Author Topic: Matthew 12:40  (Read 9470 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rstrats

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Manna: 1
Matthew 12:40
« on: Thu Jan 31, 2013 - 09:18:57 »
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently suggest that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Matthew 12:40
« on: Thu Jan 31, 2013 - 09:18:57 »

Offline Talking Donkey

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #1 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 18:20:31 »
The only way to properly interpret a passage of Scripture is to have the entire Scripture itself tell us what it means (see Mat 12:1-6) by means of another passage, or, in case of prophecy, let history itself, by matching prophecy, be the evidence that proves that was the correct interpretation.  Since Jesus died on Thursday 3 pm and was buried before sunset that day (< 6 pm) and arose sometime during Sunday morning before sunrise, there we have the 3 days and 3 nights.

Thursday 3 pm - 6 pm  one day
All day Friday - one day  and one night
All day Saturday - one day and one night
Sunday (from 6 pm Saturday until around 5 AM Sunday morning) -   one night

Peace

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #2 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 18:41:46 »
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently suggest that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day.

In his book Horae Hebraicae Dr John Lightfoot  quotes the Jewish saying, "A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole" (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century.

« Last Edit: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 19:18:52 by Jerry Shugart »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #2 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 18:41:46 »

Offline rstrats

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Manna: 1
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #3 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 18:49:24 »
Talking Donkey,

Do you have any of the information asked for in the OP?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #3 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 18:49:24 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 19:17:28 »
Thursday 3 pm - 6 pm  one day
All day Friday - one day  and one night
All day Saturday - one day and one night
Sunday (from 6 pm Saturday until around 5 AM Sunday morning) -   one night

I see that you have the "first day of the week" beginning on the evening of Saturday.

However,we can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 09:40:22 by Jerry Shugart »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #4 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 19:17:28 »



Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #5 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 19:20:02 »
Talking Donkey,

Do you have any of the information asked for in the OP?

Did you overlook my information?:

In his book Horae Hebraicae Dr John Lightfoot  quotes the Jewish saying, "A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole" (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century).

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #5 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 19:20:02 »

Offline rstrats

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Manna: 1
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #6 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 20:14:40 »
Jerry Shugart,

re:  "'A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole' (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century)."


That quote by Rabbi Eliezar Ben Azariah, is contradicted by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba (contemporaries of Azariah) who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night - A "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica".


Do you have an actual example that supports Azariah's assertion?
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 20:21:57 by rstrats »

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 21:06:59 »
Do you have an actual example that supports Azariah's assertion?

Let us look at this verse referring to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus:

"Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again"
(Mt.27:63).

If three full days and nights are in view then the Lord Jesus would have been resurrected on the fourth day. But since only a partial day is in view He was resurrected on the "third" day and not the "fourth":

"Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly"
(Acts 10:40).

How can you explain that?

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 02, 2013 - 12:47:19 »
I see two gentlemen who are going to get acquainted ... ostensibly the first time.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 02, 2013 - 12:47:19 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #9 on: Sat Feb 02, 2013 - 14:11:59 »

The only way to properly interpret a passage of Scripture is to have the entire Scripture itself tell us what it means (see Mat 12:1-6) by means of another passage, or, in case of prophecy, let history itself, by matching prophecy, be the evidence that proves that was the correct interpretation.  Since Jesus died on Thursday 3 pm ………

You are right, Christ was crucified and died “on Thursday 3 pm”;
Better: on the Fifth Day of the week, ‘mid-afternoon’.

More complete:
Christ was crucified and died on the Fifth Day of the week,
“the ninth hour” Luke 23:44-46,
“The Preparation-of-the-Passover” John 19:14,
  the day “BEFORE the Feast” John 13:1,
“the head-first day ye shall remove leaven on” Exodus 12:11b,
“the first day they had to - Luke 22:7, always - Mark 14:12, KILL
  the passover”,
“the fourteenth day of the First Month” Exodus 12:6,
  the first of “three days thick darkness” Exodus 10:22,23 of
“the plague (that) was upon Him” Isaiah 53:8.


