GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: On the Law and Christians  (Read 9188 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
On the Law and Christians
« on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 14:19:22 »
I originally posted this as a facebook note. God bless :)

The Law - Is it for Christians?

I've lived for 28 years. About 8 of those have been as a Christian. And about 7 and a half of those years have been as a pretty obnoxious Christian too. As a young Christian, I quickly became involved in a lot of outreach and things, even though I was afraid, but through the teachings of Ray Comfort (yep, I was into Comfort before he was cool), I figured if I wasn't doing something for God, well, He hadn't done something for me. I started off pretty strong, preaching the law to sinners and telling them to repent and so on and so forth. I thought I was pretty good you know. I gave out the good test, knowing full well I failed everytime, and that according to the WOTM standards, I was not a Christian by any means. Sins I still struggled with, fought, always got the better of me.

Anyway, like that quote says - the law breeds two things - defeat, or hypocrisy. Well, it first started to breed hypocrisy in me. I was constantly making demands of friends and family that I wasn't keeping myself. Demanding that they wear certain things, go to this or that church event, pray at this or that time, read a certain amount of the Bible. I figured that they weren't doing these things because they were "carnal" or even lost. So I became a total hypocrite.

Then, after a while, God showed me my hypocrisy. You see, all the time I was actually trying to be rid of my sins, to be a better person, I never actually knew how. For me, the law was everything. I thought "If I am truly saved, I will want to keep the law, God will make me keep his law". And I would fail at it everytime. There is a reason for this and Paul tells us:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. Romans 4:15

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. Romans 5:20

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Romans 7:5

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead. Romans 7:8

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Romans 7:16

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.Romans 8:2-4

The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 1 Cor 15:56

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:10

[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:21

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Gal 4:21

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Gal 5:3


That's a lot of verses. I skipped a few where Paul is specifically talking about the law of Christ, which is this: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Gal 5:14

The above verses are talking about the Law of God, the commandments written in stone, and recited by Moses to the congregation. It is not just the 10, but all 613. How do I know this? Galatians is a warning to the early Christians about not going back to the law, and freedom in Christ. It's main contention point is that of circumcision, which was not in the 10 commandments, but was one of the other commandments under the law of Moses.

To sum up, Paul says that the law

i) Give the knowledge of sin
ii) Works wrath
iii) Makes offences abound
iv) Puts us under the dominion or power of sin
v) Works in us to bring fruit unto death
vI) works in us all manner of concupiscence
vii) is a law of sin and death
viii) is the strength of sin
iix) puts men under a curse
ix) frustrates the grace of God
x) cannot give life
xi) makes men debtors to do the WHOLE law (not just what they think is good to do)
xii) Righteousness does not come by law

Wow.. what Christian would want to put themself under that? Dear Christian, when you read that, does it honestly sound like the law is a good thing for you to be under? It is the STRENGTH OF SIN! It works sin. It frustrates grace. It is a curse. It gives sin power over you. Do you seriously think that the law is even a good thing to try and live by? Because you don't obey it all. You don't obey all 613. You might be in a church that demands you obey maybe eleven out of 613. Maybe they even modernise a few (ie, Sunday is the Christian Sabbath).

What Christian or any person in their right mind, but Christian especially, would want to be under something that places them in a position whereby God's grace is frustrated and that sin has power over them?

But hold on.. I was always taught that if I had no law to guide me, I would just delve into sin. I wouldn't care about anything and I would just sin it up and hate God and whatever. When I was under law (unsaved), I did all those things. And as a Christian, when I was under the law, I still struggled with all those things. In fact, as a Christian, the Law only did what it promised to do... put me under a curse, bondage and sin.

Now, consider what Paul says about grace - These are all from Romans - Philemon, and it's really slow process to put in the references, but you can do a search.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


According to Paul,

i) We are justified through grace
ii) We stand by grace
iii) The grace of God and the gift of salvation abounds by grace
iv) Grace abound where sin is
v) Grace reigns through righteousness and eternal life
vi) Sin has no dominion over those under grace
vii) Christ became poor to make us rich (eternal life), through grace
viii) Grace in us abounds unto every good work
iix) God's grace is sufficient!
ix) God called us by grace
x) Righteousness comes by grace
xi) We are accepted in His Son by grace
xii) We have forgivness and redemption by grace
xiii) We are SAVED by grace
xiv) Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness!

