Author Topic: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?  (Read 5523 times)

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Offline RB

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This thread is broken off from here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/why-paul/35/ so we would not hijack e.r.m.'s thread, and also because of the importance of this subject.
Quote from: johntwayne Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
Boy, you sure are steeped in that Calvinism. It is not Christ's faith that is put down to our account it is our faith. Faith is not the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, 9, salvation is the gift.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
(Rom 4:5)

Note it is "his" faith, not Christ's faith that is accounted as righteousness.
I have already address
Quote from: johntwayne #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
Boy, you sure are steeped in that Calvinism. It is not Christ's faith that is put down to our account it is our faith. Faith is not the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, 9, salvation is the gift.
Here:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/why-paul/35/ Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 05:00:59

So let us consider this statement:
Quote from: johntwayne Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, (Rom 4:5) Note it is "his" faith, not Christ's faith that is accounted as righteousness.
Before the Judge of all whose law demands perfection in thoughts, words, and deeds it is impossible that our faith is the means of our legal justification before the law of God~God cannot remain Just if he justifies sinners~ the only manner in which he can justify a sinner is if a PERFECT payment is made to satisfy His law that has been transgressed. No man is capable of offering such a payment~ even Adam in the state of being created RIGHTEOUS and after God's image with a nature FREE of being at enmity against God could not yield such obedience without God's BEING that righteousness for him! It is very clear that it is NOT our faith that is accounted as righteousness before God Law but Christ's, for it is written:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:29-31~"That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
If it is true, and it IS, that God made unto us Christ to be OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, then our faith is not that righteousness~that should be simple to understand.

Let us consider the scriptures where it is said that our faith is accounted for righteousness and see how we should rightly divide the scriptures to understand that phrase.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Here Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, "even as", means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen.

Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if you grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism those who think that their works, including faith, the most important of all is the means of them being righteous before God.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6).

For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting works of the Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Geesisn 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians hold conditional justification~faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification~ faith is the instrument receiving righteousness. We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (CONSIDER AND PONDER: Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! I do not think anyone wants to go there!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of hell (Genesis 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?  No Arminian can give a biblical answer to those questions.

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7).

God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!   
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 05:22:48 by RB »

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 06:14:04 »
Quote
1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (KJV)
29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2Co 5:18-21 — And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #2 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 07:35:29 »
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The text says NO SUCH THING!!

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom_4:9  Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Gal_3:6  So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


There is absolutely nothing in any of those verses that speak of evidence.  All are very straightforward in what is said and what is meant.  In each and every instance the clear meaning is that it was Abraham's faith in God that was reckoned, counted, credited to him as [for] righteousness.  Abraham believed God, believed in God, had faith in God and based upon that faith God declared Abraham to be righteous.

There is no amount of twisting and distorting of any of those verses for which it could be argued that Abraham's faith was reckoned as evidence of anything. 

Quote from: RB
The difference is significant~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
You speak of legal justification as if there is any other kind of justification.  There is not legal or illegal or unlegal justification.  Justification is a legal term. I have taken much of the following from my favorite theologian, Dr. Jack Cottrell:

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state). Our main concern here is the act.  We can rightly hold that Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does. It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. 

Justification has a distinct meaning. What is this meaning? A brief look at some Greek terminology will put us on the proper track. The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness. The problem is to identify the proper connection between them. In Christian theology since the Reformation there have been two main competing views of the meaning of justification as it relates to righteousness. One is that justification means that God declares us righteous by imputing righteousness to us; the other is that justification means that God makes us righteous by imparting righteousness to us.

Most Protestants believe that God actually does both of these things; the issue is, which is the proper definition of justification? In the latter view “imparted righteousness” is the personal obedience and good works God enables us to perform by the power of his grace working in us; it is the right moral character character we are enabled to attain by this power. Justification as God’s act is thus his ongoing process of making us more and more righteous or holy. To Protestants this process is actually sanctification, not justification; but in classic Roman Catholic theology this is how justification itself is understood.  In Catholic doctrine “faith justifies, not by uniting the sinner to Christ, and making him a partaker of Christ’s righteousness,—but by ‘working’ in him, and ‘sanctifying’ him.” In this view faith justifies by producing within the believer “a real inherent righteousness, which is, on its own account, acceptable to God, and which constitutes the immediate ground of his acceptance;—in short, by making him righteous, subjectively”. The official conclusion of the Catholic Church’s authoritative Council of Trent (1545–1563) was that justification “is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of grace and gifts whereby the unjust man becomes just”. The formal cause of this justification “is the justice of God . . . by which he makes us just [i.e., righteous], . . . and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us” .

