Author Topic: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?  (Read 5797 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #175 on: Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 13:17:18 »
As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise.....
Where do you read that?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #175 on: Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 13:17:18 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #176 on: Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 14:05:48 »
The “faith of Christ” is the gift of faith ORIGINATING FROM CHRIST as its source of that gift.  Once given to an individual who begins to exercise that faith, it then can be described and truly spoken of as “the faith of Abraham”, for example.

Here’s an example:  If a parent owns a house, and then bequeaths that house as an inheritance to their son or daughter, that house can then be truly spoken of as the house belonging to the son or daughter after that point.  But we know that the house was originally a gift possessed by the parent to be given - or not - at their discretion. 

The semantics are where much of the confusion lies...

John 6:28-29 illustrates the concept I’m describing.  “Then said they unto him, What shall *WE* DO, that we might work the WORKS OF GOD?  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF *GOD*, that YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent.”  All credit for the actual performance of that belief originated as a work of God instilling belief in that person to begin with. 

To the outward observer, that act of belief tends to be mainly associated with the one they see visibly exercising that gift of belief.  But we should never forget that “every good gift, and every perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights...”

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #177 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 06:26:45 »
Wrong! Their question was "what must we do.....".  That question was in response to Jesus telling them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life...."  Jesus' answer to their question of what must the do was that they must work and that work was "that you believe in him whom he has sent."

To believe in Him is to have faith in Him.  That is what faith is.  There is nothing in Jesus' answer that says anything about faith as a gift.  Clearly Jesus' says that it is work, something that they must do; and they no doubt understood that it was not a gift, but was something that they had to do.  And there is nothing in Jesus' answer that contradicts anything that Paul had to say.  Paul does tell us where that faith comes from; it comes from "hearing the word about Jesus Christ"(Rom 10:17).

Your confusion, if there is any, is in what faith in God is.  And that is semantics; specifically the meaning of the English word faith as being somehow different from believing in God.  Faith in God is believing in God.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #177 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 06:26:45 »

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #178 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:24:08 »
Hey 4WD,

When Christ said in John 6:29 that “This is the work OF GOD...”, He meant that their belief in Him was CREDITED TO GOD.  He was underscoring the fact that their belief in God was a work instigated by God Himself, and not them.

This is consistent with all the rest of scripture.  Like the example of Lydia, “whose heart THE *LORD* OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul” (Acts 16:14).

Like the text of Proverbs 20:12, “The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, THE LORD hath made even both of them.”  In a list given of virtues and vices, this Proverb credits the ability to spiritually “hear” and to “see” as the work of God making that ability to apprehend spiritual things. 

Another couple verses in this Proverbs 20 chapter remind me very much of the way you post on this subject, 4WD.  Verse 6 says “Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness...”. To credit yourself with originating the ability to first believe on Christ is to “proclaim your own goodness”.  Many on this forum do the same, which this Proverbs 20:6 verse readily acknowledges as a widespread problem.

Proverbs 20:9 asks the rhetorical question, “Who can say *I* have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?”  The obvious intended response is that NO ONE can declare that they can originate the cleansing of their own heart.  This cleansing must be originated by an outward agency, independent of the individual, or it will never get done. 

A new car engine can be cranked all day long, but unless someone has put gas in the tank to begin with, that car ain’t going anywhere.  And that car never fuels itself. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #178 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:24:08 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #179 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:44:46 »
Hey 4WD,

When Christ said in John 6:29 that “This is the work OF GOD...”, He meant that their belief in Him was CREDITED TO GOD.  He was underscoring the fact that their belief in God was a work instigated by God Himself, and not them.
Hey 3 Res,

That is not what He said at all.  And it certainly is not what He meant.  His answer was a direct response to their question. And their question was not about something CREDITED TO GOD. Their question was about what THEY MUST DO. Jesus answered their question with what THEY MUST DO.  That was made even clearer later when Jesus said, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst (v.35).

