Author Topic: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke  (Read 3147 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 03:27:06 »
Red-What you are missing is that God made a PHYSICAL PROMISE OF LAND to Abraham. God's promise HAS NOT CHANGED. THAT LAND still BELONGS TO ISRAEL.
Fish~do you truly believe I have not many years ago considered this and many other scriptures that folks use to say that physical Israel is God's chosen people and the land IS the land of promise? Let us briefly consider a few things once more~I believe we just went through some of these recently, nevertheless, once more very quickly to destroy this Jewish fable of some future restoration of Jewish preeminence, so as to heed Paul's warning by.......
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Titus 1:14~"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
After Creation, for 6,500 years only Abel, Enoch, Seth, Enos, and Noah are described favorably.

Then some 2000 to 2500 years later God chose and called Abram when living in Mesopotamia (Genesis 11:27-32; 12:1-5; Acts 7:2-4). God revealed Himself to Abraham personally (Genesis 12:7; 15:12-17; 17:1; 18:1-33). God made covenants with Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3,7; 13:14-17; 15:5,18-21; 22:15-18). From Abraham came Isaac, Jacob, twelve great-grandsons, and the substantial nation of Israel.

From the twelve grandsons came Moses to whom the Lord revealed Himself (Exodus 3:14; 6:2-3). We know God gave His glorious word or commandments to Israel (Deuteronomy 4:5-8; Romans 3:1-2). It was this nation that God chose and loved above all other peoples (Amos 3:2; Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

For another 2000 years God gave them judges, kings, and prophets in loving His nation. God made promises to Abraham and Israel as part of His covenants with them i.e. the land. YET, we also know Abraham never received any of Canaan (Genesis 13:14-18 cp Acts 7:5 cp Genesis 23:1-20). Abraham by faith gladly understood the “land” to be God’s heavenly country NOT of this world! (See and ponder in light of your understanding~Romans 4:13;  Hebrews 11:13-16; etc.). The New Testaments written by the most spiritual Jews that ever lived interpret their OT scriptures FOR US, all we should do is believe THEM (not men like C.I. Scofield) as they make the connections for us.

Brother, "physical Israel" obtained all the land ever promised (Joshua 11:23; 21:23-25; Nehemiah 9:7-8). Why are you and so many today still claiming that Israel has never received their land? Mr. Scofield contradicts the word of God with his blasphemous footnotes (SRB, p.250).

Brother, it is you and others that refuse to see the rejection of physical Israel. The covenants made with physical Israel were very conditional (Deuteronomy 28:1-2,15). The Lord plainly described the horrible calamities that would follow rebellion (Leviticus  26:27-39).

Jesus Christ prophesied God would take the kingdom away from them (Matthew 21:33-46). Jesus told the nation plainly that their house was judged and left desolate (Matthew 23:31-36,38).

The Old Covenant to Israel passed away. It is gone. The New arrived (2nd Corinthians 3; Hebrew 8:13; 12:26-27). Paul would refer to their great covenant symbol as the concision~flesh mutilators (Phil 3:2-3).

But what about Luke 13:35? It was fulfilled directly in Luke 19:38. Must I look to 3500 A.D.? But what about Romans 11:25-32? Isaiah’s perspective of Christ’s death was future (Is 59:20). But what about Hebrews 8:7-13? Jeremiah’s perspective of His death was future (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

All prophecies to physical Israel (1) were fulfilled, (2) conditionally withdrawn, or (3) were spiritually intended and spiritually fulfilled in N.T.

The church is true Israel~Let us be sober as we read Scripture in either testament to consider the spiritual fulfillment in both Jews and Gentiles.
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Galatians 6:16~"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 07:36:34 »
They certainly DID return in fulfillment of prophecy…in the post-exilic period following their Babylonian captivity.
Except that was only a fraction of those in Babylon.  More than half stayed there.  They were there a LONG time.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-in-babylon/

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Abraham Slept Here

The roots of the Babylonian community were very ancient, dating as far back as the end of the biblical period and the deportations from the Land of Israel, which both preceded and followed the destruction of the First Temple (586 B.C.E.). As it grew and prospered, the community tended to emphasize its antiquity.

