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As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise.....

Where do you read that?

Wrong! Their question was "what must we do.....".  That question was in response to Jesus telling them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life...."  Jesus' answer to their question of what must the do was that they must work and that work was "that you believe in him whom he has sent."

To believe in Him is to have faith in Him.  That is what faith is.  There is nothing in Jesus' answer that says anything about faith as a gift.  Clearly Jesus' says that it is work, something that they must do; and they no doubt understood that it was not a gift, but was something that they had to do.  And there is nothing in Jesus' answer that contradicts anything that Paul had to say.  Paul does tell us where that faith comes from; it comes from "hearing the word about Jesus Christ"(Rom 10:17).

Your confusion, if there is any, is in what faith in God is.  And that is semantics; specifically the meaning of the English word faith as being somehow different from believing in God.  Faith in God is believing in God.

Hey 4WD,

When Christ said in John 6:29 that “This is the work OF GOD...”, He meant that their belief in Him was CREDITED TO GOD.  He was underscoring the fact that their belief in God was a work instigated by God Himself, and not them.

Hey 3 Res,

That is not what He said at all.  And it certainly is not what He meant.  His answer was a direct response to their question. And their question was not about something CREDITED TO GOD. Their question was about what THEY MUST DO. Jesus answered their question with what THEY MUST DO.  That was made even clearer later when Jesus said, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst (v.35).

It is really too bad that given the importance of faith in God, you do not even understand what faith is and how one comes to have faith in God.  It is not a gift, it is in fact a work.  It is not a work of Law, but it is a work; Jesus said so.

To credit yourself with originating the ability to first believe on Christ is to “proclaim your own goodness”.  Many on this forum do the same, which this Proverbs 20:6 verse readily acknowledges as a widespread problem.

Yes the ability to believe, of course, originates with God.  That ability is inherent in the creation of man.  Whether one actually believes and/or believes in anything, including God, is at the discretion of each individual.  The individual, not God, decides who or what he believes and believes in.  If it were up to God, then absolutely everyone would believe Him and believe in Him.  That should be obvious to anyone with a correct understanding of who and what God is and what God created when He created man.  Unfortunately, you and too many others, apparently do not understand any of that.

Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?  As I’ve been trying to present this, it’s BOTH.

Paul expresses this in terms of BOTH / AND in Philippians 2:12-13.  “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.  FOR” (here Paul explains just how their performance of that work is even possible) “It is *GOD* WHICH WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure.”

In this passage, Paul gives credit to GOD as originating the inclination as well as the actual performance of acts done by the obedient saints that are pleasing to God.  (Just like Jesus credited the work of belief to God in John 6:29, counter to what His audience was thinking was their own works.)  If this is true of the living saints even AFTER being regenerated by God, then it is also true of their condition BEFORE that regeneration.

4WD, I totally understand the gut reaction against crediting God instead of ourselves with our ability to act in faith.  I myself am an old independent cuss that resents having decisions made for me.  Even as a believer, the verse I once HATED to read - and I mean REALLY HAAAAATED - was Psalms 47:2-4.  It says “For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.  He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.  HE SHALL CHOOSE OUR INHERITANCE FOR US, the excellency of Jacob which he loved.  Selah.”

My total resentment was that God chose my own inheritance for me without consulting me as to whether I wanted my life circumstances to turn out the way they did.  Because, even by acting in trustful faith with full efforts at trying to please God, my marriage turned absolutely ugly for about 20 years.   Such despair I would not wish on my worst enemy - to feel that the very heavens are turned against you, and that God had specifically CHOSEN this as my inheritance.  And yes, while immersed in the middle of it, I railed against the Almighty for planning this for me.   

On the other side of emerging from the worst of this situation, upon calmer reflection I have been able to see exactly why God determined this course for my life.  Believe it or not, I have been able with tears of actual gratitude to thank God and praise Him for His plan for my life, though I would not have chosen it for myself if given the chance.

It is fear of being powerless that makes us want to grab the reins in an effort to control our own destiny - either before or after our regeneration to life.  Such fear does not act in full trust of the Creator.

“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Where do you read that?

Just got back from out of town, I'll answer your posts in the morning~I'm tired from traveling on a very busy I-85 from North of Atlanta, Georiga to Greenville, S.C.

If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?

4WD, yes.

No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.

Technically speaking, 4WD, I can agree with the way you expressed your last comment:

“The abilities to hear, to think, to understand,  to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.”  That’s very true of the original creation of mankind in Eden, but ESPECIALLY OF THE *NEW* CREATION Paul spoke of in II Cor. 5:17.  “So that if anyone be in Christ, there is a NEW CREATION: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things.  And all things are OF GOD, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.” Man does not really have the ability to “create” something out of nothing.  That ability to create ex nihilo is uniquely “OF GOD”, especially in salvation’s sense of the “New Creation”.

Yes but unlike the false theology of Calvinism and Reformed Theology, the new creation is an act of God on the believer, not vice versa.  The IF-THEN construction of verse 17 makes that clear enough for anyone willing to take Paul's words for what he says.  And I prefer the interpretation of the Greek ktisis as creature, not creation.  I will update what I said there as, “The abilities to hear, to think, to understand, to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His ORIGINAL creation of mankind.”  All of those qualities and abilities are present within mankind generally, except for the very young or the mentally deficient; they are not changed in making the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins alive together with Christ.  The new creature, the new man, is one regenerated.  Same spirit, just regenerated.  The sins making him spiritually dead are forgiven and he is declared righteous making him spiritually alive again.

