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Offline johntwayne

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Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 11:04:05 »
Quote
And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Mat 24:1-3)

In the quote above the context is set for Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke. Jesus states that the the temple will be destroyed with not one stone remaining on top of another. They are curious about when this will happen and question Jesus about it. He answers.

Quote
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. "Behold, I have told you in advance. "If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. "For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(Mat 24:4-34)

Jesus teaches what will happen and tells them it will take place before their generation dies out. It was fulfilled in AD 70 at the destructtion of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman Army.

After Jesus teaching in chapter 24 he moves on to describe how the kingdom will be after the destruction of the temple in Matthew 25.

Quote
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom. "And five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' "Then all those virgins rose, and trimmed their lamps. "And the foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' "But the prudent answered, saying, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.' "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves, and entrusted his possessions to them. "And to one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. "But he who received the one talent went away and dug in the ground, and hid his master's money. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. "And the one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me; see, I have gained five more talents.' "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master.' "The one also who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted to me two talents; see, I have gained two more talents.' "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground; see, you have what is yours.' "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed. 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' "For to everyone who has shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. "And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Mat 25:1-46)

After the destruction of the temple the kingdom will be waiting for Jesus second and final coming.

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 15:05:43 »
Thanks for starting this thread~later I'll come and post. Matthew 24 is one of the most important chapters in Bible prophecy. I have about fifty pages of work on this one chapter that I did back around 15 years ago. It's good to refresh one memory by going back over this again, there's always a fresh nugget waiting to be discovered by the diligent student of the scriptures. RB 

Offline Rella

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 15:18:05 »
I would like to start at  the beginning of your post there are certain things that should be noted and a couple of questions I have never found an answer for and perhaps you can supply one.

Quote
Quote
And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down." And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Mat 24:1-3)
[/size]

In the quote above the context is set for Jesus' teaching in Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke. Jesus states that the the temple will be destroyed with not one stone remaining on top of another. They are curious about when this will happen and question Jesus about it. He answers.

Quote
Quote
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. "Behold, I have told you in advance. "If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. "For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(Mat 24:4-34)
[/size]

Jesus teaches what will happen and tells them it will take place before their generation dies out. It was fulfilled in AD 70 at the destructtion of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman Army.

An important question.

WHEN was the sun darkened, the moon not give it's light and the stars fall from the sky ? How soon after the temple destruction?

Of all the historians I have read I do not recall any ever mentioning this "sign" that Jesus gave them.


When did the sign of the son of man appear in the sky?

Again I have not read of this by any historian... though in truth it might have been cloudy that day?


And when did all the tribes of the earth  see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY?

Those historian missed every single "important" thing and that makes me question if anything they ever said about anything was correct.


So,  when Jesus follows up after the parable of the fig tree with "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Who specifically was He talking about because if his disciples were to be included , most  were generally considered dead... by violence.... before the 7th decade AD.

You say...." . It was fulfilled in AD 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman Army."

But it was not... because not all that Jesus said happened.


And Jesus said  "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.... at the same time He said "and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
and that just after His saying "  immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL"


[size=13pt]That never happened in any recorded history and therefore  Your summation of  It was fulfilled in AD 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman Army." is faulty art best.[/size]

The truth you do speak is...

Your final comment


"After the destruction of the temple the kingdom will be waiting for Jesus second and final coming". And that is yet to come

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 15:18:05 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 17:10:04 »
Rella that is language found in the Old Testament of temporal judgments of God that took place. It's called apocalyptic language.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 17:10:04 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 19:54:45 »
Rella--

Jesus is talking about an event that will shortly take place AND something that will happen in the distant future. Much of prophecy does that. A prophet can be speaking of one event, and then refer to something 1000 years in the future.

The "generation" Jesus is referring to is a far distant "generation" which will be alive to see these things. Trying to make EVERYTHING apply to 70 AD is a HUGE ERROR.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 19:54:45 »



Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 20:01:20 »
I will give another example. Jesus at the end of Matthew 16 says "there are some standing here who will not die until they see the Son of Man coming in great power and Glory".

