GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Matthew 3:11  (Read 1873 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Matthew 3:11
« on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:00:32 »
In the context, John "saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them...", v7.


Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"




Lk 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.



(1) Why would John say to these Pharisees "I indeed baptize you with water" when John had not baptized them with water?

(2) The pronoun "you" appears in the verse twice.  Whom does this pronoun refer to?   Does it refer to the same persons both times?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Matthew 3:11
« on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:00:32 »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:11:42 »
In the context, John "saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them...", v7.


Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"




Lk 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.






(1) Why would John say to these Pharisees "I indeed baptize you with water" when John had not baptized them with water?

(2) The pronoun "you" appears in the verse twice.  Whom does this pronoun refer to?   Does it refer to the same persons both times?


Gomer he was only talking IN A GENERAL SENSE not specifically!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:11:42 »

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:15:20 »
In the context, John "saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them...", v7.


Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"




Lk 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.






(1) Why would John say to these Pharisees "I indeed baptize you with water" when John had not baptized them with water?

(2) The pronoun "you" appears in the verse twice.  Whom does this pronoun refer to?   Does it refer to the same persons both times?


Gomer he was only talking IN A GENERAL SENSE not specifically!


So both pronouns "you" are both being used in a general or generic sense, so we cannot really know from this context as to who the "yous" specifically refer to?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:15:20 »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:30:49 »
The word "qualification" should by itself send up a red flag and be a big clue to why myself and some others consistently try to wean you from legalism

But alas...

We see how legalism can quickly turn it's ugly head and bite the heck out of those who adhere to it most

DISQUALIFYING the unqualified even though they're on the front line, running point  toting the flag



 ::holdingupflag::


I'm a real American sir and you are not!


if you get my drift  ::shrug::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 13, 2012 - 17:30:49 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 14, 2012 - 06:04:03 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 14, 2012 - 06:04:03 »



Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 14, 2012 - 12:09:38 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::



Mt 3:7ff "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


From the context, these Pharisees and Sadducees did not make any request to be baptized, as Luke wrote they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30.  John was condeming them (generation of vipers) for rejecting his baptism.

 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 14, 2012 - 12:09:38 »

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1079
  • Manna: 31
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 14, 2012 - 21:21:10 »
The "you" in Matt 3:11 most certainly is very general, meaning all or some of you people who may or may not be hearing the preaching at that moment. John's statement that he baptized with water, but that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit was probably preached many times all over Judea. Luke records that John made this statement to "them all". The Gospel of John records that statement without the "yous", saying that he (John the Baptist) was sent to baptize with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #7 on: Thu Mar 15, 2012 - 21:32:56 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::



Mt 3:7ff "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


From the context, these Pharisees and Sadducees did not make any request to be baptized, as Luke wrote they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30.  John was condeming them (generation of vipers) for rejecting his baptism.

 


He says it right in the scripture you quoted....................".......who hath warne you to flee from the wrath to come........."  referring to the judgement to come, and that even they "the generation of vipers" could receive forgiveness for their sins............don't see why we have to make a big deal about this one, at least in my uneducated opinion I suppose......


Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 11:28:27 »
The "you" in Matt 3:11 most certainly is very general, meaning all or some of you people who may or may not be hearing the preaching at that moment. John's statement that he baptized with water, but that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit was probably preached many times all over Judea. Luke records that John made this statement to "them all". The Gospel of John records that statement without the "yous", saying that he (John the Baptist) was sent to baptize with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.


Both 'yous' are used in a general sense, so it cannot be determined from this text who they 'yous' are.

The reason for me starting this thread is that I have seen many try and use Mt 3:11 as their 'proof text' that they have been baptized with the Holy Ghost.  They somehow make themselves the second 'you' in this verse.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 11:28:27 »

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #9 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 11:32:02 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::



Mt 3:7ff "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


From the context, these Pharisees and Sadducees did not make any request to be baptized, as Luke wrote they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30.  John was condeming them (generation of vipers) for rejecting his baptism.

 


He says it right in the scripture you quoted....................".......who hath warne you to flee from the wrath to come........."  referring to the judgement to come, and that even they "the generation of vipers" could receive forgiveness for their sins............don't see why we have to make a big deal about this one, at least in my uneducated opinion I suppose......



John is condemning them for rejecting him, John tells them to "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" but nowhere in the context did they request John to baptize them.

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #10 on: Sat Mar 17, 2012 - 05:40:23 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::



Mt 3:7ff "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


From the context, these Pharisees and Sadducees did not make any request to be baptized, as Luke wrote they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30.  John was condeming them (generation of vipers) for rejecting his baptism.

 


He says it right in the scripture you quoted....................".......who hath warne you to flee from the wrath to come........."  referring to the judgement to come, and that even they "the generation of vipers" could receive forgiveness for their sins............don't see why we have to make a big deal about this one, at least in my uneducated opinion I suppose......



John is condemning them for rejecting him, John tells them to "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" but nowhere in the context did they request John to baptize them.


 ::headscratch::
I didn't say they did request John to baptize them..........but many of the "YOU" who came out into the wilderness did request to be baptized.  And, yet, even they (the generation of vipers) COULD be forgiven.  And back to the orrigional question, the "you" was (as has been stated) a generalization statement.........I just don't see the big deal.

Do you have some special understanding that you are keeping secreted away or something?
 ::headscratch:: ::shrug::

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #11 on: Sat Mar 17, 2012 - 10:54:09 »
..........just my thoughts, but it seems clear to me that John was speaking of all the Jews who came out to him, heard him preach, and requested to be baptized.................

