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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: RB on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 05:16:40

Title: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 05:16:40
This thread is broken off from here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/why-paul/35/ so we would not hijack e.r.m.'s thread, and also because of the importance of this subject.
Quote from: johntwayne Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
Boy, you sure are steeped in that Calvinism. It is not Christ's faith that is put down to our account it is our faith. Faith is not the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, 9, salvation is the gift.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
(Rom 4:5)

Note it is "his" faith, not Christ's faith that is accounted as righteousness.
I have already address
Quote from: johntwayne #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
Boy, you sure are steeped in that Calvinism. It is not Christ's faith that is put down to our account it is our faith. Faith is not the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8, 9, salvation is the gift.
Here:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/why-paul/35/ Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 05:00:59

So let us consider this statement:
Quote from: johntwayne Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 09:16:05
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, (Rom 4:5) Note it is "his" faith, not Christ's faith that is accounted as righteousness.
Before the Judge of all whose law demands perfection in thoughts, words, and deeds it is impossible that our faith is the means of our legal justification before the law of God~God cannot remain Just if he justifies sinners~ the only manner in which he can justify a sinner is if a PERFECT payment is made to satisfy His law that has been transgressed. No man is capable of offering such a payment~ even Adam in the state of being created RIGHTEOUS and after God's image with a nature FREE of being at enmity against God could not yield such obedience without God's BEING that righteousness for him! It is very clear that it is NOT our faith that is accounted as righteousness before God Law but Christ's, for it is written:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:29-31~"That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
If it is true, and it IS, that God made unto us Christ to be OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, then our faith is not that righteousness~that should be simple to understand.

Let us consider the scriptures where it is said that our faith is accounted for righteousness and see how we should rightly divide the scriptures to understand that phrase.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Here Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, "even as", means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen.

Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if you grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism those who think that their works, including faith, the most important of all is the means of them being righteous before God.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6).

For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting works of the Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Geesisn 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians hold conditional justification~faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification~ faith is the instrument receiving righteousness. We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (CONSIDER AND PONDER: Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! I do not think anyone wants to go there!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of hell (Genesis 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?  No Arminian can give a biblical answer to those questions.

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7).

God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!   
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 06:14:04
Quote
1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (KJV)
29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2Co 5:18-21 — And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 07:35:29
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The text says NO SUCH THING!!

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom_4:9  Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Gal_3:6  So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."


There is absolutely nothing in any of those verses that speak of evidence.  All are very straightforward in what is said and what is meant.  In each and every instance the clear meaning is that it was Abraham's faith in God that was reckoned, counted, credited to him as [for] righteousness.  Abraham believed God, believed in God, had faith in God and based upon that faith God declared Abraham to be righteous.

There is no amount of twisting and distorting of any of those verses for which it could be argued that Abraham's faith was reckoned as evidence of anything. 

Quote from: RB
The difference is significant~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
You speak of legal justification as if there is any other kind of justification.  There is not legal or illegal or unlegal justification.  Justification is a legal term. I have taken much of the following from my favorite theologian, Dr. Jack Cottrell:

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state). Our main concern here is the act.  We can rightly hold that Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does. It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. 

Justification has a distinct meaning. What is this meaning? A brief look at some Greek terminology will put us on the proper track. The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness. The problem is to identify the proper connection between them. In Christian theology since the Reformation there have been two main competing views of the meaning of justification as it relates to righteousness. One is that justification means that God declares us righteous by imputing righteousness to us; the other is that justification means that God makes us righteous by imparting righteousness to us.

Most Protestants believe that God actually does both of these things; the issue is, which is the proper definition of justification? In the latter view “imparted righteousness” is the personal obedience and good works God enables us to perform by the power of his grace working in us; it is the right moral character character we are enabled to attain by this power. Justification as God’s act is thus his ongoing process of making us more and more righteous or holy. To Protestants this process is actually sanctification, not justification; but in classic Roman Catholic theology this is how justification itself is understood.  In Catholic doctrine “faith justifies, not by uniting the sinner to Christ, and making him a partaker of Christ’s righteousness,—but by ‘working’ in him, and ‘sanctifying’ him.” In this view faith justifies by producing within the believer “a real inherent righteousness, which is, on its own account, acceptable to God, and which constitutes the immediate ground of his acceptance;—in short, by making him righteous, subjectively”. The official conclusion of the Catholic Church’s authoritative Council of Trent (1545–1563) was that justification “is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of grace and gifts whereby the unjust man becomes just”. The formal cause of this justification “is the justice of God . . . by which he makes us just [i.e., righteous], . . . and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us” .

According to this view justification is a subjective process that takes place within the individual, an inward change in one’s moral character. This means that justification is tied to one’s works in a direct way, and because it is a process, one can never be certain that he has reached a level of works that makes him acceptable to God. Herein lies one of the major differences between classic Roman Catholicism and Reformation Protestantism.

To most Protestants this view of justification is seriously wrong and is a major stumbling block to a proper overall understanding of salvation and to a Christian life of peace and assurance. We understand God’s act of justification to be not the impartation of righteousness, but the imputation of righteousness. “To justify” means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous, to count or reckon or accept as righteous. The state of justification is not an ever-increasing holiness of character, but a complete right legal standing before the law of God and a freedom from the law’s penalty.

That justification means to declare righteous rather than to make righteous is seen in the use of the verb dikaioo in Luke 7:29, which says literally that the people who heard Jesus’ teaching about John the Baptist “justified God” (KJV). Obviously this cannot mean that the people made God righteous; they were simply declaring or acknowledging him to be righteous. Thus the NASB translates this as “They acknowledged God’s justice,” and the NIV says they “acknowledged that God’s way was right.” Likewise when God justifies us he is not making us righteous but is declaring us so.

That this is the proper meaning of the concept is also seen in the fact that in Scripture justification is basically a legal (judicial, forensic) concept. That is, in the Bible it is a judge’s verdict or finding after he has considered the evidence and found a person to be innocent. “To justify” is always the opposite of “to condemn.” For example, Deuteronomy 25:1 says that when men go to court, “the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.” Likewise Proverbs 17:15 condemns a corrupt judge “who justifies the wicked” and “condemns the righteous” (see Isa 5:23). This same contrast between justification and condemnation is seen in God’s own judicial verdict: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?” (Rom 8:33-34; see Matt 12:37). Obviously when a judge condemns someone he does not thereby make that person guilty; he only discovers and declares him to be so. Likewise when a judge justifies someone he does not thereby make that person innocent or righteous; he simply declares him to be so.

There is a major difference between justification as an act of a human judge and justification as a saving act of God. Human judges, unless they are corrupt (Prov 17:15), justify only the innocent; they declare someone righteous only if he is indeed already righteous or innocent. This is what the law requires. But in the act of salvation God justifies guilty sinners (Rom 4:5); he declares the unrighteous to be righteous! How can God go against the standards of his own law (Deut 25:1) and do the very thing that he himself has forbidden in Proverbs 17:15? When God justifies us, he is declaring that, even though we are sinners, we are now “square” with the law. How can this be since we as sinners have broken the commands of the law? First we must remember that the way of salvation is grace, not law; and the principles by which grace operates are the very opposite of law, as we saw in the previous chapter. But this is not the whole story.

In order to understand precisely what is happening in justification, we must remember that law consists not only of commands but also of penalties. There is no longer any way that a sinner can be right with the law (i.e., justified) in reference to its commands, since we are guilty of breaking them. When God justifies us, he is not declaring that we are innocent and have never broken the law’s commands. Rather, justification is God’s declaration that we are right with the law in reference to its penalty. It means that God treats us not as if we are innocent, because we are not; rather, it means that he treats us as if our penalty has already been paid—which it has! The best way for a Christian to understand what it means to be justified is to picture himself as a defendant standing in a courtroom before God as the presiding Judge, and to hear God pronounce his verdict: “No penalty for you!” Many will say that God’s judicial declaration is “Not guilty!” but that is not so. Justification does not remove our guilt, but it deals with it by removing the condemnation that goes with it (Rom 8:1).

Thus the Judge’s precise declaration is “No penalty for you!” To be justified thus does not mean that God treats me just as if I’d never sinned, but rather just as if I’d already paid my penalty. remission of sins, and the washing away of sins (in the sense that God removes them from the books and does not hold them against us). This becomes clear as we follow Paul’s line of thought from Romans 3:27 through Romans 4:8.  After asserting the fact of and using the language of justification throughout this passage, Paul proves his point by citing Psalms 32:1-2, “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD will not take into account.” This shows that justification and forgiveness are one and the same. God justifies sinners by forgiving them, by not holding their sins against them.

It is important to see that justification is thus not a change in our character or in our inner nature; it is a change in our relationship to God and especially to God’s law. The change is objective, not subjective. It solves the problem of guilt, not the problem of corruption. It is also important to see that this change is not a gradual process, but is an immediate and complete change in our status before God. By God’s pronouncement, at a specific, instantaneous moment we are changed from being 0% unforgiven to being 100% forgiven before God. The abiding state of justification begins in that instant and continues in its fullness (100%) for as long as we remain in union with Christ. Justification is not just the forgiveness of individual sins, but the forgiveness of the entire person.

Now all of that dealt with the theological meaning, the definition, of justification of the sinner by God.  You can find most of this in the book The Faith Once For All, by Jack Cottrell, published by College Press.  I highly recommend his book. 

It remains to determine the basis for that justification.  I will leave that for another time and I apologize for the length of this post, but I think, under the circumstances, it is important.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:24:52
Good post 4WD, well defined. He could not have said it any more clearly.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:42:11
What is faith . A substance . Its being in his kingdom. It’s not your faith but dwelling in his,  and in this you have faith to believe that you are saved . Outside of this good luck
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:45:45
How good can you ever be . A life time of struggles . How good is your faith ? I just believe . He is faithful when we are not . And we are not
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 08:53:19
This is the faith of Jesus Christ . I will never leave you nor forsake you. Do I live in unbelief or the faith of Jesus Christ? Do I live in his word . Do I enter his kingdom and believe it when my faith fails, when I fail?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:04:49
What is faith . A substance.
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:14:09
I agree with Yogi; very true words about justification clearly expressed above, 4WD.  I also was always told as a child growing up in Christian schools that justification could be remembered easily as “Just as if I had never sinned”.  Not quite the correct angle.  As more accurately described above, it’s “Just as if my penalty had been paid” instead.  And as you say, the question does remain as to the basis for that justification - just how that “covering” Paul spoke of is applied. 

Actually, that “covering” for sin is pictured most explicitly in Genesis, when God literally and physically made coats of skin to cover the naked bodies of the first couple after their sin of disobedience.  It never says Adam or Eve made these coats of skin for themselves.  GOD did the making of these coats and dressed the first couple Himself. 

This shows us that any covering we make for ourselves (just like the sewn fig leaves Adam and Eve tried to provide for themselves) is never sufficient to cover our sin.  GOD must do the work of justification, or it cannot be accepted by Him. 

“We know that God heareth not sinners.”  This being the case, God must FIRST justify the person by His own act, and then and ONLY THEN is He able to turn a hearing ear towards the justified individual who responds then in faith.  Human faith is just like the first drawn breath of a newborn child, demonstrating an already-existing life that was given to them by God that others can obviously see and recognize.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:18:12
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....
His faith IS the substance . It’s the kingdom . From his impartation form being WITH HIM we get the fruit of the spirit love joy peace etc . So we can do good works
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:23:11
You also have to understand that you also have to allow your faith to arise. You work with the faith of God


Or we say no to everything . You reject all
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:26:30
Go into the nations and preach the good word etc . You have to believe that God is with you on this because he said it. His faith your faith together .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:29:54
What comes first . The chicken or the egg.

