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Offline 4WD

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Obedience To The Gospel
« on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 07:13:36 »
Earlier in another topic I posted the following:

Paul, indeed, has excluded "works of law" from being things we do to be saved. "Works of law" clearly are "things we do" that do not result in being saved.  However, there is  another category of “things we do” (generic works) that do apply to salvation, acts to which Paul would not apply the term “works.” These are acts of obedience that can be called “obedience to the gospel.” Where does this phrase come from? Now Paul doesn't actually use that phrase. However, a similar phrase—“ obedient to the faith”— is used in Acts 6: 7 by Luke the author of Acts. The Apostle Peter refers to “those who do not obey the gospel of God” in 1 Peter 4: 17.

....what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Pet 4:17)

This shows that the phrase is actually Biblical. But how can we relate it to Paul? Consider what Paul says in a couple of places: Romans 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8. In both places, like Peter, Paul speaks negatively of those who do not obey the gospel. Romans 10: 16 is often “weirdly” translated in ways that obscure the straightforward statement, e.g., “they did not all heed the good news” (NASB), “not all … accepted the good news” (NIV), “they did not all hearken to the glad tidings” (ASV).  But what does Paul actually say? Speaking of Jewish unbelievers, he simply says, “They did not all obey the gospel.” Similarly, in 2 Thessalonians 1: 8 he says that at His return Jesus will deal out retribution “to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”

(KJV) "But they have not all obeyed the gospel..."(Rom 10:16)

(KJV)"...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them who know not God and that who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...."(2 Thess 1:8-9)

We learn two things from these texts. One, if there is such a thing as disobeying the gospel, there must be such a thing as obeying the gospel. “Obedience to the gospel” must have been a concept in the mind of Paul. Two, both of these texts say that those who do not obey the gospel are lost, and it is emphatically implied that they are lost because they did not obey the gospel. This leads to the necessary conclusion that obedience to the gospel is necessary for salvation. This shows that “obedience to the gospel” cannot be the same thing as “works” as Paul uses the term, because the former is required for salvation and the latter is excluded from the salvation event.

Exactly what is “obedience to the gospel”? Obedience is certainly “something we do,” so it would be “works” in the generic sense, i.e., in the same sense that Jesus used the terminology in John 6: 26-29. Also, as obedience, it is something we do in response to a command or commands. This shows that what the Bible counts as “gospel” is more than just the gospel FACTS of 1 Corinthians 15: 1ff., and more than just the gospel PROMISES implied by “the hope of the gospel” in Colossians 1: 23. If the gospel is something that must be obeyed, then the gospel must have commands (imperatives, instructions) of some kind. RB, what are those commands?  What are those things we must do?

I will just leave it there for now, but it is perfectly obvious that there are things that we must do in order that we be saved and not condemned.  And those things we must do are not counted by Paul as "works". 


I received no response to that posting; therefore I have started new topic which I would appreciate your thoughts.

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Obedience To The Gospel
« on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 07:13:36 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:05:22 »
Sounds good to me.

Offline GB

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:24:00 »
Earlier in another topic I posted the following:

Paul, indeed, has excluded "works of law" from being things we do to be saved. "Works of law" clearly are "things we do" that do not result in being saved.  However, there is  another category of “things we do” (generic works) that do apply to salvation, acts to which Paul would not apply the term “works.” These are acts of obedience that can be called “obedience to the gospel.” Where does this phrase come from? Now Paul doesn't actually use that phrase. However, a similar phrase—“ obedient to the faith”— is used in Acts 6: 7 by Luke the author of Acts. The Apostle Peter refers to “those who do not obey the gospel of God” in 1 Peter 4: 17.

