Author Topic: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?  (Read 5524 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #70 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:25:04 »
It must be either, OR~ man's faith cannot be what make us RIGHTEOUS, and still the Lord being OUR righteousness! I'll go Paul and Jeremiah.
Of course man's faith cannot be what makes us righteous.  That is not what is being said.  First off, we are not made righteous. Even God does not do that.  When God forgives the sins of someone, those sins did not disappear; those sins did not cease to exist.  But in the forgiveness of sins, God has declared one to be righteous. We are declared to be righteous.  Only God, as judge, can do that.  The question is who are they whom God declares to be righteous.  It is they who believe in God. 

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:5  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Faith in God, in Abraham's case, was the deciding factor.  Because Abraham believed God, God declared him to be righteous.  In our case it is our faith in God, in Jesus Christ is the deciding factor. 

That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in Him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord (Rom 4:22-24),

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #70 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:25:04 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #71 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:32:25 »
Red, God provides the gift, we accept that gift we cannot earn by OUR faith. Yes the gift is possible because of Christ’s faithfulness, but our response in faith IS required. Not a work earning any part of the still free gift.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 09:37:55 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #72 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:47:14 »
There's too much jargon.  Everyone uses words like "faith" and "justification," and nobody even agrees on the what these words mean.
::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #72 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:47:14 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #73 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 08:25:17 »
Quote
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 18:08:55

 
Quote
   There's too much jargon.  Everyone uses words like "faith" and "justification," and nobody even agrees on the what these words mean.

::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1
Then maybe we should define the two.

I think 4WD did a good job defining justification do you agree with that definition?

So how are we to define faith so that we are all on the same page??

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #73 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 08:25:17 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #74 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 09:42:51 »
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other. 

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #74 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 09:42:51 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #75 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:21:10 »
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen;" How does the Messiah (who lives outside of time) have faith?  He sees all things and knows all things (divine omniscience). 

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #75 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:21:10 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #76 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:37:33 »
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
But the definition of faith is a problem.  There are those who think that faith is something that is given to you almost out of the blue.  It is akin to what some believe about being born again.  They believe that faith is something that happens to you, that it is a gift from God.  IT IS NOT.  Faith in God, believing IN God, is believing God coupled with trusting God.  It is developed like all other beliefs.  For some of us, who were born into Christian homes with believing parents, that development comes quite easily, maybe sometimes too easily.  For others it comes not so easily; for some it takes a good bit of studying of God's word.  And for some it can take a long time.  Paul said it well;  Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. /b]

« Last Edit: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:39:40 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #77 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:43:32 »
If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen;" How does the Messiah (who lives outside of time) have faith?  He sees all things and knows all things (divine omniscience).
As a man, He did not live outside of time.  But nevertheless, it was not faith that He had in God; rather it was absolute knowledge of all things God.  He did not simply believe that He was the Son of God; He knew absolutely that He was the Son of God.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #78 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:12:55 »
I agree 4WD, salvation is the gift. Faith comes from hearing or reading the Word of God. Romans 10:17. Yes this aspect IS the main bone of contention among Christians.

Also 4WD an excellent point aboit Christ in the previous post right above this one.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:17:22 by Jaime »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #78 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:12:55 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #79 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:37:01 »
As a man, He did not live outside of time.  But nevertheless, it was not faith that He had in God; rather it was absolute knowledge of all things God.  He did not simply believe that He was the Son of God; He knew absolutely that He was the Son of God.
And absolute knowledge is NOT faith.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #80 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 00:47:03 »
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.

Yes, I agree. There are many different faiths, and according to each of these faiths God says this or God says that. To me, the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith. Abraham's faith = Jesus' faith, Abraham being the father of Jesus' faith. The Levitical law was not Abraham's faith because it didn't even exist at that time. Likewise, there are different definitions of righteousness depending on which faith you believe in.