It was and always will be the faith of God .

We love him because he first loved us .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: johntwayne on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:45:58
4WD covered it well.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:55:44
“We know that God heareth not sinners.”  This being the case, God must FIRST justify the person by His own act, and then and ONLY THEN is He able to turn a hearing ear towards the justified individual who responds then in faith.  Human faith is just like the first drawn breath of a newborn child, demonstrating an already-existing life that was given to them by God that others can obviously see and recognize.
That is not what God said about Abraham. It is said about Abraham "By faith....", i.e.,  it was because of his faith that he was justified.  There is no way to understand that Paul said or meant that Abraham believed God because God credited him with righteousness.

We do not believe in God because we have been regenerated; we are regenerated because we believe in God. If your view of this is correct, then God is terribly remiss in not regenerating everyone.  If the reason that those who hear do not believe is because God has not regenerated them, then it is God's fault  -- PERIOD.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 09:59:31
Please explain as long as we Matin in a relationship with God. Give me a example of time that one can be removed from the kingdom. Paul was like 14 years ? Moses ?

I really don’t believe a born again can deny Christ . It’s not possible
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:04:26
That is not what God said about Abraham. It is said about Abraham "By faith....", i.e.,  it was because of his faith that he was justified.  There is no way to understand that Paul said or meant that Abraham believed God because God credited him with righteousness.

We do not believe in God because we have been regenerated; we are regenerated because we believe in God. If your view of this is correct, then God is terribly remiss in not regenerating everyone.  If the reason that those who hear do not believe is because God has not regenerated them, then it is God's fault  -- PERIOD.
4wd can God speak really loud so every one can hear? And in hearing without deception accept him? Is God mean?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:08:40
Job encounters
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:17:38
So when the Lord reaches out his saving Hand  towards us . Is there a legal right. Did our parents pray for us. Does the Lord now have to Make his face shine upon us.  Interesting 

The spiritual realm is about rules and contracts. What did God say and who up holds his word ?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:29:15
Once you have figured it out you will make a claim to that what is yours in the spirit. Be blessed . You have to get this .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:31:37
Quote
I really don’t believe a born again can deny Christ . It’s not possible

2Pe 2:20-22 — For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:35:26
Bemark, OSAS is off topic to this thread if you want to pursue it you need to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:41:50
Ok brother yes the word is true. I struggle to understand how one can. But yes it is so. Points to u my dear brother in the lord for keeping me on track. I love you for looking after me .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 10:43:43
Yogi bear  :) thankyou
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:03:20
I believe once believing and also believing forever saved
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:08:50
Yogi what was the holy commandment delivered unto them? I haven’t a clue but interested
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 11:17:22
Maybe it should be if Father God has given Jesus us, then we can’t be lost . Would this be correct now? It’s got nothing to do with us but Gods selection.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 13:26:17
Does accepting the invitation to a free gift add anything to the price of the free gift? OF COURSE NOT.  Or doesnit imply in anyway that we save ourselves. WE DO NOT. Invitation songs are sung and altar calls are given for a reason.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 13:42:30
4WD, you speak as if somehow God is indebted to His own created world of humanity, and is answerable to their idea of fairness.  He’s not.  You’ve got it upside down.  God is not “terribly remiss” in not regenerating everyone who is in rebellion against Him.  The guilt lies at their feet, and God actually owes them nothing.  The miracle is that He offers grace to anyone at all.

Abraham’s faith was counted as a righteous act, but it was not what turned him from a sinner into a righteous individual.  That is presuming an extension of logic that goes beyond the language of the Romans 4:3 context.

We are told that God gave Abram the name of Abraham, speaking in the past tense as He said “I *HAVE* (already) MADE THEE the father of many nations.”  Abraham’s “Seed” was going to be not just righteous Isaac, but all from every nation who ever were born or who would eventually be born that would “walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham” (Rom. 4:12).

This would require God to “quicken the DEAD” (who, before God quickens them to life are not even remotely capable of displaying living, acceptable faith).   God had already determined who would exercise this response of faith by “calling those things which BE NOT” (in existence yet) “as though they were” (Rom. 4:17).   In other words, God was then announcing to Abraham that He had already identified a promised group of individuals, most yet to be born, who were identified as the “SEED” of Abraham.  No faith had been exercised yet by most of these, since the majority had not even been conceived in time yet as of God’s announcement to Abraham. 

And yet not a single one of that already-identified “seed”, in the process of time, would fail to exhibit that exercise of a living faith as their first acceptable act of righteousness.

You’re getting the cart before the horse, 4WD.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:14:18
4WD, you speak as if somehow God is indebted to His own created world of humanity, and is answerable to their idea of fairness.  He’s not.  You’ve got it upside down.  God is not “terribly remiss” in not regenerating everyone who is in rebellion against Him.  The guilt lies at their feet, and God actually owes them nothing.
No, God is not indebted to anyone but Himself; and in that He is indebted to speak truthfully, for that is who He is.  If the only reason that anyone is in rebellion against Him is that He did not or has not regenerated them, then He is at fault.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
The miracle is that He offers grace to anyone at all.
Well first of all, that He offers grace to anyone is not a miracle, at least in the biblical meaning of a miracle.  And second, He has not kept it a secret about to whom He offers grace.  And if you understood what you read about Abraham, you would know that.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections
Abraham’s faith was counted as a righteous act
And yet again, the Bible does not say that.  It doesn't say Abraham's faith was counted as a righteous act.  It says that Abraham's faith was credited to him, reckoned to him, counted to him as righteousness.  Moreover, Paul said "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness"(Rom 4:5 ). He further stated that it was David who said the same thing, namely, "the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Rom 4:6); and then he follows that with "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.  Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them" (Rom 4:7-8). Now if you do not see that as being declared righteous, as being justified, then you most definitely do not understand even what salvation is all about.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:19:58
You’re getting the cart before the horse, 4WD.
No 3 Res, I am not.  It is you and the rest of the Calvinists, the Reformed Theologians, the TULIP Baptists, and probably a few more who have the cart before the horse.  I think sometimes that none of you even have the horse harnessed and hitched to the cart.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 15:25:45
I see this has been a very busy thread today~that's a good thing. I trust everyone would be kind to Mark, he a good brother and is still trying to figure these things out. I will come in the morning and go over these again and answer some of them.

Johntwayne, please do not let 4WD do your work for you, I would love to see you post your understanding since it was you that called me out. Now, do not take me wrong, NO PROBLEM calling any man out, just you should able to prove them wrong. Do not follow 4WD, for he is following a person who is deeply deceived~ Jack Cottrell. I have read some of his weak, distorted arguments, a few times, even before he ever posted them here.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 16:05:47
Well, 4WD, I do know that Christ gave us the proper steps in the order of salvation in John 6:37 & 44.

After reproving the Jews who saw Him and the miracles He had done, but yet believed not, Jesus told them “All that the Father giveth me” (step #1) “shall come to me;” (step #2) “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”  This places the proper order of God “giving” the “seed” to Christ FIRST, who AFTER THAT would all without fail come to Jesus, who would never cast them out. 

Jesus further followed this by saying “that of all that the Father giveth me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”  Not one of the promised “seed” of faith ever falls between the cracks and is ever lost, but all the promised “seed” without exception come to Christ and eventually are bodily-raised in a resurrection to everlasting life.  And this applies to the majority of all humanity, not the minority.  That’s because salvation is compared to a wheat harvest - not a tares harvest, which typically do not form the majority of the crop harvested.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: johntwayne on Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 16:16:43
Why should I post RB. You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place, and 4WD is doing a good job.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 05:00:30
Why should I post RB. You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place, and 4WD is doing a good job.
You should want to post concerning this essential question of this thread.
Quote from: poor johntwayne
"You haven't answered the simple argument I put forth in the first place"
JohnT~I did if you would take off your blinders and lay aside your church's doctrine and consider only the word of God's teaching on this subject. "If" you feel that it has not been answered then prove it and not hide under 4WD's coattail for he's banking on Jack Cottrell being right more than on God's testimony. Not a safe place to hide~I rather make God my hiding place. The Wiseman said: "He who follows the blind will end up in the same ditch." 

Come on out and show me YOUR understanding, after all, you threw the first stone....and you missed, would you not like to at least hit me with just one stone?

I admire your desire to be a prayer warrior for all who ask for prayers, VERY COMMENDABLE, and I say this in all sincerity~ but would like to see YOU defend your strong stance against the doctrine of grace. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 05:10:08
Well, 4WD, I do know that Christ gave us the proper steps in the order of salvation in John 6:37 & 44.

After reproving the Jews who saw Him and the miracles He had done, but yet believed not, Jesus told them “All that the Father giveth me” (step #1) “shall come to me;” (step #2) “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”  This places the proper order of God “giving” the “seed” to Christ FIRST, who AFTER THAT would all without fail come to Jesus, who would never cast them out. 

Jesus further followed this by saying “that of all that the Father giveth me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”  Not one of the promised “seed” of faith ever falls between the cracks and is ever lost, but all the promised “seed” without exception come to Christ and eventually are bodily-raised in a resurrection to everlasting life. 
+1 manna for you my brother and for the ones above.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 16:05:47
And this applies to the majority of all humanity, not the minority.  That’s because salvation is compared to a wheat harvest - not a tares harvest, which typically do not form the majority of the crop harvested.
Interesting..... ::pondering:: Something to consider in light of others scriptures...but will ponder and consider as I read the scriptures~it's easy to miss truth if you have never considered it before~ONCE brought to our attention then it is our responsibility to search and see If it is so or not.  ::reading::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 05:49:58
Does accepting the invitation to a free gift add anything to the price of the free gift? OF COURSE NOT.  Or does it imply in any way that we save ourselves? WE DO NOT. Invitation songs are sung and altar calls are given for a reason.
Yes, but for the wrong reasons! Consider with me: THE BIBLE DOES NOT TELL US TO HAVE ONE...........................................We are Bible Christians, so we only do what the Bible expressly tells us to do. We do not have the right to do otherwise based on our sinful wisdom. We believe the Bible is the final revelation of God’s will (Psalms 119:128: Matthew 28:20). We believe the Bible is sufficient to prepare every man of God perfectly (2nd Timothy 3:16-17). We have been commanded to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered (Jude 1:3). Since we cannot find one in the Bible, then to be Bible Christians, we should not have one~we follow the Bible and Jesus Christ as our example in everything we do, even though we fall so short, but not purposely.   

CHRIST NEVER GAVE ONE~Some will say:  Jesus said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden” (Matthew 11:25-30). He did, right after explaining no one can know Him without divine revelation and that God has hid spiritual things from the wise and prudent among men! He did, calling on those already born again and alive spiritually, who were laboring with guilt for sin, to come to Him for rest, not for eternal life.

Some will say: Jesus said, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). He did, but this is not an invitation: this is a condemnation of their unbelief.
He did, but He also explained their hearts were so bad as to reject Scripture. He previously explained that anyone believing on Him is already saved (5:24). He already explained that regeneration to spiritual life is by His voice (5:25-29).

Some will say: Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:15-16). He did, but do you require baptism for salvation as well as faith? Jesus did here. He did, but the salvation can only be conversion or of having KNOWLEDGE of Jesus' religion. For faith and baptism are the evidences of regeneration, not conditions for it. For one that is baptized into Jesus Christ obviously has a greater understanding ( salvation ) than one believes without having been baptized.

Why did He preach in parables so that people would not be converted (Matthew 13:10-15)? Why did He not care of the Pharisees and their followers fell in a ditch (Matthew 15:12-14)? Why did He tell the Pharisees, “How can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:33). Why did He say, “No man can come unto me, except the Father draw him” (John 6:44)? Why did He tell the crowds discouraging things like costly sacrifice (Luke 14:25-35)? Why did He suggest to the twelve they might want to leave Him as well (John 6:67)?