....what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Pet 4:17)

This shows that the phrase is actually Biblical. But how can we relate it to Paul? Consider what Paul says in a couple of places: Romans 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8. In both places, like Peter, Paul speaks negatively of those who do not obey the gospel. Romans 10: 16 is often “weirdly” translated in ways that obscure the straightforward statement, e.g., “they did not all heed the good news” (NASB), “not all … accepted the good news” (NIV), “they did not all hearken to the glad tidings” (ASV).  But what does Paul actually say? Speaking of Jewish unbelievers, he simply says, “They did not all obey the gospel.” Similarly, in 2 Thessalonians 1: 8 he says that at His return Jesus will deal out retribution “to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”

(KJV) "But they have not all obeyed the gospel..."(Rom 10:16)

(KJV)"...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them who know not God and that who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...."(2 Thess 1:8-9)

We learn two things from these texts. One, if there is such a thing as disobeying the gospel, there must be such a thing as obeying the gospel. “Obedience to the gospel” must have been a concept in the mind of Paul. Two, both of these texts say that those who do not obey the gospel are lost, and it is emphatically implied that they are lost because they did not obey the gospel. This leads to the necessary conclusion that obedience to the gospel is necessary for salvation. This shows that “obedience to the gospel” cannot be the same thing as “works” as Paul uses the term, because the former is required for salvation and the latter is excluded from the salvation event.

Exactly what is “obedience to the gospel”? Obedience is certainly “something we do,” so it would be “works” in the generic sense, i.e., in the same sense that Jesus used the terminology in John 6: 26-29. Also, as obedience, it is something we do in response to a command or commands. This shows that what the Bible counts as “gospel” is more than just the gospel FACTS of 1 Corinthians 15: 1ff., and more than just the gospel PROMISES implied by “the hope of the gospel” in Colossians 1: 23. If the gospel is something that must be obeyed, then the gospel must have commands (imperatives, instructions) of some kind. RB, what are those commands?  What are those things we must do?

I will just leave it there for now, but it is perfectly obvious that there are things that we must do in order that we be saved and not condemned.  And those things we must do are not counted by Paul as "works". 


I received no response to that posting; therefore I have started new topic which I would appreciate your thoughts.

It seems that we must understand what Paul means when he says "the Gospel of Christ" in the first place.

Rom. 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Is. 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. 11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

But who believed the "good news"?

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

It seems the Gospel of the Christ, according to Paul, was taught in the Law and Prophets.

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (Who hath believed our report)

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Ps. 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Are these the "fathers" who didn't "obey the Gospel of Christ" as Paul said?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 So didn't Isaiah also preach the "Gospel of Christ"? And who was it that "didn't believe the Gospel", was it not those who heard it first? In fact Paul said these are our examples so we don't "disobey the Gospel" the same way they did.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Were they not overthrown because they didn't "Obey the Gospel of Christ"?

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Listen to Paul here as he prepares to teach those in Rome the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Old Testament)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Isn't Paul saying again that it is in the Gospel of Christ where the Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness of men? That within the Gospel of Christ it is written "The just shall live by Faith"?

What about Zechariahs? Did he "obey the Gospel of Christ"?

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Was Abraham and the King of Sodom also taught the Gospel of Christ?

Gen. 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

and again;

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

How can I read these Word's of God and not conclude that Israel was overthrown in the wilderness because they, who were also taught the Gospel of Christ, refused to obey it.





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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:24:00 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 15:40:47 »
How can I read these Word's of God and not conclude that Israel was overthrown in the wilderness because they, who were also taught the Gospel of Christ, refused to obey it.
I know it was too much to hope for, but I really had hoped that neither you nor Michael would enter this discussion.  Seems that nearly every time either of you and especially if both of you get involved then all hope for meaningful discussion goes right out the door.

So with that I will simply bow out of this one even though it started it.  So you have at it.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 15:40:47 »

Offline lea

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 18:53:26 »
It seems that we must understand what Paul means when he says "the Gospel of Christ" in the first place.

Rom. 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Is. 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. 11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

But who believed the "good news"?

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

It seems the Gospel of the Christ, according to Paul, was taught in the Law and Prophets.

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (Who hath believed our report)

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Ps. 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Are these the "fathers" who didn't "obey the Gospel of Christ" as Paul said?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 So didn't Isaiah also preach the "Gospel of Christ"? And who was it that "didn't believe the Gospel", was it not those who heard it first? In fact Paul said these are our examples so we don't "disobey the Gospel" the same way they did.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Were they not overthrown because they didn't "Obey the Gospel of Christ"?