………
Since Jesus died on Thursday 3 pm and was buried before sunset that day (< 6 pm) ……

GE:
You no longer are correct. Jesus was NOT “buried before sunset (< 6 pm)” the day on which He was crucified and died, since Jesus died on Thursday 3 pm …
“and everyone that had come to that sight returned home mad with fear” Luke 23:48c.
“You will all be offended - Mark 14:27 I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered.” Matthew 26:33.

NO ONE buried Jesus THEN, FOR,
“If He be put to death and thou hang Him on a tree his body shall REMAIN on the tree not all night.” Deuteronomy 21:23
“WHEN IT HAD BECOME EVENING there came Joseph” Matthew 27:57, and
“After these things” John 19:38a, which “the Jews” first had done
“since it had become The Preparation” John 19:31 “evening
ALREADY having had come” Mark 15:42,
“Joseph besought Pilate that he MIGHT, take away the body of Jesus.” John 19:38b.

Soldier of the Cross

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #10 on: Sat Feb 02, 2013 - 19:40:59 »
Those who count hours, days sun down and sun rise should make good accounts, since their only motivation is in number crunching rather than looking at what is being said within the complete context of all the versus:

If we study the full context of the following versus below:

Matthew 12:38-41 (NIV)
The Sign of Jonah

38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

We extrapolate the following details to what has been said by whom and about whom. Essentially who were asking for the burden proof and who was supposed to proof to them who the messiah is.

These are the versus:

1) The Pharisees place the burden of proof on Jesus to reveal that in fact He was the messiah that Israel had been waiting for. So they say:

 Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.”

2) Jesus replies to their request as follows:

A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Jesus denied their request at that moment in time to show off a miracle as per the request of the Pharisees and pointed towards Jonah in relation to Himself, after all Jesus was cornered by the Pharisees who charged Him that the burden of proof had to come from Him.

3) Jesus tells them that He will not perform to their wicked hearts intentions, but replied that
the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I) Son of Man is Jesus Christ because after all Jesus was the one who was asked to prove himself to the Pharisees.

II) Three days and three nights are symbolic and represent God's Devine completion and perfection through His Christ who fulfilled the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week after being cut off (crucified).

III) The heart of the earth is grave


4) Then Jesus finally tops it off by stating:
one greater than Jonah is here.

So the symbolism of Jonah's three days and night are being compared to Jesus's death and resurrection.

As was the case when the men of Nineveh believed in Jonah when Jonah went from death in the belly of the whale to life and preached onto the Ninvites who when they believed fasted three days and nights without eating nor drinking water from their kings who dressed in sackcloth and kneeled on ashes to the smallest (babies) in Nineveh.

So Jesus's resurrection would bring life to those who believed in His three and half year ministry through his discipleship that represented the fist half of Daniel's 70th week. The remaining half of Daniel's 70th week were spent ministering to the saints who were sting in Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the earth (grave).

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #11 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 07:45:52 »

...  shucks ...! My! ... shucks!



Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #12 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 07:48:54 »


III) The heart of the earth is grave




...  shucks ...! My! ... shucks!

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #13 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 07:58:33 »
>> three days and three nights in the heart of the earth <<
… is “in the __heart__ of the earth” … figuratively, not, "the grave".
JESUS was DEAD “in his tomb” … not "ministering to the saints who were sting in Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the earth (grave)."

From where did you pick that up?!  Amazing!

This, >> as Jonah was <<
is Jesus, LIVING, ALIVE;
“as Jonas was … so will the Son of Man be ... in the heart of the earth”!

“As Jonas”, “so Son of Man” …
“Then I said, I-AM, cast out of thy sight … the waters compassed Me about, to My SOUL: the DEPTH closed Me round about … I went down to the bottoms of the mountains— the earth with her bars about Me FOREVER.
Yet hast Thou BROUGHT UP MY LIFE FROM CORRUPTION.”
“The children of Israel”,  “so Son of Man” …
“… entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in. … They were sore afraid … that we should die in the wilderness … because there were no graves in Egypt. …
... fear Ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD which He will shew You today … the LORD shall fight for You and YOU SHALL HOLD YOUR PEACE. … THUS THE LORD SAVED ISRAEL THAT DAY.”