THE APOSTLES NEVER GAVE ONE~On the day of Pentecost, it was the 3000 who were asking Peter what to do (Acts 2:37). The answer was repentance and baptism, too much for faith~only regeneration. And these men were pricked in their hearts, which proves a regenerated heart.

Some will say: Paul and Silas gave the jailor an invitation before he was saved (Acts 16:23-34). They did? He asked Paul and Silas privately; they did not invite him publicly. He didn’t know anything but a hopeless life and a worse future. He wasn’t born again by his faith; he was given hope and joy and assurance; for only God’s grace in regeneration could have caused him to beg them for help.

Why didn’t Paul and the others quote John 3:16 everywhere they went, as folks today do. If the love of God for all sinners is the greatest theme of the Bible, why is it never mentioned in the book of Acts, not even once? No, not even once!

Read Paul’s sermon to Greek philosophers and look for an invitation (Acts 17:22-34). So much more could be said. I will stop with this: ETERNAL LIFE IS AN UNCONDITIONAL GIFT~ There are many Bible proofs that eternal life is unconditional. Here are seven: (1) It is a pure gift of grace. (2) Man is unable to do anything pleasing to God in his state of death and depravity. (3.) The Bible denies man’s will or works to have anything to do with salvation. (4.) Faith and good works are the result of salvation, not the condition or means of it. (5.) The gospel was never designed to bring eternal life to anyone, but to reveal it. (6.) Jesus Christ saved all the elect by Himself without any human instrumentality. (7.) There are examples throughout the Bible of salvation without human conditions. This is the only doctrine of salvation that gives God and Christ all the glory.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 06:04:24
Red my point was that at least 95% of all churches have an “altar call” and/or an invitation song to allow for responses to the gospel message. There was no mention of restrooms in the scriptural meetings of Christians, does that make having them wrong? As in Acts 2, the gospel message is given and a response is had by the recipients of the message. The construct of that exchange is not critical, but the response of the hearers most certainly is. In other words is it important for us to live in houses with the same kind of roof that allowed the paralytic’s friends by THEIR faith to dig through the roof to lower him down to Jesus in the crowd OR is it important for us today to have their faith that Jesus could heal their friend?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 06:49:59
Well, 4WD, I do know that Christ gave us the proper steps in the order of salvation in John 6:37 & 44.

After reproving the Jews who saw Him and the miracles He had done, but yet believed not, Jesus told them “All that the Father giveth me” (step #1) “shall come to me;” (step #2) “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”  This places the proper order of God “giving” the “seed” to Christ FIRST, who AFTER THAT would all without fail come to Jesus, who would never cast them out. 

Jesus further followed this by saying “that of all that the Father giveth me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”  Not one of the promised “seed” of faith ever falls between the cracks and is ever lost, but all the promised “seed” without exception come to Christ and eventually are bodily-raised in a resurrection to everlasting life.  And this applies to the majority of all humanity, not the minority.  That’s because salvation is compared to a wheat harvest - not a tares harvest, which typically do not form the majority of the crop harvested.
I think that your concept of "seed" doesn't match of with Jesus' concept of seed in Luke 8 (see also Matt13; Mark 4) .  While Jesus will not cast out any that come to him, nothing in John 6:37 or John 6:44 says that anyone can't simply leave as illustrated in the parable of the sower.

This all gets back to the free will of man.  It is bad enough to think that man has no ability to choose before being regenerated and it is no better, and perhaps even worse, to think that he has no ability to choose after being regenerated.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 07:10:01
Red my point was that at least 95% of all churches have an “altar call” and/or an invitation song to allow for responses to the gospel message. There was no mention of restrooms in the scriptural meetings of Christians, does that make having them wrong? As in Acts 2, the gospel message is given and a response is had by the recipients of the message. The construct of that exchange is not critical, but the response of the hearers most certainly is. In other words is it important for us to live in houses with the same kind of roof that allowed the paralytic’s friends by THEIR faith to dig through the roof to lower him down to Jesus in the crowd OR is it important for us today to have their faith that Jesus could heal their friend?

Quote from: Acts 2:37-38 as presented by RB, 3 Res, and a few others
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, " Brothers, there is nothing for you to do. You have either been chosen or not and that is not up to you."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 07:18:04
CHRIST NEVER GAVE ONE~Some will say:  Jesus said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden” (Matthew 11:25-30).  He did, calling on those already born again and alive spiritually, who were laboring with guilt for sin, to come to Him for rest, not for eternal life.
THE BIBLE DOES NOT TELL US THAT.

Please RB, show me an example in the whole of the NT where it describes one being born again or speaks of one it says has been born again. 

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 07:50:13
I think that your concept of "seed" doesn't match of with Jesus' concept of seed in Luke 8 (see also Matt13; Mark 4) .  While Jesus will not cast out any that come to him, nothing in John 6:37 or John 6:44 says that anyone can't simply leave as illustrated in the parable of the sower.

This all gets back to the free will of man.  It is bad enough to think that man has no ability to choose before being regenerated and it is no better, and perhaps even worse, to think that he has no ability to choose after being regenerated.


3 Resurrections~boy, did 4WD make this easy for you! I cannot believe he missed your understanding ( and the Spirit's ) of the seed! I'll wait and read your post back to him.  ::smile:: Be easy on him he's old~and can be temperamental ::smile:: ....but it is short-lived which is a good thing.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:49:59
after being regenerated
Now, who has said such a thing? Of course, afterward, he can.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 07:54:03
Quote
Some will say: Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:15-16). He did, but do you require baptism for salvation as well as faith? Jesus did here. He did, but the salvation can only be conversion or of having KNOWLEDGE of Jesus' religion. For faith and baptism are the evidences of regeneration, not conditions for it. For one that is baptized into Jesus Christ obviously has a greater understanding ( salvation ) than one believes without having been baptized.
Let us look at what this poster has posted and compare it to scriptural backing.

"Some will say: Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:15-16). He did, but do you require baptism for salvation as well as faith? Jesus did here" Yes this is true but not only here it is backed by other scripture. It is good to see that he acknowledge this but then he goes on to discredit the simple truth by trying to fit his doctrine in as seen in the following;

"He did, but the salvation can only be conversion or of having KNOWLEDGE of Jesus' religion. For faith and baptism are the evidences of regeneration, not conditions for it. " Lets be honest we never find this reasoning in scripture. It is pure spinning to make the scripture fit a preconceived opinion of a man with another doctrine not preached by the Apostles. 

In the verse itself it says that one must believe which in following the scripture teaching on belief and faith which is an interchangeable word meaning the same we know that it teaches we must come to faith through the word of God the gospel message. It is the gospel message that has the power unto salvation.

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We also know that with out fait it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The language there clearly say one must come to God with faith not that God gives them faith to come to him.

The scriptures teach just how one comes to faith.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The scripture are clear on the teaching of faith and most all of us agree with them but the next part of the verse is just as clearly spelled out as well if we let the scriptures speak.

Baptism is told why and what the purpose is in scripture if one would just do a topical study on it and let the scriptures speak

We have been over this many a time so I will not labor on it but just remind you the highlights and you can  search the scriptures for the true biblical meaning of baptism.

Let us remember that this started with John the baptist who God created just for this mission. You can read that in the first m3 chapters of Luke. He had a specific message from God which was baptism for the remission of sin.

Mark 1:1-4 (KJV)
1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

He was the fore runner for Christ

The baptism in Christ name is for the remission of sin as well as them imparting the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

If we are to be true to the scriptures we can not deny the clear teaching of what is taught baptism is for.

With that being said then ask yourself if the following words from this poster be true " For faith and baptism are the evidences of regeneration, not conditions for it. "?? I say no he clearly is misinforming you.

So lets be honest statements like "He did, but the salvation can only be conversion or of having KNOWLEDGE of Jesus' religion. " can only be a spin  to defend a false view.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 08:01:36
3 Resurrections~boy, did 4WD make this easy for you! I cannot believe he missed your understanding ( and the Spirit's ) of the seed! I'll wait and read your post back to him.  ::smile:: Be easy on him he's old~and can be temperamental ::smile:: ....but it is short-lived which is a good thing. Now, who has said such a thing? Of course, afterward, he can.
So afterward he can choose to believe or disbelieve!  I guess that I missed that in your posts here.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 08:55:23
So lets be honest statements like "He did, but the salvation can only be conversion or of having KNOWLEDGE of Jesus' religion. " can only be a spin  to defend a false view.
It has been over seven years ago that I handled this scripture as thoroughly as I possibly could have done, and now, no new revelation, still teaching Mark 16:16 the same way I did then. Go here and I will discuss this with you as long as you desire to do so. http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/one-of-the-most-controversial-scripture-in-all-of-the-nt~mark-1616/70/ 

Yogi, be happy to start a new thread on Mark 16:16~whatever you desire, just tell me and I'll be there, or I will start a baptism thread using Mark 16. Truly if one reads Mark 16 from the beginning, then Mark 16:16 becomes very clear as to what Christ was laboring to teach us.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 09:13:30
Red, it would do neither of us no good to go over the same material over and over for as you have said we have but I just had to point out to others that not all views follow the scriptural meaning as presented by some. We have presented our views over and over and got no where so we will let the viewers think for themselves.

What is clear is we both can not be right so hopefully our viewers can research it and find the fault between our view and determine for them selves whom is more correct and whom is way out in left field.

It has come time we stop talking for the scriptures and let the scriptures do the talking.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 09:43:31
Plus Red, if a response to the free gift of God’s grace was not needed, Jesus never would have issued the great commission. Preaching the message is all important, and the recipient’s response is critical as well. And NO his or her response only received the gift, he or she does not save themselves.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 12:39:31
One very simple question for you, 4WD:

Does the “seed” that forms the harvest ever plant itself in the ground?  No, scripture compares the redemption of the saints’ physical bodies, (as well as their spiritual redemption) to the harvest of a crop, with GOD being the “husbandman” (John 15:1) that first selects and then plants the seed of the intended crop, waters it and cultivates it using various means, (whether human or divine), and eventually does the harvesting when it is ripe.  The various “tares” growing along with the crop were planted by the “enemy” - not God; in other words, the devil who first introduced deception into the world of mankind (Matt. 13:37-40)

Speaking of the unbelieving Pharisees in His day, Christ said in Matt. 15:13 that “Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up.”  Again - those plants didn’t plant themselves.  The FATHER planted them.  And the plants called “tares” originally sown by the “enemy” - Satan’s deceptive work - are all eventually gathered and consumed by God’s fire when He gets rid of their polluting existence.

This faithful “seed” promised to Abraham was spoken of as a predetermined reality already, back in Genesis 17:5.  Because God used the PAST TENSE to tell faithful Abraham “I *HAVE MADE* thee the Father of many nations”.  The faithful “seed” as the children of promise would each be “quickened from the dead” eventually over the span of history’s millennia, and were already a done deal in God’s eyes, although most had not even been conceived before that promise was made.  Because God can “call those things which be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17).

4WD, if you don’t like the “seed” analogy that scripture employs, how about the saints being compared to “SHEEP”?  Again - sheep don’t hire their own shepherd, do they?

Christ told the unbelieving Jews just when the act of believing on Him arrived in the life of His “sheep”.  Even after seeing all the miracles which Jesus did, the cynical Jews in John 10:23 said “How long dost thou make us to doubt?  If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.”  NOTICE: THEY SHIFTED THE BLAME FOR THEIR DOUBT ONTO JESUS!!!  Blame-shifting has been a problem for sinful mankind ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden.  4WD, you have essentially done the same thing above when you accuse God of being “terribly remiss” for not regenerating all men.  Just sayin’.