So there it is.

Law = sin and death
Grace = righteousness and life

There is no "but" here. The Christian is not under a single one of the 10 commandments, or the greater 613. As soon as this is said, did your inner voice just cry out and say "but then I'll just sin and not care" or "you just want to sin and not care". Well, then you are not under grace, do not understand grace but are still under law. When you are under grace, THEN and ONLY then, will you not bother with sin. Then and only then will it not be a battle, or a fight, but a victory that God already won.

So, to the young man who said on my profile (I deleted the comment and won't reveal his name :) )

"The laws (not just ten commandments) are still good principles and guidlines to live by. At least the ones still in effect. It doesn't mean they will get you to heaven, but when you love God, you want to do his will and strive to be more like him each day. Just because we are 'freed from the law' doesn't mean we can be sinful to our hearts content, sitting on our salvation till the rapture."

you are confused about law and grace. There are no laws (of Moses) in effect for the Christian, and for those under law (unsaved and legalists working for salvation), ALL of them are in effect.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Gal 5:3

If you want to keep one, you keep them all.

Now, go back and read up those verses on law and grace and tell me what will stop the Christian from sinning? Will it be the law, which Paul says only breeds sin further and further, or will it be grace, which Paul says frees from sin.

Remember those sins I said I struggled with way back in the intro. Through grace, I have found freedom from them. I am still tempted to sin, but I don't even fight it anymore. I just accept I am a sinner, God is my Saviour, and He has freed me from it. Knowing that my old man is dead, and that I am dead to sin, I see that I don't have to sin, and I found freedom from those specific sins. That's not to say I don't sin, lest anyone think I am promoting sinless perfection. When I do not reckon myself dead to sin, then the law gets a hold of me, and I start to struggle and fail. But freedom is found when I see that I am not under the law, and that sin has no dominion over me.

In conclusion - the Law has no place in the Christians life. It only serves to bring him back under bondage and sin will have dominion over the Christian who lives by law (weakness of the flesh) as opposed to living in the spirit (and thus by grace).

Christian Forums and Message Board

On the Law and Christians
« on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 14:19:22 »

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 15:01:51 »
That is a very thorough commentary, and interesting.  It is noteworthy concerning the law of the O.T. that it concerned works, with the expectation of a right and Godly spirit. The Lord Jesus speaks of His commandments more of the spirit, but with expectation of following the Word.

Have you also noticed that all the Ten Commandments are found in the N.T. except the keeping of the sabbath?  That is because of the validity of them in the spirit, and showing that the O.T. commandment concerning the sabbath yielded to the new testament in Christ as a risen Savior, which opened the door for the Gentiles and "whosoever will".

- Seriousseeker
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 15:01:51 »

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #2 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 15:34:13 »
None of the 10 commandments are found in Paul's writings. He writes things that Christian should abstain from, and we can see similarities and even identical statements under the law, but these are not part of the Mosaic Law, but part of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The Mosaic law cannot be broken down into 10 here, 50 there, 500 over that way. As Paul says in Galatians, if you want to keep the law, you keep the whole thing, and as James says, if you break one, you are guilty of all (James 2:10). Paul did not raise up what Jesus Christ put away with His blood and death on the cross :)

Paul's way is not to have 10 commandments (or 9) hanging over our heads, but rather, let the spirit, not the letter (of the law), guide us into truth and righteousness.

I've heard Christians say "The law (10 commandments) is our moral compass", but if we have the spirit of God within us, is that not enough? If we let God lead, does God sin? If we have the mind of Christ, is that not enough to control our thought life if we let him?

Some thoughts I've been pondering lately :)

God bless!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #2 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 15:34:13 »

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #3 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 22:30:24 »
I do not suppose that you are wrong, but I think you misunderstood me.  The thought or principles of the Ten Commandments are indeed FOUND in the N.T. as God's standards.

We ought to understand that besides the foundation work of God and history, the Old Testament sets forth an understanding of God and His holiness, prophecy, pictures, and principles for our learning as saints of God today;  and the New Testament sets forth God's mercy and grace, and redemption for the world;  doctrines, direction, and devotion for the saints' pathway.  The O.T. gives standards by law with blessings or consequences, and the N.T. gives standards by grace with blessings or forfeiture.  It is generally not good to try to use the O.T. for our instruction today, but good to appreciate the typologies.  The O.T. mostly concerns Israel and people of olden days before Christ.

