogi, I will answer your post later, and then I'm finished with this subject.  Later RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 07:01:42 »
We Indeed In Christ's Name have the power to take up Serpents and not be harmed. For we have no fear of that old serpent Satan, nor his minions, for they have no power to harm us.
So then according to your interpretation of Mark 16:17-20, what is recorded in Acts 28:3-5 wasn't actually a venomous snake that bit Paul's hand, it was simply Paul speaking out against that old serpent Satan?  I don't think so.

You are creating totally inappropriate metaphors for Mark 16:17-20.  Verse 17 says "And these signs will accompany...", but what you are describing are not signs in any sense whatever.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #78 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 07:01:42 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #79 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 07:58:05 »
RED let me be clear. Yes God is still working with the church and doing your newly defined gifts in some manner but not in the manner in which Mark 16 is talking about. Mark 16 is talking about supernatural gifts and that has been proven so you have to admit that God is still working within the body but not no longer like in Mark 16 that was for confirmation of the word it clearly says that.
He no longer is confirming the WORD because it is now recorded. It is even recorded that it is recorded. It is recorded that the signs were recorded that we today may have faith. It is recorded that the Signs were for confirming the WORD nothing else But confirming the word. WE must keep to what the bible says and not try to make it expand to cover what we say it says.


Red if we can agree that Mark 16 says that the signs were given to confirm the word and now the word is confirmed so the supernatural gift in Mark 16 have ceased then we have come to agreement that the bible is true and we have no debate.

All the added meaning you are trying to give the supernatural gifts may be happening but that was not what the Mark 16 passages was talking about.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 08:03:10 by yogi bear »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #80 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 08:10:37 »
But... earlier in this thread someone was saying that signs/miracles are performed by ALL BELIEVERS, based on these verses.  I can't think of another place in the Bible that says the same.  And that clearly doesn't happen, based on life experience (unless you're willing to condemn almost everyone as a non-believer I suppose).
There is a certain western mindset of egalitarianism.  It is very individualistic.  And it basically has the belief that anything automatically applies to everyone equally.  "No Jew or Gentile, no male or female, no slave or free" is their battle cry.   It has taken the group statement "We have the mind of Christ;"  (1 Cor 2.16) and changed it into "I have the mind of Christ."

Never mind that Paul wrote a series of rhetorical questions to the church at Corinth:

All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?  (1 Cor 12.29-30)

Of course the expected answer is NO to all of them, which exactly goes against the interpretation of Mark 16 that it had to apply in every aspect to every individual believer. 

The signs follow the GROUP, not the individual.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #81 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 12:24:56 »
RB,
Quote
Yet in Mark 16, the signs follow BELIEVERS who were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Believers in this context does not mean the signs follow THE SAVED who were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, because in verse 16 belief was placed before and as a condition to being saved, not as those who are were already saved. Those who believe and are baptized WILL BE saved. Not, those who believe and are saved will be baptized. The believers who were then baptized would be saved, in that order.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 12:30:03 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #82 on: Thu Jul 28, 2022 - 12:36:10 »
AMEN ! !

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #83 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 04:27:00 »
RB, Believers in this context does not mean the signs follow THE SAVED who were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, because in verse 16 belief was placed before and as a condition to being saved, not as those who are were already saved. Those who believe and are baptized WILL BE saved. Not, those who believe and are saved will be baptized. The believers who were then baptized would be saved, in that order.
Greetings Edward, long time no see~good to see you posting, you need to do so more often.

I highlighted what I consider your serious error, and serious it is, even though 4WD gave you a shout of an amen.

Edward, there are no conditions to be born again, that's the language of the OT, not of the New Covenant. I might add, that the teaching of the Old Covenant is not only "this do and live"~but this do in thought, word, and deed perfectly from conception to death of the body. Only Jesus Christ did so, and we will add~it's impossible for a man born of Adam, to do so, especially so, knowing we were conceived with the fallen image of the first Adam.

Also, Mark 16:15,16 is not a conditional scripture, but the Lord Jesus is declaring a biblical truth which can be supported by many other scriptures, and it is this: "He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved!

Salvation in these two scriptures is strictly limited to a practical salvation of knowledge of having a greater understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it has not one thing to do with regeneration, or being born again, not one thing. Consider: before the coming of Jesus Christ, there were believers in this world~per Hebrews 11 gives testimony of some of them~there were believers during the times of Christ's days in the flesh, and there will be many believers after the NT was to be completed. AMONG the three groups which one do you think had the GREATER understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Without question post completion of the holy scriptures! Edward, not even the apostles had a very clear understanding of Christ's death and resurrection, read the gospel and you must admit this is so.