Anyway, Jesus then told those cynical Jews who thought he had a devil, “YE BELIEVE NOT, *BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP*, as I said unto you.”  The very reason they didn’t believe Christ who had been proving His divinity to them all along with miracles was because they were ALREADY NOT IDENTIFIED AS SHEEP.  The cart follows the horse again.

Those who have ALREADY BEEN MADE INTO SHEEP will hear the shepherd’s voice when He summons them.  “My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life” (not a temporary fix) “and they shall NEVER PERISH,” (be destroyed out of existence eternally) “neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (John 10:26-28). That means neither the sheep themselves, nor an outside agent will ever be able to cancel their identity.

As II Tim. 2:19 puts it, “The foundation of the Lord standeth sure, having this seal; ‘The Lord knoweth them that are His’ .”  Jesus will “lose nothing” of those that the Father gave to Him (John 6:39).  Their faith may waver or weaken with changes in their circumstances,  but “If we are unfaithful, He faithful abides; He cannot deny Himself.” (II Tim. 2:13 - Int.).

Here is probably how you would alter the John 10:26-29 passage, 4WD, based on your expressed views.  “But ye believe not, because you goats are still making up your minds whether you want to identify as trans-species sheep or not.   You goats might decide you want to hear my voice and then turn yourself into sheep and follow me.  And only then I can respond to your decision by giving you eternal life, which you can decide to pitch overboard if you change your mind.  But you can never perish - that is, unless you decide that being a goat species was really a better deal after all.   Then I guess you’ll have to perish.  My Father is not greater than all, if you decide to override His power by jumping out of His hand.  But my Father and I definitely wouldn’t want to override your suicidal tendencies of free will if you really want to change your mind.” 

 ::doh::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 12:52:13
Here is probably how you would alter the John 10:26-29 passage, 4WD, based on your expressed views.  “But ye believe not, because you goats are still making up your minds whether you want to identify as trans-species sheep or not.   You goats might decide you want to hear my voice and then turn yourself into sheep and follow me.  And only then I can respond to your decision by giving you eternal life, which you can decide to pitch overboard if you change your mind.  But you can never perish - that is, unless you decide that being a goat species was really a better deal after all.   Then I guess you’ll have to perish.  My Father is not greater than all, if you decide to override His power by jumping out of His hand.  But my Father and I definitely wouldn’t want to override your suicidal tendencies of free will if you really want to change your mind.” 
It is not a case whether he would or not, his teachings clearly are saying this.  ::thumbup::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 13:23:28
3 resurrections, man has no more suicidal tendancies than the angels, 1/3 of who rebelled and turned from God. Man too has free will to go his own way. The entire Bible is a series of warnings to GOD’s PEOPLE to not fall away, to hold fast, and perservere to the end. If it were not possible, no need for so many warnings to not do just that. These warnings are NOT to the those outside of God, one cannot fall from where they have not been. Or at least those many admonitions of such would be extremely redundant.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 13:29:27
Plus Red, if a response to the free gift of God’s grace was not needed, Jesus never would have issued the great commission. Preaching the message is all important, and the recipient’s response is critical as well. And NO his or her response only received the gift, he or she does not save themselves.
Brother, the gospel IS the power of God to believers ONLY, to the lost and unregenerate it is pure foolishness, they will hate you and despise you for considering them so weak/simple-minded for believing in such things~they truly believe that religion is for folks who cannot think for themselves~who need some emotional support to lean on. I could prove this in many ways, let me just give you one example for now.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 1:8~"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;"
Paul's exhortation to EVEN Timothy PROVES much more than most men are willing to admit. His exhortation implies that, while in reality there is no just cause to be ashamed of the Gospel, there is in the gospel of Christ something which is not acceptable, and that it is generally hated and despised among men. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him. They run counter to his most fondly-cherished notions of independence; self-esteem; they abase in the dust all the pride of his self-reliance, and, stripping him of every ground of boasting and his own wisdom, and demanding implicit submission, they awaken all the enmity of the carnal mind. Even they who have tasted of the grace of God, are liable to experience, and often to yield to, the deeply-rooted and sinful feeling of being ashamed of the things of God. So prevalent is this even among Christians the most advanced, that Paul deemed it necessary to warn Timothy respecting it, whose faithfulness he so highly celebrates, by us. "Be not that therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord." In connection with this, he makes the same avowal for himself in Romans 1:16.

Said that to say this: The gospel is for God's elect who have been given eternal life and quicken to life by the Spirit~to be their source of information teaching them who they are and how they became who they are...basically the scriptures are SHEEP FOOD, and TO THEM is this word of salvation sent~they alone can hear Shepherd's voice speaking to them and they follow him. When I hear folks say that the word of God is impossible to understand, my thoughts generally are, I'm SURE it is to you, it is hard for little sheep but becomes easier for the Lambs! I'm sure that the outside world in the OT thought Israel were fools in offerings all those bloody sacrifices for their sins! I'm sure they wanted nothing to do with THAT RELIGION.

Brother ever been tempted to be ashamed of Christ and the word of God? Well, I KNOW you have and so has every child of God its works in our member because we KNOW what the proud sinners think of our faith and our Lord Jesus. MOST of the want US to stay away from them and keep that message for the weak-minded men who are not as wise as they are, etc.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 13:54:51
Red I have seen amazing turn arounds in BOTH directions with my own eyes. I have seen rebellious men turned by the gospel truth when they realize they need a savior. Their realization does not come independent of the Word. The Word of God is sharper than a two edged sword. They will not change out of the blue, but the Spirit IN the Word of God is powerful. Good soil may exist where we think impossible. And we know that faith comes from hearing the Word of God. I have seen older pillars of the church turn their back on God after 40 or more years of faithfulness.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 16:03:44
Jaime, I agree that angels and humans were both created with a freewill choice as originally created by God in innocent purity.  The “elect angels” were the 2/3 majority that were preserved from falling into rebellion, which was a suicidal choice for both angels and men.

But a fallen, sinful creature (whether human or angelic) operating with the knowledge of both good and evil and the choice of committing either action is just a potential disaster waiting to happen.  Free will is NOT all that and a bag of chips.  God has to step in, and He somehow uses the wrath of man to end up praising Himself, and restrains the remainder of their wrath so that they are not able to accomplish as many wicked purposes as they desire (Ps. 76:10).

It seems as if you are speaking of scripture’s texts about the saints “falling” as being an alteration in their justified stance before God.  It’s not.  Sheep do not turn into goats when they wander or rebel.  Proverbs 24:16 says “For a just man FALLETH SEVEN TIMES and riseth up again: but the wicked shall FALL INTO MISCHIEF.” 

This type of fall speaks of “stumbling” into mischief or misfortune - not of a saint losing their stance as an adopted child of God.  Even though a just man may make a complete fool of himself by errors of judgment or even sinful acts (represented by the number 7 which signifies a level of completeness), yet they are still identified as a “just man” as they rise up again after each episode of repentance or recovered circumstances after adversity. 

The wicked here are NOT said to “rise up again” in the same manner as the just man.  And as Jesus said in Matt. 15:14, the wicked Pharisees opposing Him He called “blind leaders” who were to be left alone to fall into the ditch. 

Another text with the similar message is Psalms 37:23.  “The steps of a good man are established by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.  THOUGH HE FALL, he shall not be UTTERLY CAST DOWN: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.”  Whether it is God promising temporal support or eternal security of the saints’ souls here in this context - both apply.  As Paul said, we may even be “cast down” as saints, but we are NOT DESTROYED UTTERLY (II Cor. 4:9).

You mentioned to Red your experience of seeing pillars of the church do an about-face in rejecting God after years of faithfulness.   That sounds reminiscent of Lot living in a cave after getting drunk and producing two sons incestuously by his daughters.  Though scripture identifies Lot as a “just” man and a “righteous soul” (II Peter 2:7-8), yet Lot did not finish life as a triumphant example of continued strong faith.  Same with Samson.  However, he still made it to the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11, though, because out of his weakness, he was another one who was MADE strong by God (Heb. 11:34). 

Christians are and have always been all over the map in their level of faith or failure to exercise that faith appropriately.  Our level of bearing fruit can vary widely, but it doesn’t change our identity as adopted children of God.  I can trust that God knows which of those fallen “pillars” you mentioned actually belonged to Him as His sheep, or whether they were only putting on a lengthy, deceptive show.  I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, as I certainly need this myself from others.



Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 16:18:12
Here is probably how you would alter the John 10:26-29 passage, 4WD....... ::doh::
I don't alter passages of Scripture.  That is your claim to fame with your Total Depravity and your Preterism. 

As for the promised seed of Abraham, Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Quote from: 3 Ressuretions
Blame-shifting has been a problem for sinful mankind ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden.  4WD, you have essentially done the same thing above when you accuse God of being “terribly remiss” for not regenerating all men.  Just sayin’.
I have not shifted any blame whatsoever. I haven't accused God of anything. I have simply pointed out the only logical implication your false theology demands.  But I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking from a Preterist.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 17:37:05
3Rs, man IS capable of reverting from a sheep to a goat in a Spiritual sense. If not The Spirit wasted a whole lot of text space in the Bible. If we must perservere to the end, what are we perservering? We, with The Spirit’s help and OUR aquiesence, are perservering and overcoming. With freewill, I don’t believe the Spirit will pull the puppet strings without our perserverence and overcoming. He gives us everything we need as to perservering and overcoming.  If the Spirit did that for us, there would be no reason for us to perservere or overcome our fleshly desires. Yes the Spirit gives us strength, but the will is OURS. God doesn’t want puppet compliance. That’s HIM, not us loving Him. Same with our kids. I don’t want my kids to do the right thing because I do it FOR them. I want them to SHOW their love by desiring AND DOING the  right thing after I have given them every tool, attitude and training FOR doing the right thing. Is this arrangement foolproof? No, that’s a result of freewill expression of I desire grom my kids and that God desires from us. Everything we experience with our kids is the same thing God experiences with us, both good and bad. Our kids first picture of what God is like or should be is the picture they receive from our behavior and actions towards them.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 18:08:14
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26-29 — For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 12:15-17 — Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Jn 15:6 — If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

2Pe 2:20-22 — For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

According to scripture man can fall from grace but on the flip side once saved always saved can be true IF;

1 John 1:5-10 (KJV)
5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


We will miss the mark but not lose our salvation if we continue to strive for the repentant life and walk in the spirit but if we choose to continue on in an unrepentant life then the scriptures above reveal the out come.

We  do have the promise of once saved always saved but it is conditioned upon our walk.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 18:08:55
I can barely understand half the posts in this thread.  Where I do understand, it's mostly because I've been talking to you on and off for the better part of two decades.

There's too much jargon.  Everyone uses words like "faith" and "justification," and nobody even agrees on the what these words mean.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 18:53:08
I am sorry I am not making myself clear I will just lurk to see where this goes again sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 19:31:06
I don’t even know if he was talking about you Yogi. All you did was post scriptures. It may have been me and/ot others.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 03:08:54
Proverbs 24:16 says “For a just man FALLETH SEVEN TIMES and riseth up again: but the wicked shall FALL INTO MISCHIEF.”

This type of fall speaks of “stumbling” into mischief or misfortune - not of a saint losing their stance as an adopted child of God.  Even though a just man may make a complete fool of himself by errors of judgment or even sinful acts (represented by the number 7 which signifies a level of completeness), yet they are still identified as a “just man” as they rise up again after each episode of repentance or recovered circumstances after adversity.