According to this view justification is a subjective process that takes place within the individual, an inward change in one’s moral character. This means that justification is tied to one’s works in a direct way, and because it is a process, one can never be certain that he has reached a level of works that makes him acceptable to God. Herein lies one of the major differences between classic Roman Catholicism and Reformation Protestantism.

To most Protestants this view of justification is seriously wrong and is a major stumbling block to a proper overall understanding of salvation and to a Christian life of peace and assurance. We understand God’s act of justification to be not the impartation of righteousness, but the imputation of righteousness. “To justify” means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous, to count or reckon or accept as righteous. The state of justification is not an ever-increasing holiness of character, but a complete right legal standing before the law of God and a freedom from the law’s penalty.

That justification means to declare righteous rather than to make righteous is seen in the use of the verb dikaioo in Luke 7:29, which says literally that the people who heard Jesus’ teaching about John the Baptist “justified God” (KJV). Obviously this cannot mean that the people made God righteous; they were simply declaring or acknowledging him to be righteous. Thus the NASB translates this as “They acknowledged God’s justice,” and the NIV says they “acknowledged that God’s way was right.” Likewise when God justifies us he is not making us righteous but is declaring us so.

That this is the proper meaning of the concept is also seen in the fact that in Scripture justification is basically a legal (judicial, forensic) concept. That is, in the Bible it is a judge’s verdict or finding after he has considered the evidence and found a person to be innocent. “To justify” is always the opposite of “to condemn.” For example, Deuteronomy 25:1 says that when men go to court, “the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.” Likewise Proverbs 17:15 condemns a corrupt judge “who justifies the wicked” and “condemns the righteous” (see Isa 5:23). This same contrast between justification and condemnation is seen in God’s own judicial verdict: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?” (Rom 8:33-34; see Matt 12:37). Obviously when a judge condemns someone he does not thereby make that person guilty; he only discovers and declares him to be so. Likewise when a judge justifies someone he does not thereby make that person innocent or righteous; he simply declares him to be so.

There is a major difference between justification as an act of a human judge and justification as a saving act of God. Human judges, unless they are corrupt (Prov 17:15), justify only the innocent; they declare someone righteous only if he is indeed already righteous or innocent. This is what the law requires. But in the act of salvation God justifies guilty sinners (Rom 4:5); he declares the unrighteous to be righteous! How can God go against the standards of his own law (Deut 25:1) and do the very thing that he himself has forbidden in Proverbs 17:15? When God justifies us, he is declaring that, even though we are sinners, we are now “square” with the law. How can this be since we as sinners have broken the commands of the law? First we must remember that the way of salvation is grace, not law; and the principles by which grace operates are the very opposite of law, as we saw in the previous chapter. But this is not the whole story.

In order to understand precisely what is happening in justification, we must remember that law consists not only of commands but also of penalties. There is no longer any way that a sinner can be right with the law (i.e., justified) in reference to its commands, since we are guilty of breaking them. When God justifies us, he is not declaring that we are innocent and have never broken the law’s commands. Rather, justification is God’s declaration that we are right with the law in reference to its penalty. It means that God treats us not as if we are innocent, because we are not; rather, it means that he treats us as if our penalty has already been paid—which it has! The best way for a Christian to understand what it means to be justified is to picture himself as a defendant standing in a courtroom before God as the presiding Judge, and to hear God pronounce his verdict: “No penalty for you!” Many will say that God’s judicial declaration is “Not guilty!” but that is not so. Justification does not remove our guilt, but it deals with it by removing the condemnation that goes with it (Rom 8:1).