Then, at the start of Matthew 17 Jesus is transfigured in front of Peter, James and John. Now read 2 Peter 1 and see how Peter said he saw "the power and coming of the Lord Jesus" when he was on the Holy Mount.

When we read this we realize that Peter, John and James are the ones who were "standing there" and had not died yet, and SAW the return of Jesus in the transfiguration.

We need to read very carefully, and not confuse AD 70 with the end of the world and the return of Jesus.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 20:01:20 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #6 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 22:36:35 »
Rella--

Jesus is talking about an event that will shortly take place AND something that will happen in the distant future. Much of prophecy does that. A prophet can be speaking of one event, and then refer to something 1000 years in the future.

The "generation" Jesus is referring to is a far distant "generation" which will be alive to see these things. Trying to make EVERYTHING apply to 70 AD is a HUGE ERROR.

How do you get a far distant generation out of
Quote
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(Mat 24:34)
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 01:23:18 by johntwayne »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 03:42:04 »
How do you get a far distant generation out of
Quote from: Our Lord
Matthew 24:34~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Brother, generation is in this discourse is not speaking of TIME but of a KIND OF, as its is used for the most part in the scriptures, and always remember, God's word is its own dictionary on words being used by the Spirit of God.

When we consider the CONTEXT of the Olivet discourse, we see Jesus is clearly speaking of events that shall proceed his second coming and the end of the world.

For now, I will only say that this generation means the "evil and wicked generation" that will be living when Jesus returns again among whom he will not find faith except in a very few numbers of people much like Noah's days when only a handful were saved. Much like Lot's day when only a handful were saved~in both TIME generation of Noah and Lot's day's wickedness abounded.

If we start from the beginning of Matthew 24 we will see immediately warnings about not allowing men to deceive us for in those days many false prophets shall arise and deceive MANY~they will even come and say that Jesus is the Christ, which most would give ear to that and consider them very sound in that sense, yet that are a man of sin~by rejecting most of the scriptures for their own doctrines of what they think God should be IF they were God and how THEY would do things.

Concerning generation meaning KIND and not time in this discourse consider how David used the words this generation.
Quote from: David a prophet of God
Psalms 12~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
David without question is speaking of a kind of generation, not a certain time generation in the history of this world.

Consider how the wise man, David's son used the word generation:
Quote from: THE WISE MAN
Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."
Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a period of time. It is not a prophecy of the future, when children would be rebellious, for all ages have such sinners. It is not a prophecy of bad men in Jesus Christ’s time, for such a use would be unique in Proverbs and without practical wisdom for life.

To be as short as I can (for there are many hundreds of scriptures using the words THIS generation that has reference to KIND, not time.) this generation that our Lord mention is only speaking of evil wicked men that WILL NEVER pass from this earth but will only wax worse and worse (per 2nd Timothy three) until Jesus' coming to destroy the wicked and to gathered together his very elect from the four corners of the earth.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 13:15:49 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 04:06:29 »
Jesus is talking about an event that will shortly take place AND something that will happen in the distant future.
Brother, while I love your zeal and fear of God, your interpretation of the scriptures need some work on~and that's okay it's true of all of us to a degree and always will be by the fact we live in a body of sin and death.

I must disagree that ANY of Matthew 24 is pertaining to that present generation in any sense whatsoever~it is 100% speaking of a time when this world will be filled with false prophets who come into the churches saying that Jesus is the Christ~(which all the popular preachers that are in our day that have become filthy rich and live a life that past kings of this world could not match..... coming preaching) yet their message overall is the message from a man of sin, who truly has no love for the TRUTHS of the gospel, and truly are ignorant of it and a despiser of those who embrace the truth and know it~the only love they have is the LIFE it offers them by spreading their lies and giving hope to those still in their sins. 

Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 and 2nd Thessalonians two are speaking of the very same timeframe along with many scriptures from Daniel and Revelation. As a matter of fact, both our Lord and Paul start our with the very SAME WARNING in both places: please read and ponder: (Matthew 24:4;  2nd Thessalonians 2:3~do you think by chance this happened? Of course not, we both know that to be true~same warnings because of the same timeline subject under consideration.