The wicked here are NOT said to “rise up again” in the same manner as the just man.  And as Jesus said in Matt. 15:14, the wicked Pharisees opposing Him He called “blind leaders” who were to be left alone to fall into the ditch.
Very good post~wonderful words from Solomon who above all should be able to relate to them and be eternally grateful for them!
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 03:17:17
I agree with 4wd. It was Abraham's faith in God and following His words that made him righteous before God. The question is, what God did Abraham believe in and what does this God say? Jesus showed us Abraham's faith and the words of the God that he believed in. Jesus didn't teach "saved by grace". When the rich man asked Him the way to eternal life, he said to follow God's commandments. " Cease to do evil and learn to do good" as Isaiah said "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow." We must have faith in the same God and obey the same words to be counted righteous. If through your sin, you come to see the truth of God's words then you are justified because you have already paid the price. Your sin condemned you (reaping what you sow). Living a life of sin IS hell.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 03:31:20
But I guess I shouldn't expect rational thinking from a Preterist.
That's not nice, especially so, since we are not discussing Preterism~just as I said to 3 Resurrection above
Quote from: 4WD Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 07:50:13
Be easy on him he's old~and can be temperamenta....but it is short-lived which is a good thing.
While I have you on the hook, let me make a statement to you about something you have said:
Quote from: 4WD Reply #53 on: Yesterday at 16:18:12
As for the promised seed of Abraham, Gal 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 16, 27-29~“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” ............................................ ...................“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
True, the promises of God were to the seed, which was to Christ~but do not stop there......and the MEMBERS of his ELECT BODY, which is ONE, made up of Jews and Gentiles! Selah.

Now you of all people on this forum should be able to comprehend this glorious truth. I could say more, but pretty sure I said enough I make God's truth clear enough where it could be understood.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 03:58:51
I am sorry I am not making myself clear I will just lurk to see where this goes again sorry for the confusion.
It wasn't you specifically.  It was more the first and second pages as a whole.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 04:02:40
If the Spirit did that for us, there would be no reason for us to perservere or overcome our fleshly desires.
Without leaving our subject "Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness? " I will say this: Christ has already done it ALL FOR US~it was HIS endurance~HIS faith, HIS obedience that secured eternal redemption for us~brother, we could not do it for ONE DAY, let along a LIFE OF FAITH, base on the demands of the law of God which can only acquit perfection, nothing less! As I asked above:
Quote from: RB OP Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 05:16:40
Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?  No Arminian can give a biblical answer to those questions.
Acutally, it is a PERFECT LIFE OF FAITH~which Christ offered unto God for our eternal salvation.
Quote from: Jaime on: Yesterday at 17:37:05
If the Spirit did that for us, there would be no reason for us to perservere or overcome our fleshly desires.
There are many reasons even though Christ paid it ALL. To show our love and thankfulness to him. To prove our sonship. To enjoy God's best for us while living in this world~his protection, power, and to save us and our loved ones from TROUBLES that comes to all of God's children when they disobey and walk after the lust of their own hearts. There are many hundreds of Proverbs telling me WHY as a child of God I should fear God and seek after him~there are great benefits in doing so and many sorrows to those who refuse to do so.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 04:25:08
I agree with 4wd. It was Abraham's faith in God and following His words that made him righteous before God.
So, you are making man's faith THE rightoeusness that God accepts. This goes against the scriptures. God's testimony is this:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:29-31~"That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Again:
Quote
Jeremiah 23:6~"In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
It must be either, OR~ man's faith cannot be what make us RIGHTEOUS, and still the Lord being OUR righteousness! I'll go Paul and Jeremiah.
Quote from: Bel on: Today at 03:17:17
Living a life of sin IS hell.
This is NOT what is under consideration, total different subject. We agree with that statement which can be used in another thread~but not his one.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 04:49:02
Red, MAN is told in scripture to perservere and overcome to the end. One of many is Rev 3:21 plus the letter to the 7 churches in Chapter 2 of Revelation.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 05:29:45
Red, MAN is told in scripture to perservere amd overcome to the end. One of of many is Rev 3:21 plus the letter to the 7 churches in Chapter 2 of Revelation.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Revelation 3:21~To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jaime, my faith is not in myself but in Christ who overcame for me~now, this does not mean that my inward thoughts are I can live as I please, for those are not the thoughts a child of God, but of a reprobate professing the religion of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 7:24,25~"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
As a child of God I'm very thankful that God has secured my gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ, by two immutable acts of God~his oath and his promises to Christ. The life of faith I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of Jesus Christ who loved me and gave his life for me. So, when I hear him exhort us to do this, or that, with the mind of the new man, I labor to do even though I do the things I hate even in my most holy acts of faith, and what I do love, that if do not....that is, as the law of God demands me to do~little slow of hearing at times, etc.  not loving others as myself, etc. the list is long.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 05:54:21
Red, my faith is also not in myself. It is in Jesus and His faithfulness and obedience. Our acceptance of his Grace (the free gift) we can’t earn is our faith in Him. Why do we have that faith? Because of his revealed faithfulness and obedience even unto death on a cross.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:02:06
Red, my faith is also not in myself. It is in Jesus and His faithfulness and obedience. Our acceptance of his Grace (the free gift) we can’t earn is our faith in Him. Why do we have that faith? Because of his revealed faithfulness and obedience even unto death on a cross.
Brother, to that confession I say a big heartily AMEN.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:04:23
Red, THAT statement is not and never has been in conflict with anything I have ever said about Christ and oir faith in HIM.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:25:04
It must be either, OR~ man's faith cannot be what make us RIGHTEOUS, and still the Lord being OUR righteousness! I'll go Paul and Jeremiah.
Of course man's faith cannot be what makes us righteous.  That is not what is being said.  First off, we are not made righteous. Even God does not do that.  When God forgives the sins of someone, those sins did not disappear; those sins did not cease to exist.  But in the forgiveness of sins, God has declared one to be righteous. We are declared to be righteous.  Only God, as judge, can do that.  The question is who are they whom God declares to be righteous.  It is they who believe in God. 

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:5  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Faith in God, in Abraham's case, was the deciding factor.  Because Abraham believed God, God declared him to be righteous.  In our case it is our faith in God, in Jesus Christ is the deciding factor. 

That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in Him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord (Rom 4:22-24),
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:32:25
Red, God provides the gift, we accept that gift we cannot earn by OUR faith. Yes the gift is possible because of Christ’s faithfulness, but our response in faith IS required. Not a work earning any part of the still free gift.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 07:47:14
There's too much jargon.  Everyone uses words like "faith" and "justification," and nobody even agrees on the what these words mean.
::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 08:25:17
Quote
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 18:08:55

 
Quote
   There's too much jargon.  Everyone uses words like "faith" and "justification," and nobody even agrees on the what these words mean.

::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1
Then maybe we should define the two.

I think 4WD did a good job defining justification do you agree with that definition?

So how are we to define faith so that we are all on the same page??
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 09:42:51
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:21:10
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen;" How does the Messiah (who lives outside of time) have faith?  He sees all things and knows all things (divine omniscience). 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:37:33
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
But the definition of faith is a problem.  There are those who think that faith is something that is given to you almost out of the blue.  It is akin to what some believe about being born again.  They believe that faith is something that happens to you, that it is a gift from God.  IT IS NOT.  Faith in God, believing IN God, is believing God coupled with trusting God.  It is developed like all other beliefs.  For some of us, who were born into Christian homes with believing parents, that development comes quite easily, maybe sometimes too easily.  For others it comes not so easily; for some it takes a good bit of studying of God's word.  And for some it can take a long time.  Paul said it well;  Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. /b]

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 10:43:32
If "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen;" How does the Messiah (who lives outside of time) have faith?  He sees all things and knows all things (divine omniscience).
As a man, He did not live outside of time.  But nevertheless, it was not faith that He had in God; rather it was absolute knowledge of all things God.  He did not simply believe that He was the Son of God; He knew absolutely that He was the Son of God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:12:55
I agree 4WD, salvation is the gift. Faith comes from hearing or reading the Word of God. Romans 10:17. Yes this aspect IS the main bone of contention among Christians.

Also 4WD an excellent point aboit Christ in the previous post right above this one.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 11:37:01
As a man, He did not live outside of time.  But nevertheless, it was not faith that He had in God; rather it was absolute knowledge of all things God.  He did not simply believe that He was the Son of God; He knew absolutely that He was the Son of God.
And absolute knowledge is NOT faith.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 00:47:03
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.

Yes, I agree. There are many different faiths, and according to each of these faiths God says this or God says that. To me, the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith. Abraham's faith = Jesus' faith, Abraham being the father of Jesus' faith. The Levitical law was not Abraham's faith because it didn't even exist at that time. Likewise, there are different definitions of righteousness depending on which faith you believe in.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 03:58:44
To me, the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith. Abraham's faith = Jesus' faith, Abraham being the father of Jesus' faith.
Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs~I've been studying the scriptures for many years and reading behind hundreds of writers, if not thousands and your statement here is a first.
Quote from: Bel on: Today at 00:47:03
the faith of Christ is pointing to a particular faith
Yes, and it is Jesus Christ's faith that he had as the Son OF MAN. He is the only man that lived in a body of flesh, that condemned sin in the body in which he lived in, which was~in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet he being free of sin in his flesh, because the was conceived by the power of the Highest~the Everlasting God, who is eternal both ways.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:1-4~"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Abraham was not the father of Jesus' faith~God was the Father of Jesus' faith~which is ( not was, but IS in a continuous state of BEING~John 1:18 ) in the bosom of the Father~they are one in their Divinity. Abraham came from Adam~therefore, conceived with a sinful nature from Adam.  This is why the virgin conception and birth of Jesus Christ is essential~making Jesus the second Adam for the first Adam was earthly and when left to himself and the power of his own will SINNED~the second Adam was the Lord from heaven, when left to himself condemned sin in the flesh and was victorious over the flesh, the Devil, death, and the grave. This he did AS A MAN by faith in the God of the holy scriptures~since he did not live his life as a private person but as a representative of an elect body, he being the Head thereof~and what he did, it was as though THEY DID THE SAME in the eyes of the Judge of all and his holy law.
Quote
Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
It is Christ's faith that is accounted for his elect as THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Our acts of faith is accounted unto us as proof that we are of the seed of Jesus Christ. We shall consider Abraham's faith more in detail to prove this. For now, let me give a perfect example how our faith is accounted unto us as righteousness~not legally, but practically. Above I said:
Quote from: RB in OP
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!
It is recorded here concerning Phinehas ZEAL:
Quote from: Moses
Numbers 25:6-13~"And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel."
Concerning this act of zeal for the God of Israel, David said these words:
Quote from: David, the prophet of God
Psalms 106:30,31~"Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
The exact same phrase used in describing Abraham's faith~here, is Phinehas' ZEAL. BOTH prove that they were righteous by their godly acts of faith/righteousness, etc.  Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous, it PROVED that he was righteous! 

 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 05:09:35
There is only one kind of faith that is biblical.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Our Lord knew all things (being God) so He had not hope nor did He not see things.  Knowledge transcends both hope and faith.

Faith is obtained only ONE WAY:

Romans 10:17 NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word [rhema = spoken word]of God.

Faith ONLY can come from hearing the voice of God. Did our Lord Hear the Father? Of course. But did that produce "assurance of things hoped for" or "conviction of things not seen?"  No since He did not need to hope and could see all.

IOW "faith of Christ" is a poor translation.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 05:50:20
Sorry for the way I speak . I don’t get you all the time as well.

But I still Desire to seek and like RB said, I’m working it out in my mind. With Godly teachers on this board. I respect you all. I truly do.

Tell me this .