Thus the Judge’s precise declaration is “No penalty for you!” To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty. remission of sins, and the washing away of sins (in the sense that God removes them from the books and does not hold them against us). This becomes clear as we follow Paul’s line of thought from Romans 3:27 through Romans 4:8.  After asserting the fact of and using the language of justification throughout this passage, Paul proves his point by citing Psalms 32:1-2, “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD will not take into account.” This shows that justification and forgiveness are one and the same. God justifies sinners by forgiving them, by not holding their sins against them.

It is important to see that justification is thus not a change in our character or in our inner nature; it is a change in our relationship to God and especially to God’s law. The change is objective, not subjective. It solves the problem of guilt, not the problem of corruption. It is also important to see that this change is not a gradual process, but is an immediate and complete change in our status before God. By God’s pronouncement, at a specific, instantaneous moment we are changed from being 0% unforgiven to being 100% forgiven before God. The abiding state of justification begins in that instant and continues in its fullness (100%) for as long as we remain in union with Christ. Justification is not just the forgiveness of individual sins, but the forgiveness of the entire person.

Now all of that dealt with the theological meaning, the definition, of justification of the sinner by God.  You can find most of this in the book The Faith Once For All, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press.  I highly recommend his book. 

It remains to determine the basis for that justification.  I will leave that for another time and I apologize for the length of this post, but I think, under the circumstances, it is important.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 07:37:35 by 4WD »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #2 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 07:35:29 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #3 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:24:52 »
Good post 4WD, well defined. He could not have said it any more clearly.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #3 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:24:52 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #4 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:42:11 »
What is faith . A substance . Its being in his kingdom. It’s not your faith but dwelling in his,  and in this you have faith to believe that you are saved . Outside of this good luck

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #4 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:42:11 »



Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:45:45 »
How good can you ever be . A life time of struggles . How good is your faith ? I just believe . He is faithful when we are not . And we are not

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:45:45 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #6 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:53:19 »
This is the faith of Jesus Christ . I will never leave you nor forsake you. Do I live in unbelief or the faith of Jesus Christ? Do I live in his word . Do I enter his kingdom and believe it when my faith fails, when I fail?
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:03:15 by Bemark »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #7 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:04:49 »
What is faith . A substance.
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:14:09 »
I agree with Yogi; very true words about justification clearly expressed above, 4WD.  I also was always told as a child growing up in Christian schools that justification could be remembered easily as “Just as if I had never sinned”.  Not quite the correct angle.  As more accurately described above, it’s “Just as if my penalty had been paid” instead.  And as you say, the question does remain as to the basis for that justification - just how that “covering” Paul spoke of is applied. 

Actually, that “covering” for sin is pictured most explicitly in Genesis, when God literally and physically made coats of skin to cover the naked bodies of the first couple after their sin of disobedience.  It never says Adam or Eve made these coats of skin for themselves.  GOD did the making of these coats and dressed the first couple Himself. 

This shows us that any covering we make for ourselves (just like the sewn fig leaves Adam and Eve tried to provide for themselves) is never sufficient to cover our sin.  GOD must do the work of justification, or it cannot be accepted by Him. 

“We know that God heareth not sinners.”  This being the case, God must FIRST justify the person by His own act, and then and ONLY THEN is He able to turn a hearing ear towards the justified individual who responds then in faith.  Human faith is just like the first drawn breath of a newborn child, demonstrating an already-existing life that was given to them by God that others can obviously see and recognize.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:14:09 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:18:12 »
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....
His faith IS the substance . It’s the kingdom . From his impartation form being WITH HIM we get the fruit of the spirit love joy peace etc . So we can do good works

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:23:11 »
You also have to understand that you also have to allow your faith to arise. You work with the faith of God


Or we say no to everything . You reject all

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:26:30 »
Go into the nations and preach the good word etc . You have to believe that God is with you on this because he said it. His faith your faith together .

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:29:54 »
What comes first . The chicken or the egg.

It was and always will be the faith of God .

We love him because he first loved us .

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:45:58 »
4WD covered it well.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #14 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:55:44 »
“We know that God heareth not sinners.”  This being the case, God must FIRST justify the person by His own act, and then and ONLY THEN is He able to turn a hearing ear towards the justified individual who responds then in faith.  Human faith is just like the first drawn breath of a newborn child, demonstrating an already-existing life that was given to them by God that others can obviously see and recognize.
That is not what God said about Abraham. It is said about Abraham "By faith....", i.e.,  it was because of his faith that he was justified.  There is no way to understand that Paul said or meant that Abraham believed God because God credited him with righteousness.