I cannot even draw my next breath to speak words of faith without God sustaining for me the breath of life in my lungs.  “In him we live and move and have our being.”

That is a nice sentiment, but I I don't that it is strictly and literally true.  And to the extent that it is true, it can be said only for the one who has been saved and so doesn't have application to the question in the OP.

But I do appreciate your thoughts as you presented them there.

No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.

4WD, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but on this point we differ. Yes, Jesus had faith which is what we are discussing, "the faith of Christ". Jesus believed in something or someone. He served as an example of the kind of faith that we should all have, complete trust and faith in God. "And He ( Christ) was heard because of His Godly fear." As Proverbs 14:26 says " In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence ( faith, trust)."

" And having been perfected He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
James 2:22-23 is speaking about Abraham but it is the same way in which Jesus was perfected ( righteous according to the One True God), faith and works.
22 'Do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect? "And the scripture was fulfilled which says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jesus believed in the words of Isaiah. He believed in "Love your neighbor as yourself." and he lived by these words.

In saying Jesus faith=Abraham's faith, I mean that they believed in the same God and in the same word of God.
For example, the Catholic faith is not equal to the Protestant faith. Tom may belong to the Catholic faith while Jim is a member of the Protestant faith. Tom's faith is not equal to Jim's faith. Now if Jim were a Catholic then Tom's faith = Jim's faith because they both believe in what the Catholic Church teaches as God's word.

I've got plenty of Scripture in my back pocket, but quoting it back and forth (and usually out-of-context) isn't persuasive.  Let's start with a question, instead (and I think the Scripture will creep in as we answer it):

I would love to consider this particular subject here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/is-the-'great-commission'-for-the-nt-church-today/ but not here in this thread. I desire to keep this one on its proper track~but it is hard, even for me.

It was the priesthood of Melchizedek that Abraham followed, not the Levitical law.

It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.

It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.

Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.

I think at that time, it was the normal belief that God only speaks to certain people and THEY tell you what God says. As the people told Moses " Do not let God speak to us lest we die. "But the God Abraham believed in was different. This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says. "The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it."

Although there is little to be said about Abraham in the Bible, it is apparent that the Ten Commandments were known. These all fall under the category of loving your neighbor as yourself- the Law of reciprocity.

Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.

Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the garce of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel, which is not another, for there's only one taught in the holy scriptures that exalts one man, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The comparison of Melchizedek and Jesus Christ is a wonderful subject but is not part of this discussion. Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy. Yet we can discuss this in a separate thread. if someone desires to start one.

This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says.

Two things: All men are not on the same intelligent levels~above that.....coming to a true biblical knowledge of God, is a gift form heaven, it does not come through the will of the flesh or the will of man having some special powers/gifts whereby they can reveal God to a person~it come through divine revelation from the Spirit of God!

Ephesians 1:17-20~"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

One more:

Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Maybe one more:

Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Many consider Melchizedek to be a "theophany" or "christophany."  That means that He was the pre-incarnate Messiah who appeared to Abe.

Many do... but it appears to be based on a bad reading of Hebrews.

Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the grace of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness.

You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying.  Can you re-write that sentence using only words in the vernacular?  Just pretend I'm a small child as you explain.

Otherwise, it looks like you're saying Abraham had no faith, which obviously isn't right, and can't be the point, so I'm misunderstanding.

Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy.

I agree.  That's some bad theology.

Jarrod

I've seen you come back to the Golden Rule several times, and each time, I want to add the other commandment which stands beside it in the New Testament:

Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart

Between the two, we have the whole Law and Prophets.

From bel: true. But I suppose if you do not love your neighbor as yourself, you wouldn't be loving God either.

James 2:22-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that that faith was working together with his works, and by works (Abraham's) faith was made perfect?

James 2:23~"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

Abraham’s trust in God’s promise secured a preliminary declaration of his righteousness (Genesis 15:6). God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness was confirmed by his actions on Moriah (Genesis 22:12). Abraham was called the friend of God as a result of his faithful actions (2nd Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8). Please remember Abraham was a just and righteous man,  living by faith, long before he got to Genesis 15:6~people seem to conveniently overlook this truth...... It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.

James 2:24~"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

What can we see from Abraham’s history? The real evidence proving righteousness requires works. What we see is that Genesis 15:6 is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without Gen 22:12! Those who cry, “Sola Fide,” and think that Genesis 15:6 is the end of justification are wrong. Abraham’s subjective justification by faith was made complete or perfect by his further works. Justification is being declared righteous by God: Abraham was declared so by faith and works. It is vain confidence to trust in some belief, decision, or profession of Jesus without good works. Abraham’s actual justification, or acceptance and acquittal with God, was by Christ! James did not teach justification by the works that Paul condemned, or the Bible lies (2nd Peter 1:20). Paul rejected Jewish legalists and their trust in Moses’ law by teaching the historical fact of God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness by virtue of his great act of faith (Genesis 15:6). James taught that any man’s faith without works was not nearly, justification, or the hope of future glorification.

4WD, keep going just a couple verses later from Romans 5:1-2 with its “being justified by faith” to Romans 5:9.  “Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY *HIS BLOOD*, we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH *HIM*” (not through us).

Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness, true, but that is not a statement saying that it MADE him righteous to begin with.