Saul had faith , enough faith to go after  the Christians and do bad things to them

Was this Gods faith he had,  or a religious faith. Was it his faith ?

Was his faith in religion , and would that , and his faith be enough to save him?

No

It was only when he was in the name of Jesus Christ . A big ball of light that he was blinded so he could see. He now heard the spoken word of the Lord . Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord. Strange because he knew the word inside and out. Didn’t he . The Blind shall see , the deaf shall hear

He then believed in Christ . Before, he was persecuting him, by going after his body.

Sauls Faith nor a religious faith could not  save Saul . The faith of Jesus Christ did. He is faith. He is faithful.

When the Lord passed before Moses , the faithfulness of God did. God is faith

Muslims are seeing God in visions and receiving him . Not a alter call from earth but from heaven.

What faith saves us ....the Lords . If not it was a good word and we had great sing songs. I clap my hands and cheer on. But then Times get tough and then I leave church.

A believer may leave church but will never leave Him

It’s a relationship with him that keeps us, so when out world gets turned upside down, and our faith dwindles. We go ... but I know him. You can forget about church and people , but not him.

I have been in the pit of hell with life ....then he shows me in the spirit, I am  sitting on top of his shoulders.

I have had no faith at times , and that’s after even experiencing amazing encounters with him , when life was mean to me. Then he said I will move this mountain for you. He did it within a day.

He is faithful even when I am not.

If we have faith ..that faith was only ever given to us by God.we love him because he first loved us.

 How do we grow that faith that was given to us . A measure of faith . His seed in us , maybe a mustard seed .

 It’s By relationship by word and Spirit

Sorry if it a jumble . You know be by now :)



Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 07:31:22
I should begin this with the same phrase that you started your reply to bel, i.e.,
Quote from: RB link=topic=106914.msg1055171114#msg1055171114 date=1600160324
"Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs....."
But I will just leave it as a quote from you and let it fall where it will.
The exact same phrase used in describing Abraham's faith~here, is Phinehas' ZEAL. BOTH prove that they were righteous by their godly acts of faith/righteousness, etc.  Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous, it PROVED that he was righteous!
You are correct that Phinehas using his Javelin in killing those evil folks DID NOT make him righteous.  Nor did it prove that he was righteous.  It is an act of God. Phinehas' act of killing those evil folks was credited to him as righteousness.  The righteousness of God can never be acquired; and it existed in only one man, namely Jesus Christ the Son of God; it can only be imputed; and that only by God Himself. It does not mean, with respect to Abraham, to Phinehas or to anyone that are or become righteous as God is righteous.

As applied to Abraham in Genesis 15:6 or Romans 4:3 or to (KJV) "him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly"(Rom 4:5), it means neither that they are righteous or become righteous. Theoretically one may satisfy the law's commandments through perfect obedience and thereby actually be treated by God on the basis of one's own personal righteousness, but Paul declares the truth that such doesn't happen ever.  That is why God must credit or impute something else to sinners as the righteousness by which they are saved.  And as Paul declares in (KJV) Romans 4:5 "to him that believeth his faith is counted [credited, reckoned, imputed] for righteousness".  That is further reinforced in verse 11 "to all who believe...that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 07:53:17
Derek Prince (of blessed memory) used to define "righteousness" as "in right relationship."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 08:30:13
Righteousness [GR - dikaiosune]  is the character or quality of being right and/or just.  A person may be considered righteous on his own if he is truly right and/or just.  But that is an imperfect righteousness.  God on the other hand has the character or quality of being perfectly right and just.  The imperfect righteousness of a man is insufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  It is only through the perfect righteousness imputed to a man by God that is sufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  That perfect righteousness is imputed to, credited to, reckoned to, accounted to the one who believes in God. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 11:17:12
Righteousness [GR - dikaiosune]  is the character or quality of being right and/or just.  A person may be considered righteous on his own if he is truly right and/or just.  But that is an imperfect righteousness.  God on the other hand has the character or quality of being perfectly right and just.  The imperfect righteousness of a man is insufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  It is only through the perfect righteousness imputed to a man by God that is sufficient to gain forgiveness of his sins from God.  That perfect righteousness is imputed to, credited to, reckoned to, accounted to the one who believes in God.
That is WAY too western for biblical definitions.  Even though the NT may have been written in Greek, the underlying thought is Hebraic and eastern.

Please use a relational instead of abstract definition.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 11:30:55
That is WAY too western for biblical definitions.  Even though the NT may have been written in Greek, the underlying thought is Hebraic and eastern.

Please use a relational instead of abstract definition.
B S
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 15:18:07
Sorry for the way I speak . ........................Sorry if it a jumble . You know be by now :)
Mark, you opened up your heart to us and showed us your childlike faith, and it brought joy to my heart~THANK YOU! Mark, the body of Christ NEEDS children of faith like you to encourage us and strengthen us. The mouth cannot say to the least member, I have no need of you~because as soon as you are not around we SEE and KNOW how important you are. May the Lord who is gracious above all, be so to you and fill you with joy, peace, and comfort in knowing him~the Lord Jesus bless you, my dear brother~Your brother and friend, RB.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 16:09:43
I love you my brother and friend and all my brothers and sisters on this board. Have a great day . May his face shine upon us and our families and give us peace.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 00:44:38
Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about, and you definitely cannot confirm your strange beliefs~I've been studying the scriptures for many years and reading behind hundreds of writers, if not thousands and your statement here is a first.

Well then, you might want to consider it.

"Abraham is the father of all who believe." Jesus believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was Abraham's "seed". Abraham was the father of Jesus' faith and what we call the Christian faith today. It is faith in a particular God and His word.
Jesus Himself refers to  Father Abraham in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Bemark: You made a good point in saying that Saul had faith but it did not save him. Maybe Saul did not put his faith in the right place.


4WD: You mentioned that our imperfect righteousness is insufficient to gain forgiveness of sins from God, yet we are told that if we forgive then we will be forgiven. God does not expect us to be perfect as He is perfect. Man demands perfection. We are not God, therefore we do not know all things. I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know. " Love your neighbor as yourself." This is what God expects.

 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 02:44:30
Then maybe we should define the two.
There's some value in that.  But let me float a crazy idea out there...

What if... instead of adding a layer of obfuscation by defining special words and arguing over their meanings...

What if we just use used words that are already part of today's vernacular?

::peeking::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 03:07:36
I don’t see that the definition of faith is a problem, but WHOSE faith is it talking about is where we get cross ways with each other.
I think it is. 

When you say faith, are you talking about believing there is a God?  Even the demons do that... they even believe in the one, true God... for all the good that will do them.

Do you mean believing God, in the sense of accepting what it says in the Bible?  (If so, whose interpretation?)

Do you mean believing God, in the sense that we walk around dialoguing with Him all the time, and receiving directions He beams straight into our brains?  That seems to be what happened for Abraham, but then there are plenty of churches who would call that crazy-town... and more than a few cults who wouldn't.

Or maybe when you say faith, you are talking about adhering to a set of standards.  If you say 'Jesus faith' are you referring to His keeping the whole Law?  More than the Law, perhaps?  (But Paul seems to call this bondage, in opposition to faith...)

Or perhaps its mostly a matter of belonging to the group?  Those-who-have-faith is certainly a group that the Bible talks about, and there IS an emphasis on the assembling of the membership of the church into one corporate body.

You might even mean more than one of these things, in different contexts.

A little disambiguation would be nice.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:12:41
When I say faith I don’t mean just believing something or someone exists. Even the Demons believe in Christ, but as someone else has said, it involves TRUST in that person, in this context Jesus Christ. I believe Satan exists, but I wouldn’t say I have faith in Satan. It seems the discussion we ought to have is FAITH VS FAITHFULNESS. Both nouns, but not necessarily synonyms.

What words in our present vernacular would you prefer in lieu of what is being used by some? Even with words like trust, some defining might need to be done. Faith is a word with a particular meaning. Not sure if most words don’t fall in that category even thise in the “modern” vernacular. Also, Modern vernacular can vary from the extremes of post 65 yr old West Texan to 30 something urban dweller from the Northeast.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:36:21
I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know.
Knowledge is not perfection~actually having knowledge is a great source of PRIDE, more than making us Christ-like.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 8:2,3~Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Does not mean all who have knowledge are puffed up, but it IS the source of pride if unguarded and ruled.
Quote from:  bel on: Today at 00:44:38
I don't expect my children to be perfect because they do not know what I know.
How about they're born after your sinful nature, and left to themselves without the word of God restraining them, WOULD grow into little demons after their true father, the Devil himself!
Quote from: bel on: Today at 00:44:38
"Abraham is the father of all who believe." Jesus believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was Abraham's "seed". Abraham was the father of Jesus' faith and what we call the Christian faith today. It is faith in a particular God and His word. Jesus Himself refers to  Father Abraham in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
The seed was CHRIST the HEAD of the elect body~Ahraham was part of that elect body ~the SYSTEM under which God made known to His elect the promises of his grace to them through Christ IS FAITH~in this sense is Abraham the father of the children of FAITH~the SYSTEM under which the just live by for them to know they are God's children and know that it is by Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness that SECURED their right to be called the children of God~he is the SURETY of each and every child of promise~ a child of God's oath to him for his redemption work of fulling the demands of the law of God and suffering the penalty of that law for THEM in his death~the just for the unjust.

Faith in Romans four and Galatians three is referring to the SYSTEM of FAITH by which God's elect comes to know of the great salvation that they have IN CHRIST~knowing that is it an act of pure grace without the deeds of the law, secured by two immutable acts of God to his Son Jesus Christ: his holy oath and promises to HIS SEED~Jesus being the elect HEAD and we the members of his elect body. Abraham being chosen to be the EXAMPLE of all of the true seed using HIS FAITH at different times in his life PROVING that he was indeed a friend of God part of the holy seed by his acts of faith beginning with him leaving his homeland seeking a CITY that hath foundations whose builder and maker was God~using the land of Cannan as an example of that promised land which was the indeed the world to come~regardless where Abraham was standing at ANY given time and looking....AS FAR as he could see one day at THAT DAY it would be HIS and the children of God promised to Christ!
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:45:09
B S

Very helpful. 

Please read this:  (not my post)
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/deciphering-reconciling-scripture/msg1055171155/?topicseen#msg1055171155
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:53:57
I do think the Hebrew thought or Eastern thinking contributed to their blindness about Christ that Paul described in Romans 11. And God knew and used this for his purposes.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:54:03
I love you my brother and friend and all my brothers and sisters on this board. Have a great day . May his face shine upon us and our families and give us peace.
Mark, the greatest of ALL gifts is CHARITY~ones who have charity ruling their spirit is the most powerful saints living in this world and the most beneficial gift to the body of Christ and it seems you are filled with charity~ use it for God's glory toward his children and all men if possible. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 13:41:49
What words in our present vernacular would you prefer in lieu of what is being used by some? Even with words like trust, some defining might need to be done.
Trust is solid for some situations.  Rely would work in the same way.  Using a single word for wholesale substitution won't work.  You'd have to play it by ear and choose words on a case-by-case basis to make your meaning clear.

Also, Modern vernacular can cary from the extremes of oost 65 yr old West Texan to 30 something urban dweller from the Northeast.
I'm pretty sure that the gap between Texas and Oregon is smaller than the gap between Texas and 17th century England.  ::smile::  Maybe not in the Politics forum...  rofl
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 14:25:35
Of course when the Bible uses faith, it is a translation from the original language. Whatever the original language tagged thenword’s meaning via contect of course, IS the meaning of the word. We English speakers shouldn’t limit oir interpretation to just the breadth of the English language. We translate three Greek words as love, so the intended “flavor” of the word is important. Jesus asked Peter two different questions, do you phileo and do you agape me? In English it looks like a very redundant dialogue.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 15:43:26
Quote
We translate three Greek words as love,
Actually it is 4:

Agape
Phileo
Eros
Storge

And in Hebrew:

Ahavah
Dod
chashak
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:05:55
I do think the Hebrew thought or Eastern thinking contributed to their blindness about Christ that Paul described in Romans 11. And God knew and used this for his purposes.
Definitely not.  The blindness was willful. 