By the time it had produced its own version of the Talmud, it manifested a kind of “local patriotism.” Was not Abraham the Father of the Nation born “beyond the river” (Euphrates)? Were not the Euphrates and the Tigris the two rivers which flowed out of Eden according to Genesis (2:14)? The Jews of Babylonia, therefore, considered themselves the aristocracy of the Jewish people. Even the land of Mesopotamia acquired an aura of sanctity in their eyes, second to the land of Israel, of course, but holier than all other countries.

Seleucid and Parthian Rule

The history of this community during the first millennium of its existence remains obscure. Following the Hellenistic conquest of the East, the Jews of Babylonia, like their brethren in Palestine, came under Seleucid rule. From the second century B.C.E. until the third century C.E., they were subjects of the Arsacid Parthians. The Parthian kingdom, a loose federation of feudal principalities, was a convenient structure for them as long as they gave their support in times of war, the rulers kept out of the internal affairs of the ethnic groups under their domination.
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“The Prince of Exile”

During the late second or early third century, we hear about [a title for] this community’s political [leader] for the first time: Rosh ha-golah (the exilarch, “prince of exile”). Although nothing is known about the origins of this institution, it is certain that Babylonian Jews in the talmudic period regarded the exilarch as a scion of the House of David. Many talmudic texts compare his attributes to that of the nasi [prince] in the Land of Israel–another manifestation of the singular status of this Jewry.

The new Sassian regime, unlike the Parthian, was far more centralized and strictly Zoroastrian. Certain Jewish sages were afraid that the kind and the clergy would interfere in community affairs. Others, on the other hand, hoped to find a modus vivendi with the Sassians. The sage Samuel summarized this attitude in his famous saying Dina de-malkhuta Dina, the law of the land is law. On the whole, the Jews of Babylon adopted this view, which brought them an extensive period of prosperity and cultural blossoming.

Babylonian Academies

It was during this period that Babylonia emerged as the great center of religious studies which rivaled Palestine. Between the third and the fifth centuries, Babylonian academies–the future yeshivot–established a method of commentary on the Bible which became the basis for the Babylonian Talmud. This tradition, later disseminated by the geonim (heads of the Babylonian academies), was to be accepted by the entire Jewish world. Paradoxically perhaps, the sons of a community of which nothing is known prior to the third century, determined the norms and behavior of Jews throughout the world for fifteen centuries.

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 19:05:19 »
Red---
You are ignoring the fact that God said to Abraham to look with his eyes on the land, and then said "all of this I am giving to you". Israel is back in their land not because of the people of Israel, but because of a PROMISE made to Abraham.

The land of Israel is FOREVER a gift to Abraham and his descendants. Israel MUST exist because God PROMISED that Abraham and his descendants would live there. Israel is back in their land due to A PROMISE. You are failing to see this. Your view of Israel as nothing is very proud--read Romans 11 where Paul warns the grafted branches not to boast against the original branches. Be careful my brother.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 19:05:19 »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #73 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 04:29:11 »
Red---You are ignoring the fact that God said to Abraham to look with his eyes on the land, and then said "all of this I am giving to you". Israel is back in their land not because of the people of Israel, but because of a PROMISE made to Abraham.
Actually, it was scriptures just like those in Genesis that caused me to think and consider that the land was MUCH MORE than what his eyes could see~the Spirit meant all was his according to God's promises as far as he could see and as far as he could go all the days of his life...... still, THAT WAS THE PROMISED land. We can only see a short distance, even on flat land~yet as long as Abraham lifted up his eyes, THAT was the land promised to him and his seed, which is Christ.
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Romans 4:13~"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
One more:
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Hebrews 2:5~"For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak."
God's promises to Abraham went so much farther than that strip of land over in the middle east, but it included the WHOLE WORLD~Christ's kingdom shall fill the new earth, and there we shall sit down with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and hundreds millions more of the promised seed in the kingdom of Christ.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 04:32:16 by RB »