My point is this~All Christ is revealing to us is, that as the gospel goes out into all the world those who believe and are baptized WILL BE SAVE with a greater understanding than those before them!

Edward, the condemnation is pronounced upon those who DO NOT BELIEVE, not upon those who were not baptized, or shall not be baptized for whatever reason. If a person during the days of the apostles believe then they were COMMANDED to be baptized, yet for whatever reason, some since the apostles are not if they believe will still be among the just on that day, only the unbelievers will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. 

Edward, one more point, and then I'm finished for now. Your statement which I highlighted in red above, is against many scriptures. You need to reread Acts ten and make your position flow with Cornelius being born of God BEFORE water baptism!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Acts 10:47~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Edward what Cornelius DID receive by Peter's message was the very salvation that's mention by Jesus in Mark 16:16!
Quote from: Again the HOLY GHOST
Acts 11:1416~Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."
Read Acts 10 carefully (which I believe you do) and consider that he was a child of God, yet without very much knowledge of Christ's gospel, and as soon as he heard words that saved him from not knowing to know more, he was baptized with the Holy Ghost, evidence of this by speaking in tongues, then and ONLY then did Peter command him to be water baptized!  This is the truth, nothing but the truth, and all should consider this truth, or Mark 16:16 will forever be close to their understanding.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 04:30:41 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #84 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 04:42:08 »
So then according to your interpretation of Mark 16:17-20, what is recorded in Acts 28:3-5 wasn't actually a venomous snake that bit Paul's hand, it was simply Paul speaking out against that old serpent Satan?  I don't think so.

You are creating totally inappropriate metaphors for Mark 16:17-20.  Verse 17 says "And these signs will accompany...", but what you are describing are not signs in any sense whatever.


4WD, of course, the viper that took hold of Paul's hand was a viper and venomous~I never denied the apostles did not have supernatural power and could use them IF NEEDED, I freely admitted this more than once in this thread.

Yet, that does not mean that we as believers do not walk among little serpents who are children of the devil, and we are protected from them to the degree we put our faith in the Lord. We are protected from their poisonous teachings~we cannot be totally deceived by them, impossible per Matthew 24:24. We have the seal of God upon us to protect us.
Quote
Revelation 7:3~"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
Apart from this, yes we could be hurt by their lying doctrines of devils.

Good to see you posting, still praying for you my brother.

Offline RB

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #85 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 04:56:38 »
RED let me be clear.
I never have said you were not clear as to what you believe. You are clear that supernatural gifts are no longer in the church post the apsotles~and I FULLY agree.

You are very clear that the apostle's gifts were to confirm them leaving Judaism to live in the kingdom of Jesus Christ where he now sits as King over the tabernacle of David, though you never said it in these exact words, nevertheless, I FULLY AGREE.

Where we disagree is that Mark 16:17,18 are now for ALL BELIEVERS, and can be understood by searching the NT for its true meaning.

I agree Mark 16:19,20 (which is clearly making another statement, apart from 17,18) is to be applied to the apostles, along with Hebrews 2 and other scriptures. 

So, we are not that far apart. Much closer than the word of faith movement, and the Pentecostals, charismatics, etc.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #86 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 07:08:39 »
At this very time, the democrats are trying to change the definition of an economic recession.  They are doing that because the well-recognized definition of an economic recession doesn't fit their narrative.  RB, that is what you are doing with the well-recognized definition of salvation.  You are doing that because it doesn't fit your narrative. The salvation in Mark 16:16 that Jesus promises to the one who believes and is baptized is eternal life. In speaking of salvation spiritually, the only salvation being discussed is eternal life. That is obvious in Mark 16:16 because Jesus states there specifically that the alternative to being saved is being condemned.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 07:10:51 by 4WD »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #87 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 09:28:08 »
Quote
Where we disagree is that Mark 16:17,18 are now for ALL BELIEVERS, and can be understood by searching the NT for its true meaning.