They had all the tools to understand, and DID understand, but rejected the truth because... well, the Bible says because they loved a lie, so let's go with that.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:20:22
They missed the truth obviously. I would say the blindnness had a lot to do with it, and for a purpose. Some reason God knew that the Gentiles making them jealous would do the trick some day. Romans 11:8-11. I say, let’s go with Paul’s explanation. God gave them a spirit of stupor and blindness even to this day.

They believed in a Messiah, but missed that Jesus was the one. I believe stiff necked and partially blinded.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:58:06
I think it's more rejected than missed.

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  Matt 13:15
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 17:28:41
Read Romans 11:8-12. They were GIVEN a spirit of stupor and blindness. I think they missed it or rejected it largely by God’s plan and his plan had a purpose.
.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 23:19:06
Jarrod, you said:Or maybe when you say faith, you are talking about adhering to a set of standards.

Yes, I believe this is what it means when they are talking about the faith of Christ or Christ's faith and Abraham's faith. It is the belief in a certain set of standards ( the word) of a specific God. To me, Christ's faith and Abraham's faith were one and the same.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 00:04:20
Knowledge is not perfection~actually having knowledge is a great source of PRIDE, more than making us Christ-like.

 
Quote
From bel: In saying that my children do not know what I know, I meant that they do not know all things as God knows all things and neither do we as man is not God. However, I do have a little more wisdom than my children.


How about they're born after your sinful nature, and left to themselves without the word of God restraining them, WOULD grow into little demons after their true father, the Devil himself!

Quote
From bel: "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it is better for him that a millstone were hung around his neck." Their true Father is God.

The seed was CHRIST the HEAD of the elect body~Ahraham was part of that elect body ~the SYSTEM under which God made known to His elect the promises of his grace to them through Christ IS FAITH~in this sense is Abraham the father of the children of FAITH~the SYSTEM under which the just live by for them to know they are God's children and know that it is by Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness that SECURED their right to be called the children of God~he is the SURETY of each and every child of promise~ a child of God's oath to him for his redemption work of fulling the demands of the law of God and suffering the penalty of that law for THEM in his death~the just for the unjust.

Quote
From bel: Taking Jarrod's definition of faith, which is belief in a certain set of standards ( the word) of a specific God. It is the Law of reciprocity which both Abraham and Jesus adhered to. Abraham was the head of the elect as well, him being the father of the faith. What secured their right to be called the children of God is "that they may walk in My statures and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people and I will be their God." "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." The same applies to us today.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 04:53:35
I think it's more rejected than missed.

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  Matt 13:15
Indeed. Rejected even though they understood.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 04:58:39
In saying that my children do not know what I know, I meant that they do not know all things as God knows all things and neither do we as man is not God. However, I do have a little more wisdom than my children.
Well, you were not clear as to what you meant and still are not~but that's okay. With age comes wisdom, at least it should, not always is this true.
Quote
Job 32:9~"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment."
I said above to you:
Quote from: RB on: Yesterday at 05:36:21
How about they're born after your sinful nature, and left to themselves without the word of God restraining them, WOULD grow into little demons after their true father, the Devil himself!
You came back with this?
Quote from:  bel on: Today at 00:04:20
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it is better for him that a millstone were hung around his neck." Their true Father is God.
You again, have zero understanding on this doctrine concerning the two generations of people living in this world since the fall of man! The righteous and the evil, one is chosen, one was not chosen~one, whose father is God, the other, whose father is the Devil. One whose image was RECREATED after God when redeemed from the fall, the other left to themselves to serve their sinful wicked lust. To one the word of God said:
Quote from: HOLY GHOST
1st Peter 2:8-10~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
To the other the scriptures said:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:44,45~"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."
Read more: Deuteronomy 1:35; Proverbs 30; Matthew 12:39 Matthew 23; Luke 9 and many more. Not all are children of God~that doctrine eventually leads to folks believing in "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy?" PETA will support your doctrine but God's word does not. 
Quote
  What secured their right to be called the children of God is "that they may walk in My statures and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people and I will be their God." "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." The same applies to us today.
Abraham's obedience DID NOT secure his right to be called the children of God! The scriptures said otherwise.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:13-18~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
The same thing that SECURED Abraham's blessing; Issac's birth; are the same TWO things that secured all other PROMISED heirs of their inheritance.....God's OATH and his PROMISES OF GRACE brought to fruition THROUGH Jesus' faith/obedience and righteousness!
Quote from: Paul
Galtians 4:28-31~Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
God's children are children of FREE grace base on God's promises through Jesus Christ's PERFECT life of faith/obedience. Free children receive these promises of grace, children of the bondwoman reject and mocks the children of God's promises, just as Ismael mocked Issac, the son of PROMISE.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 05:37:58
Dave how does the stupor and blindness imposed by God play on their “understanding”?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: johntwayne on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 05:56:07
Well, you were not clear as to what you meant and still are not~but that's okay. With age comes wisdom, at least it should, not always is this true. I said above to you: You came back with this? You again, have zero understanding on this doctrine concerning the two generations of people living in this world since the fall of man! The righteous and the evil, one is chosen, one was not chosen~one, whose father is God, the other, whose father is the Devil. One whose image was RECREATED after God when redeemed from the fall, the other left to themselves to serve their sinful wicked lust. To one the word of God said: To the other the scriptures said: Read more: Deuteronomy 1:35; Proverbs 30; Matthew 12:39 Matthew 23; Luke 9 and many more. Not all are children of God~that doctrine eventually leads to folks believing in "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy?" PETA will support your doctrine but God's word does not.   Abraham's obedience DID NOT secure his right to be called the children of God! The scriptures said otherwise. The same thing that SECURED Abraham's blessing; Issac's birth; are the same TWO things that secured all other PROMISED heirs of their inheritance.....God's OATH and his PROMISES OF GRACE brought to fruition THROUGH Jesus' faith/obedience and righteousness! God's children are children of FREE grace base on God's promises through Jesus Christ's PERFECT life of faith/obedience. Free children receive these promises of grace, children of the bondwoman reject and mocks the children of God's promises, just as Ismael mocked Issac, the son of PROMISE.

If there was ever a doctrine of the devil the above is it. God chooses some to be saved, but others are offered no hope of salvation at all. God's doctrine is that He desires all men to be saved and come to repentance.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 06:43:07
If there was ever a doctrine of the devil the above is it. God chooses some to be saved, but others are offered no hope of salvation at all. God's doctrine is that He desires all men to be saved and come to repentance.
God gave ALL MEN the perfect opportunity IN ADAM~ a doctrine that you and others reject. He SECURED some ( thousands of millions ) from the fall by his grace and mercy.......... NOT OFFERED by freely given to them. IF God desires for ALL MEN to be saved, then ALL WOULD, simply because his will CANNOT be overthrown or defeated by any powers, for no one is greater than him. if you believe it is a doctrine of devils, then let me ask you this question: " Do you sing the song AMAZING GRACE" written by John Newton? If you do then you are practicing hypocrisy in making that statement for he believed just as strong as I do on the doctrine of election OF GRACE.  This short read it:

John Newton's Letters

The doctrines of election and final perseverance

Dear Sir,
Your letter breathes the spirit of a Christian, though you say you are not a Calvinist. I would have still confined myself, in my letters, to the great truths in which we are agreed, if you had not invited me to touch upon the points wherein we differ. If you were insistent in your present sentiments, I would not think it my duty to debate with you: in that case, we might contend as much for victory as for truth. But as you profess yourself an inquirer, and are desirous of forming your judgment agreeably to the word of God, without being influenced by the authority of names and parties, I willingly embrace the occasion you offer me.

You say, that though you are not prejudiced against the doctrines of election and perseverance of the saints, they appear to you attended with such difficulties, that you cannot yet heartily and fully assent to them. May the Lord the Spirit, whose office it is to guide his people into all truth, dictate to my pen, and accompany what I shall write with his blessing. It is not my intention to prove and illustrate these doctrines at large, or to encounter the various objections that have been raised against them. So much has been done in this way already, that I could only repeat what has been said to greater advantage by others. Nor need I refer you to the books which have been professedly written upon this argument. In a letter to a friend, I shall not aim at the exactness of a disputant, but only offer a few unpremeditated hints, in the same manner as if I had the pleasure of personally conversing with you.

Permit me to remind you, in the first place, of that important aphorism, John 3:27, (which seems to speak strongly in favor, of the doctrines in question): "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from Heaven." If you should accede to my opinions upon my persuasion only, you would be little benefited by the exchange. The Lord alone can give us the true, vital, comfortable, and useful knowledge of his own truths. We may become wise in notions, and so far masters of a system, or scheme of doctrine, as to be able to argue, object, and fight, in favor of our own hypothesis, by dint of application, and natural abilities; but we rightly understand what we say, and whereof we affirm, no farther than we have a spiritual perception of it wrought in our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not, therefore, by noisy disputation, but by humble waiting upon God in prayer, and a careful perusal of his holy word, that we are to expect a satisfactory, experimental, and efficacious knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus. I am persuaded that you are seeking in this way: if so, I am confident you shall not seek in vain. The Lord teaches effectually, though for the most part gradually. The path of the just is compared to the light, which is very faint at the early dawn, but shines more and more to the perfect day.

If you sincerely seek the Lord's direction by prayer, you will of course make use of his appointed means of information, and search the Scriptures. Give me leave to offer you the following advises, while you are reading and comparing spiritual things with spiritual. First, Not to lay too great stress upon a few detached texts, but seek for that sense which is most agreeable to the general strain of the Scripture. The infallible word of God must, doubtless, be consistent with itself: if it does not appear so to us, the obscurity and seeming inconsistency must be charged to the remaining darkness and ignorance of our minds. As many locks, whose wards differ, are opened with equal ease by one master-key; so there is a certain comprehensive view of scriptural truth, which opens hard places, solves objections, and happily reconciles, illustrates, and harmonizes many texts, which to those who have not this master-key, frequently styled the analogy of faith, appear little less than contradictory to each other. When you obtain this key, you will be sure that you have the right sense.

Again: You will do well to consult experience as you go along. For though this is not to be depended upon in the first instance, but must itself be subjected to the rule of the written word, yet it is a good subordinate help. Consider which sense is most agreeable to what passes within you and around you, and which best answers to the dealings of God with yourself, and to what you can observe of his dealings with others.

Farther: When you are led (as I think you will be, if you are not already) to view the Calvinist doctrines in a favorable light, be not afraid of embracing them, because there may be perhaps some objections which, for lack of a full possession of the key I mentioned, you are not able to clear up; but consider if there are not as strong or stronger objections against the other side. We are poor weak creatures; and the clearing up of every difficulty is not what we are immediately called to, but rather to seek that light which may strengthen and feed our souls.

Lastly: Compare the tendency of different opinions. This is an excellent rule, if we can fairly apply it. Whatever is from God, has a sure tendency to ascribe glory to him, to exclude boasting from the creature, to promote the love and practice of holiness, and increase our dependence upon his grace and faithfulness. The Calvinists have no reason to be afraid of resting the merits of their cause upon this issue; notwithstanding the unjust misrepresentations which have been often made of their principles, and the ungenerous treatment of those who would charge the miscarriages of a few individuals, as the necessary consequence of embracing those principles.