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #73 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 04:29:11 »
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Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #74 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 08:26:53 »
Yes Red---
What God gave to Abraham was FAR MORE than that strip of land. I agree. But it INCLUDED that strip of land. That earthly PROMISE was a tiny PART of God's ENTIRE PROMISE to Abraham. But NONE of God's promises ever fail. Israel IS part of God's promise-- and that is why they are now on the map again since 1948.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #74 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 08:26:53 »



Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #75 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 17:42:25 »
R.C. Sproul (non-premillenial writer):
"And so all Israel will be saved". The context indicates that Paul must be speaking of the Jewish people. He does not mean every Jew who has ever lived, but THE NATION OF ISRAEL. Now why do I say that "Israel" in this phrase refers to the Jews? All through the discussion Paul is talking about Israel in part: part of Israel has been blinded, part of Israel has been cut away, part of Israel has been stubborn, part of Israel has been excluded from the Kingdom of God and its blessings. The Jews as a people are presently under judgment. BUT AS THERE WAS A NATIONAL JUDGMENT, SO THERE WILL BE A NATIONAL RESTORATION. Their rejection, even though it was a national rejection, did not include the rejection of every individual. So the restoration doesn't necessarily mean that every individual Jew will be saved, but the nation AS A NATION WILL BE RESTORED TO GOD".

This is one of many scholars who firmly believe Israel will one day be restored to their land (writers before 1948 and many after 1948 also).

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #75 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 17:42:25 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #76 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:03:33 »
Fish, the sliver of land now referred to as Israel is not even close to that promised by God in the OT.  So whatever was accomplished in 1948 has little if anything to do with the God's land promise to the Jews.

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #77 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:19:18 »
4WD---
The sliver of land is just the beginning. The Jews WILL eventually regain ALL THE LAND GOD PROMISED. Israel the Nation is a DEFINITE fulfillment of God's promise to them. God has only started. In the future the NATION OF ISRAEL will lead the world as the head of nations. This WILL happen.

Once all the Gentiles who will be saved have come in (once the times of the Gentiles are ended) the Jews as a NATION will turn to Christ. Then Israel will be FULLY RESTORED and lead the world. This is prophecy and it WILL happen.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #78 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:20:54 »
Fish, the sliver of land now referred to as Israel is not even close to that promised by God in the OT.  So whatever was accomplished in 1948 has little if anything to do with the God's land promise to the Jews.

To amplify this, the land promise was fulfilled according to scripture.

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So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.
(Jos 21:43-45)

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #78 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:20:54 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #79 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:46:03 »
Israel as a NATION was judged by God. In A.D. 70 the Temple was destroyed, and the Jews were scattered. However, miraculously, the Jews retained their religion and identity through 2000 years of dispersion. Johnathan Edwards, the great theologian, said this was a miracle of God, and that one day that NATION would be RESTORED just as the Bible promised. The BEGINNING of that RESTORATION started in 1948.

One day Israel will again be restored to ALL THE TERRITORY God originally promised to Abraham. They will be FULLY RESTORED as a Nation.

We should be greatly rejoicing to be alive to see Israel in their land again-- not scoffing! This is a HUGE SIGN to us that Jesus is VERY CLOSE to coming back again!!  Hallelujah!!! God is TRUE to His promises!!!

Offline DaveW

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #80 on: Wed Jul 07, 2021 - 12:52:34 »
Fish, the sliver of land now referred to as Israel is not even close to that promised by God in the OT.  So whatever was accomplished in 1948 has little if anything to do with the God's land promise to the Jews.
While it is truly just a "sliver," is that not often how God starts something?