The Ten Commandments are seen in the O.T. as law, and in the N.T. as God's worthy standards (expectations) to honor Him, and which man should seek after---but that perfection which man cannot attain to because of sin, and thus shows his need of a Savior for righteousness (Rom.8:3-4; Rom.10:4).  The faithful saints of Israel at least tried to keep the commandments because they were true and required of God (since Israel boasted they would do anything God required), but today many professing Christians do not try, though God still calls men to His standards to honor Him.  The judgment seat of Christ will reveal faithfulness or unfaithfulness.  One ought to read all of the epistle to the Galatians with this understanding.

In Exodus 20:3-17 we find God's Ten Commandments for Israel; then we read the New Testament equivalent as standards for us as follows:
1.   Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.  See also I Cor.8:4-6 & I Tim.2:5.
2.   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image---see also I Cor.10:14.
3.   Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain---see also James 5:12.
4.   Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy---not in the N.T., and given only for Israel---see Matt. 28:1-2; John 20:1; Acts 20:7, etc.
5.   Honor thy father and thy mother---see also Eph.6:2.
6.   Thou shalt not kill---see also I Pet.4:15.
7.   Thou shalt not committ adultery---see also Heb.13:4.
8.   Thou shalt not steal---see also Eph.4:28.
9.   Thou shalt not bear false witness---see also Eph.4:25.
10. Thou shalt not covet---see also Heb.13:5.

How wondrous and perfect is the Word of God (see Galatians 3).

- Seriousseeker

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #3 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 22:30:24 »

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 22:57:49 »
The 10 commandments are NOT found in the NT, for the WHOLE law was fulfilled by Christ. Rather, as I said, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is found in the NT, and as you posted with verses, many of these things Paul encourages Christians to abstain from do indeed have identical commandments under the law, but the NT writings of Paul are not the Mosaic law, regardless of how much they may look or sound like it. It is a new law, the spirit of life, whereas the old law is the ministration of death and sin. 

I am still not sure why you would want to put yourself under any of the OT commandments, or any law, since law only condemns and encourages sin?

Christians today do not need to try to keep the commandments. There are 613 of them and we cannot pick and choose. Rather, we give up, we admit defeat, we surrender, and let the Spirit of God rule in our hearts and minds. We do not need laws over us in order to live right in this world. Has not God written His commands on our heart and in our minds by His Spirit?

It comes down to this - OT saints did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, thus, they needed law. You and I do Brother :D

Is God's spirit able to keep you away from sin, self and unholiness, or do you still need Old Moses?

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:12)

It is the Spirit by the grace of God that teaches us - not the Law written in stone.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 04, 2010 - 22:57:49 »



Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #5 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 07:41:20 »
The 10 commandments are NOT found in the NT, for the WHOLE law was fulfilled by Christ.

Please explain what you think it means for the law to be fulfilled by Christ.  Take the first of the ten commandments, i.e.,

1.   Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

What do you mean when you say that law has been fulfilled by Christ?

Or how about the last one,

10. Thou shalt not covet.

What do you mean when you say that law has been fulfilled by Christ?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #5 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 07:41:20 »

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #6 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 14:19:56 »
I am not come to destroy the law, but rather, fulfill it.

Christ kept the law on our behalf, and then died as an innocent lamb, a sacrifice for all those who had, and will break the law.

Colossians 2
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now tell me why you want to put Christians under a law that Paul says

i) Give the knowledge of sin (unto condemnation)
ii) Works wrath
iii) Makes offences abound
iv) Puts us under the dominion or power of sin
v) Works in us to bring fruit unto death
vI) works in us all manner of concupiscence
vii) is a law of sin and death
viii) is the strength of sin
iix) puts men under a curse
ix) frustrates the grace of God
x) cannot give life
xi) makes men debtors to do the WHOLE law (not just what they think is good to do)
xii) Righteousness does not come by law


I honestly don't think you even read any of the above.

There is no "but" here. The Christian is not under a single one of the 10 commandments, or the greater 613. As soon as this is said, did your inner voice just cry out and say "but then I'll just sin and not care" or "you just want to sin and not care". Well, then you are not under grace, do not understand grace but are still under law. When you are under grace, THEN and ONLY then, will you not bother with sin. Then and only then will it not be a battle, or a fight, but a victory that God already won.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #7 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 15:54:02 »

Christ kept the law on our behalf

What does that mean?  How does one person keep the law on behalf of another?