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #81 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 03:58:44 »
To me, the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith. Abraham's faith = Jesus' faith, Abraham being the father of Jesus' faith.
Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs~I've been studying the scriptures for many years and reading behind hundreds of writers, if not thousands and your statement here is a first.
Quote from: Bel on: Today at 00:47:03
the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith
Yes, and it is Jesus Christ's faith that he had as the Son OF MAN. He is the only man that lived in a body of flesh, that condemned sin in the body in which he lived in, which was~in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet he being free of sin in his flesh, because the was conceived by the power of the Highest~the Everlasting God, who is eternal both ways.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:1-4~"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Abraham was not the father of Jesus' faith~God was the Father of Jesus' faith~which is ( not was, but IS in a continuous state of BEING~John 1:18 ) in the bosom of the Father~they are one in their Divinity. Abraham came from Adam~therefore, conceived with a sinful nature from Adam.  This is why the virgin conception and birth of Jesus Christ is essential~making Jesus the second Adam for the first Adam was earthly and when left to himself and the power of his own will SINNED~the second Adam was the Lord from heaven, when left to himself condemned sin in the flesh and was victorious over the flesh, the Devil, death, and the grave. This he did AS A MAN by faith in the God of the holy scriptures~since he did not live his life as a private person but as a representative of an elect body, he being the Head thereof~and what he did, it was as though THEY DID THE SAME in the eyes of the Judge of all and his holy law.
Quote
Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
It is Christ's faith that is accounted for his elect as THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Our acts of faith is accounted unto us as proof that we are of the seed of Jesus Christ. We shall consider Abraham's faith more in detail to prove this. For now, let me give a perfect example how our faith is accounted unto us as righteousness~not legally, but practically. Above I said:
Quote from: RB in OP
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!
It is recorded here concerning Phinehas ZEAL:
Quote from: Moses
Numbers 25:6-13~"And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel."
Concerning this act of zeal for the God of Israel, David said these words:
Quote from: David, the prophet of God
Psalms 106:30,31~"Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
The exact same phrase used in describing Abraham's faith~here, is Phinehas' ZEAL. BOTH prove that they were righteous by their godly acts of faith/righteousness, etc.  Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous, it PROVED that he was righteous! 

 
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 04:04:36 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #82 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 05:09:35 »
There is only one kind of faith that is biblical.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Our Lord knew all things (being God) so He had not hope nor did He not see things.  Knowledge transcends both hope and faith.

Faith is obtained only ONE WAY:

Romans 10:17 NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word [rhema = spoken word]of God.

Faith ONLY can come from hearing the voice of God. Did our Lord Hear the Father? Of course. But did that produce "assurance of things hoped for" or "conviction of things not seen?"  No since He did not need to hope and could see all.

IOW "faith of Christ" is a poor translation.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #83 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 05:50:20 »
Sorry for the way I speak . I don’t get you all the time as well.

But I still Desire to seek and like RB said, I’m working it out in my mind. With Godly teachers on this board. I respect you all. I truly do.

Tell me this .

Saul had faith , enough faith to go after  the Christians and do bad things to them

Was this Gods faith he had,  or a religious faith. Was it his faith ?

Was his faith in religion , and would that , and his faith be enough to save him?

No

It was only when he was in the name of Jesus Christ . A big ball of light that he was blinded so he could see. He now heard the spoken word of the Lord . Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord. Strange because he knew the word inside and out. Didn’t he . The Blind shall see , the deaf shall hear

He then believed in Christ . Before, he was persecuting him, by going after his body.

Sauls Faith nor a religious faith could not  save Saul . The faith of Jesus Christ did. He is faith. He is faithful.

When the Lord passed before Moses , the faithfulness of God did. God is faith

Muslims are seeing God in visions and receiving him . Not a alter call from earth but from heaven.

What faith saves us ....the Lords . If not it was a good word and we had great sing songs. I clap my hands and cheer on. But then Times get tough and then I leave church.

A believer may leave church but will never leave Him

It’s a relationship with him that keeps us, so when out world gets turned upside down, and our faith dwindles. We go ... but I know him. You can forget about church and people , but not him.