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Listen to Paul here as he prepares to teach those in Rome the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Old Testament)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Isn't Paul saying again that it is in the Gospel of Christ where the Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness of men? That within the Gospel of Christ it is written "The just shall live by Faith"?

What about Zechariahs? Did he "obey the Gospel of Christ"?

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Was Abraham and the King of Sodom also taught the Gospel of Christ?

Gen. 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

and again;

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

How can I read these Word's of God and not conclude that Israel was overthrown in the wilderness because they, who were also taught the Gospel of Christ, refused to obey it.
Nice. Heb.4:#3 sums it up for little ol' me.
Quote
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 18:57:29 by lea »

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 18:53:26 »



Offline yogi bear

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #5 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 06:43:22 »
In reading the word I find some commands that were recorded as what is expected of me to receive the grace of God. What God has asked of me to accept his grace. I see there is a plan set in place for me to enter into this New Covenant with God.


John 3:16 (KJV)
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Romans 10:8-15 (KJV)
8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)
15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:37-41 (KJV)
37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:47 (KJV)
47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Romans 6:3-18 (KJV)
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.




Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Please note that the Gospel of Christ and its expected response was first preached in Acts 2  when the doors to the church was opened for the first time the beginning of the new covenant and how God added to the church is told there as well.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #5 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 06:43:22 »

Offline RB

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #6 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 07:07:57 »
RB, what are those commands?  What are those things we must do?
Just saw this for the first time, sorry I have not before today. I will read everything that has been posted sometime today and will gladly respond back as you requested.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #7 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 07:21:02 »
So with that I will simply bow out of this one even though it started it.  So you have at it.
4WD please do not bow out~I do agree that every time GB enters he said the same old thing that he has said previously in other threads. I would not mind it so much if he could forbear using the same old words over and over again~Michael contributes and always not with the same old sermon like so many preachers do~they just heat it a little and add salt and pepper here and there, yet say the same things again, much like what the writer in Hebrews 6 said.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:1-6~"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Certain doctrines SHOULD NOT BE REPEATED OVER AND OVER again, especially to the SAME PEOPLE seeing it is IMPOSSIBLE to convert them to the very fundamental doctrines of the faith that we teach to newborn babes in Christ~that was ONCE preached to them. By doing so, would hinder others from going on unto eating the meat of the word of God.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 07:26:23 by RB »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #8 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:12:05 »
Ephesians 2:10 says we were created y Jesus Christ to walk in good works.

Those works neither obtain salvation or continue us in the state of salvation.  They are evidence of faith in Christ as per James as mere mental assent is even shared by demons.

Focusing on what we must do makes works a chore and is self focusing which cheapens God's grace.  Rather we should focus on what God did for us and walk His path.  Both may lead to works according to what scriptures teach, but only one perspective or heart condition is correct.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #8 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:12:05 »

Offline GB

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #9 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:18:50 »
Nice. Heb.4:#3 sums it up for little ol' me.

Yes, those who believe do enter into HIS Rest.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #10 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:42:52 »
Ephesians 2:10 says we were created y Jesus Christ to walk in good works.

Those works neither obtain salvation or continue us in the state of salvation.  They are evidence of faith in Christ as per James as mere mental assent is even shared by demons.

Focusing on what we must do makes works a chore and is self focusing which cheapens God's grace.  Rather we should focus on what God did for us and walk His path.  Both may lead to works according to what scriptures teach, but only one perspective or heart condition is correct.
So then what do you get from this: (KJV)"...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them who know not God and that who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power...."(2 Thess 1:8-9)

The obvious implication is that those who obey the gospel of our Lord will not be punished with everlasting destruction...  So then I ask again, what is the gospel of our Lord that we should obey in order to not be punished with the everlasting destruction.  That seems to me to be a fair question and the answer to which we should all know.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #11 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:51:03 »
author=yogi bear link=topic=105730.msg1055160402#msg1055160402 date=1586087002]


Quote
Please note that the Gospel of Christ and its expected response was first preached in Acts 2  when the doors to the church was opened for the first time the beginning of the new covenant and how God added to the church is told there as well.

