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Author Topic: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16  (Read 16800 times)

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Online Texas Conservative

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #595 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:35:41 »
Texas Conservative

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I don't believe the Five Steps to be biblical.  I believe it is as hodgepodge as The Sinner's Prayer.
I believe it's bad to package any teaching up in a catchphrase and put a bow around it. Hearing, believing, confessing Jesus as Lord, repenting, and water baptism in Jesus's name are scripturally linked to getting saved, but ICOC doesn't teach five steps. We just share scriptures.

Quote
As far as my experience goes, my soon to be ex-wife is the daughter of a Gospel Advocate/Gospel Minutes strain of CofC elder.
Never heard of that.

Quote
I don't have a problem with Mark 16:16. In a nutshell, I think conservative evangelicals minimize baptism, and on the flip side, I think CofC folks give baptism too much credit.
Again, I don't know your experience or what you consider too much. I believe we put it in proper perspective, but I can't speak for the entirety of CoC. I don't believe it's wrong to mention it as much as sinner's prayer adherents mention the sinner's prayer.

The Gospel Advocate/Gospel Minutes/Spiritual Sword crowd  at one point the mainstream conservatives of the non-instrumental CofC brotherhood.  Obviously, with you being ICOC, you are bit outside that realm.

As far as baptism being mentioned as much as the sinner's prayer?  I think undue emphasis on the sinner's prayer and baptism is in error.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #595 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:35:41 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #596 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:42:00 »
Texas Conservative

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As far as baptism being mentioned as much as the sinner's prayer?  I think undue emphasis on the sinner's prayer and baptism is in error.
Yeah, you're right.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #596 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:42:00 »

Offline Charlie24

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #597 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:43:57 »
Brother Red, let me just say a word on what I believe about the sinners prayer.

I will answer this later brother.  I am coming up toward your neck of the woods I think Saturday.  My second grandson is graduating from Hi School in Charlotte, then he moves here to start at Clemson in August. I am trying my best to buy my way out of going, since I hate sitting through such things, but my wife is insisting that I MUST GO.  So, I guess I will.

Red, I'm only 15 miles from Charlotte. If you come let me know, I'll meet you at a restaurant or somewhere! I'd like to meet you!

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #597 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 07:43:57 »

Offline mclees8

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #598 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 16:17:12 »
I agree that just the sinners prayer does not save one. It is a matter of truly believing in who Jesus was and did on the cross. It is in a life that has turned from his old life to put his whole life in the learning of all Jesus taught so we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. Its all this and more.

I just want to get some feed about John 1:12

 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

One can be saved and never say any sinners prayer. I still believe salvation is a simple thing if one truly believes.

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in Him shall eternal life
John 3:16




e.r.m.

Than you for your input. I understand what you just said. I admit sometimes things here seem to complicate understanding. We are trying to flex our theological muscles. I believe sometimes we need to see our faith in a more simplified way. So many times have to read posts several times

I don't know how it is with many others but for me it was a life and death thing. My Life was crumbling down like the world trade center. I desperately needed to believe or die. Jesus had to be who they were saying he was.  It says in Hebrews 11:6  "If any man come to God he must believe the God is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Without fath it is impossible to please Him. For me I had no other choice. so I said yes Lord I believe. He pulled me out of the ruins that was my life and set me on the road to life. Its not a matter of how we come to believe it is a matter of life and death that we do.  So by faith I believed and that step of faith saved my life
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 17:49:48 by mclees8 »

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #598 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 16:17:12 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #599 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 17:03:24 »
mclees8,
It's a good question. The idea of receiving Jesus "as savior" didn't first come up until 1527 with John Calvin. John 1:12's to those who received him, was a general receiving Him. It didn't say they received him - "as savior". They gave Him their ear, they believed He was sent from God and gave him their attention. They were the crowd divided in His favor and believed in Him. To these God gave the right/authority/power to 'become' children of God, as the verse says. Later, when John came up with the theology of "receiving" salvation/receiving Jesus as one's Savior, this verse's meaning was changed. Just because it shares a few of the same words as a later innovation, doesn't mean that's what John originally intended.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #599 on: Wed Jun 10, 2015 - 17:03:24 »



KiwiChristian

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #600 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:10:40 »
If we have to be baptised to be saved, then Jesus failed on the cross.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #600 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:10:40 »

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #601 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:17:55 »
Someone said "The idea of receiving Jesus "as savior" didn't first come up until 1527 with John Calvin. "

That's a lie.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

"I said therefore to you, that ye shall die in your sins; for unless ye shall believe that I Am (he), ye shall die in your sins."

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #602 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:36:18 »
This thread is 4.5 years old.  Why did you dig it up?

I guess I'll allow it for the moment, since the person who started it is still an active member.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #603 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:41:27 »
Someone said "The idea of receiving Jesus "as savior" didn't first come up until 1527 with John Calvin. "

That's a lie.
We are told that as Christians we will receive a lot of things; we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive a reward; we receive one another but we are never told to "receive Jesus as savior".  We are told to confess Him as Lord.