Jesus SUFFERS—‘PASCHA’ “three days and three nights” of Egypt’s ninth and tenth plagues’, “the fourteenth day”, “the fifteenth day”, and “the third day”. 

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #14 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 08:18:38 »
Those who count hours, days sun down and sun rise should make good accounts, since their only motivation is in number crunching rather than looking at what is being said within the complete context of all the versus:


"I declare unto you The GOSPEL ... which I indeed RECEIVED and wherein ye also, STAND, by which also ye are SAVED ... unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
For I delivered to you THE MOST IMPORTANT ... THAT ....

1) Christ DIED for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES; and

2) THAT He was BURIED (ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES), and,

3) THAT He ROSE from the dead again THE THIRD DAY--ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES."

“The GOSPEL”!! ... “The GOSPEL wherein ye STAND, by which also ye are SAVED ... unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN”!!!

What is YOUR, "number crunching rather than looking at what is being said within the complete context of all the versus [Sic.]"?!

...  shucks ...! O my! ... o shucks! shucks!! shucks!!!

Offline rstrats

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Manna: 1
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #15 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 09:23:43 »
Jerry Shugart,

re:  "...After three days I will rise again..."

re:  "... raised up the third day..."

re:  "How can you explain that?"


Apparently "the third day"  means "after three days,"  with the word "after" being implied with the former.   

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #16 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 10:14:54 »
Apparently "the third day"  means "after three days,"  with the word "after" being implied with the former.   

That is impossible. If the "day" in question is a full day then anything happening "after" the third day takes place of the "fourth day."

On the other hand, if a partial day is in view then it can be said that after the partial part of the third day has happened then the day remains the third day.

This method of reckoning time was well understood by the Jews. For instance, at Esther 4:16 and 5:1, we read the the queen ordered a fast for three days but despite that she held a banquet on the third day. There are other places in the OT where we see the samme thing. Therefore, we can know that full, complete days were not always in view when the Jews spoke of three days and three nights.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 12:52:25 »
Absolutely so! You have explained well.

In Hosea 6:2 though, "after two days' ['meta duo hehmeras'], is literal because what happens "after two days" and "on the third day" are the same things.

I have tried to understand the things done "after two days" as happened they on, the second day, but just could not.

Hosea cannot set the semantic rule for Matthew 27:63 and Mark 8:35 where the words, ‘meta treis hehmeras’, are used idiomatically or metaphorically—meaning “on the third day” and not ‘after the third day’ like in Hosea 6:2 ‘meta duo hehmeras’ means “after two days = on the third day”—there as expressed explained—in literal terms.

In Matthew 27:63 especially, the fact the Jews requested the grave be secured “for the third day”, 'heohs tehs tritehs hehmeras', indisputably implies “after three days” did not mean literally ‘after the third day’, but “the third day” and “on the third day”, itself and as such.


http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://thelordsday.wordpress.com/books/
biblestudents@imaginet.co.za

‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’
by Gerhard Ebersöhn

« Last Edit: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 13:10:09 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Truthlady5

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Female
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 18:13:15 »
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently suggest that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?


Jesus rose on the 3rd Day, I do believe the Bible teaches this in kjv.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #19 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 00:53:45 »

Jesus rose on the 3rd Day, I do believe the Bible teaches this in kjv.

On the third day of what? On what, 'third day'?

In Matthew 27:63, the fact the Jews requested the grave be secured “for the third day” , 'heohs tehs tritehs hehmeras', indisputably implies “after three days” did not mean literally ‘after the third day’, but idiomatically “the third day” and “on the third day”, itself and as such. Yes in fact, it says, “after three days” idiom for “on the third day” as in all the other places; not literally ‘after the third day’, for that—that He would rise ‘after the third day’ on the fourth day—would be a contradiction and disclaimer of our Lord’s own words and acts in both prophecy and its fulfilment.