Red I will leave you with your belief I still disagree that it said it was for all but you can believe what you wish. I will say that the Word says that they were for a time and will cease which you agree but then you try to redefine them so as to justify your belief just as you do salvation.
Quote
Salvation in these two scriptures is strictly limited to a practical salvation of knowledge of having a greater understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it has not one thing to do with regeneration, or being born again, not one thing. Consider: before the coming of Jesus Christ, there were believers in this world

Red seriously practical salvation of knowledge Gods word never speaks of anything like this it comes from man trying to distort Gods word and with statement like that you want me to take you seriously?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #88 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 10:23:27 »
Jude was the brother of James.
Your refusal to consider history or tradition has foiled you again.  According to everyone who wrote anything in the early church, Jude was the brother of Jesus.  Whether this is true or not, for the purposes of this conversation, it is enough that the folks who actually canonized the Bible believed it to be true.  This book was canonized in large part because it was thought to be the work of the Jude, the brother of Jesus the Christ.

I think you need to do more studying on this.
I also think you need to do more studying on this.  In particular, you might want to read about Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Nicene council.

While I'm speaking to you, let me say this about Mark 16. If we cannot trust ALL scriptures in Mark 16 as being part of the original Gospel that was given to be part of the word of God, then how can we truly trust any of the scriptures as being the very words given to us by the God of heaven? We CAN NOT, so I believe every word in our old English bible is the very words of God, each and every single word, even down to the coma, etc. If that is simple-minded, then so be it~ At least my heart is fixed trusting in ALL of the words of God.
Your logic is spurious, here.  Not only that, but it's dumb.

If I write a couple sentences on the last page of your Bible, will that also invalidate the whole book?  That's literally what happened here.

Jarrod

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #89 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 10:27:46 »
There is a certain western mindset of egalitarianism.  It is very individualistic.  And it basically has the belief that anything automatically applies to everyone equally.  "No Jew or Gentile, no male or female, no slave or free" is their battle cry.   It has taken the group statement "We have the mind of Christ;"  (1 Cor 2.16) and changed it into "I have the mind of Christ."

Never mind that Paul wrote a series of rhetorical questions to the church at Corinth:

All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?  (1 Cor 12.29-30)

Of course the expected answer is NO to all of them, which exactly goes against the interpretation of Mark 16 that it had to apply in every aspect to every individual believer. 

The signs follow the GROUP, not the individual.
You said it better than I did.  +1

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #90 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 16:46:34 »
RB, thank you for your kind words. I wish I could. To this end, shorter responses may help.

You got a point. Mark 16:16 isn't in and if itself the strongest language as a condition. It could be a condition, or it could be just an association the way it's written, as in "the ones who believe in her baptized, they're the ones who are going to be saved. Since God knows the future he can give us that sort of a sign. Just like the one who's dipped his bread will be the one to betray Jesus, dipping the bread did not make Judas betray Jesus, or did not make Judas a traitor." The way Mark 16:16 is written, it could go either way. This is what you're saying, if I understand correctly.

But it could still go in the direction of a condition. Your state that there are no conditions to be born again, is in error.

Matthew 1:21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;


This is not just an association, so that (or that in the kjv) makes it a condition for sins being wiped away.

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [10] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The "if" and "resulting in" is unavoidable as a condition.
So then Mark 16:16 is a condition.
And belief and baptism are still both before being saved in Mark 16:16.

There are conditions to being born again, unless you don't believe that having ones sins wiped away and being saved are synonymous with being born again.

Acts 10 doesn't say they were saved before they were baptized in water. It says they received the Holy Spirit on or upon them. It's only those who favor certain beliefs who turn that into having been saved.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 18:14:03 by e.r.m. »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #91 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 18:46:45 »
Those in Acts 10 believed and were baptized.

Those that favor certain beliefs is everyone.  Anyone who thinks they read scripture with no bias is lying to themselves.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #92 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 19:08:47 »
Texas Conservative, I appreciate your objectivity.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #93 on: Fri Jul 29, 2022 - 20:59:17 »
I believe we could all come together if we seek the answer to why be baptized? We all agree Jesus commanded to believe and be baptized but if we could find the biblical answer as to why He commanded it that would clear up a lot of miss understanding and we could all stand in unity in Gods word.

So lets all give our answer to why did Jesus command us to be baptized in the name of Christ.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:09:29 by yogi bear »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #94 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 04:02:00 »
I also think you need to do more studying on this.  In particular, you might want to read about Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Nicene council. Your logic is spurious, here.  Not only that, but it's dumb.
I will rather be dumb in your eyes, than fall under the judgment of God.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST the Author of the word of God
Revelation 22:18,19~"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
The bible is one cohesive whole, add to any part, OR, take away from any part, God will live up to the words here spoken, be assured of that.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 10:23:27
If I write a couple sentences on the last page of your Bible, will that also invalidate the whole book?  That's literally what happened here.
Such a foolish statement, by a man who thinks he is wise. Tell God in that day, and see what He thinks of your statement. Pretty sure your loins will be loose.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 04:10:13 by RB »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #95 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 06:48:47 »
Yogi,
Quote
I believe we could all come together if we seek the answer to why be baptized? We all agree Jesus commanded to believe and be baptix=zed but if we could find the biblical answer as tom why He commanded it that would clear up a lot of miss understanding and we could all stand in unity in Gods word.