Later we shall labor to prove this, and I do not see a problem in doing so. Been there, done that and can do it again when called upon.

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 04:06:29 »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 04:46:57 »
An important question.

How soon after the temple destruction?
Rella, the temple under consideration is NOT the Jewish temple in Jerusalem but the NT churches~Christ only used the question by the disciples to give a prophetic message of the latter days of THIS WORLD and events that we shall consider as SIGNS of His soon appearing. I'll be brief~
Quote from: Our Lord Jessu Christ
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Rella, a question for you and others to consider: Do you really think Jesus would refer to the temple in Jerusalem as holy as late as 70 A.D.? Absouletly he would not! God was FOREVER finished with that earthly temple at the resurrection of his Son, when HE rip the veil of the temple from bottom to top! At that time the Jewish temple was NO longer of any importance in the worship of God~it had served its purpose the NT was NOW enforced and operating. God was NOWHERE to be found in the earthly temple made with hands!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 4:21-24~"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You asked:
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:18:05
WHEN was the sun darkened, the moon not give it's light and the stars fall from the sky ?
This has NOT happened, yet we expect this to come to pass at Jesus' second coming.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:18:05
Of all the historians I have read I do not recall any ever mentioning this "sign" that Jesus gave them.
Who cares what they say about bible prophecy? Believers certainly should not care.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:18:05
When did the sign of the son of man appear in the sky?
Rella, we are still here, so, we KNOW it has NOT happened as yet, regardless of what the preterist, and half-baked preterist, and others say.  The latter part of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 proves them to be badly deceived.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:18:05
though in truth it might have been cloudy that day?
I'll show mercy and pass on that statement.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:18:05
And when did all the tribes of the earth  see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY?
Has not happened as of yet~amazinly the folks who try in vain to push this back into 70 A.D. have a hard time addressing this scripture and for good reasons.
Quote
Those historian missed every single "important" thing and that makes me question if anything they ever said about anything was correct.
Of course, they are not gifted by God to teach his people the truth and would not know the truth if it smacked them right between the eyes. Stay with the scriptures and try not to use "extra-biblical" information that only takes one way from the truth not toward the truth.

The rest of your post I believe was answered above to johntwayne.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 08:47:30 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 09:55:35 »
Is it hard to kick against the goads RB? Your view is ridiculous. Tell me this, if Jesus had meant to convey that those things were to occur in the near future how would he have to have said it to satisfy you?
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 10:00:28 by johntwayne »

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 10:12:42 »
John—-

“There will be teleportation devices in every home, a truly blessed generation of people, and this generation(the ones alive then)will see many other things we only thought possible in science fiction movies.”  Speaking of the future, yet “this” generation. Jesus is doing the same thing. He is speaking of future generations and saying “this generation”(the ones alive THEN).

It is the same as when Paul says “then WE who are alive and remain will be changed in the twinkling of an eye”.  The WE is referring to any Christians ALIVE when it takes place. Paul isn’t saying he’ll necessarily be there—-but Christians (WE) will be there when it happens.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 10:32:26 by fish153 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 10:24:50 »
Red— I have to disagree with you. Jesus IS referring to two events. Matt. 24:2 “there will not be one stone left on top of another” is referring to 70 AD in response to his disciples saying how beautiful the Temple is. Jesus is referring to a not too distant event— the destruction of the Temple.  But then in response to the second half of their question “when shall these things take place?” He is jumping far into the future speaking of the “generation” alive then who will see His return.

Jesus picked up a scroll in the Temple and read from Isaiah 60 but only read HALF of the verse. The part He read was being fulfilled right then by Him, but the rest of the verse was in the far distant future, so He didn’t read that as being fulfilled yet. Jesus is doing the same in Matthew 24. He is speaking of events soon to be fulfilled, and distant future events also. The Preterists do not understand this and are very confused, and err greatly in their teachings.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 10:27:49 by fish153 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 12:10:46 »
How do you get a far distant generation out of

How do you get a far distant generation out of
Quote
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(Mat 24:34)
[/size]

To not drag this away from the OP into another subject area with a long reply I will briefly (?)  answer.