I have been in the pit of hell with life ....then he shows me in the spirit, I am  sitting on top of his shoulders.

I have had no faith at times , and that’s after even experiencing amazing encounters with him , when life was mean to me. Then he said I will move this mountain for you. He did it within a day.

He is faithful even when I am not.

If we have faith ..that faith was only ever given to us by God.we love him because he first loved us.

 How do we grow that faith that was given to us . A measure of faith . His seed in us , maybe a mustard seed .

 It’s By relationship by word and Spirit

Sorry if it a jumble . You know be by now :)



« Last Edit: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 06:18:15 by Bemark »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #84 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 07:31:22 »
I should begin this with the same phrase that you started your reply to bel, i.e.,
Quote from: RB link=topic=106914.msg1055171114#msg1055171114 date=1600160324
"Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs....."
But I will just leave it as a quote from you and let it fall where it will.
The exact same phrase used in describing Abraham's faith~here, is Phinehas' ZEAL. BOTH prove that they were righteous by their godly acts of faith/righteousness, etc.  Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous, it PROVED that he was righteous!
You are correct that Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous.  Nor did it prove that he was righteous.  It is an act of God. Phinehas' act of killing those evil folks was credited to him as righteousness.  The righteousness of God can never be acquired; and it existed in only one man, namely Jesus Christ the Son of God; it can only be imputed; and that only by God Himself. It does not mean, with respect to Abraham, to Phinehas or to anyone that are or become righteous as God is righteous.

As applied to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 or Romans 4:3 or to (KJV) "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly"(Rom 4:5), it means neither that they are righteous or become righteous. Theoretically one may satisfy the law's commandments through perfect obedience and thereby actually be treated by God on the basis of one's own personal righteousness, but Paul declares the truth that such doesn't happen ever.  That is why God must credit or impute something else to sinners as the righteousness by which they are saved.  And as Paul declares in (KJV) Romans 4:5 "to him that believeth his faith is counted [credited, reckoned, imputed] for righteousness".  That is further reinforced in verse 11 "to all who believe...that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 07:37:34 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #85 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 07:53:17 »
Derek Prince (of blessed memory) used to define "righteousness" as "in right relationship."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #86 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 08:30:13 »
Righteousness [GR - dikaiosune]  is the character or quality of being right and/or just.  A person may be considered righteous on his own if he is truly right and/or just.  But that is an imperfect righteousness.  God on the other hand has the character or quality of being perfectly right and just.  The imperfect righteousness of a man is insufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  It is only through the perfect righteousness imputed to a man by God that is sufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  That perfect righteousness is imputed to, credited to, reckoned to, accounted to the one who believes in God. 

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #87 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 11:17:12 »
Righteousness [GR - dikaiosune]  is the character or quality of being right and/or just.  A person may be considered righteous on his own if he is truly right and/or just.  But that is an imperfect righteousness.  God on the other hand has the character or quality of being perfectly right and just.  The imperfect righteousness of a man is insufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  It is only through the perfect righteousness imputed to a man by God that is sufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  That perfect righteousness is imputed to, credited to, reckoned to, accounted to the one who believes in God.
That is WAY too western for biblical definitions.  Even though the NT may have been written in Greek, the underlying thought is Hebraic and eastern.

Please use a relational instead of abstract definition.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #88 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 11:30:55 »
That is WAY too western for biblical definitions.  Even though the NT may have been written in Greek, the underlying thought is Hebraic and eastern.

Please use a relational instead of abstract definition.
B S

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #89 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 15:18:07 »
Sorry for the way I speak . ........................Sorry if it a jumble . You know be by now :)
Mark, you opened up your heart to us and showed us your childlike faith, and it brought joy to my heart~THANK YOU! Mark, the body of Christ NEEDS children of faith like you to encourage us and strengthen us. The mouth cannot say to the least member, I have no need of you~because as soon as you are not around we SEE and KNOW how important you are. May the Lord who is gracious above all, be so to you and fill you with joy, peace, and comfort in knowing him~the Lord Jesus bless you, my dear brother~Your brother and friend, RB.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #90 on: Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 16:09:43 »
I love you my brother and friend and all my brothers and sisters on this board. Have a great day . May his face shine upon us and our families and give us peace.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #91 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 00:44:38 »
Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs~I've been studying the scriptures for many years and reading behind hundreds of writers, if not thousands and your statement here is a first.