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #8 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 17:03:42 »
Maybe a bad choice of words, but:

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

But, I see you haven't read a single Bible verse I gave, or responded to the vast contrast between law and grace, instead, choosing to pick apart MY words (which are not scripture), while clearly ignoring the contrast Paul gives between Law and Grace and the true path of holiness (grace).

If you are saved, you have the Spirit of God in you. Do you now need a commandment that says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" or will you simply love Him because the Spirit is in you? Will you covet because the Spirit is in you? And if you do covet, what can the law do but bring condemnation? Yet the Spirit will teach you to deny ungodliness, and assure you of your forgiveness in Christ.   Why add to God's work and put yourself under a law that was never meant for you gentile.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #8 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 17:03:42 »

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5384
  • Manna: 453
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #9 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 17:22:26 »
Maybe a bad choice of words, but:

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

But, I see you haven't read a single Bible verse I gave, or responded to the vast contrast between law and grace, instead, choosing to pick apart MY words (which are not scripture), while clearly ignoring the contrast Paul gives between Law and Grace and the true path of holiness (grace).

If you are saved, you have the Spirit of God in you. Do you now need a commandment that says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" or will you simply love Him because the Spirit is in you? Will you covet because the Spirit is in you? And if you do covet, what can the law do but bring condemnation? Yet the Spirit will teach you to deny ungodliness, and assure you of your forgiveness in Christ.   Why add to God's work and put yourself under a law that was never meant for you gentile.

Lukasaurus----

Amen.  ::smile::  Well said.  If the Spirit of God is living within us we don't need a command telling us to love the Lord.  We love Him because He first loved us and sent the Holy Spirit to live in us.   ::smile::

"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
 when I will make a new covenant
 with the house of Israel
 and with the house of Judah.
 It will not be like the covenant
 I made with their forefathers

 when I took them by the hand
 to lead them out of Egypt,
 because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
 and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
   I will be their God,
      and they will be my people.
 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
      or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
   because they will all know me,
      from the least of them to the greatest.
  For I will forgive their wickedness
      and will remember their sins no more.
"
(Hebrews 8: 8-12)

Amo

  • Guest
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #10 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 18:35:46 »
Please explain the following verses in light of what you are preaching.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.





Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #11 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 19:01:11 »
They are tribulation saints. Revelation is yet future

The church is gone by Revelation chapter 4. What follows is God dealing with Israel again (the woman is Israel - the 12 stars above her head, cf with Josephs dream) -  The remnant of the woman is the remaining Jews during the tribulation - the mystery of Grace revealed to the Apostle Paul is not in effect here - it is law, enduring to the end of the tribulation, not taking the mark of the beast.

Why do I need a tree of life, when I have the Life of Christ (Col 3:4)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, right dividing the word of truth.

Not all of the Bible is written to you. There was 4000 years of history before the cross, and there is yet at the very least 1007 years of future.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #12 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 22:17:09 »
Maybe a bad choice of words, but:

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

But, I see you haven't read a single Bible verse I gave, or responded to the vast contrast between law and grace, instead, choosing to pick apart MY words (which are not scripture), while clearly ignoring the contrast Paul gives between Law and Grace and the true path of holiness (grace).

If you are saved, you have the Spirit of God in you. Do you now need a commandment that says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" or will you simply love Him because the Spirit is in you? Will you covet because the Spirit is in you? And if you do covet, what can the law do but bring condemnation? Yet the Spirit will teach you to deny ungodliness, and assure you of your forgiveness in Christ.   Why add to God's work and put yourself under a law that was never meant for you gentile.

Paul said,  "What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

It wasn't the Spirit that told Paul that to covet was sin.  It was the law.  Still is.

I would ask you what does it mean when it says, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth."  Did Christ put an end to the law?  I don't think that is quite what that means.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #13 on: Wed May 05, 2010 - 22:23:49 »
They are tribulation saints. Revelation is yet future

The church is gone by Revelation chapter 4. What follows is God dealing with Israel again (the woman is Israel - the 12 stars above her head, cf with Josephs dream) -  The remnant of the woman is the remaining Jews during the tribulation - the mystery of Grace revealed to the Apostle Paul is not in effect here - it is law, enduring to the end of the tribulation, not taking the mark of the beast.