Offline Truthlady5

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Female
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #20 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 12:35:02 »




The important thing is, Jesus rose !!!
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 12:49:42 by Truthlady5 »

Offline Stucky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1295
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Dedit tibi Deus a facie tua natus est.

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #22 on: Tue Feb 05, 2013 - 12:55:09 »
Yes in fact, it says, “after three days” idiom for “on the third day” as in all the other places; not literally ‘after the third day’, for that—that He would rise ‘after the third day’ on the fourth day—would be a contradiction and disclaimer of our Lord’s own words and acts in both prophecy and its fulfilment.

Here we read "after three days":

"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again" (Mk.8:31).

If the "day" in question is a full day then anything happening "after" the third day takes place of the "fourth day."

But here we see that He was resurrected on the third day:

"And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again" (Mk.10:34).

If "partial days" are used in the phrase "three days and three nights" then it can be said that after the third day has happened then the day remains the third day.

This method of reckoning time was well understood by the Jews. For instance, at Esther 4:16 and 5:1, we read the the queen ordered a fast for three days but despite that she held a banquet on the third day. There are other places in the OT where we see the samme thing. Therefore, we can know that full, complete days were not always in view when the Jews spoke of three days and three nights.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #23 on: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 14:46:25 »




The important thing is, Jesus rose !!!


Sure!
Now we do not like this, that "Christ rose ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES", or, that He "rose according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY".
No, we prefer our comfort and own love-zone, and will accept only what we like or prefer, and discard the rest because it PUTS US IN AN AWKWARD SITUATION WHERE WE CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR WHAT WE ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

Would we have known about Jesus' Resurrection were it not for GOD'S WORD THE SCRIPTURES? 

We cannot be choosers; we are beggars, and if God gives us our daily bread on the plate of the Holy Scriptures but we refuse the bread because we do not like the plate the bread is served on, we insult the Giver.

It is important -- ALL-IMPORTANT -- Jesus rose from the dead. But we should not emphasise it in such a way as to therewith imply the other man for whom it is also important that Christ rose from the dead according to the Scriptures the third day, regards Jesus' Resurrection as less important. That would be hypocrisy.

FACT is the Scriptures are also, ‘all important’ for the Christian Faith. For some it is an unsavory thing even to contemplate the GIVEN FACTS the Scriptures contain and offer the believer. As if, if you care about 'detail', you are not saved or and is a knit picking Pharisee. 

But what said Paul, was most important? What said he, was most important THE WHILE HE DEFENDED AND PROCLAIMED THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL, NAMELY, THAT CHRIST HAD RAISED FROM THE DEAD AGAIN?!
THIS:
"I declare unto you The GOSPEL ... which I indeed RECEIVED and wherein ye also, STAND, by which also ye are SAVED ... unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
For I delivered to you THE MOST IMPORTANT ... THAT ....
1) Christ DIED for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES; and
2) THAT He was BURIED (ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES), and,
3) THAT He ROSE from the dead again THE THIRD DAY--ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES."

THAT is the all-important of “The GOSPEL”!! ... “The GOSPEL wherein ye STAND, by which also ye are SAVED ... unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN”!!!

The Gospel of Jesus Christ—the FULL Gospel—or no Gospel!

Or is the disparagement of the truth Christ “according to the Scriptures rose the third day” just a sign and proof of laziness in the first place to come to a fuller knowledge of the Gospel; or worse, a sign and proof of fear to get exposed and embarrassed at not being able to answer for my own WRONG AND BASELESS VIEWS AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES? 

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 14:48:35 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #24 on: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 15:09:43 »

Here we read "after three days":

"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again" (Mk.8:31).

If the "day" in question is a full day then anything happening "after" the third day takes place of the "fourth day."

But here we see that He was resurrected on the third day:

"And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again" (Mk.10:34).

If "partial days" are used in the phrase "three days and three nights" then it can be said that after the third day has happened then the day remains the third day.