So lets all give our answer to why did Jesus command us to be baptized in the name of Christ.
Let's not give our own answer. As you said if we could find the biblical answer as to why he commanded it, that would clear up a lot of misunderstanding. Let us give scriptures as to why we should be baptized in Jesus's name.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:26:22 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #96 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:07:22 »
E.R.M. Yes a better answer but I was mainly saying show your answer with scriptural support and less get to the truth.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #97 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:17:32 »
Yogi,
 ::clappingoverhead::

It's my experience though that those who adhere to the by "grace alone, through faith alone" belief system get stuck on such a request. They either give their own personal belief without scripture, or they give scriptures that don't apply to the question.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 09:04:40 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #98 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:29:11 »
So being no one has given an answer I guess I will go first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I think that says it pretty clearly so I have nothing to add being I agree with the scriptures answer.

If that wasn't clear enough Paul echoes it for you in Romans 6:3-7

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

So my answer is it is for remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling Spirit.

That is my biblical answer so do I get a thumbs up or a rebuttal.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #99 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:33:21 »
::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #100 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 09:05:37 »
 ::applause::

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #101 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 09:07:41 »

Yogi,
Quote
I believe we could all come together if we seek the answer to why be baptized? We all agree Jesus commanded to believe and be baptix=zed but if we could find the biblical answer as tom why He commanded it that would clear up a lot of miss understanding and we could all stand in unity in Gods word.

So lets all give our answer to why did Jesus command us to be baptized in the name of Christ
.

No, let's not give our answer. As you said if we could find the biblical answer as to why he commanded it, that would clear up a lot of misunderstanding. Let us give scriptures as to why we should be baptized in Jesus's name.[/size]

Posted by: e.r.m.
« on: Today at 08:17:32
Quote

Yogi,

 ::clappingoverhead::

It's my experience though that those who adhere to the by "grace alone, through faith alone" belief system get stuck on such a request. They either give their own personal belief without scripture, or they give scriptures that don't apply to the question.

 ::eek::

As one who "walks by faith and not by sight 2 Corinthians 5:7

I shall let my grace alone, through faith alone follow Paul and his wisdom. Ephesians 2:8-9


You can just ignore me but as you are coming to your conclusions as to why Jesus commanded baptism in the name of Christ from a biblical standpoint... please consider who and why that was not the case by Paul.

I provide scripture for all points and could spend the rest of the day providing more, so do not lump me in with your faith alone/ grace alone stereotypes because I do not fit that bill  ::tippinghat::


Is the following not correct? If not please correct me.

Paul’s message was specifically for the Gentiles and the Gentiles did not rely on ceremnial cleanliness.

Therefore, in explanation to the Gentiles he explained to them  there is only one baptism and it is done by the Holy Spirit .

The purpose of which, according to Paul  is to join people together into one holy body –the body of Christ.

Paul’s ministry did not include water baptism because the Gentiles didn’t need to end their relationship with the Mosaic Law.

They needed to begin a relationship with the living God.


Biblical supporting of this  be found in some of Pauls statements....

 I Corinthians 9:22: KJV  To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Romans 9:3: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Galatians 4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

Every student of the Scriptures knows that  Paul ranked first as a “soul winner”

He sacrificed and suffered more than any other apostle or disciple in his desire and endeavor to bring men and women to Christ for salvation.

Most notable is his claim  in  I Corinthians 15:10. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

He agonized for them.

And yet he said in I Corinthians 1:14 “I thank God I baptized none of you except . . .”

 Remember...  this statement is in the same epistle in which Paul wrote, 1 Corinthians 9:22  “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”

So enter again into the subject of " why did Jesus command us to be baptized in the name of Christ "

And further examination of scriptures has us understanding that Jesus' ministry to the non-Jews of Palestine were secondary to His ministry for He explained in Mathew 15:24  “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” . Jesus’ short ministry of 3 1/3 years had to be focused primarily on the Jews, though, in truth... when occasion offered itself, He did not deny the Gentiles the blessings.