Eventually that WILL encompass the entire land area promised in Joshua 1:

3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #81 on: Thu Jul 08, 2021 - 22:16:40 »

fish153:

    "Israel as a NATION was judged by God. In A.D. 70 the Temple was destroyed, and the Jews were scattered. However, miraculously, the Jews retained their religion and identity through 2000 years of dispersion. Johnathan Edwards, the great theologian, said this was a miracle of God, and that one day that NATION would be RESTORED just as the Bible promised. The BEGINNING of that RESTORATION started in 1948.

    "One day Israel will again be restored to ALL THE TERRITORY God originally promised to Abraham. They will be FULLY RESTORED as a Nation."

_____

    God divorced Old Israel in A. D. 67-70 because of of her incessant rebelliousness and replaced her with new Israel—the redeemed community. Old Israel rejected her “husband” and ran off with strange and immoral gods. When God divorced His wife, He did not replace her with a divisive system of religion called “New Testament Church”—a splinter system of partisan loyalists.

    Paul referred to new Israel, the grace community, by calling her “a new creation” and added, “...peace and mercy be upon them [new believers], and upon the [new] Israel of God,” to distinguish her, new Israel, from Old Israel according to the flesh [Gal 6:15-16].

    The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Old Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King. God used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove Israel’s Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between.

    It was over—forever—for Old Israel as a divinely-endorsed nation! God had had enough of His one-time wife who persisted in spiritual adultery. They had become a stiff-neck people. “You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers—you always resist the Holy Spirit” [Acts 7:51.]

    Even Jesus foretold of the disaster that would come upon His one-time wife when He said, “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near...They [Jewish nation] will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations” [Luke 21:20-24]. Jesus made it plain that all this punishment that came upon His once Holy Nation was “in fulfillment of all that has been written” [v. 22]. The path of Old Israel as a holy nation had ended, never to rise again.

Buff
               

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #82 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 05:18:31 »
God divorced Old Israel in A. D. 67-70 because of of her incessant rebelliousness and replaced her with new Israel—the redeemed community. Old Israel rejected her “husband” and ran off with strange and immoral gods. When God divorced His wife, 
The biblical truth is this: God was forever finished with the Jews' religion as Paul called it in Galatians 1:13~at the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ when the vail in the Jews' temple was rent from bottom to the top. Need to say I any more on this subject? I do not think so.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 22:16:40
He did not replace her with a divisive system of religion called “New Testament Church”—a splinter system of partisan loyalists.
You are taking a free shot at the Church of Jesus Christ~do not go after the system put in place by God through his apostles, go after the snakes that crawled in immediately.
Quote from: Jude an apostle, brother of James
Jude verses 3,4~"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
You have such an aversion to the word "church" of Jesus Christ that you have erred greatly the other way with your many unscriptural teachings.
Quote from: Paul the apostle to the Gentiles churches of God'Christ
Acts 20:26-31~"Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
The problem sir, is NOT with the "church of God/Christ" but snakes, dogs, wolves, lurking around inside, perverting the doctrines of the holy scriptures to draw men after them. Classic example:
Quote from: Reformer Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 22:16:40
Even Jesus foretold of the disaster that would come upon His one-time wife when He said, “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near
Your understanding is so far off on this critical verse of NT eschatology that pertains to the very LAST day of this world's existence. When we see the NT JERUSALEM CHURCH surrounded by enemies WITHIN THEM~then KNOW that the desolation is nigh because of the abomination THEREIN! Luke 21 is fully understood in light of
Quote from: The apostle John who heard Jesus teach concerning Luke 21
Revelation 20:7-9~"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Sir, you have it all backward, but no surprise to me, but I'm sure to you even to a point that you will just mock and keep on preaching AGAINST the very elect that is the NT church, even though it has been infiltrated greatly by thieves and liars professing to believe where they now surround us and seek to be rid of us if they could. 