We do not believe in God because we have been regenerated; we are regenerated because we believe in God. If your view of this is correct, then God is terribly remiss in not regenerating everyone.  If the reason that those who hear do not believe is because God has not regenerated them, then it is God's fault  -- PERIOD.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:59:31 »
Please explain as long as we Matin in a relationship with God. Give me a example of time that one can be removed from the kingdom. Paul was like 14 years ? Moses ?

I really don’t believe a born again can deny Christ . It’s not possible

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #16 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:04:26 »
That is not what God said about Abraham. It is said about Abraham "By faith....", i.e.,  it was because of his faith that he was justified.  There is no way to understand that Paul said or meant that Abraham believed God because God credited him with righteousness.

We do not believe in God because we have been regenerated; we are regenerated because we believe in God. If your view of this is correct, then God is terribly remiss in not regenerating everyone.  If the reason that those who hear do not believe is because God has not regenerated them, then it is God's fault  -- PERIOD.
4wd can God speak really loud so every one can hear? And in hearing without deception accept him? Is God mean?

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #17 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:08:40 »
Job encounters

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #18 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:17:38 »
So when the Lord reaches out his saving Hand  towards us . Is there a legal right. Did our parents pray for us. Does the Lord now have to Make his face shine upon us.  Interesting 

The spiritual realm is about rules and contracts. What did God say and who up holds his word ?

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #19 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:29:15 »
Once you have figured it out you will make a claim to that what is yours in the spirit. Be blessed . You have to get this .

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #20 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:31:37 »
Quote
I really don’t believe a born again can deny Christ . It’s not possible

2Pe 2:20-22 — For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #21 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:35:26 »
Bemark, OSAS is off topic to this thread if you want to pursue it you need to start a new thread.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #22 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:41:50 »
Ok brother yes the word is true. I struggle to understand how one can. But yes it is so. Points to u my dear brother in the lord for keeping me on track. I love you for looking after me .

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #23 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:43:43 »
Yogi bear  :) thankyou

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:03:20 »
I believe once believing and also believing forever saved

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:08:50 »
Yogi what was the holy commandment delivered unto them? I haven’t a clue but interested

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:17:22 »
Maybe it should be if Father God has given Jesus us, then we can’t be lost . Would this be correct now? It’s got nothing to do with us but Gods selection.

Online Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 13:26:17 »
Does accepting the invitation to a free gift add anything to the price of the free gift? OF COURSE NOT.  Or doesnit imply in anyway that we save ourselves. WE DO NOT. Invitation songs are sung and altar calls are given for a reason.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 15:14:29 by Jaime »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 13:42:30 »
4WD, you speak as if somehow God is indebted to His own created world of humanity, and is answerable to their idea of fairness.  He’s not.  You’ve got it upside down.  God is not “terribly remiss” in not regenerating everyone who is in rebellion against Him.  The guilt lies at their feet, and God actually owes them nothing.  The miracle is that He offers grace to anyone at all.

Abraham’s faith was counted as a righteous act, but it was not what turned him from a sinner into a righteous individual.  That is presuming an extension of logic that goes beyond the language of the Romans 4:3 context.

We are told that God gave Abram the name of Abraham, speaking in the past tense as He said “I *HAVE* (already) MADE THEE the father of many nations.”  Abraham’s “Seed” was going to be not just righteous Isaac, but all from every nation who ever were born or who would eventually be born that would “walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham” (Rom. 4:12).

This would require God to “quicken the DEAD” (who, before God quickens them to life are not even remotely capable of displaying living, acceptable faith).   God had already determined who would exercise this response of faith by “calling those things which BE NOT” (in existence yet) “as though they were” (Rom. 4:17).   In other words, God was then announcing to Abraham that He had already identified a promised group of individuals, most yet to be born, who were identified as the “SEED” of Abraham.  No faith had been exercised yet by most of these, since the majority had not even been conceived in time yet as of God’s announcement to Abraham. 