Perhaps the more common idea is accepting Jesus.  But even that is backward.  We are never told to accept Jesus.  On the other hand Paul does say that Jesus has accepted us (Rom 15:7).

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #603 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:41:27 »

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #604 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 15:50:55 »
Kiwi said If we have to be baptised to be saved, then Jesus failed on the cross

That is your opinion and a bad one,  It is Jesus who set the terms of salvation.  It was Jesus who said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.  So you are calling the Son of God a liar?  Jesus was baptized , He instructed the apostles to baptize.  Every example of conversion after the cross the people were baptized.  Read the book of Acts carefully and find one conversion that does not include being baptized.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #605 on: Wed Nov 22, 2017 - 18:42:17 »
KiwiChristian,
Quote
Someone said "The idea of receiving Jesus "as savior" didn't first come up until 1527 with John Calvin. "

That's a lie.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

"I said therefore to you, that ye shall die in your sins; for unless ye shall believe that I Am (he), ye shall die in your sins."
As that someone, you have yet to show evidence against the fact that the getting saved method known as "Receiving/accepting Jesus as savior" did not exist before John Calvin.

You instead showed two passages that show Jesus is savior, which is what people often do when they're not listening to the statement.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #606 on: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 19:42:55 »
KiwiChristian,As that someone, you have yet to show evidence against the fact that the getting saved method known as "Receiving/accepting Jesus as savior" did not exist before John Calvin.

You instead showed two passages that show Jesus is savior, which is what people often do when they're not listening to the statement.

 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:



Offline Jaime

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #607 on: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:30:41 »
Yes. absolutely a verse to be considered with the rest of the NT. The whole NT is to be read and taken cumulatively, not as in dueling alpha verses. It’s a story, not a collection of proof texts.

If a verse says believe and be saved, and another says repent and be baptized and be saved and another says confess with your lips and be saved, I’m going with all of the above rather than pitting those verses against each other.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:39:19 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #608 on: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:35:17 »
John 1:12 But as many as received him,
           to them gave he power
           TO BECOME the sons of God,
           even to them that believe on his name

Those who believe ON HIS NAME: notice that believing is QUALIFIED
If you BELIEVE ON HIS NAME you have the power TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD.

Based on my poor grammar John does not say that THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON HIS NAME ARE SAVED.
Did you notice that?

The eunuch with His Isaiah Scroll would know about the prophecy of baptism in Isaiah 1
When Philip identified Jesus as the Messiah

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said,
      See, here is water; what doth HINDER me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
      And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still:
       and they went down both INTO the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The eunuch did not BELIEVE and become the son of God: He believed that Jesus is the Christ the son of God because he and even children were Prophet Literate from attending synagogue to hear the WORD PREACHED by being READ.

The PURPOSE of baptism was FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS: Why would you want to be saved with a salvation which did not forgive your sins.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD
         were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If you don't insist on being baptized you may not have received HIS WORD not available in "worship theaters."

Jesus added them to HIS Church as a School of the Word.  Becoming a Student of Christ through His Word does not give you a punched ticket on the Joy Buss to Heaven.  You have to RUN THE RACE according to the RULES..

The Academy of Christ is the WAY that is called a SECT: It is a very narrow ROAD or Pattern and only a FEW are able to find that tiny gate. The gait is made STRAIT by the milling masses Purpose Driven to prevent you from finding it.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:
         for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
         and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,
           that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Destruction is Apoleia and the Senior Pastor is APOLLON the leader of the LOCUSTS or Muses.

Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able

Strait is: g4728. stenos, sten-os´; probably from the base of 2476; narrow (from obstacles standing close about): — strait.

We are tempted to say that who preach THEIR FAITH ONLY are just unlearned.   However, Jesus inspired Paul to command that the APT elders get rid of the Cunning Craftsmen or SOPHISTS: speakers, singers or instrument players SPECIFICALLY "Melody in a holy place" because he says that THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

It is pretty dangerous to play the Devil's Advocate even to provoke dialog.





« Last Edit: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:47:12 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #609 on: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:53:55 »
KiwiChristian,
Quote
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
KiwiChristian, you have yet to show evidence against the fact that the getting saved method known as "Receiving/accepting Jesus as savior" did not exist before John Calvin.

You instead showed a passage that to those who received Jesus (it doesn't say "as savior") he gave power to become sons of God. They would already be sons of God if today's method of "receiving him as savior" existed then. This doesn't match at all.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 24, 2017 - 20:57:01 by e.r.m. »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #610 on: Tue Dec 05, 2017 - 21:35:07 »
If we have to be baptised to be saved, then Jesus failed on the cross.

Negative, you show that you don't understand either the cross nor covenant.

The cross was for providing atonement for your sin, but that atonement is NOT given to you unless you are in covenant relationship with God. And you are not in covenant relationship with God unless you receive water baptism. Why?

Because just as circumcision was the means of entrance into the old covenant, so water baptism is the means of entering into the New Covenant, and that by God's ordination. The atonement is a covenant gift - meaning that you don't receive it unless you are in that covenant.

Baptism does NOT save anyone. Just as you cannot enter into a store unless you walk through the door, so neither can you enter into the New Covenant unless you receive water baptism.