How do you know exactly what Jesus meant when he said ''this generation''?

True....generally, the word generation refers to all the people living at the same time and we commonly understand the word in the Bible has the same definition that we are used to in modern usage when we speak of Gen X or the Millennials. Normally, a generation is about thirty years as  one generation raises the next.

This cannot be the meaning that Jesus was referring to. In the first place. From the day Jesus first spoke these words... more then 30 years passed before the destruction of the temple. So Jesus had to be referring to something else.

 However, in some biblical contexts, a “generation” can refer to a longer age or a group of people spanning a longer period of time.

The original languages of the Bible used at least three different words that are translated “generation” in English.

For example... The Hebrew dor can refer to a normal, physical generation, as in Exodus 1:6. But it can also be used metaphorically to identify people of a distinguishable type.

Psalm 78:8 says, “They should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation whose heart was not steadfast, whose spirit was not faithful to God” . Here the word dor is used twice to refer to a group of people through a long period of time who were characterized by rebellion and sin. The “generation” in Psalm 78:8 is not limited to a normal thirty-year period but stretches back through the history of Israel to include all who were stubborn against God.

But we are talking new testament.... and you need to hear what you are reading... not with the understanding
you think you know. By that I mean as one reads one needs to open their mind to mentally hear what is being said for this will offer an understanding that one might miss.

Remember what Romans 10:17 says. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Hearing by reading.... for that is how were are told the word of God these days.

From the Greek interlinear Matt 25: 34 translated reads

"Truly I say to you that no not will have passed away the generation this until - all these things shall have taken place

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24.htm

You need to see the words yourself... check out the link.... note the word genea

The meaning of this word translatted covers...

1 fathered, birth, nativity

2 that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

3 the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

4 metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

5  the whole multitude of men living at the same time
6  an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Thayers Greek Lexicon says this for one ...

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

https://biblehub.com/greek/1074.htm

NAS exhaustive concordance

says...

generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.org

https://biblehub.com/greek/1074.htm

And there are many others.

In the New Testament, the Greek genea IS the source of generation. It is similar to both Hebrew words.

Literally, it means “fathered, birthed, nativity,” referring to a genetic line.

But it can be used as both the time frame characterized by a specific cultural attitude and the people in that culture.

In Matthew 1:17, the generations are marked off by significant events and people—Abraham, David, Babylonian captivity—like the Hebrew toledot. But when Jesus calls the Pharisees and scribes a “wicked and perverse generation,” He is referring to the culture that they lived in and encouraged (Matthew 12:39; see also Matthew 17:17 and Acts 2:40).

So, when we read “generation” in the Bible, we have to consider the context.

Usually, a generation in the Bible is roughly thirty years long or the people living during that time, the same as what we understand a generation to be in everyday talk. But there are times when generation is used poetically to refer to a class of people demarked by something other than age.

This is where I come on my understanding... "the class of people that Jesus was referring to and that extends to us... as believers.

And is why your final comment of  " After the destruction of the temple the kingdom will be waiting for Jesus second and final coming." is appropriately correct .

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 12:10:59 »
After the destruction of the temple the kingdom will be waiting for Jesus second and final coming.
The problem I have with pre-millenial beliefs, such as this, is that they demand that God is absent.

Jesus is not absent.  He already reigns, and it is not as if he were some king in a distant land.  He is here, with us, in us.  He works through us.  The kingdom of God is at hand... not far away.  That literally IS the gospel.

If your church's beliefs require that The Gospel is not true, you should look for a new church, or some new beliefs, or both.

Jarrod


Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 13:50:28 »
How do you know exactly what Jesus meant when he said ''this generation''?
Context is king and is what drives our interpretation for us. The common use of the word generation should not be what drives our understanding of the word of God, we must go with the  CONTEXT in which the word is used.

Consider the following scriptures where we see the word generation and see how our readers think it is meant to be understood by us. I will not comment very much now, but later I will.

Matthew chapter one concerning the generation of Jesus Christ?

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 8:12~"And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto "this" generation."