It is really too bad that given the importance of faith in God, you do not even understand what faith is and how one comes to have faith in God.  It is not a gift, it is in fact a work.  It is not a work of Law, but it is a work; Jesus said so.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:37:55 by 4WD »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #179 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:44:46 »



Offline yogi bear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12412
  • Manna: 746
  • Gender: Male
  • I TOO AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #180 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:09:48 »
 ::eatingpopcorn: ::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:38:20 by yogi bear »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #180 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:09:48 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #181 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:48:31 »
To credit yourself with originating the ability to first believe on Christ is to “proclaim your own goodness”.  Many on this forum do the same, which this Proverbs 20:6 verse readily acknowledges as a widespread problem.
Yes the ability to believe, of course, originates with God.  That ability is inherent in the creation of man.  Whether one actually believes and/or believes in anything, including God, is at the discretion of each individual.  The individual, not God, decides who or what he believes and believes in.  If it were up to God, then absolutely everyone would believe Him and believe in Him.  That should be obvious to anyone with a correct understanding of who and what God is and what God created when He created man.  Unfortunately, you and too many others, apparently do not understand any of that.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37215
  • Manna: 793
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #182 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:58:20 »
AND no need for the Great Commission. And John 3:16 would have to be revised.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 09:12:07 by Jaime »

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #183 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 09:38:01 »
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?  As I’ve been trying to present this, it’s BOTH.

Paul expresses this in terms of BOTH / AND in Philippians 2:12-13.  “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.  FOR” (here Paul explains just how their performance of that work is even possible) “It is *GOD* WHICH WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure.”

In this passage, Paul gives credit to GOD as originating the inclination as well as the actual performance of acts done by the obedient saints that are pleasing to God.  (Just like Jesus credited the work of belief to God in John 6:29, counter to what His audience was thinking was their own works.)  If this is true of the living saints even AFTER being regenerated by God, then it is also true of their condition BEFORE that regeneration.

4WD, I totally understand the gut reaction against crediting God instead of ourselves with our ability to act in faith.  I myself am an old independent cuss that resents having decisions made for me.  Even as a believer, the verse I once HATED to read - and I mean REALLY HAAAAATED - was Psalms 47:2-4.  It says “For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.  He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.  HE SHALL CHOOSE OUR INHERITANCE FOR US, the excellency of Jacob which he loved.  Selah.”

My total resentment was that God chose my own inheritance for me without consulting me as to whether I wanted my life circumstances to turn out the way they did.  Because, even by acting in trustful faith with full efforts at trying to please God, my marriage turned absolutely ugly for about 20 years.   Such despair I would not wish on my worst enemy - to feel that the very heavens are turned against you, and that God had specifically CHOSEN this as my inheritance.  And yes, while immersed in the middle of it, I railed against the Almighty for planning this for me.   

On the other side of emerging from the worst of this situation, upon calmer reflection I have been able to see exactly why God determined this course for my life.  Believe it or not, I have been able with tears of actual gratitude to thank God and praise Him for His plan for my life, though I would not have chosen it for myself if given the chance.

It is fear of being powerless that makes us want to grab the reins in an effort to control our own destiny - either before or after our regeneration to life.  Such fear does not act in full trust of the Creator.

“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #183 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 09:38:01 »

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #184 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 13:19:03 »
If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?

4WD, yes. Jesus had faith in these words:Isaiah 58:6-14 "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke. Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to the house your poor who are cast out; when you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh? THEN your light shall break break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS shall go before you; the glory of the lord shall be your rear guard. THEN you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, "Here I am". If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness. ........................................


Hebrews 5:5-9 " Christ did not glorify Himself.....It was (God) who said to Him: "You are my Son, today I have begotten You." and "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."

verse 7: (Christ) who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to ( God) who was able to save him from death, and was heard BECAUSE of His Godly fear, Verse 8 though He was a Son , yet he learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9; And having been perfected ( declared righteous according to the standards of the One True God) , He became the author of salvation to all who obey Him."

There is very little said about Abraham in the Bible that we use. However, other faiths tell stories about him. It seems that both Abraham and Jesus believed in and followed the Law of reciprocity, "Which can be clearly seen and understood by the things that are made."