Blessings!


Offline Jaime

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #611 on: Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 07:56:00 »
Kiwi, why is confessing with our lips part of the salvation process and baptism is not? Do we have the option to call baptism an unnecessary “work”, when the work in baptism is done by God? Baptism is a totally passive submission and a calling upon The Lord for a clean conscience. Is the request necessary, 1 Peter 3:21? Was Ananias lying or mistaken with what he told Paul in Acts 22, about being baptized and washing away his sins calling upon the Lord?
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 08:49:00 by Jaime »

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #612 on: Fri Dec 08, 2017 - 08:35:03 »

Those who believe ON HIS NAME: notice that believing is QUALIFIED
If you BELIEVE ON HIS NAME you have the power TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD.

Based on my poor grammar John does not say that THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON HIS NAME ARE SAVED.
Did you notice that?

The eunuch with His Isaiah Scroll would know about the prophecy of baptism in Isaiah 1
When Philip identified Jesus as the Messiah

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said,
      See, here is water; what doth HINDER me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
      And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still:
       and they went down both INTO the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The eunuch did not BELIEVE and become the son of God: He believed that Jesus is the Christ the son of God because he and even children were Prophet Literate from attending synagogue to hear the WORD PREACHED by being READ.

The PURPOSE of baptism was FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS: Why would you want to be saved with a salvation which did not forgive your sins.



Thanks for that Kenneth, I believe the above is very well stated and should be tantamount to believing in baptism as a vital part of salvation.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #613 on: Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 22:43:03 »
You have to receive him. I know the day when his spirit entered me. Before that I rejected his spirit as I felt him pressing in. I know this is different than those who havent had a encounter. Behold I stand at the door and knock. I know that the Lord entered me on that day off salvaction. I rocked back and forth for ages and felt him come through me like waves of energy crying like a baby . Released from bondage  as my soul now became free. No baptism in water but spirit. I then got baptized in water out of obedience. If I died  before the water I could truely say I started to know him.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #614 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 03:41:16 »
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power TO BECOME the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Those who believe ON HIS NAME: notice that believing is QUALIFIED
If you BELIEVE ON HIS NAME you have the power TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD.

Based on my poor grammar John does not say that THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON HIS NAME ARE SAVED.
Did you notice that?
Kenneth you are not hearing what John is teaching, and it seems you have a lot of friends in the same boat with you. Listen carefully what John is truly saying:
Quote from: John the apostle
John 1:10-13~"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.:
It should be simple to follow, and it IS, when that same power that gave those of Jesus' day to receive him is in operation upon one's heart today. Jesus came unto the Jewish nation, and they received him not as a nation, but some did, and it was them to whom God gave the power/right to do so. John 1:13 is a commentary on verse twelve.
Quote from: Kenneth Sublett
notice that believing is QUALIFIED If you BELIEVE ON HIS NAME
No, you are so wrong, believing is qualified if you have been born OF GOD~~it is so clear that what separated those who did not receive Christ and those that did was determined by the sovereign will of God in showing grace to some and not to others.

IF this is not so, then you have three other options: Blood~which is proven NOT to be so by the fact some Jews did, most of them did not; the will of the flesh; and the will of man; NEITHER of them, John said did NOT have a part in them receiving Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 03:48:11 by RB »

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #615 on: Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 05:22:01 »
No, you are so wrong, believing is qualified if you have been born OF GOD
RB, that is just plain wrong my friend.  It never says that in the Bible.  It never says that believing is qualified by having been born of God.  And I don't believe it ever says anything that could even remotely be twisted into saying that.  We are saved by grace through faith, i.e., through believing.  Believing, i.e., faith, comes from hearing the word about Christ. 

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #616 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 12:57:33 »
RB, that is just plain wrong my friend.  It never says that in the Bible.  It never says that believing is qualified by having been born of God.  And I don't believe it ever says anything that could even remotely be twisted into saying that.  We are saved by grace through faith, i.e., through believing.  Believing, i.e., faith, comes from hearing the word about Christ.

While I don't take all of Red's statements as correct, the Scriptures do NOT teach that a person is saved the moment they believe in Christ, and that is what you seem to be saying here.

According to Scripture (not counting the two instances where God made exceptions), no one gets saved unless they believe, repent, and receive baptism into the New Covenant. Salvation is a covenant gift, given only to those who are in the covenant. Again, according to the black and white page, if one does not receive baptism, then he is not saved, because God made the promise of salvation through the New Covenant, not through faith alone.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

When we take all of the 300 passages that address salvation (directly or indirectly), just believing does not cut it, just as only receiving baptism doesn't cut it, and both are useless if the person does not choose to repent from his previous lifestyle of sin.


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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #617 on: Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 15:24:59 »
While I don't take all of Red's statements as correct, the Scriptures do NOT teach that a person is saved the moment they believe in Christ, and that is what you seem to be saying here.
Never said that.  Don't believe it.

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Re: One of the most controversial scripture in all of the NT~Mark 16:16
« Reply #618 on: Sat Dec 16, 2017 - 22:57:47 »
Never said that.  Don't believe it.


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