Why do I need a tree of life, when I have the Life of Christ (Col 3:4)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, right dividing the word of truth.

Not all of the Bible is written to you. There was 4000 years of history before the cross, and there is yet at the very least 1007 years of future.


Of course you must first believe in the premillennial view to think that.  You make such a deal about the end of the law and then you have it reinstituted.  For what purpose?  The purpose for it originally was to usher in grace.  You would have God now revert back from grace to the law?  Doesn't really make much sense.  Christ said, "it is finished", but then you turn around and say "no it isn't".  But that is another topic.

Amo

  • Guest
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 05:15:09 »
Quote
They are tribulation saints. Revelation is yet future

The church is gone by Revelation chapter 4. What follows is God dealing with Israel again (the woman is Israel - the 12 stars above her head, cf with Josephs dream) -  The remnant of the woman is the remaining Jews during the tribulation - the mystery of Grace revealed to the Apostle Paul is not in effect here - it is law, enduring to the end of the tribulation, not taking the mark of the beast.

Why do I need a tree of life, when I have the Life of Christ (Col 3:4)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, right dividing the word of truth.

Not all of the Bible is written to you. There was 4000 years of history before the cross, and there is yet at the very least 1007 years of future.

That's funny, never read the term tribulation saints in the bible.  Nor do any of the verses quoted specify any such thing.  They simply say the saints.  You do know what the book of Revelation says about anyone adding to, or taking away from the words of it, don't you?  You might want to be careful about that.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


So, in the old covenant God wanted them to keep the law, in the new covenant He doesn't want them to keep the law, but during the tribulation which is yet future, He will want them to keep the law again, is that correct?  It all seems nice and convenient for you.  No tribulation for you, and no law for you, but tribulation and law keeping for the poor people that happen to be around during this supposed tribulation time in the future when the privileged "Christians" are gone. 

Remember, it is study to show thyself approved, not study to show thyself what sounds good for you.  Why do you think God keeps waffling with His requirements?

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #15 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 05:18:58 »
I posted a devotion. You haven't read it. Nor have you addressed Paul's vast contrast between law and grace.  You can try to keep the commandments if you like. I am not entering into debate, as foolish fighting only engenders more and more ungodliness. I have responded with my beliefs, and will not be baited.

God bless!

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #16 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 07:10:25 »
I posted a devotion. You haven't read it. Nor have you addressed Paul's vast contrast between law and grace.  You can try to keep the commandments if you like. I am not entering into debate, as foolish fighting only engenders more and more ungodliness. I have responded with my beliefs, and will not be baited.

God bless!

You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?

As far as the contrast between law and grace, it was always about grace.  Even when, according to Paul, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." .  It was never either or.  It was always grace, with the law being a means to an end.

Offline Bonnie

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8593
  • Manna: 359
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #17 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 08:56:51 »
We know that God does hate. In Proverbs he states seven things that he hates. Are any of us guilty of doing the things God hates?

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

If we love God we won't be doing the things he hates. We will desire to be more like him and if we sin we will be sorrowful about it. It's just not something Christians enjoy anymore.

Offline Macrina

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 5
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #18 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 09:59:48 »
Paul made distinctions between the law (Mosaic) and grace because the Messiah had come. Every orthodox Jew, like Paul, knew/knows that when Christ came things would change, although they did not have a clue what that change would be. ie. would the law be abolished, how, then what

Here is a little trivia on what is considered "the law". Personally I believe they are guidelines, not law in the legal sense.
___________________________

Historically, many of the laws that Israel used (10 commandments aside) paralleled, though they were modified, a version of the laws of the land that were in effect in Abraham's time. Those being the "code of Khummarabi" or Babylonian laws. In fact Abraham became royalty according to those laws, which is one of the reasons he could fight with the kings of the land there. Middle easterners still fight about those laws to date, mainly over land issues which those laws also pertained to.

LEVITICUS
Our English title for the book comes to us from the Greek and means "pertaining to the Levites." The priests of Israel came from the tribe of Levi and this book is like a manual for their call and function. The Hebrew title for the book comes from the first word of the book, meaning "And He Called" and emphasizes the theme of God's call to holiness

DEUTERONOMY

The title of the last book of the Pentateuch in the English comes from the Greek Deuteronomion, which means "the second law" or "the repeated law."