This method of reckoning time was well understood by the Jews. For instance, at Esther 4:16 and 5:1, we read the the queen ordered a fast for three days but despite that she held a banquet on the third day. There are other places in the OT where we see the samme thing. Therefore, we can know that full, complete days were not always in view when the Jews spoke of three days and three nights.

This post of yours is quite different from your previous remarks on the same subject, 'reply#16'.

What you added here - to be honest - I find incomprehensible.
Why do you now also say,
"If "partial days" are used in the phrase "three days and three nights" then it can be said that after the third day has happened then the day remains the third day" ?
It is totally unnecessary and, irrelevant IMO.

I said somewhere the phrase “after three days” is a metaphor. That is wrong. It is no metaphor. I apologise for my mistake.

The phrase “after three days” IN THE TWO instances of its use in the NT, is an idiomatic way to say “on the third day”, SIMPLY. No more; nothing fancy or peculiar.

In my own language—Afrikaans—we even speak of “behind the third day’ [‘agter die derde dag’] or ‘behind whatever day’ only to mean ‘on’ that day-in-mind. There is no fuss to be made about the occurrence of the expression as indicated is something different than the usual expression, “on” or “in” or just, “the third day”.

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 23:24:59 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #25 on: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 15:49:19 »
This post of yours is quite different from your previous remarks on the same subject, 'reply#16'.

What you added here - to be honest - I find incomprehensible.

All I am saying is that the Jews counted a "part" of a day as a whole day. On my first post on this thread I said:

In his book Horae Hebraicae Dr John Lightfoot  quotes the Jewish saying, "A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole" (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century).

From the beginning that has been my argument.

Quote
The phrase “after three days” IN THE TWO instances of its use in the NT, is an idiomatic way to say “on the third day”, SIMPLY. No more; nothing fancy or peculiar.

Yes, I agree with you. Since the Jews counted any part of a day as a whole day then it can be said that when they used the phrase "after three days" they meant on the third day. The Jews certainly understood it that way. For instance, at Esther 4:16 and 5:1, we read the the queen ordered a fast for three days but despite that she held a banquet on the third day. There are other places in the OT where we see the same thing. Therefore, we can know that full, complete days were not always in view when the Jews spoke of three days and three nights.

So you are right. The language of the Jews in regard to the phrase "after three days" is an idomatic way to say "on the third day."

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #26 on: Thu Feb 07, 2013 - 23:46:32 »

All I am saying is that the Jews counted a "part" of a day as a whole day. On my first post on this thread I said:

In his book Horae Hebraicae Dr John Lightfoot  quotes the Jewish saying, "A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole" (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century).

From the beginning that has been my argument.

Thank you. You're quite correct, and the principle for counting days, is also, quite correct. And I accept it fully.

I actually go further, and I say that the EVENT or the MOMENT, determines the day (and date).

Eg. What indicates and makes fast the fact the 'day' anywhere referred to whereon Jesus died—the event and the moment of his death, "the ninth hour"—tells once for all, that day, was the fourteenth day of the First Month on the passover calendar, AS WELL AS THAT THAT DAY WAS "THE FIRST DAY THEY ALWAYS HAD TO, KILL THE PASSOVER".

Just so in any of the "three days”, “according to the Scriptures”, of "the plague [that] was upon Him".

The second of the "three days" is --must, be-- the "Bone-Day" of Christ's Passover, the day the FULL day on which Joseph finally had closed the grave and "Christ was BURIED ... ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" the fifteenth day of the First Month, “mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching”.

Therefore this, "great-day-sabbath" of passover had begun "When already it had become evening since it was The Day of Preparation WHICH IS The Fore-Sabbath" : "The Sixth Day" - of the week or 'Friday' - whereon Israel had to SAVE UP FOR THE SABBATH TWO DAYS' MANNA so that it would not corrupt, but would be SAVED INCORRUPTIBLE until resurrected from the dead "on the day AFTER the (passover's) sabbath", “on the Sabbath mid-afternoon the First Day of the week approaching”.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 00:18:18 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline John 8:32

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 689
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Male
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #27 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 08:57:41 »
This post of yours is quite different from your previous remarks on the same subject, 'reply#16'.

