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Mysterious Passages
« on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 19:44:18 »
David,

In all sincerity, do you KNOW the answers to those questions?

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« on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 19:44:18 »

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:31:23 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ June 24 2002,12:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In all sincerity, do you KNOW the answers to those questions?[/quote]
Hello B.H.,

I don't know the answer to all of those questions.  I wouldn't ask the questions if I knew the answers.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

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« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:31:23 »

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 22:26:52 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now something totally off the subject. When you made fun of, was it Bob? for a typo one day,...[/quote]

seekr, hi! I can't remember for certain, Bobby V. maybe? Forget what it was, just that it was funny. Yeah, moving the fingers over on the keyboard just one way or the other can create some interesting variations! LOL about "Mole".

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« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 22:26:52 »

Offline mike

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« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 05:45:02 »
Seekr,

If you want to talk, I'm listening!

Mole
 :D

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« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 05:45:02 »

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 18:45:07 »
Hello Everyone,

The thought that understand the Scriptures is the first presumption of religious people.  People read their translations of the Scriptures as if God is engaged in casual conversation with them, attributing normal meaning to normal-sounded phrases while utterly missing the profound implications of the words themselves.  

An example of a myserious passage is found very early in the Scriptures.  In Genesis 1:3-4, "Then God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness."

Now when reading this passage, the following questions naturally arise:

1. When God spoke, was God speaking to the inanimate universe, Himself or to the angels?

2. When God spoke, was God speaking ancient Hebrew or was He speaking in some other language?

3. When God called this new creation "light" what exactly did He mean?

4. What was created when God created light?  Was God creating the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum here, or was God creating the whole electromagnetic spectrum?

5. Was the light created in Genesis 1:3 created ex nihilo, or was light produced in response to the physical processes which govern the creation and transmission of light?

6. Was the light created on Day 3 present throughout the Universe or was it localized?

7. To what extent does the light of Day 3 correspond to the Cosmic Background Radiation?

8. When God said that light was "good" exactly what did God mean?

9. God could perceive the Universe prior to the existence of light.  Yes or No?

10. When God separated the light from the darkness, exactly what did God do?

11. Was the separation of light from darkness the division between particles which transmitted light and particles which absorbed light?

12.  Was the separation of light from darkness the creation of physical bodies which blocked light with their shadow?

13. According to the Scriptures, is light a wave or a particle, or both?

I think that these questions demonstrate that a full understanding of the Scriptures requires a knowledge of physics, quantum mechanics and a healthy familiarity with philosophy.

Sincerely,

David Mathews
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« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 18:45:07 »



Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 19:25:40 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ June 24 2002,11:59)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Dave, keep on using the deep end of the pool.  I'll come down here with you as often as I can; I enjoy it down there... but I think I'll spend the rest of my time paddling in the sandy shallows, serving those who don't even yet know there is a deep end.[/quote]
Hello Janine,

The shallows are a great place for relaxing, but the real work happens in the deep end.  That's where we find out if we understand things, or if our religion is merely dogmatic assumptions.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 19:25:40 »

Offline janine

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« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 19:58:21 »
Nah, Dave, I've gotta disagree.  While I would never pooh-pooh the deep end of the pool (oh, yuck, there went my appetite for lunch...), all the "real" work of "proofing" the faith happens in the shallows, where the loving and serving and teaching happens, the binding of the wounded and the patching-up of the broken hearts.

Notice I said proofing, as in refining, assaying, etc., not proving, which is another thing entirely, and of limited value when the businessman lies bleeding in the ditch while the religious types pass on by.

Offline janine

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« Reply #7 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 20:12:03 »
People who speak in metaphors shouldn't throw glass? :D

He who lives by the metaphor dies in the deep end? :p

Hoo boy, my blood sugar levels must be crashing.  Lunchtime, errand time, 'bye y'all, "see" ya tonight I hope...

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:43:33 »
Job chapter 38

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:43:33 »

Offline seekr

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« Reply #9 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:49:47 »
Barb, yeah!

Now something totally off the subject. When you made fun of, was it Bob? for a typo one day, I laughed really hard. Well the other day I went to post something to Mike (didn't, though) and the way I sat down at the computer, I accidentally wrote Mole and thought of how you would have responded. Look at the keys and see how being just a little off can wreak some good laughter. Hmmm--might be a metaphor in there somewhere. LOL

Maurine

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #10 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 22:23:38 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Would you explain the relevance of Job 38 to questions regarding Genesis 1:3-4?[/quote]

Nope. I don't need to explain it.  You can read it and let God explain it.
I read the thread here and that scripture immediately came to my mind.

Offline OldDad

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« Reply #11 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 04:31:53 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think that these questions demonstrate that a full understanding of the Scriptures requires a knowledge of physics, quantum mechanics and a healthy familiarity with philosophy.

[/quote]

Sounds like the old "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" and "Can God make a pizza so big He couldn't eat it?" questions we used to ask in Jr. High.

The Bible is so understandable with out any knowledge of anything other than basic English, if we keep a few principles in mind:  Pay attention to context...Find out who is speaking, who is being spoken to, and the reason/purpose of the communication...The simplest, most obvious meaning of a passage is to be preferred...Interpret literally unless the context indicates otherwise...Interpret scripture with scripture.  Things like that don't require advanced degrees.