How do you reconcile the following scriptures then?

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Who is the "Them" here?

Ex. 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Is this Rock not the Christ Himself? Are these not the "Them" that heard the Gospel of Christ, but didn't mix the hearing with Belief/Faith?


Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Where is it written "The Just shall live by Faith"? Where is the "Therein" where the Righteousness of God is revealed?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Where is the Wrath of God Revealed?

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Who is the "Them" here? Where did God show them these things? In The Gospel of Christ, Yes?

Did God share with Zechariahs and Simeon the Gospel of Christ? Did they not mix Faith with the hearing? Did they not know Jesus when HE came?

I understand that the generally accepted religious view is the one you posted Yogi. But given all the warnings regarding religious men, and these scriptures, there are many more, how can you say the Gospel of Christ was first preached in Acts 2?


Offline 4WD

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #12 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 08:56:32 »
Here again, I know I should do this and I will regret it, but....
.....how can you say the Gospel of Christ was first preached in Acts 2?
And what specifically do you think is the "Gospel of Christ".  Personally I think you haven't a clue what that even is.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #13 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 10:10:21 »
Here again, I know I should do this and I will regret it, but....And what specifically do you think is the "Gospel of Christ".  Personally I think you haven't a clue what that even is.

Well I posted some of the Word's of the Bible regarding the Gospel of Christ and asked, what I believe to be, valid questions. I tend to try and allow the scriptures to lead me to wherever they lead me, regardless of where that is.
 
 It seems that before we can know God's definition of the Gospel of Christ, we should first determine, by God's Word, where it is found.

There are those who believe the Gospel of Christ didn't exist until after the New Church gathered on their first Pentecost. But many Scriptures seem to disagree with this popular doctrine, just as you have pointed out many times that the Scriptures don't support Calvin's teaching on "predestination" or the popular religious doctrine of "Total Depravity", which I too, have found to be unsupported by scripture.

I'm not here to push this belief or that, rather, to trust the scriptures to lead us to Biblical truth, even if it exposes a deception within us, or our belief system. Actually, "especially" if they expose an error in our belief.

So please, if you want to discuss the topic of your OP, answer those relevant questions I asked, and see if we can come to an agreement, as we did on other popular doctrines taught by various religions.


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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #14 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 10:34:20 »
So please, if you want to discuss the topic of your OP, answer those relevant questions I asked, and see if we can come to an agreement, as we did on other popular doctrines taught by various religions.
Once you tell me what you think the Gospel of Christ that we should obey, then perhaps we can continue.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #15 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 12:34:47 »
Read Romans 10:16 in the original Greek, it doesn't mean OBEY.  ὑπήκουσαν has to do with hearing.  The leading idea is that some people refuse to LISTEN to the gospel, or RECEIVE it.  As the prophet Isaiah says, "who hath BELIEVED our report?"

Jarrod

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #16 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 12:52:47 »
I know it was too much to hope for, but I really had hoped that neither you nor Michael would enter this discussion.  Seems that nearly every time either of you and especially if both of you get involved then all hope for meaningful discussion goes right out the door.

So with that I will simply bow out of this one even though it started it.  So you have at it.
I read it just now. Have for yourself a meaningful discussion. The way it is, you believe that only you can have a meaningful discussion, but only with a few, of your choosing. Well...

You have it all 4WD. I am out of here.

Offline GB

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #17 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 13:04:26 »
Read Romans 10:16 in the original Greek, it doesn't mean OBEY.  ὑπήκουσαν has to do with hearing.  The leading idea is that some people refuse to LISTEN to the gospel, or RECEIVE it.  As the prophet Isaiah says, "who hath BELIEVED our report?"

Jarrod

Yes, So "our" would then mean the Prophets of God who brought the Gospel of Christ to the people, who didn't receive it, Yes?

Do you think Zechariahs and Simeon, along with some others in the Faith chapter, were the exceptions? Are these examples of men who "Received" the Gospel of Christ?




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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #18 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 13:18:49 »
Read Romans 10:16 in the original Greek, it doesn't mean OBEY.  ὑπήκουσαν has to do with hearing.  The leading idea is that some people refuse to LISTEN to the gospel, or RECEIVE it.  As the prophet Isaiah says, "who hath BELIEVED our report?"