The book was given just before they entered Canaan in the 40th year after they had come out of Egypt ( 1:3 ). It was given because many of them had not witnessed the transactions at Mt. Sinai, the former generation having all died except Joshua and Caleb. It was given to impress their hearts with a deep sense of their obligation to God, and to prepare them for the inheritance which God had prepared for them.

While Leviticus was addressed to the spiritual leaders of Israel, Deuteronomy was addressed to the common people for every day guidelines for godliness.

The ordinances of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers had regulated their nomadic life in the wilderness. Now as they were about to settle down in their own land some adjustments were necessary. This book provides these.

_____________________________

The only question a Christian needs to ask is, do I follow Moses or Jesus. Hopefully the Christian follows Christ.
Jesus did stand on a mountain and give His words to the people just as Moses had, but He gave them a new understanding with the beatitudes.  ::smile::

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #19 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 14:45:20 »


You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?


What am I here for? I shared something that some people might find encouraging - that God has not put them on probation, and they can be free from struggling and fighting with sin through grace, not law.

If you are dispensational, calvinist, arminian or whatever else there is, I posted it for encouragement. Perhaps I should have chosen a different board. I have no intention to "debate"... why would I? Christians argue too much about who is wrong on what and why. I've responded a few times here to clarify, but noone has actually responded to my post, only to my words. Either way, my words are not scripture, so I am not going to debate them, and the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it :)

Grace, not Law, will sanctify, separate and keep one "living right".

God bless :)

Offline Macrina

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 5
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #20 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 15:09:13 »
Lukasaurus, forgive me  ::kissing:: if my post did not uphold what you said in the OP. I meant it to support your topic.

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5384
  • Manna: 453
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #21 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 15:15:19 »
Quote
They are tribulation saints. Revelation is yet future

The church is gone by Revelation chapter 4. What follows is God dealing with Israel again (the woman is Israel - the 12 stars above her head, cf with Josephs dream) -  The remnant of the woman is the remaining Jews during the tribulation - the mystery of Grace revealed to the Apostle Paul is not in effect here - it is law, enduring to the end of the tribulation, not taking the mark of the beast.

Why do I need a tree of life, when I have the Life of Christ (Col 3:4)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, right dividing the word of truth.

Not all of the Bible is written to you. There was 4000 years of history before the cross, and there is yet at the very least 1007 years of future.


That's funny, never read the term tribulation saints in the bible.  Nor do any of the verses quoted specify any such thing.  They simply say the saints.  You do know what the book of Revelation says about anyone adding to, or taking away from the words of it, don't you?  You might want to be careful about that.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


So, in the old covenant God wanted them to keep the law, in the new covenant He doesn't want them to keep the law, but during the tribulation which is yet future, He will want them to keep the law again, is that correct?  It all seems nice and convenient for you.  No tribulation for you, and no law for you, but tribulation and law keeping for the poor people that happen to be around during this supposed tribulation time in the future when the privileged "Christians" are gone. 

Remember, it is study to show thyself approved, not study to show thyself what sounds good for you.  Why do you think God keeps waffling with His requirements?




http://tribulationsaints.com/definetribulationsaint.html

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #22 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 15:29:47 »
Macrina :) Don't fret

I was replying to the poster above you :D

Offline ela

  • 1 John 4:7-8
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2070
  • Manna: 206
  • Gender: Female
  • I wish I never put in that emotions chip!
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #23 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 15:45:31 »


You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?


What am I here for? I shared something that some people might find encouraging - that God has not put them on probation, and they can be free from struggling and fighting with sin through grace, not law.

If you are dispensational, calvinist, arminian or whatever else there is, I posted it for encouragement. Perhaps I should have chosen a different board. I have no intention to "debate"... why would I? Christians argue too much about who is wrong on what and why. I've responded a few times here to clarify, but noone has actually responded to my post, only to my words. Either way, my words are not scripture, so I am not going to debate them, and the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it :)

Grace, not Law, will sanctify, separate and keep one "living right".

God bless :)

Thank you Lukasauras!! I appreciate you putting so much in to your post! I know that some think that if you post that you also debate. Well, I thought we were supposed to learn from one another....glean from one another....not argue.

Also, some get hung up on when the word speaks of obeying commandments that it is speaking of the law again...but it is just saying to align oneself with the new commandments = love God and your neighbor as yourself...which fulfill the law!

