Author Topic: Matthew 12:40  (Read 9553 times)

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Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #35 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 18:55:29 »

“… the morning” does not ‘begin’ “a new day”; sunset and night after sunset is the first halve of any ‘day’ of night first then day last.
You don’t distinguish the DATING found in Exodus 12:1-14 which DIFFERS with all the rest of the Scriptures.

Gerhard, if what you say is true then why did you not address what I said here?:

We can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.

How do you explain that?

Thanks!

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #35 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 18:55:29 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #36 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 23:30:21 »
Can we can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

Just the opposite, I am afraid, due to the Demonstrative Pronoun that stands for something ELSE than the ongoing time, ‘demonstrating’ or pointing to or referring AWAY from itself to “THAT”, OTHER, day than the present day—the present time BEING EVENING” and “THAT OTHER DAY” ”—the Dative being used, “WITH REGARD TO / BEARING on the First Day of the week”.

You repeat, therefore I must also repeat, that
“that day on the First Day of the week” did not “arrive”; it is being referred BACK to with “that day on the First Day of the week”, because it was over and past. Its ‘arrival’ would have been sunset after the Sabbath and the following ‘Saturday night’.

A day when its 12 hours of daylight are through, no longer “remains”.

You also repeat,
"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week”, so I’ll also repeat that there is nowhere anything like it said, rather the contrary, “THAT day” referring to another, past and gone, day.
Also, that there is nowhere anything said like “being the first day”, rather the contrary, “being the evening” after, “on the First Day-referred-to”.

Therefore, sorry, but “If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening”, then – surely – “being evening” after “THAT-referred-to First Day of the week”, began the next day on which the ongoing events happened.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 23:58:36 »
From Bullinger's

an high day. It was the first day of the Feast, the 15th Nisan. See Lev_23:6, Lev_23:7. Our Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset. See App-156.

From Bullinger's:

"THE DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER--THE 14th DAY OF NISAN..."


The 14th day of Nisan was not the day BEFORE the Passover:

These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover"
(Lev.23:4-6).

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).

The 14th was not the day BEFORE the Passover but instead the Passover was on the 14th.

On "the high day" Sir Robert Ansderson wrote:

"But yet another statement of St. John is quoted in this controversy. "That Sabbath day was an high day," he declares, and therefore, it is urged, it must have been the 15th of Nisan. The force of this "therefore" partly depends upon overlooking the fact that all the great sacrifices to which the 15th of Nisan largely owed its distinctive solemnity, were repeated daily throughout the festival (Numbers 28:19-24). On this account alone that Sabbath was 'an high day.' "
(Anderson, The Coming Prince [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1957], 113).


This post was necessary! It illustrates the most basic misunderstanding with regard to the chronology of the passover’s first “three days”.

It is not differentiated between the “first day they KILLED the passover” AND “REMOVED leaven”—Abib 14, and “the first day no leaven shall be EATEN” on—Abib 15.

Jesus’ body was not buried ‘before sunset the same day’. THAT IS THE COMMON ERROR!
Joseph BEGAN to undertake “TO BURY” the body of Jesus “WHEN ALREADY IT HAD BECOME EVENING” and Abib 15 had had started already IT, “being The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath”, IN FACT, the Sixth Day of the week;
…and …
FINISHED “to bury”, “THAT DAY The Preparation mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching”, ‘Friday, 3 p.m.’.


Sir Robert Anderson places “all the great sacrifices” including the passover lamb, on “the 15th of Nisan”. No! Our Passover was sacrifice the day before “on the fourteenth day of the First Month”  having been crucified “the third hour” and having expired his last breath “the ninth hour”. Then “EVERYBODY FORSOOK” Him and He hung forlorn on the cross till “after these things the Jews asked Pilate” AFTER “it had had become evening ALREADY” [‘ehdeh’].

Jesus “Bone-day” is being destroyed, sacrificed, reduced to nothing—nothing than a few minutes at most before sunset OF THE FIRST DAY THEY HAD TO ALWAYS KILL THE PASSOVER ON”! Abib 15 is identified with Abib 14. “Three days” are manipulated into two days.