What you added here - to be honest - I find incomprehensible.

All I am saying is that the Jews counted a "part" of a day as a whole day. On my first post on this thread I said:

In his book Horae Hebraicae Dr John Lightfoot  quotes the Jewish saying, "A day and a night make an 'onah': and a Part of an 'onah' is as the Whole" (From the Jerusalem Talmud quoting Rabbi Eliazar ben Azariah, who lived during the first century).

From the beginning that has been my argument.

Quote
The phrase “after three days” IN THE TWO instances of its use in the NT, is an idiomatic way to say “on the third day”, SIMPLY. No more; nothing fancy or peculiar.

Yes, I agree with you. Since the Jews counted any part of a day as a whole day then it can be said that when they used the phrase "after three days" they meant on the third day. The Jews certainly understood it that way. For instance, at Esther 4:16 and 5:1, we read the the queen ordered a fast for three days but despite that she held a banquet on the third day. There are other places in the OT where we see the same thing. Therefore, we can know that full, complete days were not always in view when the Jews spoke of three days and three nights.

So you are right. The language of the Jews in regard to the phrase "after three days" is an idomatic way to say "on the third day."

Problem for me is it was not the Jews who stated what the sign would be...

Mat 12:39  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus knew how long the daylight period and the nighttime period is...

Joh 11:9  Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10  But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Here we plainly see that the daylight portion of a day is 12 hours and then there is the night.  24 hours in a day and night.

Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Mat 27:63  Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Luk 24:46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Now look at the above.  We see in three days, after three days and the third day (on the third day).  There is only one period of time that satisfies all three conditions.  72 hours.

72 hours falls within 72 hours, 72 hours falls on the 72nd hour and the 72nd hour is after they are complete.  The problem is that a Wednesday late afternoon burial and a Sabbath late afternoon resurrection does not fit in the "traditions" of churches even though it is scriptural.

Christ was crucified on a Wednesday, buried right about sunset that evening and resurrected Sabbath afternoon right about sunset.

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #28 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 09:45:19 »
Eg. What indicates and makes fast the fact the 'day' anywhere referred to whereon Jesus died—the event and the moment of his death, "the ninth hour"—tells once for all, that day, was the fourteenth day of the First Month on the passover calendar, AS WELL AS THAT THAT DAY WAS "THE FIRST DAY THEY ALWAYS HAD TO, KILL THE PASSOVER".

I have a problem with that because I believe that our Lord and Savior was crucified on the 15th. I believe that the morning after the Passover meal of the 14th began a new day.

Can we can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 18:44:57 by Jerry Shugart »

Offline John 8:32

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 689
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Male
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #29 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 10:26:40 »
Eg. What indicates and makes fast the fact the 'day' anywhere referred to whereon Jesus died—the event and the moment of his death, "the ninth hour"—tells once for all, that day, was the fourteenth day of the First Month on the passover calendar, AS WELL AS THAT THAT DAY WAS "THE FIRST DAY THEY ALWAYS HAD TO, KILL THE PASSOVER".

I have a problem with that because I believe that our Lord and Savior was crucified on the 15th. I believe that the morning after the Passover meal of the 14th began a new day.

Can we can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.

Joh 19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

From Bullinger's...

an high day. It was the first day of the Feast, the 15th Nisan. See Lev_23:6, Lev_23:7. Our Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset. See App-156.

It is not really difficult to find out that Nisan 14, 31AD was on a Wednesday (observed from the sunset of the evening before, to the sunset of that day).

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #30 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 12:24:57 »
I have a problem with that because I believe that our Lord and Savior was crucified on the 15th. I believe that the morning after the Passover meal of the 14th began a new day.