Quote
Psalms 78:8~"And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

Quote
Matthew 23:36~"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
BE CAREFUL before you say concerning this verse for I have a great question for those who think Jesus is speaking of that present time generation. I love this verse it is an EYE OPENER for those seeking the truth on this point.

Quote
Luke 3:7~"Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
John understood the biblical meaning of generation as it is used many, many times over.

Quote
Matthew 12:34~"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh

Quote
Luke 7:31~"And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Jesus was NOT speaking of men LIVING in that generation for some of this world's greatest men and women  lived in that particular time generation.

Quote
Luke 11:50~That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation
A wonderful scripture that will drive our understanding of this generation IF we would allow it to do so! The very reason why the blood of all since Abel to the very last saint that is killed by THIS GENERATION will be required at their hands is that this generation of evil and wicked men killed them just as Cain killed his brother Abel and why did he kill him?  because Abel's works were righteous and Cain's were evil!

Quote
1st Peter 2:9~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Later....RB
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 13:54:07 by RB »

Offline Rella

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 20:36:37 »

Quote
Of all the historians I have read I do not recall any ever mentioning this "sign" that Jesus gave them.

 This has NOT happened, yet we expect this to come to pass at Jesus' second coming. Who cares what they say about bible prophecy? Believers certainly should not care.Rella, we are still here, so, we KNOW it has NOT happened as yet, regardless of what the preterist, and half-baked preterist, and others say.


I disagree. I say we should care because of those ... mostly of the preterist views... that
are insistent "ALL" in Jesus' comment to His disciples did already happen and they base
a large part of their belief on "34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

You are spot on in your explanation ..."generation is in this discourse is not speaking of TIME but of a KIND OF, "

That was what I was saying but not as concise as you.

But I maintain.. as all preterists and even the suggestion of the OP that all had happened by 70AD  there is no proof and if there was proof it would have been covered by some ancient historian somewhere.

On This Generation thing.... you and I are in full agreement, even if we come at it from different directions.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 04:15:40 »
The problem I have with pre-millenial beliefs, such as this, is that they demand that God is absent.

Jesus is not absent.  He already reigns, and it is not as if he were some king in a distant land.  He is here, with us, in us.  He works through us.  The kingdom of God is at hand... not far away.  That literally IS the gospel.

If your church's beliefs require that The Gospel is not true, you should look for a new church, or some new beliefs, or both.

Jarrod

First of all, I reject premillennialism and all its forms so the statement is not from that doctrine. Yes Jesus is with us spiritually, but He is not with us personally. The second coming will be a personal appearance.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
(Php 3:20-21)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 1:9-10)

Both of these passages refer to us waiting for the second coming of Christ. Here is another.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
(Heb 9:27-28)
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 04:26:57 by johntwayne »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 04:30:23 »
Still kicking against the goads RB. The time element is not in the word generation, but in the phrase "shall not pass away." All it means is that people of that generation would live through the events just described by Jesus.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 04:45:28 by johntwayne »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 04:55:13 »
I want to look at a couple of scriptures to help us see clearly Jesus' use of the phrase~"This generation.
Quote
Luke 11:39-50~"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.  Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"
Our Lord always use the phrase~"this" generation in the sense of KIND, never time, just as he used it here and its twin scriptures in Matthew 23, when speaking to the Pharisees, Sadducees, lawyers and scribes and the Jews in general.

Considering the scriptures above, Jesus said that the blood that was shed on the earth was to be required from the generation of those that killed them showing us that generation is used for KIND, not time. Jesus called them THIS GENERATION for that was the very people that were UNDER CONSIDERATION just as it is in Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21. It is not that difficult to see and understand this simple truth IF we follow the context carefully~INSTEAD of listening to the sound bites of words and making our conclusion what the writer, speaker meant by saying what they said.