« Last Edit: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:03:27 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #37 on: Fri Feb 08, 2013 - 23:58:36 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #38 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:14:46 »
Leaven removed and the passover lamb killed foreshadowed Jesus' Death.

Unleavened bread and flesh eaten foreshadowed Jesus' Burial.

First sheaf waved foreshadowed Jesus' Resurrection.

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #38 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:14:46 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #39 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:24:43 »

We can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"

We do NOT “see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"”.

I have not been trying to “explain” that; I have denied and refuted the idea that “we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"”.

Kindly address my rebuttal of your at best ambiguous viewpoint.

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #39 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:24:43 »



Offline Stucky

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #40 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:28:19 »

We can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"

We do NOT “see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"”.

I have not been trying to “explain” that; I have denied and refuted the idea that “we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week"”.

Kindly address my rebuttal of your at best ambiguous viewpoint.

Gerhard?  When you make your point, why do you have to make a sarcastic remark after it?  Is that the way you debate where you live?  By being insulting?

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #40 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:28:19 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #41 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:38:42 »
Gerhard?  When you make your point, why do you have to make a sarcastic remark after it?  Is that the way you debate where you live?  By being insulting?

You are quick to take offense!

Where is the 'offense'?

And who was the 'offended'?

But, brother, I believe the Sabbath because Jesus Christ rose on it from the dead, and that it must therefore be a day of joyful feast.

So I won't take offense ---no offense intended.

"Remember the Sabbath Day BECAUSE GOD ON IT RESTED" in Jesus Christ "when God raised Him from the dead by the exceeding greatness of his mighty power which He WORKED ..." "... and God from all his works, RESTED."

Make great the Name of the Lord!



Offline Stucky

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #42 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 00:54:04 »
Gerhard?  When you make your point, why do you have to make a sarcastic remark after it?  Is that the way you debate where you live?  By being insulting?

You are quick to take offense!

Where is the 'offense'?

And who was the 'offended'?

But, brother, I believe the Sabbath because Jesus Christ rose on it from the dead, and that it must therefore be a day of joyful feast.

So I won't take offense ---no offense intended.

"Remember the Sabbath Day BECAUSE GOD ON IT RESTED" in Jesus Christ "when God raised Him from the dead by the exceeding greatness of his mighty power which He WORKED ..." "... and God from all his works, RESTED."

Make great the Name of the Lord!

Gerhard Ebersohn said "Kindly address my rebuttal of your at best ambiguous viewpoint."  Couldnt you have just said "Kindly address my rebuttal"?  Why add a snide comment?

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #43 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 14:21:14 »
Just the opposite, I am afraid, due to the Demonstrative Pronoun that stands for something ELSE than the ongoing time, ‘demonstrating’ or pointing to or referring AWAY from itself to “THAT”, OTHER, day than the present day—the present time BEING EVENING” and “THAT OTHER DAY” ”—the Dative being used, “WITH REGARD TO / BEARING on the First Day of the week”.

I can find no translators of the Bible who translate the verse the way you say it should be translated. These agree with the KJV of the Bible:

"So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, Peace be with you" (NASB).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, Peace be with you:"
(RSV).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you'" (ESV).

"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' " (NIV).

These are just a few of the verses which give the same meaning of the King James version. I really want to understand what you are saying so please either quote a translation of the verse which expresses your idea as to its meaning or show me exactly how the verse should be translated. Thanks!

Quote
It is not differentiated between the “first day they KILLED the passover” AND “REMOVED leaven”—Abib 14, and “the first day no leaven shall be EATEN” on—Abib 15.

The first day when unleavened bread was eaten with their meals was the 14th, and not the 15th:

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even" (Ex.12:18).

This was the passover meal that was eaten on the 14th day:

"And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it" (Ex.12:8).