Jarrod
υπακουουσιν  in Romans 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8


G5219

ὑπακούω

hupakouō

hoop-ak-oo'-o

From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.


απειθουντων in 1 Peter 4:17:

G544

ἀπειθέω

apeitheō

ap-i-theh'-o

From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.


I think "obey" is a legitimate translation/interpretation.  To listen or to receive in the context of the passages certainly has to do with obedience.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #19 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 14:35:00 »
I understand that the generally accepted religious view is the one you posted Yogi. But given all the warnings regarding religious men, and these scriptures, there are many more, how can you say the Gospel of Christ was first preached in Acts 2?
The gospel was "first" proclaimed by God himself in Genesis 3:15.
Quote from: The LORD God
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
And gradually throughout the OT in types, shadows, and sacrifices and offereings, until we come to Isaiah 53, where is it proclaimed with much more light by Isaiah. Come to the NT, it is proclaimed many times over, but NOT until Paul was it taught in its purest form especially so in Galatians 2:16-5:4.

Maybe we should establish and answer this question before starting: "What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Miss this truth and all that follows will be nothing more than men's vain opinions which is worthless.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 1:6-9~"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
I think we all would agree that to pervert Christ's gospel is a very serious matter that we all should consider and as much as lieth within us we should labor to make sure our gospel is according to God's testimony concerning his Son. It is a very serious matter.


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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #20 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 14:38:44 »
You have it all 4WD. I am out of here.
Michael you need to stay and contribute.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #21 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 14:45:36 »
Michael you need to stay and contribute.
Thank you for your good heart RB. And how can I turn down such a one? So, I will be contributing through you, with all due respect to our friend 4WD.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #22 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 15:08:16 »
Quote
Once you tell me what you think the Gospel of Christ that we should obey, then perhaps we can continue.

GB I am waiting to see you answer this as well

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #23 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 15:36:05 »
GB I am waiting to see you answer this as well

Yogi, I trust our friend~ should we not know FIRST what we should obey and in the sense in which we should obey? We should never expect anyone to obey something without first telling them what to obey and the manner in which our obedience is acceptable to those we are obeying.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #24 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 15:58:57 »
Yogi, I trust our friend~ should we not know FIRST what we should obey and in the sense in which we should obey? We should never expect anyone to obey something without first telling them what to obey and the manner in which our obedience is acceptable to those we are obeying.
Red sorry I do not understand what you are saying and in response to what

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #25 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 16:00:46 »
GB you are going to have to try that answer again or that makes no sense to me as an answer to what is the gospel of Christ and how it calls for obedience.Just what are the requirements it calls one to obey?

Also in short the gospel is the DB&R and the requirements set to enter into the grace. It was first preached in its fulfillment in Acts 2. It was hinted at up to the DB&R but was not come into fulfilled truth until the kingdom came to be and God started adding the saved into the kingdom (the church as we are told in Acts 2)


Yogi, slow down friend, you have me confused with GB....I'm RB.
Quote from: yogi bear on: Today at 15:52:38
Also in short the gospel is the DB&R and the requirements set to enter into the grace.
Yogi, You do understand that when Paul gives a very detail sermon on the gospel of Christ from both Romans 5 and Galatians 2:16-5:4 the DB& R is not the main subject~for the death and burial of Christ has no value apart from his LIFE~his perfect life of obedience is WHY he was raised from the dead for neither the law of God~ nor, death had any power over him to condemn him to eternal death.

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #26 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 16:04:17 »
Yes Red I realized that and deleted it and replied to you sorry about that and now I will read what you said and respond accordingly

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #27 on: Sun Apr 05, 2020 - 16:08:56 »
Yogi, slow down friend, you have me confused with GB....I'm RB. Yogi, You do understand that when Paul gives a very detail sermon on the gospel of Christ from both Romans 5 and Galatians 2:16-5:4 the DB& R is not the main subject~for the death and burial of Christ has no value apart from his LIFE~his perfect life of obedience is WHY he was raised from the dead for neither the law of God~ nor, death had any power over him to condemn him to eternal death.
Red I did say short but yes the perfect life is part as well but lets get real as in Romans 6 Paul tell us how we die to sin and become  alive in Christ so the DB&R is the jest of the gospel and I am sure I do not have to explain why to you.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #28 on: Mon Apr 06, 2020 - 04:52:28 »
The gospel was "first" proclaimed by God himself in Genesis 3:15.