 ::reading:: ::pondering:: ::nodding::



Mt 3:7ff "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


From the context, these Pharisees and Sadducees did not make any request to be baptized, as Luke wrote they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30.  John was condeming them (generation of vipers) for rejecting his baptism.

 


He says it right in the scripture you quoted....................".......who hath warne you to flee from the wrath to come........."  referring to the judgement to come, and that even they "the generation of vipers" could receive forgiveness for their sins............don't see why we have to make a big deal about this one, at least in my uneducated opinion I suppose......



John is condemning them for rejecting him, John tells them to "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" but nowhere in the context did they request John to baptize them.


 ::headscratch::
I didn't say they did request John to baptize them..........but many of the "YOU" who came out into the wilderness did request to be baptized.  And, yet, even they (the generation of vipers) COULD be forgiven.  And back to the orrigional question, the "you" was (as has been stated) a generalization statement.........I just don't see the big deal.

Do you have some special understanding that you are keeping secreted away or something?
 ::headscratch:: ::shrug::

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #12 on: Sat Mar 17, 2012 - 11:14:36 »
Quote:

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.
================================================================

He is JUST making a "general statement" speaking to everyone, not just those you keep referring to....................I just don't see what point you are trying to make?

 ::pondering:: ::headscratch::

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #13 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 10:43:30 »
Quote:

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.
================================================================

He is JUST making a "general statement" speaking to everyone, not just those you keep referring to....................I just don't see what point you are trying to make?

 ::pondering:: ::headscratch::

Mt 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


So John was speaking to these Pharisees and Saducees when he said "I indeed baptize you with water".

Since he did not baptize those Pharisees and Saducees with water, John is using the pronoun "you" both times in a general, generic sense.  So from this context it cannot be exactly determined who the pronoun "you" refers to therefore people cannot make themselves the second 'you' and claim that Christ baptized them with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Offline Norton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1079
  • Manna: 31
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #14 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 10:06:28 »
Quote:

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.
================================================================

He is JUST making a "general statement" speaking to everyone, not just those you keep referring to....................I just don't see what point you are trying to make?

 ::pondering:: ::headscratch::

Mt 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


So John was speaking to these Pharisees and Saducees when he said "I indeed baptize you with water".

Since he did not baptize those Pharisees and Saducees with water, John is using the pronoun "you" both times in a general, generic sense.  So from this context it cannot be exactly determined who the pronoun "you" refers to therefore people cannot make themselves the second 'you' and claim that Christ baptized them with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Using the same logic, those who John later baptized in water could not make themselves the first "you".

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #15 on: Thu Mar 22, 2012 - 04:54:06 »
Quote:

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.
================================================================

He is JUST making a "general statement" speaking to everyone, not just those you keep referring to....................I just don't see what point you are trying to make?

 ::pondering:: ::headscratch::

Mt 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


So John was speaking to these Pharisees and Saducees when he said "I indeed baptize you with water".

Since he did not baptize those Pharisees and Saducees with water, John is using the pronoun "you" both times in a general, generic sense.  So from this context it cannot be exactly determined who the pronoun "you" refers to therefore people cannot make themselves the second 'you' and claim that Christ baptized them with the Holy Spirit and fire.



 ::smile::, I've been wondering all along where you were going with this thread..................as you were very careful to keep your intent/point secret until now..............
 ::smile::

You may believe as you wish, but as for me, I believe in Jesus the Christ, my Lord and Saviour, and it's in Him that I will place my faith, trust and love, not John the Baptist.


Offline jojo50

  • Matt.12:50-For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
  • Manna: 10
  • Gender: Female
  • servant of Jehovah ,believer in Jesus words
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #16 on: Thu Mar 22, 2012 - 15:43:23 »

Those  Pharisees and Sadducees wouldn’t have let John baptize them. Because his teachings wasn’t totally like theirs. Just like today, those ministers didn’t want to believe his teachings. Even though John’s teachings were the totally truth. So John is speaking In general, or towards all mankind.

John was to baptize men using water, he basically got men ready for Jesus. Jesus will have Jehovah God’s power, (NOT another being), when teaching man what his Father wants, (John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you).
[/color]  ::smile::

Offline Gomer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2383
  • Manna: 28
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Matthew 3:11
« Reply #17 on: Fri Mar 23, 2012 - 11:42:44 »
Quote:

In the context of Mt 3:11 John is speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees that rejected his baptism.  John said to those Jews that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water. Why would John say to these Pharisees and Saducess that rejected his baptism that he baptized them with water?  No one in the context requested to be baptized, but the context has John telling people he had not baptized that he did baptize them with water.
================================================================

He is JUST making a "general statement" speaking to everyone, not just those you keep referring to....................I just don't see what point you are trying to make?

 ::pondering:: ::headscratch::

Mt 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"


So John was speaking to these Pharisees and Saducees when he said "I indeed baptize you with water".

Since he did not baptize those Pharisees and Saducees with water, John is using the pronoun "you" both times in a general, generic sense.  So from this context it cannot be exactly determined who the pronoun "you" refers to therefore people cannot make themselves the second 'you' and claim that Christ baptized them with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Using the same logic, those who John later baptized in water could not make themselves the first "you".

The issue is in the immediate context.  John was speaking to the Pharisees and said "I baptize you".  Since he had not baptized them in water it cannot be determined from the immediate context who the "you' is in verse 11.  In the immediate context John was speaking to the Pharisees when he used the pronoun 'you', he was not speaking to those he might have baptized later with the pronoun 'you'.  John is simply announcing he baptized with water but Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire but it cannot be determined from the immediate context who the 'yous' refer to.

 

     
anything