There can be doubt that the passover was on the 14th day of the month so the fist day of unleavened bread was also on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 18:22:51 by Jerry Shugart »

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #43 on: Sat Feb 09, 2013 - 14:21:14 »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #44 on: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 15:18:44 »

The first day when unleavened bread was eaten with their meals was the 14th, and not the 15th:

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even" (Ex.12:18).

This was the passover meal that was eaten on the 14th day:

"And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it" (Ex.12:8).

There can be doubt that the passover was on the 14th day of the month so the fist day of unleavened bread was also on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).


Yes; correct!

I have never denied it, but emphasised the fact of the DIFFERENCE between Exodus 12:1-14 -- and partially or not absolutely, verse 18.

Because Exodus 12 played off WITHIN EGYPT with its sunrise regard of days.

Now you will see for yourself that Exodus 12 covers TWO nights and TWO daylight days as happened everything that happened on those TWO days on the ONE DATE of "the fourteenth day of the First Month".

Those two days became dated the fourteenth AND "the fifteenth day of the First Month", ever after Exodus 12:14 (and 18 “at even on 14” until “at even on 21” gives 8 days unleavened bread while “seven days unleavened bread” had to be eaten).

All the Scriptures subsequent (some given above) confirm TWO days of the fourteenth and fifteenth of the First Month for RESPECTIVELY to KILL the passover and to EAT the passover.

Now either people do not SEE this difference, or, they in VAIN try to explain it away as exists the difference not.

The difference is NO CONTRADICTION. The difference is of prophetic significance with regard to Jesus Christ and the LAST ever passover when JESUS CHRIST, ONCE FOR ALL AGAIN, would BE the Passover in EVERY respect of BOTH being KILLED, AND, EATEN, on the fourteenth day of the First Month, at the same time fulfilling ALSO the original TWO days that included the "BONE-day" of the passover on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month. Christ fulfilled the fifteenth day in that He was BURIED on the "great day sabbath ...  The Preparation  (which is the Fore-Sabbath)" John 19:31 (Mark 15:42), "THIS THAT FIRST NIGHT" of "that SELFSAME-BONE-day" John 19:39 Exodus 12:17,42,51.


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #45 on: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 17:52:19 »
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even" (Ex.12:18).

This was the passover meal that was eaten on the 14th day:

"And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it" (Ex.12:8).

There can be doubt that the passover was on the 14th day of the month so the fist day of unleavened bread was also on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).


How to resolve the difficulty with the accepted translation of Exodus 12:18 …

It is obvious Exodus 12 covers TWO nights and TWO daylight days as happened everything that happened on those TWO days on the ONE DATE of "the fourteenth day of the First Month".

Verse 6,
“On the fourteenth day ye shall KILL (your lamb) late in the mid-afternoon.”

Verse 14
“THIS day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shal keep it a FEAST to the LORD.”
This is the ONLY time in all Scripture that the fourteenth day is called a “Feast”. “On the fourteenth day ye shall kill the passover late in the mid-afternoon.” The KILL of the passover is called a “FEAST”. This is the first, the last and the only instance a Scripture states the kill of the passover on the fourteenth day, a FEAST.

“And they shall EAT the flesh in THAT NIGHT WITH unleavened bread”—before the “morning” because next “morning, ye shall let nothing of it remain.” Verse 14, “This day”—“day”-time of the “kill” then “night”-time of the “feast” [eat]—“ye shall keep a feast.”

Verse 9,
“Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses”.
Verse 15,
“Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread [as follows]:
The very first day [the fourteenth day] ye shall PUT AWAY leaven out of your houses.
For whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul must be cut off from Israel.”

Verse 17,
“Ye shall observe unleavened bread in this selfsame Bone-day I have brought your armies out … Therefore shall ye  observe THIS day …
Verse 18a,
“… on the fourteenth day of the month late, mid-afternoon [‘ereb’].”
Here the pericope STOPS.

A NEW pericope starts,
Verse 18b,
“Ye shall eat unleavened bread until the one and twentieth day of the month late after sunrise in the night”—‘ereb’.