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #83 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 11:27:24 »
RB:

    "Sir, you have it all backward, but no surprise to me, but I'm sure to you even to a point that you will just mock and keep on preaching AGAINST the very elect that is the NT church, even though it has been infiltrated greatly by thieves and liars professing to believe where they now surround us and seek to be rid of us if they could."

    As to what I believe the scriptures reveal relative to this topic, I kindly reject your judgments and accusations. And please do not overlook the truth that...

"Revelation is what God said. Interpretation is what we think He meant by what he said.”

    It is spiritually acceptable to admit the possibility of being in error occasionally. Let us hear it from you! Neither of us has reached a level of doctrinal perfection.

    It might be good to remind yourself that the Greek does not support your understanding of our English "church." The Lord and His apostles founded a new community of believers, the ekklesia of Christ, not a "New Testament Church," according to the Greek scriptures. I suggest we both go with the Greek in this matter, not with King James.

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« Last Edit: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 11:34:51 by Reformer »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #84 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 11:42:54 »
It might be good to remind yourself that the Greek does not support your understanding of our English "church." The Lord and His apostles founded a new community of believers, the ekklesia of Christ, not a "New Testament Church," according to the Greek scriptures. I suggest we both go with the Greek in this matter, not with King James.
Interesting; I haven't read from you any similar suggestion about our English "baptize" or "baptism".

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #85 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 13:24:31 »
4WD:

    "Interesting; I haven't read from you any similar suggestion about our English 'baptize' or 'baptism.' "

    Totally wrong. I will reinsert my past comments after you answer the two questions I asked you weeks ago. I'd be delighted to repeat them, if you wish.

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Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #86 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 14:41:03 »
It is spiritually acceptable to admit the possibility of being in error occasionally. Let us hear it from you! Neither of us has reached a level of doctrinal perfection.
No one here is professing that to be the case with them~I have made several confessions of being in error on a few doctrines, during my Christian journey~each time I corrected them once I studied the doctrine out.
Quote from: Reformer on: Today at 11:27:24
It might be good to remind yourself that the Greek does not support your understanding of our English "church." The Lord and His apostles founded a new community of believers, the ekklesia of Christ, not a "New Testament Church," according to the Greek scriptures. I suggest we both go with the Greek in this matter, not with King James.
Sir, neither you nor I, or anyone person has ever seen the original letters written by Paul and other men of God, I would strongly suggest you to show a little wisdom and hear men of God who talked about this same subject shortly after the KJV came out~hear ye them:

Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture~The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to  write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible. {William Fulke “New Testament Confutation,” 1589} But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. {Acts.18:26}

Also, what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, {I Cor.2:10;} he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” {Is.29:10-12} Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. {I Cor.2:9-16} {See also Ps.119:99,100}

The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, {Ex.32:4-8, &c.,} and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they Idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into a necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. But, what, are there not means and helps to the understanding the Scriptures without Greek and Hebrew? Yes, only the self-evidencing light of the Spirit of God, which first inspired the Pen-men of Scriptures, who is in the hearts of the Saints, the only Interpreter of the Scriptures. Secondly; the knowledge of the body of Divinity, or the Analogy of the faith, to which the Scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation. Thirdly; the Law of God written in the hearts of the Lord’s, which favors the truth, and disrelishes errors. The fourth help to the understanding the Scriptures, is the manifold experience of varieties of temptations, and the experiences of the work of Grace in the soul. Lastly, to compare Scriptures that are dark with Scriptures of the same nature that are more plain, and so to let the Scriptures expound themselves. I conclude this, all men are pure blind, yea dead, till God gives life, and opens men’s eyes. And although human learning is necessary for translating the Scriptures, &c. yet many idolize it, as the children of Israel did.