Again, Jesus said all the "righteous" blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias will be required from THIS GENERATION meaning that "THIS GENERATION" as it is used by Jesus, had to be the very ones LIVING that did the killing of righteous children of God who were killed by children of the wicked one!
Quote from: John the apostle
1st John 3:12~"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."
To think and then teach that Jesus was going to required the then living generation in Jesus' day to be judged by killing Abel down to Zachariah (I believe John the Baptist's father) is showing one's lack of Bible knowledge. THIS GENERATION includes men like Abel down to the very ones that killed our Lord Jesus and even down to our days. God will REQUIRE AT THEIR HANDS the blood of all men that they have killed since the world has begun. Cain will not go free and the generation living during our Lord's days to charged for Cain's death. Yet, that's how some believe who run with the sound bites instead of allowing the scriptures to render to us its interpretation and they WILL, if we trust them to do so.

Later....RB


Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 05:04:52 »
Still kicking against the goads RB. The time element is not in the word generation, but in the phrase "shall not pass away." All it means is that people of that generation would live through the events just described by Jesus.

Later I will address this point....THEN we shall let others judge to see who truly is not seeing the truth of God's word.
Quote
The time element is not in the word generation
Well, time element IS in the word generation, just not in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and many other NT scriptures~but, that's not to say the common meaning of the word is not in the scriptures, for it is indeed. A "time" generation is between 70 to 80 years per Moses in Psalm 90.
Quote
but in the phrase "shall not pass away." All
Okay, we shall see if you are correct~pretty sure you will be disappointed.     later....RB

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 05:05:40 »
You're beating a straw man to death RB that has nothing to do with the issue. Again I ask. How would Jesus have had to say it to satisfy you that He was saying those people would not die off completely till all was fulfilled?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 08:27:27 »
First of all, I reject premillennialism and all its forms so the statement is not from that doctrine.
Then you have somehow fallen into the the same blunder as they - the fallacy that God is absent.

Yes Jesus is with us spiritually, but He is not with us personally. The second coming will be a personal appearance.
Personally?  Did you struggle to make up a word for this?  You sure picked the wrong one... there are literally tomes written going on about the "personhood" of Jesus.  Let's put that aside, though...

It seems you just mean that He is without a Body.  In truth, He has a body, and it is here in the world.  It's us.  We are the Body of Christ, and He works through us.

As for the verses which you have plucked out of context, just look at the timing of when they were written.

Jarrod

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 08:29:17 »
You're beating a straw man to death RB that has nothing to do with the issue. Again I ask. How would Jesus have had to say it to satisfy you that He was saying those people would not die off completely till all was fulfilled?

What are you talking about?

"How would Jesus have had to say it to satisfy you that He was saying those people would not die off completely till all was fulfilled?"

This is exactly what I understand him to mean and understand and if I am interpreting him wrongly then he will tell me so.

What you do not seem to be able to express is that NOT ALL HAS BEEN FULFILLED. Not yet.

We are living among the people of that generation. For that generation is collective with out doubt.

Jesus was not talking about the world at large he was talking to his disciples and as such, unless he stated otherwise would be understood that by This Generation he meant those who were now following him as well as the expanded growth of those believing in him down through the centuries.

Knowing what was to happen in 70AD Jesus gave a warning to those followers what to do... not to the public at large.
His people were .

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

And they did flee.... but that is another point for another day.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 07:45:32 by Rella »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 12:47:40 »
It seems you just mean that He is without a Body.  In truth, He has a body, and it is here in the world.  It's us.  We are the Body of Christ, and He works through us.
Those are two different meanings given to the word body.  But then you knew that.  The different meanings in Greek are very similar to the different meanings in English.

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 13:43:30 »
You're beating a straw man to death RB that has nothing to do with the issue. Again I ask. How would Jesus have had to say it to satisfy you that He was saying those people would not die off completely till all was fulfilled?
John~you may think I'm beating a strawman ( straw man~either or I believe is acceptable ) because it is you whereas the real subject of the argument has not been addressed or refuted~but instead you in your mind have replaced the truth with a false understanding.

John, the context of Matthew 24 clearly tells us that Christ was speaking of latter-day events that would mark His coming as being at the doors

Also~the phrase~this generation is ALWAYS speaking of KIND not time when used by Jesus, John the Baptist, and even Moses of old:
Quote
Deuteronomy 32:5, verse 20, They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.........And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Read all of Deuteronomy~you will even find the exact same wording of THIS generation used by Moses and Joshua, and David not just once or twice but more. Psalms 95:10; 24:6 and when speaking of the very elect he said this: Psalm 14:5; 112:2, etc. Please take time to read them.