Note translation of ‘ereb’ with the meaning “late in the mid-afternoon” for the KILL;
but with the meaning “late after sunrise in the night” before the “morning”, verse 10, for the “FEAST” or “EAT” of unleavened bread.

Ever after Exodus 12:14 and 18 the two days and two nights originally dated “fourteenth”, became dated two days, “fourteenth” and "fifteenth of the First Month".

Therefore is it illegitimate to only mention “Num.28:16” but not verse 17 also!
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 18:07:31 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #46 on: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 18:42:43 »
All the Scriptures subsequent (some given above) confirm TWO days of the fourteenth and fifteenth of the First Month for RESPECTIVELY to KILL the passover and to EAT the passover.

Gerhard, of course that idea is based on the idea that the Jewish day began in the evening in the first century. However, I said the following earlier:

We can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.

To this you said:

Quote
Just the opposite, I am afraid, due to the Demonstrative Pronoun that stands for something ELSE than the ongoing time, ‘demonstrating’ or pointing to or referring AWAY from itself to “THAT”, OTHER, day than the present day—the present time BEING EVENING” and “THAT OTHER DAY” ”—the Dative being used, “WITH REGARD TO / BEARING on the First Day of the week”.

Then I said:

I can find no translators of the Bible who translate the verse the way you say it should be translated. These agree with the KJV of the Bible:

"So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, Peace be with you" (NASB).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, Peace be with you:"
(RSV).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you'" (ESV).

"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' " (NIV).

These are just a few of the verses which give the same meaning of the King James version. I really want to understand what you are saying so please either quote a translation of the verse which expresses your idea as to its meaning or show me exactly how the verse should be translated.

With that said, for us to get to the bottom of this we must understand exactly what is being said at John 20:19. The translations which I provided support my view so please either quote a translation of the verse which expresses your idea as to its meaning or show me exactly how the verse should be translated.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 10, 2013 - 18:46:14 by Jerry Shugart »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #47 on: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 00:28:30 »
As the LORD led Israel “forth out of the land of Egypt”, the Egyptian ‘day’, was left behind—the old “fourteenth day” passed by— the old “fourteenth day” on which Israel in fact had eaten “the flesh” of the passover “lamb”, “with UNLEAVENED bread in its ‘ereb’”—“late after sunset day”.

Therefore “THAT SELFSAME-BONE-DAY”, the past, “fourteenth day”, had become “the fifteenth day” IN the LORD’S REDEMPTION—although the LORD’S yet not completed redemption.

Now, as the LORD led and carried Israel “FORTH OUT”, the Israelites while the sun rose in the morning, found themselves BETWEEN DEATH AND LIFE and in the middle of the new day from sunset to sunset. They found themselves in the middle of the “DAY OF THE LORD” and JUDGMENT, “on the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
ALL subsequent Scriptures will mean or in so many words will declare, “Then in the FIFTEENTH day of this month is FEAST”, because “they DEPARTED from Rameses on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month ON THE MORNING AFTER THE PASSOVER." Numbers 28:17; 33:3.

The Salvation of the LORD is the ONLY solution to overcoming the seeming discrepancy in the date of the actual first passover that resulted in the FEAST of Unleavened Bread being MOVED AWAY from Exodus 12:14 onto “this SELFSAME BONE-day” in Exodus 17, 42, 51, “the fifteenth day of the First Month”.

Give me another, a better, explanation?
I shall take note of it only if the “SALVATION OF THE LORD IS” of the essence of it!
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 00:31:15 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #48 on: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 01:13:51 »
All the Scriptures subsequent (some given above) confirm TWO days of the fourteenth and fifteenth of the First Month for RESPECTIVELY to KILL the passover and to EAT the passover.

Gerhard, of course that idea is based on the idea that the Jewish day began in the evening in the first century. However, I said the following earlier:

We can know that the first day of the week did not begin in the evening because we see that when the evening of that day arrived the day remained the "first day of the week":

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you" (Jn.20:19).