And gradually throughout the OT in types, shadows, and sacrifices and offereings, until we come to Isaiah 53, where is it proclaimed with much more light by Isaiah. Come to the NT, it is proclaimed many times over, but NOT until Paul was it taught in its purest form especially so in Galatians 2:16-5:4.

Maybe we should establish and answer this question before starting: "What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" Miss this truth and all that follows will be nothing more than men's vain opinions which is worthless. I think we all would agree that to pervert Christ's gospel is a very serious matter that we all should consider and as much as lieth within us we should labor to make sure our gospel is according to God's testimony concerning his Son. It is a very serious matter.

What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
 
RB, in reply #11 GB brought this scriptures for consideration:

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

GB asked, Who is the "Them" here? His answer is, though the reference scriptures is erroneous, the children of Israel of the generation whom God had brought out from out of slavery in Egypt.

To that I agree. The gospel of Christ or the gospel concerning Christ was preached to them, but not with reference to the scriptures that GB quoted. For there is no gospel or good news there concerning the Christ. But here's a passage that speaks of that.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;


That was the good news or gospel concerning Christ that was preached to the children of Israel of the generation of Moses. The word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. They were, as God had judged them Himself and had said unto Moses "Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people".

Here's another reference scriptures to this:

Acts3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.


The gospel preached then was the sending and coming of the Christ (the Prophet Moses is speaking about). And that gospel, in the days of the apostles, is the same gospel, but that had turned up to be better gospel, that the Christ had finally and actually come in their day and time, and He is Jesus, the Son of God, the very one whom they have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain, the Jesus whom hath God raised up, and whereof they were all are witnesses, and who had ascended back to heaven where He was before, and now is seated at the right hand of God exalted, who is the lamb of God who take away the sin of the world, the everlasting High Priest, the mediator between God and man, the Savior, the Lord, the advocate, and a lot lot more....!

And so, the apostles preached exactly that gospel, which in one name is, Jesus Christ!

Now, with regards the topic "obedience to the gospel". In the gospel, even when preached in the days of Moses to the children of Israel, this is what they were told to do "unto him ye shall hearken". With that then, obedience to the gospel, I'd say is, listening to everything Jesus Christ tells you. In other words, obedience to the gospel is:

"Believing Jesus Christ, Believing in Him, Believing whatever He says."

« Last Edit: Mon Apr 06, 2020 - 05:42:50 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #29 on: Mon Apr 06, 2020 - 06:24:42 »
The gospel was "first" proclaimed by God himself in Genesis 3:15.
That is prophetic, and certainly truth; however that is not the gospel.  There are of course many, many prophecies concerning the gospel, but it is not until Peter preached that first sermon on Pentecost that the actual gospel was made known even to the Jews. Not even the apostles who had literally lived with Jesus for nearly three years did not know the gospel until Pentecost when it was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4).  It was much later still that the actual gospel was made known to the world mostly through Paul's preaching: For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Rom 1:16).

Some like to Monday morning quarterback God's word, thinking that it was really there all along; but that is simply not true.

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith-- (Rom 16:25-26).

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #30 on: Mon Apr 06, 2020 - 08:38:03 »
GB I am waiting to see you answer this as well

It took Paul 16 chapters just to explain the Gospel to the Romans. It's not a one sentence answer, at least not for those in the Bible who taught it.

The Gospel of Christ is the Law and Prophets or "Holy Scriptures"  as Paul said calls them.

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


It's basic tenant is this.   "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Christ teaches that if "anyone" would come to HIM, they must "deny" themselves, (their religions, their habits and traditions, like Abraham) and follow Him to a place they have never been, called righteousness. And He has already shed HIS Righteous Blood, which is the only thing that can wash my past unrightouesness away, in order to free me from being a slave to sin, (dead) so I may be alive to "serve another", namely, the God of Abraham.