“Our Passover” Jesus Christ

Passover killed:
Exodus 12:
6 “Keep it until the fourteenth day [15 “the head-first day ye shall put away leaven] and … kill the passover in the late, mid-afternoon.” [‘ereb’, archaic English ‘evening’]
Deuteronomy 16:
4 “The flesh which thou sacrificedst the first day late, mid-afternoon … 6 at the going down of the sun.”
Leviticus 23:
5 “Late, mid-afternoon [‘ereb’, archaic English ‘evening’] in the fourteenth day [7 “In the first day”] (kill) the passover.”
Joshua 5:
10 “Kept (killed) the passover on the fourteenth day.”

Passover eaten:
Exodus 12:
7 “They shall eat the flesh in that night with unleavened bread … 17 observe unleavened bread in this Bone-day I have brought you out.”
Numbers 33:
3 “They departed on the fifteenth day ON THE DAY AFTER THE PASSOVER [was killed].”
Deuteronomy 16:
3 “Eat unleavened bread … the day that thou camest forth out.”
Leviticus 23:
6 “On the fifteenth day is the Feast of unleavened bread … 14 the Bone-day.”
Joshua 5:
11 “They did eat unleavened cakes on the next day [‘mochorath’] in the Bone-day.”

“… the morning” does not ‘begin’ “a new day”; sunset and night after sunset is the first halve of any ‘day’ of night first then day last.
You don’t distinguish the DATING found in Exodus 12:1-14 which DIFFERS with all the rest of the Scriptures.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 12:28:12 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #31 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 12:40:12 »

 

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.

The Bible day does not begin or end “in the evening”; it begins when “evening” begins, which is sunset. Sunset begins the evening  simultaneously as it begins the new day; and sunset simultaneously ends the past day after its late afternoon. Late afternoon starts “mid-afternoon”; and ‘afternoon’ starts noon. Late afternoon after “mid-afternoon” begins “the ninth hour” = 3 p.m. “by the time the Jews’ preparations” start. John 19:42, cf. Luke 23:56a.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1560
  • Manna: 13
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #32 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 12:56:15 »
Here we plainly see that the daylight portion of a day is 12 hours and then there is the night.  24 hours in a day and night.
GE:
Here just as plainly we can see ‘that the daylight portion of a day is 12 hours AFTER there WAS the night :  24 hours in a day and night’

Offline John 8:32

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 689
  • Manna: 22
  • Gender: Male
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #33 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 13:45:34 »
Here we plainly see that the daylight portion of a day is 12 hours and then there is the night.  24 hours in a day and night.
GE:
Here just as plainly we can see ‘that the daylight portion of a day is 12 hours AFTER there WAS the night :  24 hours in a day and night’

Exactly, and I did not state it correctly.  The day begins at sunset and the night portion (~12 hours) and the day portion (~12 hours) is one day...

Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

One can call midnight the beginning of the day or sunrise the beginning of the day or 3:00pm the beginning of the day, it makes no difference.  The Creator of days says that the day begins at sunset and that is when the day really begins.  What we call it is meaningless, what God says is fact and truth.

Offline Jerry Shugart

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
  • Manna: 10
Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #34 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 18:42:08 »
From Bullinger's

an high day. It was the first day of the Feast, the 15th Nisan. See Lev_23:6, Lev_23:7. Our Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset. See App-156.

From Bullinger's:

"THE DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER--THE 14th DAY OF NISAN..."


The 14th day of Nisan was not the day BEFORE the Passover:

These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover"
(Lev.23:4-6).

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

The 14th was not the day BEFORE the Passover but instead the Passover was on the 14th.

On "the high day" Sir Robert Ansderson wrote:

"But yet another statement of St. John is quoted in this controversy. "That Sabbath day was an high day," he declares, and therefore, it is urged, it must have been the 15th of Nisan. The force of this "therefore" partly depends upon overlooking the fact that all the great sacrifices to which the 15th of Nisan largely owed its distinctive solemnity, were repeated daily throughout the festival (Numbers 28:19-24). On this account alone that Sabbath was 'an high day.' "
(Anderson, The Coming Prince [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1957], 113).

 

     
anything