If "the first day of the week" began the previous evening then that same day would have ended in the evening. But it did not.

To this you said:

Quote
Just the opposite, I am afraid, due to the Demonstrative Pronoun that stands for something ELSE than the ongoing time, ‘demonstrating’ or pointing to or referring AWAY from itself to “THAT”, OTHER, day than the present day—the present time BEING EVENING” and “THAT OTHER DAY” ”—the Dative being used, “WITH REGARD TO / BEARING on the First Day of the week”.

Then I said:

I can find no translators of the Bible who translate the verse the way you say it should be translated. These agree with the KJV of the Bible:

"So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, Peace be with you" (NASB).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, Peace be with you:"
(RSV).

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you'" (ESV).

"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' " (NIV).

These are just a few of the verses which give the same meaning of the King James version. I really want to understand what you are saying so please either quote a translation of the verse which expresses your idea as to its meaning or show me exactly how the verse should be translated.

With that said, for us to get to the bottom of this we must understand exactly what is being said at John 20:19. The translations which I provided support my view so please either quote a translation of the verse which expresses your idea as to its meaning or show me exactly how the verse should be translated.

Thanks!


Dear Jerry Shugart, with all due respect to YOU, all translations are wrong, that say like your examples.
In the ORIGINAL, it states 1) "being Evening" - not 'being the First Day'; and 2) "WITH REGARD TO THAT [other] DAY REFERRED TO (on) the First Day of the week".
I do not want to repeat further, again. Please only pay attention to the FACTS of the case.

Then, about the MOTIVES of the ‘translators’ to have rendered as they did. God will be the Judge of that; I just asked some questions regarding the history behind the motives. All I can say, is, I do NOT accept or trust the ‘translators’’ incentives or its results.

By the way, you cannot speak of “a few of the verses”. The quotes were all of the one verse.

So yes, unfortunately I cannot “quote a translation of the verse which expresses (my) idea as to its meaning”, but I can most certainly “show exactly how the verse should be translated”—which I did, having done so at the hand of the Greek itself.
Better than that, I cannot do.

Maybe though it might help if I draw your attention to Luke 24:1 “deepest morning of night”—just after midnight—“ON the First Day of the week”, Mark 16:2 “very early before sunrise ON the First Day of the week", John 20:1 “being early of dark still ON the First Day of the week” showing indisputably it was “ON the First Day of the week”, LONG BEFORE sun had risen “ON the First Day of the week”. Therefore it is undeniable “On the First Day” was from after sunset, all the night, and still after sunrise.

The day does NOT begin sunrise OR extend after sunset in Bible terms and world-view; it ends with sunset and it begins with sunset.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 01:32:36 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #49 on: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 01:29:34 »
The Reverend Dr Alfred Marshall translates the Nestle Greek Text in John 20:19 literally,

"Being therefore early evening day on that the one first of the week"

Canon J. B. Phillips

No one gets higher authority.

I make use of it in 'my' translation and explanation of John 20:19.






Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #50 on: Mon Feb 11, 2013 - 10:29:36 »
The Reverend Dr Alfred Marshall translates the Nestle Greek Text in John 20:19 literally,

"Being therefore early evening day on that the one first of the week"

Canon J. B. Phillips

No one gets higher authority.

I make use of it in 'my' translation and explanation of John 20:19.

That is exactly what the other passages are saying. He places the "evening" of the first day of the week as belonging to that same first day of the week:

"Being therefore early evening day on that the one first of the week."

Here the "evening" is tied to the one described as "first of the week."

If the day changed in the evening then the evening would be tied to the "second of the week" but it is not. It is clearly tied to the "first of the week."

Therefore the day changed at dawn, at the rising of the sun. The following verse says that:

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre" (Mt.28:1).

The following passage describes the same thing:

"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun" (Mk.16:1-2).


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #51 on: Wed Feb 13, 2013 - 12:49:04 »

Here the "evening" is tied to the one described as "first of the week."