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8731
  • Manna: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #185 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 13:56:31 »
Where do you read that?
Just got back from out of town, I'll answer your posts in the morning~I'm tired from traveling on a very busy I-85 from North of Atlanta, Georiga to Greenville, S.C.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #186 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 14:46:20 »
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?  As I’ve been trying to present this, it’s BOTH.
Why?  Because faith is not a gift.  The abilities to hear, to think, to understand, to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.  Doing any of them is not a gift; it is something we do.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #187 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 14:50:17 »
If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?
4WD, yes.
No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #188 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 16:28:43 »
Technically speaking, 4WD, I can agree with the way you expressed your last comment:

“The abilities to hear, to think, to understand,  to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.”  That’s very true of the original creation of mankind in Eden, but ESPECIALLY OF THE *NEW* CREATION Paul spoke of in II Cor. 5:17.  “So that if anyone be in Christ, there is a NEW CREATION: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things.  And all things are OF GOD, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.” Man does not really have the ability to “create” something out of nothing.  That ability to create ex nihilo is uniquely “OF GOD”, especially in salvation’s sense of the “New Creation”.

Here’s one more text example illustrating on the one hand man’s duty to exercise works of faith, as well as pointing out on the other hand how God originated that faith to begin with.  Paul covered this subject with the Corinthians in I Cor. 4:2-7.  “Moreover, it is REQUIRED in stewards that a man be found FAITHFUL.”  God has a right to expect His servants to work out acts of faithfulness.  And in the judgment of rewards for the righteous, whether we may have performed little or much, God most generously promises that “...then shall EVERY MAN have praise from God.” (v. 5).  God is not unrighteous to forget our work and labor of love...(Heb. 6:10).

Paul then cautioned the Corinthians against comparing men and their accomplishments with each other, with a most convicting question; “For who made thee to differ from another? AND WHAT HAST THOU THAT THOU DIDST NOT RECEIVE?”  The obvious conclusion to this rhetorical question meant that there was NOTHING good that had not been GIVEN to them of which they could boast.  Paul then asked them, “Now if thou didst receive it, WHY DOST THOU GLORY AS IF THOU HADST NOT RECEIVED IT?”

These same convicting questions in I Cor. 4:7 can be asked of anyone claiming credit for themselves in being a “new creation” in salvation.  If we, like the Corinthian believers, have nothing which we did not receive, then why should we glory as if we had not received it?

I cannot even draw my next breath to speak words of faith without God sustaining for me the breath of life in my lungs.  “In him we live and move and have our being.”  And yet in the final judgment, God will still offer words of praise to every one of us for what He assisted us to accomplish.  Unfathomable generosity.

 

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #189 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 19:21:12 »
Technically speaking, 4WD, I can agree with the way you expressed your last comment:

“The abilities to hear, to think, to understand,  to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.”  That’s very true of the original creation of mankind in Eden, but ESPECIALLY OF THE *NEW* CREATION Paul spoke of in II Cor. 5:17.  “So that if anyone be in Christ, there is a NEW CREATION: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things.  And all things are OF GOD, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.” Man does not really have the ability to “create” something out of nothing.  That ability to create ex nihilo is uniquely “OF GOD”, especially in salvation’s sense of the “New Creation”.
Yes but unlike the false theology of Calvinism and Reformed Theology, the new creation is an act of God on the believer, not vice versa.  The IF-THEN construction of verse 17 makes that clear enough for anyone willing to take Paul's words for what he says.  And I prefer the interpretation of the Greek ktisis as creature, not creation.  I will update what I said there as, “The abilities to hear, to think, to understand, to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His ORIGINAL creation of mankind.”  All of those qualities and abilities are present within mankind generally, except for the very young or the mentally deficient; they are not changed in making the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins alive together with Christ.  The new creature, the new man, is one regenerated.  Same spirit, just regenerated.  The sins making him spiritually dead are forgiven and he is declared righteous making him spiritually alive again.
Quote
I cannot even draw my next breath to speak words of faith without God sustaining for me the breath of life in my lungs.  “In him we live and move and have our being.”
That is a nice sentiment, but I I don't that it is strictly and literally true.  And to the extent that it is true, it can be said only for the one who has been saved and so doesn't have application to the question in the OP.