The poor, meek, humble, those who "thirst for Righteousness", (God's definition of Good) These are those who have denied themselves and followed Him (FAITH). In His Gospel we have many examples of those who exhibited this Faith. And we are told to consider them.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Perfection)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; (Who was already made perfect) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And again;
 

1 Pet. 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

And again;

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


And if I slip and fall, or mess up in my walk? Jesus is faithful to go to God on my behalf. I am free to get up and run again, the race that is set before me. As Paul explains.

Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

There are many, who come in Christ's name, who preach that the Gospel of Christ didn't exist until after Jesus Died. This is why I asked the questions I asked because there are scriptures which bring this belief into question.



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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #31 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 06:34:37 »
There are many, who come in Christ's name, who preach that the Gospel of Christ didn't exist until after Jesus Died. This is why I asked the questions I asked because there are scriptures which bring this belief into question.
My comment to RB above most definitely  describes you. 

Some like to Monday morning quarterback God's word, thinking that it was really there all along; but that is simply not true.

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith-- (Rom 16:25-26).

There are all manner of prophecies in the OT concerning the coming of the Messiah.  We can look back on those prophecies and see how they foretold much about Jesus.  But nowhere that I am aware of is it described in the OT that the savior would be the Son of God, that He would be a man without sin, that He would die as a sacrifice to God for the sins of all mankind, and be raised again. As I noted elsewhere, even the apostles who were with Jesus on a daily basis for nearly three years couldn't put it all together until Pentecost.  And it took the divine intervention and inspiration of the Holy Spirit to make that happen.

The gospel that Paul spoke about in Romans 1:16, and about which the entire book was written, was not made known to anyone before the death of Jesus Christ.  The essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed "salvation by faith" which derives from and through "the righteousness of God".

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #32 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 07:22:59 »
RB, this is in addition to my reply #28 to you.

Concerning Hebrews 4:2, I have shown that indeed the gospel was preached to the children of Israel way back in the time of Moses. The scripture references that supports this, being Acts 7:37; Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20-22. And I have, in one name referred to the gospel that the apostles preached, that is, Jesus Christ. And with regards the topic of this thread, it is my position that obedience to the gospel (of Jesus Christ) is:

"Believing Jesus Christ, Believing in Him, Believing whatever He says."

And as you made mention, the gospel concerning Christ was gradually detailed throughout the OT. One thing to note in that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ was directed first to Israel, notwithstanding the truth spoken in Gen. 3:15. In Mt. 15:24, Jesus even said this "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel". So, regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ, at the times of the apostles, when it was first preached by Peter, it was not surprising that it was on Pentecost and in Jerusalem, where the audience mainly if not all, are Jews, though there are proselytes as well. We learn from scriptures that what the apostles' knew is that the gospel was only for Israel, and not for Gentiles. Only later was it also given to the Gentiles, which you know very well. The point is that, the gospel, in relation to the Gentiles, seems to be somewhat different that it is in relation to the Jews. Not that the gospel is different, but that, there is a sense of difference outside of the gospel, perhaps with regards perspective. So, care must be taken when looking at the gospel of Christ.

To the Jews, the gospel should have been simple and easy for them to grasp, since this gospel is very much within their religious culture and belief, even much spoken of in their sacred scriptures. On the other hand, this is not the case with the Gentiles. While it is the very same gospel, it is not as simple as it is with the Jews than it is for the Gentiles. I know you get what I mean here.

We see the conclusion of Paul concerning man's justification, as he had written to the church that is in Rome, in chapter 3, that is, it is the law or principle of faith that applies and governs. Paul said in Romans 3:30, that God shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. That while for both the Jew and the Gentile, it is faith, Paul's use of two separate prepositions in verse 30 somehow indicates a significant and noticeable difference, no matter how small that may be. And I think that this has to do with the fact that God had a covenant with Israel and not with Gentiles.