Sorry; you OMIT the Demonstrative Pronoun, 'ekeinehi' - 'on' / or 'with regard to _THAT_ First Day of the week’.

Here,  "is the evening". It REFERS TO, there. There, is the one described or referred to, as "(on) THAT First Day of the week."
It is not 'that evening is the First Day'; it is "the evening with regard to  THAT First Day of the week".

A Pronoun - 'that' - stands in the place of something it 'demonstrates' or 'POINTS TO' away from itself. Therefore "being EVENING POINTING TO the First Day of the week" is AFTER the First Day of the week pointed to; “being evening” is not the First Day of the week going on.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 26, 2013 - 15:29:10 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #52 on: Wed Feb 13, 2013 - 13:43:19 »
Therefore the day changed at dawn, at the rising of the sun. The following verse says that:

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre" (Mt.28:1).

In the end or ending of the Sabbath is in the Sabbath and on the Sabbath; not after the Sabbath. The Greek is literally "Sabbath's-time", Genitive of kind or quality. "Late ON the Sabbath", Revised Version.
Had it been ‘after the Sabbath’ the Accusative would have been used instead.

"Late on the Sabbath" or "in the end(ing) of the Sabbath" is "as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week ON the Sabbath".

1) "in the end of the Sabbath" is "late on the Sabbath".
2) "in the end of the Sabbath” or "late on the Sabbath” is Sabbath's-time" in either case.
3) “in the end of the Sabbath Sabbath's-time” is "as it began to dawn towards the First Day" or "…before the First Day" or "…the First Day approaching".
4) "in the end of the Sabbath Sabbath's-time as it began to dawn towards the First Day" is “in the very mid-inclining daylight / mid-afternoon of the Sabbath". 
 
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 13, 2013 - 13:47:41 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #53 on: Wed Feb 13, 2013 - 14:03:46 »
"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun" (Mk.16:1-2).


Verses 1 and 2 clearly speak of different actions, different modes of action, different purposes, different locations, different persons, different times ---different from each other but also different from any other passage in any Gospel.
Mark 16 1 as well as Mark 16:2 do not tell the same story as Matthew 28:1.





« Last Edit: Wed Feb 13, 2013 - 17:38:12 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #54 on: Sat Mar 23, 2013 - 16:48:31 »
Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of  nights.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #55 on: Sat Apr 02, 2016 - 06:26:29 »

With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights if He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #56 on: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 00:17:14 »
RStrats:

<<<Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2016, 05:26:29 AM »
<<<With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights if He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.>>>

First) How can it be <<the new year upon us ... on: April 02, 2016>>?

Never mind.

Next) Re: <<the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights if He knew that it would only be for 2 nights.>>

It is not true that <<the Messiah knew that it would only be for 2 nights>>.

That is your spin based in your idea what the meaning of "...in the heart of the earth" is; which according to your abuse of this Scripture here, is, clearly, IN THE GRAVE.

Three) It is also your baseless and false presupposition that in this verse, <<...Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights...>>
Jesus spoke and Matthew used no idiomatic language, and you know it, because idiomatic language would -- AS YOU SAY YOURSELF -- be <<common>>. But you know that you are looking for a needle in a haystack or beef sausage in a kennel.











 
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 00:28:53 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #57 on: Wed Dec 21, 2016 - 07:09:01 »
Gerhard Ebersöhn,
re: "...you know that you are looking for a needle in a haystack..."


That certainly seems to be the case so far.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #58 on: Tue Mar 21, 2017 - 17:00:19 »
Someone new looking in may know of examples.

Offline Glorious

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #59 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 03:28:37 »
For three days/generations, the Son of man will abide in the earth/world of darkness (night) preaching the promises and the hope of eternal and everlasting life:

  • the day/generation/age of giving the promise of all things  to a world in darkness (night)

  • the day/generation/age of administering the hope of eternal life to a world in darkness (night)

  • the day/generation/age of administering the hope of everlasting life  to a world in darkness (night)

After those three days/generations comes the day/generation of judgments in the light.