OD

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #12 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 05:15:19 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (OldDad @ June 24 2002,9:31)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Bible is so understandable with out any knowledge of anything other than basic English, if we keep a few principles in mind:  Pay attention to context...Find out who is speaking, who is being spoken to, and the reason/purpose of the communication...The simplest, most obvious meaning of a passage is to be preferred...Interpret literally unless the context indicates otherwise...Interpret scripture with scripture.  Things like that don't require advanced degrees[/quote]
Hello Olddad,

You are making a good point but my post is a warning against those who approach this text either too literalistically or as possessing scientific implications.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Offline seekr

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« Reply #13 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 18:40:58 »
I do not interpret scripture and none of us should try figuring it out--that is why the differing denominations. It takes hearing from God. I used to try figuring it out and God would reveal something to me as I read and the leaders would preach some of the things we just take for granted as truth (those things passed down for years) and now God has destroyed all of man's structures and He leads me to what His word says. It is there for the taking as He said He would teach us. And as the Spirit reveals the word to us, we share THAT with one another and the Spirit will bear witness. We keep adding things up and start arguing amongst ourselves when truth awaits us with open arms. I do not have any answers without Him, anymore. I cannot even comment on some things if God hasn't shown me yet and then I will tell you my opinion and state it as thus and in that I may be wrong until God shows me His truth. He can come in like a flood or a soft whisper--just lean in and listen. He has not changed.

And Mol...I mean Mike, it was on another topic and I will post later, lost the first post.

Maurine

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« Reply #14 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 06:01:10 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]my post is a warning against those who approach this text either too literalistically or as possessing scientific implications.
[/quote]

OK, that does clear it up some for me.  I believe the Biblical account of creation is true.  I do this by faith.  Further, I always caution others that the Bible is not a science text, and should not be made nor expected to perform like one.

David, could you share your thoughts on Phillip Johnson?

Thanks,

OD

Offline seekr

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« Reply #15 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 20:06:36 »
I do not believe that the deep end of the pool is about how much knowledge we possess--that which puffs up--but how in tune we are with the Spirit and what He will speak into our lives as we follow Him and how He will use that in our willingness to bear the cross. I may live in the deep end with God holding my head above the water.

People who speak in metaphors (including me)...

Maurine

Offline janine

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 18:59:45 »
I've thought about a lot of that stuff, and explained some of it satisfactorily to myself.  Some of the little I know of what Einstein said, for example, helps me to understand God's view of time, and God's omnipresence/omnipotence/omniscience.

But, while I revel in the deep end of the theological pool (Hah! Not that I get very far down into those murky depths...), the actual day-to-day living out of God's gracious salvation in my life takes place in the warm, sunlit shallows.

No one ever born in the flesh had to put more deep theological stuff on the back burner than Jesus did.  He made the main pillars of His Truth manifest in deceptively simple things, like raising the dead son of a widow (her only support) back to life, or disturbing the housekeeping efforts of demons...

Dave, keep on using the deep end of the pool.  I'll come down there with you as often as I can; I enjoy it down there... but I think I'll spend the rest of my time paddling in the sandy shallows, serving those who don't even yet know there is a deep end.

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #17 on: Mon Jun 24, 2002 - 21:54:57 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Barb1957 @ June 24 2002,2:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Job chapter 38[/quote]
Hello Barb,

Would you explain the relevance of Job 38 to questions regarding Genesis 1:3-4?

Thanks,

David Mathews

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« Reply #18 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 05:10:11 »
OldDad

I agree.  We can get carried away requiring more & more knowledge about a variety of things to understand what God is telling us.  Additional knowldge may prove the Bible right but it isn't necessary to know God.  Look at the 12 apostles, they were not learned men.  Of course the had a great teacher but then we have the same teacher.

Bill

Offline Beverly Nuckols (hocndoc)

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« Reply #19 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 07:50:37 »
The difference is between "requiring" knowledge in order to accept someone and appreciating the knowledge they have or loving them in spite of its lack.

Recognising a Christian should not require anything other than asking, "Do you believe that Jesus is the Saving Son of God (or Messiah)?"  There's a little bit of teaching necessary if the other person does not believe. The teaching can be as simple as Steven's speech/testimony before he was stoned all the way to the entire 4 Gospels.  But anything more is for the strengthening of the believer and can be done when he or she has  actually believed.

I'm not saying that we should just abandon someone after the belief, but that as soon as he says he believes in the Messiah, then we should believe him and treat him as a fellow child of God as we continue to  teach him - and show him - more fully what it means to be a Christian.

I'm also not saying we should allow him to belittle us and our teaching in front of other non-believers or those too young to know what they believe, yet.

The teaching first begins with what the non-believer sees in us. Does he see love for God and our neighbor?    Does he see eager, students and teachers, constantly submitting to Christ and each other in order to build up? Or puffed up divisions with each side condemning the other for things an unbeliever can't understand?

 How can we dismiss accusations of the Inquisition, if we act like Inquisitors?

And David,  whenever I'm stumped, I remember that I AM  *IS*  And I rely on Job 38 a lot, myself.

"While the angels rejoiced and the morning stars sang!"

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #20 on: Tue Jun 25, 2002 - 14:52:11 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Beverly Nuckols (hocndoc) @ June 25 2002,00:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And David,  whenever I'm stumped, I remember that I AM  *IS*  And I rely on Job 38 a lot, myself.[/quote]
Hello Beverly,

I was not criticizing the use of Job 38,  just encouraging people to state what they are thinking.  I love the book of Job, it has always been my favorite book in the Bible.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews

 

     
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