And yet not a single one of that already-identified “seed”, in the process of time, would fail to exhibit that exercise of a living faith as their first acceptable act of righteousness.

You’re getting the cart before the horse, 4WD.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:14:18 »
4WD, you speak as if somehow God is indebted to His own created world of humanity, and is answerable to their idea of fairness.  He’s not.  You’ve got it upside down.  God is not “terribly remiss” in not regenerating everyone who is in rebellion against Him.  The guilt lies at their feet, and God actually owes them nothing.
No, God is not indebted to anyone but Himself; and in that He is indebted to speak truthfully, for that is who He is.  If the only reason that anyone is in rebellion against Him is that He did not or has not regenerated them, then He is at fault.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
The miracle is that He offers grace to anyone at all.
Well first of all, that He offers grace to anyone is not a miracle, at least in the biblical meaning of a miracle.  And second, He has not kept it a secret about to whom He offers grace.  And if you understood what you read about Abraham, you would know that.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
Abraham’s faith was counted as a righteous act
And yet again, the Bible does not say that.  It doesn't say Abraham's faith was counted as a righteous act.  It says that Abraham's faith was credited to him, reckoned to him, counted to him as righteousness.  Moreover, Paul said "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness"(Rom 4:5 ). He further stated that it was David who said the same thing, namely, "the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Rom 4:6); and then he follows that with "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.  Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them" (Rom 4:7-8). Now if you do not see that as being declared righteous, as being justified, then you most definitely do not understand even what salvation is all about.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #30 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:19:58 »
You’re getting the cart before the horse, 4WD.
No 3 Res, I am not.  It is you and the rest of the Calvinists, the Reformed Theologians, the TULIP Baptists, and probably a few more who have the cart before the horse.  I think sometimes that none of you even have the horse harnessed and hitched to the cart.

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #31 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 15:25:45 »
I see this has been a very busy thread today~that's a good thing. I trust everyone would be kind to Mark, he a good brother and is still trying to figure these things out. I will come in the morning and go over these again and answer some of them.

Johntwayne, please do not let 4WD do your work for you, I would love to see you post your understanding since it was you that called me out. Now, do not take me wrong, NO PROBLEM calling any man out, just you should able to prove them wrong. Do not follow 4WD, for he is following a person who is deeply deceived~ Jack Cottrell. I have read some of his weak, distorted arguments, a few times, even before he ever posted them here.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 16:05:47 »
Well, 4WD, I do know that Christ gave us the proper steps in the order of salvation in John 6:37 & 44.

After reproving the Jews who saw Him and the miracles He had done, but yet believed not, Jesus told them “All that the Father giveth me” (step #1) “shall come to me;” (step #2) “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”  This places the proper order of God “giving” the “seed” to Christ FIRST, who AFTER THAT would all without fail come to Jesus, who would never cast them out. 

Jesus further followed this by saying “that of all that the Father giveth me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”  Not one of the promised “seed” of faith ever falls between the cracks and is ever lost, but all the promised “seed” without exception come to Christ and eventually are bodily-raised in a resurrection to everlasting life.  And this applies to the majority of all humanity, not the minority.  That’s because salvation is compared to a wheat harvest - not a tares harvest, which typically do not form the majority of the crop harvested.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 16:16:43 »
Why should I post RB. You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place, and 4WD is doing a good job.

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #34 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 05:00:30 »
Why should I post RB. You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place, and 4WD is doing a good job.
You should want to post concerning this essential question of this thread.
Quote from: poor johntwayne
"You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place"
JohnT~I did if you would take off your blinders and lay aside your church's doctrine and consider only the word of God's teaching on this subject. "If" you feel that it has not been answered then prove it and not hide under 4WD's coattail for he's banking on Jack Cottrell being right more than on God's testimony. Not a safe place to hide~I rather make God my hiding place. The Wiseman said: "He who follows the blind will end up in the same ditch." 

Come on out and show me YOUR understanding, after all, you threw the first stone....and you missed, would you not like to at least hit me with just one stone?

I admire your desire to be a prayer warrior for all who ask for prayers, VERY COMMENDABLE, and I say this in all sincerity~ but would like to see YOU defend your strong stance against the doctrine of grace. 
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 05:03:51 by RB »

 

     
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