Well then, you might want to consider it.

"Abraham is the father of all who believe." Jesus believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was Abraham's "seed". Abraham was the father of Jesus' faith and what we call the Christian faith today. It is faith in a particular God and His word.
Jesus Himself refers to  Father Abraham in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Bemark: You made a good point in saying that Saul had faith but it did not save him. Maybe Saul did not put his faith in the right place.


4WD: You mentioned that our imperfect righteousness is insufficient to gain forgiveness of sins from God, yet we are told that if we forgive then we will be forgiven. God does not expect us to be perfect as He is perfect. Man demands perfection. We are not God, therefore we do not know all things. I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know. " Love your neighbor as yourself." This is what God expects.

 
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 01:01:05 by bel »

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #92 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 02:44:30 »
Then maybe we should define the two.
There's some value in that.  But let me float a crazy idea out there...

What if... instead of adding a layer of obfuscation by defining special words and arguing over their meanings...

What if we just use used words that are already part of today's vernacular?

::peeking::

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #93 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 03:07:36 »
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
I think it is. 

When you say faith, are you talking about believing there is a God?  Even the demons do that... they even believe in the one, true God... for all the good that will do them.

Do you mean believing God, in the sense of accepting what it says in the Bible?  (If so, whose interpretation?)

Do you mean believing God, in the sense that we walk around dialoguing with Him all the time, and receiving directions He beams straight into our brains?  That seems to be what happened for Abraham, but then there are plenty of churches who would call that crazy-town... and more than a few cults who wouldn't.

Or maybe when you say faith, you are talking about adhering to a set of standards.  If you say 'Jesus faith' are you referring to His keeping the whole Law?  More than the Law, perhaps?  (But Paul seems to call this bondage, in opposition to faith...)

Or perhaps its mostly a matter of belonging to the group?  Those-who-have-faith is certainly a group that the Bible talks about, and there IS an emphasis on the assembling of the membership of the church into one corporate body.

You might even mean more than one of these things, in different contexts.

A little disambiguation would be nice.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #94 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:12:41 »
When I say faith I don’t mean just believing something or someone exists. Even the Demons believe in Christ, but as someone else has said, it involves TRUST in that person, in this context Jesus Christ. I believe Satan exists, but I wouldn’t say I have faith in Satan. It seems the discussion we ought to have is FAITH VS FAITHFULNESS. Both nouns, but not necessarily synonyms.

What words in our present vernacular would you prefer in lieu of what is being used by some? Even with words like trust, some defining might need to be done. Faith is a word with a particular meaning. Not sure if most words don’t fall in that category even thise in the “modern” vernacular. Also, Modern vernacular can vary from the extremes of post 65 yr old West Texan to 30 something urban dweller from the Northeast.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 14:18:15 by Jaime »

Offline RB

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #95 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:36:21 »
I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know.
Knowledge is not perfection~actually having knowledge is a great source of PRIDE, more than making us Christ-like.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 8:2,3~Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Does not mean all who have knowledge are puffed up, but it IS the source of pride if unguarded and ruled.
Quote from:  bel on: Today at 00:44:38
I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know.
How about they're born after your sinful nature, and left to themselves without the word of God restraining them, WOULD grow into little demons after their true father, the Devil himself!
Quote from: bel on: Today at 00:44:38
"Abraham is the father of all who believe." Jesus believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was Abraham's "seed". Abraham was the father of Jesus' faith and what we call the Christian faith today. It is faith in a particular God and His word. Jesus Himself refers to  Father Abraham in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
The seed was CHRIST the HEAD of the elect body~Ahraham was part of that elect body ~the SYSTEM under which God made known to His elect the promises of his grace to them through Christ IS FAITH~in this sense is Abraham the father of the children of FAITH~the SYSTEM under which the just live by for them to know they are God's children and know that it is by Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness that SECURED their right to be called the children of God~he is the SURETY of each and every child of promise~ a child of God's oath to him for his redemption work of fulling the demands of the law of God and suffering the penalty of that law for THEM in his death~the just for the unjust.