Thanks again...

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #24 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 15:49:09 »
Amen to that Ela :)

Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15  But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Debating is of the flesh. If I don't agree with someone, well, it depends, I might say I don't agree and give a reason (especially if it is of real importance), but I won't argue anymore.

God bless :)

Offline Thankfulldad

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3096
  • Manna: 222
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #25 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 16:00:33 »
Debating is of the flesh. If I don't agree with someone, well, it depends, I might say I don't agree and give a reason (especially if it is of real importance), but I won't argue anymore.

God bless :)

Paul tells us to do everything without complaining or arguing so that we may become blameless and pure children of God.

If someone engages you in argument or complaint...you can be sure they are neither blameless or pure.

God Bless Friend...I enjoyed your posts.

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #26 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 16:13:18 »
I'm far from blameless and pure, outside of Jesus Christ. In Him, I am made the righteousness of God :D ::clappingoverhead::

Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Offline Thankfulldad

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3096
  • Manna: 222
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #27 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 16:19:19 »
I'm far from blameless and pure, outside of Jesus Christ. In Him, I am made the righteousness of God :D ::clappingoverhead::

Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Amen!!!

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #28 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 21:03:56 »


You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?


What am I here for? I shared something that some people might find encouraging - that God has not put them on probation, and they can be free from struggling and fighting with sin through grace, not law.

If you are dispensational, calvinist, arminian or whatever else there is, I posted it for encouragement. Perhaps I should have chosen a different board. I have no intention to "debate"... why would I? Christians argue too much about who is wrong on what and why. I've responded a few times here to clarify, but noone has actually responded to my post, only to my words. Either way, my words are not scripture, so I am not going to debate them, and the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it :)

Grace, not Law, will sanctify, separate and keep one "living right".

God bless :)

Are you so naive to think that what you believe is what everyone else believes?  Surely not.  Then are you really so arrogant to think that some would not take issue with you on those things that might be controversial?  I would hope not.  However, I think that your statement,  "the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it", just might suggest otherwise.  No one here would think to "debate the Bible" or find that it is not perfect.  However the same certainly can not be said of your interpretation of it.

You said, "I have no intention to "debate"... why would I?"  Could that be a little arrogance and pride showing? 

Offline ela

  • 1 John 4:7-8
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2070
  • Manna: 206
  • Gender: Female
  • I wish I never put in that emotions chip!
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #29 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 21:25:19 »


You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?


What am I here for? I shared something that some people might find encouraging - that God has not put them on probation, and they can be free from struggling and fighting with sin through grace, not law.

If you are dispensational, calvinist, arminian or whatever else there is, I posted it for encouragement. Perhaps I should have chosen a different board. I have no intention to "debate"... why would I? Christians argue too much about who is wrong on what and why. I've responded a few times here to clarify, but noone has actually responded to my post, only to my words. Either way, my words are not scripture, so I am not going to debate them, and the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it :)

Grace, not Law, will sanctify, separate and keep one "living right".

God bless :)

Are you so naive to think that what you believe is what everyone else believes?  Surely not.  Then are you really so arrogant to think that some would not take issue with you on those things that might be controversial?  I would hope not.  However, I think that your statement,  "the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it", just might suggest otherwise.  No one here would think to "debate the Bible" or find that it is not perfect.  However the same certainly can not be said of your interpretation of it.

Jimmy...u love to dig and find fault and pick fights don't you? Some, whether you can believe it or not, truly do not feel the need to quarrel...as u seem to. He said nothing negative about you...as you have done to him...and he left on a good note too...yet you still want to fight. IS this what Christianity is to you??? What a shame...as u r the one showing arrogance. 

Offline Lukasaurus

  • Blessed
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Manna: 11
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #30 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 21:57:49 »
I honestly said "why would I" because I have no intent to debate, but I desire to encourage and also learn. I did not say it because I think I am the be all and end all of Bible understanding. Sorry if I confused you :)

Offline Thankfulldad

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3096
  • Manna: 222
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #31 on: Thu May 06, 2010 - 22:05:01 »
I honestly said "why would I" because I have no intent to debate, but I desire to encourage and also learn. I did not say it because I think I am the be all and end all of Bible understanding. Sorry if I confused you :)

Brother,

But your understanding is correct...please continue to; be humble before God in all things...and speak the truth before men. 