Matthew 12:40 is not about how many days or nights that He stays in the grave.

Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #60 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 06:51:27 »
Glorious,
re:  "Matthew 12:40 is not about how many days or nights that He stays in the grave."

That's an issue for another topic. 

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #61 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 15:22:15 »
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently suggest that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

You most likely will not find that documentation unless you take a Jewish study course on the subject matter. People don't usually write about what is common knowledge, like counting part of a day as a whole day.

It was so common in Jesus' day that Matthew and the other gospel writers simply wrote it in the understanding that their original audience well understood it. The argument is pretty much settled for those who understand Jewish feasts and the timeline beginning with the night that Jesus sat down and ate the Passover meal with His disciples - there were two Sabbaths that week, one right after the other, the yearly and the weekly. The yearly sabbath was what is called in the accounts as "the high sabbath" or "the high day," and taking the events from there, Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was buried the same day...was in the grave all day Saturday, and rose the third day in the morning (and Sunday began at sunset Saturday night).

Three days, just like He said.

To me, when someone questions how many days He was dead, even after He Himself clearly tells us...


Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #62 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 15:49:17 »
SwordMaster,
re:  "You most likely will not find that documentation unless you take a Jewish study course on the subject matter. People don't usually write about what is common knowledge, like counting part of a day as a whole day."

That's OK because that's not what I'm asking.  The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".  However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy, some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language.  I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. If it was common, there ought to be examples in order to legitimately make that assertion.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 15:52:24 by rstrats »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #63 on: Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 23:25:20 »
SwordMaster,
re:  "You most likely will not find that documentation unless you take a Jewish study course on the subject matter. People don't usually write about what is common knowledge, like counting part of a day as a whole day."

That's OK because that's not what I'm asking.  The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".  However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy, some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language.  I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. If it was common, there ought to be examples in order to legitimately make that assertion.


I see...I am of no help to you there.

Sorry.

Blessings!


Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #64 on: Thu Mar 23, 2017 - 15:47:48 »
Swordmaster~~It was so common in Jesus' day that Matthew and the other gospel writers simply wrote it in the understanding that their original audience well understood it. The argument is pretty much settled for those who understand Jewish feasts and the timeline beginning with the night that Jesus sat down and ate the Passover meal with His disciples - there were two Sabbaths that week, one right after the other, the yearly and the weekly. The yearly sabbath was what is called in the accounts as "the high sabbath" or "the high day," and taking the events from there, Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was buried the same day...was in the grave all day Saturday, and rose the third day in the morning (and Sunday began at sunset Saturday night).

Three days, just like He said.

To me, when someone questions how many days He was dead, even after He Himself clearly tells us.~~Swordmaster


<<just like He said>>?

Jesus did not say, <<the third day in the morning>>.

And the Scriptures nowhere say, <<Jesus died … and was buried the same day>>.
On the contrary, John – in fact the four Gospels Jn19:31 Lk23:50 Mk15:42 Mt 27:57 – make it clear the body of the crucified dead must, as commanded in the Law Dt21:23 Js10:26,27, be removed after sunset when the next day had begun, and “must not stay on the tree ALL, night”, but must “before sunrise be removed and that same day (after sunrise) must be buried.”

Your mistake, like everybody else’s, is that you place death and burial on the one day, the first of the “three days”. But the “three days” were as in 1Corinthians 15:3,4, “according to the Scriptures”, “first…when Christ died; next, when He was buried; next, the third day when He rose again according to the Scriptures.”


Offline SwordMaster

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #65 on: Fri Mar 24, 2017 - 13:34:55 »
Gerhard Ebersöhn said...

Quote
Quote
Swordmaster~~It was so common in Jesus' day that Matthew and the other gospel writers simply wrote it in the understanding that their original audience well understood it. The argument is pretty much settled for those who understand Jewish feasts and the timeline beginning with the night that Jesus sat down and ate the Passover meal with His disciples - there were two Sabbaths that week, one right after the other, the yearly and the weekly. The yearly sabbath was what is called in the accounts as "the high sabbath" or "the high day," and taking the events from there, Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was buried the same day...was in the grave all day Saturday, and rose the third day in the morning (and Sunday began at sunset Saturday night).