But I do appreciate your thoughts as you presented them there.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #190 on: Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 23:36:35 »
I respectfully disagree with you that Israel was... to act as a priesthood among all the nations of the earth... I know of no scriptures which would support that theory~maybe you can show me.
I've got plenty of Scripture in my back pocket, but quoting it back and forth (and usually out-of-context) isn't persuasive.  Let's start with a question, instead (and I think the Scripture will creep in as we answer it):

Do you think that the NT Church was meant to hold such a position?

I would answer in the affirmative... verses like ye-are-the-salt-of-the-world, and ye-are-the-light-of-the-world leave little doubt.  Salt isn't eaten alone, it seasons the whole meal.  A light isn't lit just to be hid under the metaphorical bushel.

So, then, seeing that the NT church was meant to act as a priesthood to all mankind, I would argue that Israel first occupied that position.  Further, the church occupies it because she is functioning in the capacity meant for Israel. 

Not to belabor the point, but the verses I quoted before make the point best:

Exodus 19:6  And ye [Israel] shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.


In case it isn't evident, Peter is quoting Moses.  The verbiage is the same... priesthood... holy nation.  The position Peter gives the Church is the same position Moses gave Israel.

But don't let it rest on two verses.  Read all of 1Peter 2.  I think you will find that the thesis of the chapter is that the church is meant to MODEL the behavior God desires from the world.

I may respond to the rest of your post later, but I'm stopping here for now.

Jarrod

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #191 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:01:11 »
No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.

4WD, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but on this point we differ. Yes, Jesus had faith which is what we are discussing, "the faith of Christ". Jesus believed in something or someone. He served as an example of the kind of faith that we should all have, complete trust and faith in God. "And He ( Christ) was heard because of His Godly fear." As Proverbs 14:26 says " In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence ( faith, trust)."

" And having been perfected He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
James 2:22-23 is speaking about Abraham but it is the same way in which Jesus was perfected ( righteous according to the One True God), faith and works.
22 'Do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect? "And the scripture was fulfilled which says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jesus believed in the words of Isaiah. He believed in "Love your neighbor as yourself." and he lived by these words.

In saying Jesus faith=Abraham's faith, I mean that they believed in the same God and in the same word of God.
For example, the Catholic faith is not equal to the Protestant faith. Tom may belong to the Catholic faith while Jim is a member of the Protestant faith. Tom's faith is not equal to Jim's faith. Now if Jim were a Catholic then Tom's faith = Jim's faith because they both believe in what the Catholic Church teaches as God's word.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:32:37 by bel »

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #192 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:17:48 »


So, then, seeing that the NT church was meant to act as a priesthood to all mankind, I would argue that Israel first occupied that position.  Further, the church occupies it because she is functioning in the capacity meant for Israel. 

Not to belabor the point, but the verses I quoted before make the point best:

Exodus 19:6  And ye [Israel] shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.


But don't let it rest on two verses.  Read all of 1Peter 2.  I think you will find that the thesis of the chapter is that the church is meant to MODEL the behavior God desires from the world.

I may respond to the rest of your post later, but I'm stopping here for now.

Jarrod

Jarrod, again you've made some good points. It was the priesthood of Melchizedek  that Abraham followed, not the Levitical law. Hebrews 5:6 says "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8731
  • Manna: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #193 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:26:43 »
I've got plenty of Scripture in my back pocket, but quoting it back and forth (and usually out-of-context) isn't persuasive.  Let's start with a question, instead (and I think the Scripture will creep in as we answer it):
I would love to consider this particular subject here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/is-the-'great-commission'-for-the-nt-church-today/ but not here in this thread. I desire to keep this one on its proper track~but it is hard, even for me.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #194 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 04:31:05 »
Quote from: RB
As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise...
Where do you read that?
Yeah, I don't remember the Bible supplying much detail about Abraham's early life, either.

This also doesn't match Jewish tradition.  Traditionally, Abram's father Terah as an idol-maker by trade.  Abraham, seeing that the idols were nothing but wood or stone, grows up to become an iconoclast in opposition to his family.  Or so the story goes.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #195 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 05:13:30 »
It was the priesthood of Melchizedek that Abraham followed, not the Levitical law.
It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15674
  • Manna: 195
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #196 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 07:00:25 »
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?
Because of a misunderstanding of the term "work" by rabid antinomians.  They define anything and everything as a "work" to be avoided.