Nonetheless, the bottom line is, the gospel is for both, first to the Jew, but then also to the Gentiles. As Paul had adequately pointed out, passed whatever differences there is between the Jews and the Gentiles, that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin, that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. In that respect, all are equally guilty before God and deserving of death, and that all other things then between them disappears. That God is God of the Jews and the Gentiles, that Paul said "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

The Holy Spirit had made clear the salvation of God in Jesus Christ through Paul:

It is God who shall justify the Jews and Gentiles by the law of faith (not by law of works).

Paul said to the church in Rome:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Those shouts out the following truth concerning those who have believed:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Is this not what we ought to shout out to the world, about God's grace of salvation, the free gift of salvation, through faith?

What do we tell unbelievers to do when we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them?

Yes, if there is anything we all say to them, despite our differences in some other things concerning the salvation of God and even in our view of the nature of the existence of God, is this:

Believe! Believe in God! Believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God!

 

Offline GB

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #33 on: Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 13:53:02 »
 author=4WD link=topic=105730.msg1055160669#msg1055160669 date=1586259277]
My comment to RB above most definitely  describes you. 

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Some like to Monday morning quarterback God's word, thinking that it was really there all along; but that is simply not true.

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith-- (Rom 16:25-26).

There are all manner of prophecies in the OT concerning the coming of the Messiah.  We can look back on those prophecies and see how they foretold much about Jesus.  But nowhere that I am aware of is it described in the OT that the savior would be the Son of God,

Ps. 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

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that He would be a man without sin,

Is. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

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that He would die as a sacrifice to God for the sins of all mankind
,

Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

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and be raised again.

Ps. 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

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As I noted elsewhere, even the apostles who were with Jesus on a daily basis for nearly three years couldn't put it all together until Pentecost.  And it took the divine intervention and inspiration of the Holy Spirit to make that happen.

Why does Peter teach that God gave them the HIS holy Spirit?

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The gospel that Paul spoke about in Romans 1:16, and about which the entire book was written, was not made known to anyone before the death of Jesus Christ.  The essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed "salvation by faith" which derives from and through "the righteousness of God".

Duet. 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Didn't Paul mirror this same Biblical Truth in Rom. 1?

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And where did Paul find all this information about them? From the Gospel of Christ.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed (in the Gospel of Christ) from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Showed what 4WD? What was shown to them? The Gospel of Christ as it is written.

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

"Children in whom is no Faith".

"the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed" Why? Because God said "I will hide my face from them"; :- "for they are a very froward generation". But God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him, at least according to Peter after Pentecost.

 This is why Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, all knew Jesus when He came, but the Pharisees, who were "Children in whom is no Faith" did not.

This is why God gave the New Converts HIS Spirit when they were gathered together on HIS Holy Feast of Weeks, in Faith. But the Pharisees, who had forgotten the Rock that fed them, were blinded.




Offline Michael2012

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Re: Obedience To The Gospel
« Reply #34 on: Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 01:46:08 »
What do we tell unbelievers to do when we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them?

Yes, if there is anything we all say to them, despite our differences in some other things concerning the salvation of God and even in our view of the nature of the existence of God, is this:

Believe! Believe in God! Believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God!


RB, I think there is one here who does preach differently. In preaching his gospel to the unbelievers, this is what he tells them instead:

If you do well, shall you not be accepted?

I think he can't really tell what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Either he does not know it or he knows it but does not acknowledge it or he knows it but perverts it by adding to it or he is in deep deception that he is blinded and does not altogether see it. Here's our exchanges regarding that. You can check them out in the links below.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/trying-the-spirits-whether-they-are-of-god~1st-john-41/msg1055160733/#msg1055160733

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/trying-the-spirits-whether-they-are-of-god~1st-john-41/msg1055160741/#msg1055160741

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/trying-the-spirits-whether-they-are-of-god~1st-john-41/msg1055160749/#msg1055160749

Read what he have to say in this thread, as to what to him is the gospel of Christ:

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It took Paul 16 chapters just to explain the Gospel to the Romans. It's not a one sentence answer, at least not for those in the Bible who taught it.

The Gospel of Christ is the Law and Prophets or "Holy Scriptures"  as Paul said calls them.