One of the errors folks like you make is divorcing Matthew 24 first thirty verses with the last of the Chapter and the whole of Chapter 25...you are ripping asunder what God has joined together as ONE discourse with ONE main message....latter days events that will mark the state of the world at that time! I see the devil's desire to stamp Matthew 24 as FULLFILLED 70 A.D.! and many have fallen for that lie~ very sad to say and being an eye witness of this, even by believers who believe and fear the Lord~but are unconverted on these all-important chapters that are connected with the book of Daniel; 2nd Thessalonians 2; and the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

You MUST approach Matthew 24 "without" a preconceived mind thought that the first thirty scriptures of Matthew 24 have anything to do with 70 A.D. theory and theory it IS as far as having any connection to BIBLE Prophecy and the coming of Jesus Christ and the end of the world

Btw John, I'm giving all the proof so ( I truly have not even begun to give proof, because there's so much more to come ) far while you are just making accusations with no bible proof to support your THEN PRESENT TIME GENERATION of Jesus' days. You are allowing a common meaning of a word to confuse you of a bible doctrine being taught by of all people,.......The Lord of Glory.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 04:06:50 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 04:32:51 »
Generation

Strongs
Quote
a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons)
Thayer
Quote
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
Webster
Quote
The people of the same period, or living at the same time.

Now as to the apocalyptic language in the chapter. It represents temporal judgments in which God judges one nation by sending another nation against it.

Quote
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
(Mat 24:29-31)

Sun Darkened -
Quote
The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.
(Joe 3:15)
Of God's judgment on the nations for their sins.

Deity coming in a cloud to judge. -
Quote
The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
(Isa 19:1)
Of God's judgment against Egypt carried out by Babylon.

Gather God's people together -
Quote
"At that time I will bring you in, Even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth, When I restore your fortunes before your eyes," Says the LORD.
(Zep 3:20)
Of God restoring His people's fortunes after the Babylonian captivity.

These should be examples enough to prove that this language doesn't necessarily refer to the Second Coming, but to temporal judgments by God.


« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 04:46:14 by johntwayne »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 04:48:59 »
WE ARE of those people. WE ARE of That Generation Jesus was referring to.
Not so fast~slow down and listen carefully to Jesus' words.

Fish believe THIS generation has reference to the people LIVING when these things begin to come to pass in the latter days, neither you nor him are correct. This generation that Jesus said would not pass is speaking of the wicked and evil men that shall arise in GREAT numbers as this world comes to its end. Both Paul and John said the very same thing, just used a little different way of saying it.
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5~ "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Later we will prove that the man of sin is just what its name is saying to us. Briefly~ the MAN of sin....man OF SIN~is all men who instead of submitting to the scriptures they sit in God's temple (NT churches) and declared that they are God, and this they do, by preaching their OWN doctrines and rejecting the TRUTH that is not pleasing to them, etc.
Quote from: John the apostle that heard Matthew 24 from Jesus' own lips before it became part of the holy canon
1st John 2:18.19~"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
John helps us to understand that antichrist that shall come are people that were in HIS DAYS that went out from them, yet in the latter days of this world they come and STAY and drive the saints out! Truly Paul and John are just repeating what Christ taught in His Olivet discourse.

THIS generation is the very ones Christ is warning us that shall come saying Jesus is the Christ, but it is another jesus, another spirit, and certainly another gospel that men have come up with to satisfy its followers who are void of the Spirit of God.

This is the abomination standing where he ought NOT to stand that God shall make desolate at his coming.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 13:14~"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"
We who are in Judaea ~is another way of saying we who are in the temple where God is supposed to be worship and see these things, then we should flee out of the midst of the temple of God and those who are going in we should warn them NOT TO DO SO~at least the majority of them (churches).
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:21~Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
IF this was speaking of 70 A.D. as many believe then these warning would mean nothing, for if the Romans armies were ALREADY THERE, then it's too late to flee and no man in his right mind would ever enter into a city where it was ALREADY invaded and at the brink of being destroyed.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 04:51:44 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 05:05:16 »
In fact, the Roman army broke through to the temple and then withdrew. The Jewish Christians as a man fled the city so says the historians.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 07:30:13 by johntwayne »

Offline Rella

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 07:39:20 »

Quote
WE ARE of those people. WE ARE of That Generation Jesus was referring to.
Not so fast~slow down and listen carefully to Jesus' words.