Samuel Richardson wrote 1650, or thereabouts.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 03:55:52 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #87 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 15:30:07 »
4WD:

    "Interesting; I haven't read from you any similar suggestion about our English 'baptize' or 'baptism.' "

    Totally wrong. I will reinsert my past comments after you answer the two questions I asked you weeks ago. I'd be delighted to repeat them, if you wish.

Buff

I am just going to believe that you are quite happy with the English words "baptize" and "baptism" while your irrational lack of understanding of the English word "church"  is the problem here.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #88 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 15:35:06 »
RB, if Samuel Richardson actually wrote what you posted there, then he is an idiot, or worse.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #89 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 21:31:10 »
4WD:

   "I am just going to believe that you are quite happy with the English words 'baptize' and 'baptism' while your irrational lack of understanding of the English word 'church' is the problem here."

    I try to limit my responses to sensible replies. Consequently, it would be rational and justifiably to by-pass this one. Anyway, my past posts cover all of this material - and more.

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 21:45:28 by Reformer »

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #90 on: Fri Jul 09, 2021 - 21:44:33 »

RB:

    No offence, but your lengthy Books need to be divided into short chapters, with ample paragraphs. Go for it! Such will be easier on the eyes of your readers. My decades of writing and publishing have disciplined and "indoctrinated" me quite well—not bragging, only trying to be factual.

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #91 on: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 03:50:10 »
RB, if Samuel Richardson actually wrote what you posted there, then he is an idiot, or worse.
He did and he's far from being an idiot~One of the original men on the London Confession of Faith for the Baptist churches back in and around 1650,  As far as I'm concerned he has the best small book on the doctrine of "Justification by faith"~ and the faith he wrote on was not our faith, but Jesus' faith ~which men like John Gill and John Brine follow after~with John Brine being a little closer to Richardson and Gill a little less.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #90 on: Yesterday at 21:44:33
No offence, but your lengthy Books need to be divided into short chapters, with ample paragraphs. Go for it! Such will be easier on the eyes of your readers.
NO offense taken, but I had rather read a paper that covers the subject, than a short essay where the person has on clue as to what they are talking about, but, that's just me, every man to his own.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #90 on: Yesterday at 21:44:33
My decades of writing and publishing have disciplined and "indoctrinated" me quite well—not bragging, only trying to be factual.
The older writers had much more time to dedicate their gift from God in writing and they always covered the subject as much as they could to shut the mouths of gainsayers and to teach God's children properly, neither you nor I am worthy to serve such men in whatever capacity they needed us.

Looking at the short article again, it can be read in less than five minutes, so what's the big fuss all about? My grandfather would read the morning paper all the way through in one setting which would take much more time~folks watch movies hours at a time, etc and ball games at four hours or so without stopping~it's truly a lack of love for the truth that would cause one to think that such an article as Samuel Richardson is too long to read. Let us be honest....... yet as writers, I KNOW we must accommodate such people in our day where folks want it and they want it NOW without much labor. Teaching the scriptures..... that's almost impossible, especially so with a person who has truth, if one does not have the truth, they have little say.

If I were you, I would not glory in my writings skills but would be much more concerned in my ability to rightly divide the word of God~it is clearly seen where your priorities are, at least to me.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 04:05:01 by RB »

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #92 on: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 06:45:07 »
He did and he's far from being an idiot~One of the original men on the London Confession of Faith for the Baptist churches back in and around 1650,  As far as I'm concerned he has the best small book on the doctrine of "Justification by faith"~ and the faith he wrote on was not our faith, but Jesus' faith
His rejection of the utility of access to the Greek and Hebrews languages in a study of the Scriptures could be a contributing factor in his error in "justification by Jesus' faith".  But then, in a quick look into Samuel Richardson didn't indicate any particular expertise as a theologian.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #93 on: Sat Jul 10, 2021 - 12:53:22 »
RB:

    "If I were you, I would not glory in my writings skills but would be much more concerned in my ability to rightly divide the word of God~it is clearly seen where your priorities are, at least to me."