Faith in Romans four and Galatians three is referring to the SYSTEM of FAITH by which God's elect comes to know of the great salvation that they have IN CHRIST~knowing that is it an act of pure grace without the deeds of the law, secured by two immutable acts of God to his Son Jesus Christ: his holy oath and promises to HIS SEED~Jesus being the elect HEAD and we the members of his elect body. Abraham being chosen to be the EXAMPLE of all of the true seed using HIS FAITH at different times in his life PROVING that he was indeed a friend of God part of the holy seed by his acts of faith beginning with him leaving his homeland seeking a CITY that hath foundations whose builder and maker was God~using the land of Cannan as an example of that promised land which was the indeed the world to come~regardless where Abraham was standing at ANY given time and looking....AS FAR as he could see one day at THAT DAY it would be HIS and the children of God promised to Christ!
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:45:41 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #97 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:53:57 »
I do think the Hebrew thought or Eastern thinking contributed to their blindness about Christ that Paul described in Romans 11. And God knew and used this for his purposes.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #98 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:54:03 »
I love you my brother and friend and all my brothers and sisters on this board. Have a great day . May his face shine upon us and our families and give us peace.
Mark, the greatest of ALL gifts is CHARITY~ones who have charity ruling their spirit is the most powerful saints living in this world and the most beneficial gift to the body of Christ and it seems you are filled with charity~ use it for God's glory toward his children and all men if possible. 

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #99 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 13:41:49 »
What words in our present vernacular would you prefer in lieu of what is being used by some? Even with words like trust, some defining might need to be done.
Trust is solid for some situations.  Rely would work in the same way.  Using a single word for wholesale substitution won't work.  You'd have to play it by ear and choose words on a case-by-case basis to make your meaning clear.

Also, Modern vernacular can cary from the extremes of oost 65 yr old West Texan to 30 something urban dweller from the Northeast.
I'm pretty sure that the gap between Texas and Oregon is smaller than the gap between Texas and 17th century England.  ::smile::  Maybe not in the Politics forum...  rofl

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #100 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 14:25:35 »
Of course when the Bible uses faith, it is a translation from the original language. Whatever the original language tagged thenword’s meaning via contect of course, IS the meaning of the word. We English speakers shouldn’t limit oir interpretation to just the breadth of the English language. We translate three Greek words as love, so the intended “flavor” of the word is important. Jesus asked Peter two different questions, do you phileo and do you agape me? In English it looks like a very redundant dialogue.

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #101 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 15:43:26 »
Quote
We translate three Greek words as love,
Actually it is 4:

Agape
Phileo
Eros
Storge

And in Hebrew:

Ahavah
Dod
chashak

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #102 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:05:55 »
I do think the Hebrew thought or Eastern thinking contributed to their blindness about Christ that Paul described in Romans 11. And God knew and used this for his purposes.
Definitely not.  The blindness was willful. 

They had all the tools to understand, and DID understand, but rejected the truth because... well, the Bible says because they loved a lie, so let's go with that.

Jarrod

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #103 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:20:22 »
They missed the truth obviously. I would say the blindnness had a lot to do with it, and for a purpose. Some reason God knew that the Gentiles making them jealous would do the trick some day. Romans 11:8-11. I say, let’s go with Paul’s explanation. God gave them a spirit of stupor and blindness even to this day.

They believed in a Messiah, but missed that Jesus was the one. I believe stiff necked and partially blinded.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:31:39 by Jaime »

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Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
« Reply #104 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:58:06 »
I think it's more rejected than missed.

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  Matt 13:15