Three days, just like He said.

To me, when someone questions how many days He was dead, even after He Himself clearly tells us.~~Swordmaster


<<just like He said>>?

Jesus did not say, <<the third day in the morning>>.

You are taking things a little too verbatim, GE. I didn't say that Jesus said, "the third day in the morning." Does my words look like a quote to you?

Quote
And the Scriptures nowhere say, <<Jesus died … and was buried the same day>>.

On the contrary, John – in fact the four Gospels Jn19:31 Lk23:50 Mk15:42 Mt 27:57 – make it clear the body of the crucified dead must, as commanded in the Law Dt21:23 Js10:26,27, be removed after sunset when the next day had begun, and “must not stay on the tree ALL, night”, but must “before sunrise be removed and that same day (after sunrise) must be buried.”

Your mistake, like everybody else’s, is that you place death and burial on the one day, the first of the “three days”. But the “three days” were as in 1Corinthians 15:3,4, “according to the Scriptures”, “first…when Christ died; next, when He was buried; next, the third day when He rose again according to the Scriptures.”


I think you fail to understand the question involved here...it doesn't really matter when He was buried, the question has to do with how many days He was dead. That is the focus of the question.

Technically, you are correct: Jesus was arrested at Thursday night after sunset, meaning according to the Jewish calendar, Friday morning.

All that night practically He was questioned, by the Sanhedrin, and "When morning came" (Mat. 27:1) He was taken before Pilot - that's Friday morning after the sun had risen.

Jesus was crucified "on the third hour" Jewish time, 9 AM our time...and died on "the ninth hour" Jewish time, 3 PM our time...Friday...the same day.

The Sabbath began at sunset on Friday night, most scholars agree that at that time of the year, it would have been around 6 pm our time, and like you said, and the NT Scriptures support, the Jews wanted His body down before the Sabbath began. So Pilot allowed Joseph of Aramathea to take His body and bury it...before sunset Friday night. Joseph had three hours (from 3 pm to 6 pm) to take Jesus' body off the cross and place Him in his own tomb, I am sure that he managed it, particularly since the Scriptures tell us so.

Therefore, He was dead Friday, all day Saturday, and "after the sabbath, in the morning" which was Sunday morning, the first day of the week, after the sun had risen, He resurrected.

3 days according to the Jewish calendar.

Again, it doesn't matter when He was buried, really, because the question was concerning how many days He was dead...and according do the Jewish calendar, the answer to that question is 3 days.






Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #66 on: Tue Apr 11, 2017 - 06:12:18 »
Since it's crucifixion week, perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #67 on: Sat Jun 24, 2017 - 04:31:09 »
<<You are taking things a little too verbatim, GE. I didn't say that Jesus said, "the third day in the morning." Does my words look like a quote to you?>>

I'm not taking anything more <verbatim> than what you posted it! You did say, here, <<Jesus died on Friday afternoon and was buried the same day...was in the grave all day Saturday, and rose the third day in the morning (and Sunday began at sunset Saturday night).>> And I never said <<that Jesus said, "the third day in the morning">>. You twist everything! Shame on you!

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #68 on: Sat Jun 24, 2017 - 04:47:54 »
SM:
<<Technically, you are correct: Jesus was arrested at Thursday night after sunset, meaning according to the Jewish calendar, Friday morning.>>

GE:
Don't argue with me about things I never said!! Show where I wrote this! You cannot. You don't care what another thinks; it is only what you almighty sword master has to say, with blunt, split and floppy sword of tongue! NOT ONE WORD IS CORRECT here. Aren't you ashamed of yourself? What nonsensical sound polution. Save the planet!


Offline rstrats

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Re: Matthew 12:40
« Reply #69 on: Sat Jun 24, 2017 - 05:15:22 »
Someone new looking in may know of examples.

 

     
anything