Fish believe THIS generation has reference to the people LIVING when these things begin to come to pass in the latter days, neither you nor him are correct. This generation that Jesus said would not pass is speaking of the wicked and evil men that shall arise in GREAT numbers as this world comes to its end. Both Paul and John said the very same thing, just used a little different way of saying it.

It is possible you are correct in this.

Therefore I shall rephrase , and modify my reply, to read

We are living among the people of that generation.

But one must be aware that we are the generation of believers that came into being when Jesus first walked the earth and
belief in Him and understanding about who He was first appeared and has only increased over the millennia.... Is that not true?

As for the rest of your reply... not so.

You truly are sounding very like a few preterists I have known..... and not looking at what is unfolding in front of your eyes
even as we debate this ... but that is for another thread... not this
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 07:49:20 by Rella »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 21:54:42 »
Those are two different meanings given to the word body.  But then you knew that.  The different meanings in Greek are very similar to the different meanings in English.
No, same thing.  Same word.


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 22:18:13 »
This generation that Jesus said would not pass is speaking of the wicked and evil men that shall arise in GREAT numbers as this world comes to its end. Both Paul and John said the very same thing, just used a little different way of saying it.
It's almost like it was foretold, and they were referring to a specific prophesy...

9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise, And many shall be its deeds, And all its deeds shall be apostate.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 22:24:26 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline RB

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 04:15:08 »
Therefore I shall rephrase , and modify my reply, to read

We are living among the people of that generation.
True and there's much more of them than us and that's exactly what Jesus is speaking about in the Olivet discourse.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:39:20
But one must be aware that we are the generation of believers that came into being when Jesus first walked the earth and belief in Him and understanding about who He was first appeared and has only increased over the millennia.... Is that not true?
There are TWO generations of people living in this world~one is a chosen generation first seen in Abel; the other is a wicked, perverse, and crooked generation, whom God left in their sins~first seen in Can who was of that wicked One. The mystery of iniquity has been at work since the angels left their first estate and were left in chains of darkness ever since and have been at work doing their evil deeds since the fall of Adam and Eve, which I personally believe it all happen at the same time when they left their first estate and immediately caused the fall of Adam and Eve~another study for another day.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:39:20
As for the rest of your reply... not so.

You truly are sounding very like a few preterists I have known.....
Go ahead and tell us for we are discussing one of the most controversial prophecies in all of the word of God in the Olivet discourse.

I'm so far removed from being a preterist it would be very hard for anyone to connect me with them in any way possible. But, I'm also not a Premillennialist which would tempt them to connect me with the preterist.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 07:39:20
and not looking at what is unfolding in front of your eyes
even as we debate this ... but that is for another thread... not this
Rella, I am looking at the events around me, in the religious circles and this helps me GREATLY in seeing the truth of this wonderful discourse given by our Lord to WARN US of what is coming and to prepare us for the tribulation that is coming UPON THE VERY ELECT by the many false prophets and their followers that shall take over the churches of Christ/God in the latter days leading up to Christ's second coming.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:24,25~"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.
Verse 24 is the SUM of what Jesus has already said~so, the last days (the little season of Revelation 20) shall be flooded with false prophets, in so much as, IF it were possible the very elect would be deceived by them, but that's impossible thanks to the grace of God protecting them for Jesus' sake, or else they would be.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 04:17:15 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #33 on: Sun Jun 20, 2021 - 06:29:56 »
No, same thing.  Same word.
Same word, different meanings just as the web site displays. 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24 and its parallels in Mark and Luke
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 13:05:54 »
Same word, different meanings just as the web site displays.
Not really, but if Paul can't convince you then I doubt that I can. ::shrug::