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #197 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 13:27:33 »
It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.

Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.

I think at that time, it was the normal belief that God only speaks to certain people and THEY tell you what God says. As the people told Moses " Do not let God speak to us lest we die. "But the God Abraham believed in was different. This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says. "The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it."

Although there is little to be said about Abraham in the Bible, it is apparent that the Ten Commandments were known. These all fall under the category of loving your neighbor as yourself- the Law of reciprocity.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 13:57:56 by bel »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15674
  • Manna: 195
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #198 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 14:03:21 »
Many consider Melchizedek to be a "theophany" or "christophany."  That means that He was the pre-incarnate Messiah who appeared to Abe.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8731
  • Manna: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #199 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 15:36:03 »
Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.
Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the garce of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel, which is not another, for there's only one taught in the holy scriptures that exalts one man, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The comparison of Melchizedek and Jesus Christ is a wonderful subject but is not part of this discussion. Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy. Yet we can discuss this in a separate thread. if someone desires to start one.
Quote from:  bel on: Today at 13:27:33
This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says.
Two things: All men are not on the same intelligent levels~above that.....coming to a true biblical knowledge of God, is a gift form heaven, it does not come through the will of the flesh or the will of man having some special powers/gifts whereby they can reveal God to a person~it come through divine revelation from the Spirit of God!
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:17-20~"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
One more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Maybe one more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #200 on: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 23:27:29 »



Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the garce of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel, which is not another, for there's only one taught in the holy scriptures that exalts one man, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Quote
From bel: James 2:22-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that that faith was working together with his works, and by works (Abraham's) faith was made perfect?
Quote
From bel:God said to Abraham : walk before Me and be blameless and I will make you exceedingly fruitful and I will make YOUR name great.
Two things: All men are not on the same intelligent levels~above that.....coming to a true biblical knowledge of God, is a gift form heaven, it does not come through the will of the flesh or the will of man having some special powers/gifts whereby they can reveal God to a person~it come through divine revelation from the Spirit of God!



Quote
From bel: Romans 1:19-20 " Because what may be known of God is manifest in them,for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made."

"The word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart that you may obey it."

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 23:39:53 by bel »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #201 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:01:47 »
Many consider Melchizedek to be a "theophany" or "christophany."  That means that He was the pre-incarnate Messiah who appeared to Abe.
Many do... but it appears to be based on a bad reading of Hebrews.

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #202 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:10:54 »
 As Scripture says Abraham wasn't the father of "seeds" as of many, but one "seed".
This means that Abraham was not the father of the Jewish faith. He wasn't the father of the Islamic faith, nor the Catholic faith, the Protestant faith etc.etc. It is impossible for Abraham to be the father of ALL these different faiths.He was the father of ONE faith in one God and one word- The Golden Rule, which was same faith as that of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:23:30 by bel »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #203 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:11:36 »
Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the grace of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness.
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying.  Can you re-write that sentence using only words in the vernacular?  Just pretend I'm a small child as you explain.

Otherwise, it looks like you're saying Abraham had no faith, which obviously isn't right, and can't be the point, so I'm misunderstanding.

Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy.
I agree.  That's some bad theology.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13332
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #204 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:15:37 »
He was the father of one faith in one God and one word- The Golden Rule, which was same faith as that of Jesus Christ.
I've seen you come back to the Golden Rule several times, and each time, I want to add the other commandment which stands beside it in the New Testament:

Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart

Between the two, we have the whole Law and Prophets.

bel

  • Guest
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #205 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:30:55 »
I've seen you come back to the Golden Rule several times, and each time, I want to add the other commandment which stands beside it in the New Testament:

Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart

Between the two, we have the whole Law and Prophets.