    My brother, on a serious note you may correctly apply your quotation above to yourself, as I see it, or "at least to me."

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #94 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 04:21:47 »
RB:

    "If I were you, I would not glory in my writings skills but would be much more concerned in my ability to rightly divide the word of God~it is clearly seen where your priorities are, at least to me."

    My brother, on a serious note you may correctly apply your quotation above to yourself, as I see it, or "at least to me."

Blessings,

Buff

Corrected...Mr. "Sensitive"

Christians should NOT glory in their writings skills or try to impress others with their natural abilities in any area.  I KNOW that my writings skills are lacking~most likely so were the apostles, after all, ~fisherman, tax collectors, carpenters, not your most educated of society, kinda on the low end I would think~and that's fine with me, we all are what we are by the grace of Almighty God, his choice when it is all said and done!

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #95 on: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:54:17 »
It is easy, as so many people do, to think that the apostles were simply unlearned and uneducated men.  However, they studied at the feet of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, for nearly three years.  They spent nearly every hour of their lives with Him in His earthly ministry.  Paul, speaking of his preaching and that of the rest of the apostles, said that "my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God" (1 Cor 2:4-5).  I find it very interesting to find that the NT writers, who supposedly were uneducated men, wrote in faultless Greek grammar.  Their writing skills were top notch.  We should all strive to mimic such skills in our discussions of God's word.  Whether we should take pride and glory in such skill is another matter.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 11, 2021 - 06:56:44 by 4WD »

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #96 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 09:35:41 »
Stopping to correct grammar or punctuation of another poster is what you do when you are offended by someone disagreeing with you.  When you do that, it has become personal, and it looks like an attempt to degrade another.

Let me remind others of something recently posted:

Quote
However, let me emphasize that it is acceptable to oppose and speak negatively of a system, an arrangement, a scheme, or a program without degrading or speaking evil of those who are innocently caught up in their web.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #97 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:07:08 »
I find it very interesting to find that the NT writers, who supposedly were uneducated men, wrote in faultless Greek grammar.  Their writing skills were top notch.  We should all strive to mimic such skills in our discussions of God's word.  Whether we should take pride and glory in such skill is another matter.
"Uneducated" is a very relative term.  We have an idea of what that is; but to the Pharisees who said that, the standard was MUCH HIGHER.  I heard one estimate that just growing up in the synagogue system would give one the equivalent of a masters degree in theology.  The educational level of actual Pharisees that attended one of their schools would make those who only had the synagogue to look like grade schoolers to college grads today.

BTW - Those uneducated fishermen did not speak native Greek.  I believe all their works were translated into "flawless Greek" in the late 1st or early 2nd centuries. Paul, of course, was fluent in Greek.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:09:59 by DaveW »

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #98 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 10:40:43 »
I believe.....
And that is the sum total of it; which is to say there is no evidence of that.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #99 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 12:02:30 »
And that is the sum total of it; which is to say there is no evidence of that.
There is historical evidence for at least Matthew's gospel being originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic.  It is mentioned in the writings of the ECFs and at least a couple of copies have turned up/

The most ancient copies of the Peshita - which is in Aramaic - have "hebrisms" or plays on words common in both Hebrew and Aramaic but not able to be recreated if translated from Greek.

So there IS evidence, just not overly-compelling evidence.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #100 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 13:01:25 »
There is evidence that perhaps some rather limited portion of Matthew was written in Aramaic.  But even that is very sketchy. 

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #101 on: Mon Jul 12, 2021 - 18:45:27 »

Texas Conservative:

    Your Post#96, in reference to what I posted earlier, had and has nothing to do with the core of your explanation. I was not trying to stop or to "correct grammar or punctuation of another poster" of someone who disagreed with me. It was a clarification only, nothing more.

    I'll explain further what I meant should you be interested in correcting your insinuation, which is surely off-center.

Kindly,

Buff