Some might see that as boastful...if we know the truth and have confidence in it.  Knowing we are saved is arrogance to some; but this is true humility to God, because we trust in His Word through His Son, His death, His Spirit, His faith, hope & love!

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #32 on: Fri May 07, 2010 - 07:40:26 »
I honestly said "why would I" because I have no intent to debate, but I desire to encourage and also learn. I did not say it because I think I am the be all and end all of Bible understanding. Sorry if I confused you :)

Do you see a difference between "debate" and "discussion" as it applies to a forum such as this one?

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #33 on: Fri May 07, 2010 - 08:12:36 »


You are not entering into debate? Then I might wonder why you are here; only to bestow upon us the brilliance of your knowledge and wisdom, perhaps?


What am I here for? I shared something that some people might find encouraging - that God has not put them on probation, and they can be free from struggling and fighting with sin through grace, not law.

If you are dispensational, calvinist, arminian or whatever else there is, I posted it for encouragement. Perhaps I should have chosen a different board. I have no intention to "debate"... why would I? Christians argue too much about who is wrong on what and why. I've responded a few times here to clarify, but noone has actually responded to my post, only to my words. Either way, my words are not scripture, so I am not going to debate them, and the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it :)

Grace, not Law, will sanctify, separate and keep one "living right".

God bless :)

Are you so naive to think that what you believe is what everyone else believes?  Surely not.  Then are you really so arrogant to think that some would not take issue with you on those things that might be controversial?  I would hope not.  However, I think that your statement,  "the Bible is perfect, so I am not going to debate it", just might suggest otherwise.  No one here would think to "debate the Bible" or find that it is not perfect.  However the same certainly can not be said of your interpretation of it.

Jimmy...u love to dig and find fault and pick fights don't you? Some, whether you can believe it or not, truly do not feel the need to quarrel...as u seem to. He said nothing negative about you...as you have done to him...and he left on a good note too...yet you still want to fight. IS this what Christianity is to you??? What a shame...as u r the one showing arrogance. 

ela,

If you will go back to the beginning you will see that in reply #5 I asked what I thought was a very simple question based upon what he wrote.  He didn't bother to answer the question; he simply accused me of not reading what he wrote.

I then asked, in reply #7, another question about a statement that he made.  His answer was something about a poor choice of words.

It continued with another quite civil question in reply #12.  So far as I am concerned he likes to simply post and then withdraw.  If you agree with what he wrote, I guess that seems perfectly reasonable to you.  But I disagree with some of what he wrote and I thought I asked questions politely.  I can see nothing wrong with the questions that I asked.  But his response was,  "I won't debate".  I find that somewhat arrogant. Why would someone expect to not be confronted when they make controversial statements?

His response in reply #15, was

"I am not entering into debate, as foolish fighting only engenders more and more ungodliness."

That is pretty telling.  To disagree with him or to ask questions concerning what he posted is to him "foolish fighting"  and apparently engenders ungodliness.  Again I find that just a bit arrogant.  But I guess you do not.  So be it.

Offline Macrina

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Manna: 5
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #34 on: Fri May 07, 2010 - 08:42:15 »
Hi Jimmy,  ::smile::

I would like to attempt to answer your questions if that's ok. They are very good questions and deserve a clear answer.

Looking at Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes". 
Note that in the verses that follow this one in Romans (verses 5-13), the 'way of law" and the "way of faith" are contrasted. BTW one of my favorite OT verses is written here also, "the word is nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart that thou mayest do it!"(Deut. 30:14)

Allow me to establish from my understanding the basic principle of "law", which is obedience. From the very beginning (Genesis) with Adam this was the problem between God and mankind, obedience. There is no higher form of righteousness to God than obedience.

Christ being the "new Adam" has accomplished for us such perfect obedience as God requires of mankind. As Jesus said, "not my will, but thine will be done".  Therefore, irregardless of any written laws, be they of Moses or any other man, obedience to God is more important.

Such perfect obedience is also a perfect sacrifice of worship to God. And this fulfills God's plan for mankind. Through Christ (as a part of the whole of mankind ie. by His Incarnation) by our faith we too can accomplish this.

Hope that helped.  ::tippinghat::
« Last Edit: Fri May 07, 2010 - 17:27:11 by Macrina »

 

     
anything