It was, as we know , that they had to end their relationship with Mosaic Law.

So we can conclude Paul’s message... which was for the Gentiles... did not include baptism. The Jews who had been practicing the law with its ceremonial washings for hundreds of years  needed one last washing for closure. But the Gentiles didn’t. They needed a relationship with God without all the religious trappings.

Paul identified two detractors from the cross of Christ. The first is the cleverness of speech. It elevates the speaker above the Savior. He wanted his words to remain simple so that everyone could understand ...and that their salvation would rest solely on the power of God .

In 1 Corinthians 1:17,  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The other detractor is baptism. He saw that it caused divisions in the church ...1 Corinthians 1:10-17....

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 Believers were becoming disciples (students) of Apollos and Peter and Christ. Paul’s mission was to bring people to a united faith in Christ.
[/color]
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 09:21:52 by Rella »

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #102 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 09:30:56 »
So being no one has given an answer I guess I will go first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I think that says it pretty clearly so I have nothing to add being I agree with the scriptures answer.

If that wasn't clear enough Paul echoes it for you in Romans 6:3-7

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

So my answer is it is for remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling Spirit.

That is my biblical answer so do I get a thumbs up or a rebuttal.

No thumbs from me.... but Ill ask you a question.

Was Paul a Jew?

While you certainly know the answer is yes... by birth, culture, and religion.

Knowing about him, of which there is a great deal more, helps to understand his stance on things.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #103 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 10:10:12 »
Rella you said "Paul’s message was specifically for the Gentiles and the Gentiles did not rely on ceremnial cleanliness."

Rella Paul said this to the Romans

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Rella those are Paul's words He clearly believes that baptism is for the remission of sin and giving of the indwelling spirit as he makes that clear in his words here. The baptism he is talking about here is that of Acts 2:387 just as Peter was talking and all coming after them.

You said "The purpose of which, according to Paul  is to join people together into one holy body –the body of Christ." yes through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the death burial and resurrection.

1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

That is what He is saying in Romans 6:3-7

Rella that is the message to every living creature whether they be Jews, Gentile, American ,French or what ever the only way to be in Christ is to be baptized in the name of Christ that is the gospel message of the cross.
The very one that Paul preached and it is recorded for us to believe.

Rella you said "there is only one baptism and it is done by the Holy Spirit ." This is true but not in the manner you are interpreting it. The spirit is doing the teaching through the apostles he is leading us to the truth He is the author of the new testament it is because of him that we believe and are baptized therefore it is by one spirit we are baptized into Christ.

You said 'So we can conclude Paul’s message... which was for the Gentiles... did not include baptism. " Rella my dear sister if that is the conclusion you came to then you really missed what Paul was teaching. Paul taught baptism into Christ LOUD and clearly over and over you just must have misunderstood.

Rella you said ' They needed a relationship with God without all the religious trappings." What they needed was the gospel of Christ which is the power unto salvation just as every living being on this earth needs.

Now to deal with the rest of your reply
 1 Corinthians 1:17,  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.  Read that with open eyes it says he was not sent to be the baptized but to preach the Gospel and remember the gospel he said was the cross The db&r in which he told of in Romans 6 as well as many other places.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17....

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

In those passages Paul tells you why he does not do much of the baptizing. It is not what you said that he does not teach baptism but that he does not perform the act because he wants to focus on the message. He has others with preform the act but he proclaims baptism in Christ name as proven by his statement here is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? Baptism is because of the cross we are baptized into Christ because he was crucified for us Romans 6 Paul truly believes in Acts 2:38 and taught it.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Mark 16:17-20
« Reply #104 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 10:13:55 »
Rella,
Romans 1:5-7 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake. [6] And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. [7] To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:3-7 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [4] We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. [5] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. [6] For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--- [7] because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.


Paul's ministry to the Gentiles did include baptism. This directly contradicts the Jewish/Gentile baptism dichotomy that you passed on from others. That school of thought just did not exist in the first century. Don't change the goalpost. Just free yourself from this new teaching. And the purpose for such that Paul stated to the gentiles was for being crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

And this was not baptism with the Holy Spirit
Romans 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

There is a likeness to dying and being buried with him in baptism in water. There is no likeness to being buried with him with baptism with the Holy Spirit.

This new Paulinian subculture is untrue, it's entirely without meaning, a new gimmick based completely on "commentary", the scriptures themselves don't support it.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 11:26:57 by e.r.m. »