From bel: true. But I suppose if you do not love your neighbor as yourself, you wouldn't be loving God either.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8731
  • Manna: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #206 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 04:26:25 »
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying. 
Greetings Jarroh, I can truly understand how you would say I'm using jargon words, when if I was speaking five hundred to even 250 years ago, all serious bible theologians would know, whether or not they agree is a different story.  http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/JustificationbyChristAloneSR.htm written around five hundred years ago. Also, one written around three hundred years ago:  https://libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm  so, it was once the main doctrine that they engage in to exalt as the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, now, very few have ever consider this blessed truths. Being an avid reader of religious books I have read much of the past history of mainly the protestant movement and the main voices behind that movement and the main teachings from 1400 to where we are now. So sad to see the doctrine of justification almost lost in the masses of false religions now covering this world.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 00:11:36
Can you re-write that sentence using only words in the vernacular?  Just pretend I'm a small child as you explain.
You are far from being a child, I would put you right along the side of 4WD in being very gifted, yet we all can be a little child when it comes to many different doctrines, ideologies, etc. I'm more so than most, for if you get me out of debating religions, then you most likely would be using many jargon words that would have very little meaning to me~the truth be told, I'm a simple person outside of this bubble.

Instead of re-writing in a vernacular language where the modern man can grasp, please at your convenience read one of the two articles above~preferring Samuel Richardson, but either are very good. What I will do is persue the life of Abraham and the timeline of when God's words said:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Maybe tomorrow, if not later today.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 04:28:37 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8731
  • Manna: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #207 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 04:51:51 »
James 2:22-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that that faith was working together with his works, and by works (Abraham's) faith was made perfect?
Quote from: James
James 2:23~"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Abraham’s trust in God’s promise secured a preliminary declaration of his righteousness (Genesis 15:6). God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness was confirmed by his actions on Moriah (Genesis 22:12). Abraham was called the friend of God as a result of his faithful actions (2nd Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8). Please remember Abraham was a just and righteous man,  living by faith, long before he got to Genesis 15:6~people seem to conveniently overlook this truth...... It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.
Quote from: James
James 2:24~"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
What can we see from Abraham’s history? The real evidence proving righteousness requires works. What we see is that Genesis 15:6 is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without Gen 22:12! Those who cry, “Sola Fide,” and think that Genesis 15:6 is the end of justification are wrong. Abraham’s subjective justification by faith was made complete or perfect by his further works. Justification is being declared righteous by God: Abraham was declared so by faith and works. It is vain confidence to trust in some belief, decision, or profession of Jesus without good works. Abraham’s actual justification, or acceptance and acquittal with God, was by Christ! James did not teach justification by the works that Paul condemned, or the Bible lies (2nd Peter 1:20). Paul rejected Jewish legalists and their trust in Moses’ law by teaching the historical fact of God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness by virtue of his great act of faith (Genesis 15:6). James taught that any man’s faith without works was not nearly, justification, or the hope of future glorification.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11753
  • Manna: 314
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #208 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 07:35:00 »
It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.
One of the travesties of Bible interpretation is changing the very clear meaning of a verse such as Genesis 15:6 by inserting words or thoughts which are not there.  There is absolutely no way to accurately interpret that verse except that Abraham was justified, i.e., declared righteous, because he believed in God.  That is one of the key messages of the entire Bible. It is stated again and again, especially in the NT.   There is not even an inkling of the faith of Abraham being evidence of anything. Think whatever you want, but that verse says that "He (God) counted it (Abraham believed in the LORD) to him for righteousness."

The clarity of that simple truth was echoed by Paul in Romans 4:3 in an almost word for word repeating of Genesis 15:6.  And there again, it is obvious in its clarity. It is worthwhile to follow down a couple of verses there in Romans 4 where Paul says in verse 5 that "his (Abraham's) faith is counted for righteousness". Paul goes on through that chapter to discuss Abraham's faith and capped it off with 'He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it (Abraham's strong faith) was imputed to him for righteousness" (vv 20-22). Here being "fully persuaded" is the equivalent of "believing in". Paul follows that immediately with the application of the truth of our faith being reckoned to us for righteousness stating that  "it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (vv. 23-25).

As if that were not enough, Paul immediately states in the very next two verses "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom 5:1-2).   And given the discussion in the chapter four, it is, without question, our faith that Paul is speaking of.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Manna: 26
  • That’s 666 YEARS, people.
Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #209 on: Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 09:49:29 »
4WD, keep going just a couple verses later from Romans 5:1-2 with its “being justified by faith” to Romans 5:9.  “Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY *HIS BLOOD*, we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH *HIM*” (not through us).

Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness, true, but that is not a statement saying that it MADE him righteous to begin with.