But I must check myself, or I shall finish my letter before I properly begin my subject. You have objections to the doctrine of election. You will however agree with me, that Scripture does speak of it, and that in very strong and express terms, particularly Paul. I have met with some sincere people, as I believe, who have told me, they could not bear to read his 9th chapter to the Romans, but always passed it over: so that their prejudices against election prejudiced them against a part of the Scripture likewise. But why so, unless because the dreaded doctrine is maintained too plainly to be evaded? But you will say, that some writers and preachers attempt to put an easier sense upon the Apostle's words. Let us judge then, as I lately proposed, from experience.

Admitting, what I am sure you will admit, the total depravity of human nature, how can we account for the conversion of a soul to God, unless we likewise admit an election of grace? The work must begin somewhere. Either the sinner first seeks the Lord, or the Lord first seeks the sinner. The former is impossible, if by nature we are dead in trespasses and sins; if the god of this world has blinded our eyes, and maintains the possession of our hearts; and if our carnal minds, so far from being disposed to seek God, are enmity against him.

Let me appeal to yourself. I think you know yourself too well to say, that you either sought or loved the Lord first: perhaps you are conscious, that for a season, and so far as in you lay, you even resisted his call; and must have perished, if he had not made you willing in the day of his power, and saved you in defiance of yourself. In your own case, you acknowledge that he began with you; and it must be the case universally with all who are called, if the whole race of mankind are by nature enemies to God. Then, farther, there must be an election, unless all are called. But we are assured that the broad road, which is thronged with the greatest multitudes, leads to destruction. Were not you and I in this road? Were we any better than those who continue in it still? What has made us differ from our former selves? Grace! What has made us differ from those who are now as we once were? Grace! Then this grace, by the very terms, must be differencing, or distinguishing grace; that is, in other words, electing grace.

And to suppose that God would make this election or choice only at the time of our calling, is not only unscriptural, but contrary to the dictates of reason, and the ideas we have of the Divine perfections, particularly those of omniscience and immutability. Those who believe there is any power in man by nature, whereby he can turn to God, may contend for a conditional election upon the foresight of faith and obedience: but while others dispute, let you and I admire, for we know that the Lord foresaw us (as we were) in a state utterly incapable either of believing or obeying, unless he was pleased to work in us to will and to do according to his own good pleasure.

As to final perseverance, whatever judgment we form of it in a doctrinal view, unless we ourselves do so persevere, our profession of religion will be utterly vain; for only "those who endure to the end shall be saved." It would seem that whoever believes this, and is duly apprised of his own weakness, the number and strength of his spiritual enemies, and the difficulties and dangers arising from his situation in this evil world, will at least be desirous to have (if possible) some security that his labor and expectation shall not be in vain. To be at an uncertainty in a point of so great importance; to have nothing to trust to for our continuance in well-doing, but our own feeble efforts, our partial diligence and shortsighted care; must surely be distressing, if we rightly consider how unable we are in ourselves to withstand the forces of the world, the flesh, and the devil, which are combined against our peace.

In this view I would expect, that the opposers of this doctrine, if thoroughly sensible of their state and situation, upon a supposition, that they should be able to prove it unscriptural and false, would weep over their victory, and be sorry that a sentiment, so apparently suited to encourage and animate our hope, should not be founded in truth. It is not to be wondered at, that this doctrine, which gives to the Lord the glory due to his name, and provides so effectually for the comfort of his people, should be opposed and traduced by men of corrupt hearts. But it may well seem strange, that those who feel their need of it, and cannot be comfortable without it, should be afraid or unwilling to receive it. Yet many a child of light is walking in darkness upon this account. Either they are staggered by the sentiments of those whom they think wiser than themselves, or stumbled by the falls of professors who were once advocates for this doctrine, or perplexed because they cannot rightly understand those passages of Scripture which seem to speak a different language. But, as light and knowledge increase, these difficulties are lessened. The Lord claims the honor; and he engages for the accomplishment of a complete salvation, that no power shall pluck his people out of his hand, or separate them from his love.

Their perseverance in grace, besides being asserted by many express promises, may be proved with the fullest evidence from the unchangeableness of God, the intercession of Christ, the union which exists between him and his people, and from the principle of spiritual life he has implanted in their hearts, which in its own nature is connected with everlasting life; for grace is the seed of glory. I have not room to enlarge on these particulars, but refer you to the following texts, from which various strong and invincible arguments might be drawn for their confirmation: Luke 14:28-30, compared with Phi. 1:6; Heb. 7:25, with Rom. 8:34-39; John 14:19, with John 15:1-2; John 4:14. Upon these grounds, my friend, why may not you, who have fled for refuge to the hope set before you, and committed your soul to Jesus, rejoice in his salvation; and say, "While Christ is the foundation, root, head, and husband of his people, while the word of God is Yes and Amen, while the counsels of God are unchangeable, while we have a Mediator and High Priest before the throne, while the Holy Spirit is willing and able to bear witness to the truths of the Gospel, while God is wiser than men, and stronger than Satan—so long the believer in Jesus is and shall be safe? Heaven and earth must pass away; but the promise, the oath, the blood, on which my soul relies, affords me a security which can never fail."

As the doctrines of election and perseverance are comfortable, so they cut off all pretense of boasting and self-dependence when they are truly received in the heart, and therefore tend to exalt the Savior. Of course they stain the pride of all human glory, and leave us nothing to glory in but the Lord. The more we are convinced of our utter depravity and inability from first to last, the more excellent will Jesus appear. The whole may give the physician a good word, but the sick alone know how to prize him. And here I cannot but remark a difference between those who have nothing to trust to but free grace, and those who ascribe a little at least to some good disposition and ability in man. We assent to whatever they enforce from the word of God on the subject of sanctification. We acknowledge its importance, its excellency, its beauty; but we could wish they would join more with us in exalting the Redeemer's name. Their experience seems to lead them to talk of themselves, of the change that is wrought in them, and the much that depends upon their own watchfulness and striving. We likewise would be thankful if we could perceive a change wrought in us by the power of grace; we desire to be found watching likewise. But when our hopes are most alive, it is less from a view of the imperfect beginnings of grace in our hearts, than from an apprehension of him who is our all in all. His person, his love, his sufferings, his intercession, his compassion, his fullness, and his faithfulness—these are our delightful themes, which leave us little leisure, when in our best frames, to speak of ourselves. How do our hearts soften, and our eyes melt, when we feel some liberty in thinking and speaking of him! For we had no help in time past, nor can have any in time to some, but from him alone.

If any people have contributed a mite to their own salvation, it was more than we could do. If any were obedient and faithful to the first calls and impressions of his Spirit, it was not our case. If any were prepared to receive him beforehand, we know that we were in a state of alienation from him. We needed sovereign, irresistible grace to save us, or we would be lost forever! If there are any who have a power of their own, we must confess ourselves poorer than they are. We cannot watch, unless he watches with us; we cannot strive, unless he strives with us; we cannot stand one moment, unless he holds us up; and we believe we must perish after all, unless his faithfulness is engaged to keep us. But this we trust he will do, not for our righteousness, but for his own name's sake, and because, having loved us with an everlasting love, he has been pleased in loving kindness to draw us to himself, and to be found by us when we sought him not.

Can you think, dear Sir, that a person who lives under the influence of these sentiments, will desire to continue in sin because grace abounds? No! you are too candid an observer of men and manners, to believe the calumnies which are propagated against us. It is true, there are too many false and empty professors among us; but are there none among those who hold the opposite sentiments? And I would observe, that the objection drawn from the miscarriages of reputed Calvinists is quite beside the purpose. We maintain, that no doctrines or means can change the heart, or produce a gracious conversation, without the efficacious power of Almighty grace: therefore, if it is found to be so in fact, it should not be charged against our doctrine, but rather admitted as a proof and confirmation of it. We confess, that we fall sadly short in everything, and have reason to be ashamed and amazed that we are so faintly influenced by such animating principles; yet, upon the whole, our consciences bear us witness, and we hope we may declare it both to the church and to the world without just fear of contradiction, that the doctrines of grace are doctrines according to godliness." John Newton who wrote "the song loved by most, even the world of unbelievers.

At least live a consistent life~is all we have to say.

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 07:05:11
God's doctrine is that He desires all men to be saved and come to repentance.
That is such an hyproctical statement in light of so many scriptures and examples. Here are some questions for you to answer with scriptures:

Then who made YOU to differ from those around you even those within your own family?

Did God give the Egyptians the SAME opportunity as he did the Israelites? If yes, prove it.

Did God, give the seven nations that Israel drove out the SAME opportunity as he did Israel? 

What people in the OT could it be said: to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises? Are there any? If not, why not?

WHY did God choose Israel above all other nations? Can you tell me using the scriptures, if yes, then do so?

I have so many more, yet one more and I'm finished for now: but start here~you should end up saying that the PROMISE of eternal life is based upon JESUS' obedience, not those who enjoy this blessed free gift which was promised BEFORE the foundation of the world, or from eternity past!
Quote from: Paul
Titus 1:2~"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
Last question for now: God's promises are based upon WHAT? Answer it and show me the gospel you are trusting in! 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 07:43:15
God gave ALL MEN the perfect opportunity IN ADAM
I don't know how to react to that statement, a statement that you have made many times, except to say that it is ludicrous.  There is absolutely no way to make sense of it.  What else besides disobeying God IN ADAM did you do?  Did you eat IN ADAM of the forbidden fruit?  Did you walk naked IN ADAM with Eve in the Garden? Did you also hear IN ADAM the sound of God walking in the Garden?  Did you IN ADAM complain to God that Eve gave you the forbidden fruit of the tree?

Quote from: RB
~ a doctrine that you and others reject.
And rightly so, because it is the most meaningless and mindless doctrine that man could possibly invent.

As for Isaac Newton's view of Calvin's teachings, all I can say is that while he was brilliant, in his time, for the aspects of nature physically, he, like Calvin, seriously misunderstood so much of God's word when it comes to the aspects of nature, spiritually.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 08:21:26
RB, I think the fundamental problem you have is your refusal to understand that God can know everything from beginning to end without having caused everything from beginning to end.  God's omniscience is not causative.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 09:02:00
RB, I think the fundamental problem you have is your refusal to understand that God can know everything from beginning to end without having caused everything from beginning to end.  God's omniscience is not causative.
Peter would disagree with you!
Quote
1st Peter 1:2~"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things IS the causation of our election. He KNEW if man and angels LEFT TO THELSVELES  would apostate from him and would ONLY harden THEMSELVES IF he had not purposed to show mercy to some of them. There is ONLY one Being that is IMMUTABLE and that is God, he alone possesses that glorious attribute.   
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 09:07:16
As for Isaac Newton's view of Calvin's teachings, all I can say is that while he was brilliant, in his time, for the aspects of nature physically, he, like Calvin, seriously misunderstood so much of God's word when it comes to the aspects of nature, spiritually.
I did not mention Isaac Newton, but John Newton~yet he ALSO believed in God's election of Grace. Besides, it is NOT Clavin's doctrine, but the word of God and MANY men taught this way before John Calvin. RCC and EOC were the ones that hated this truth and still do! Just about every group of believers taught it before Calvin~I could give you a long list of churches who believed in Election BEFORE 1500's.  https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augpel.html
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 09:52:22
I did not mention Isaac Newton, but John Newton~
Of course, My mistake.  That's now two of them.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 10:03:01
Peter would disagree with you! God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of all things IS the causation of our election.
No, not quite.  It was the fact that God knew before the creation who would believe in Him and who would not.  Those He knew would believe are the ones that He chose [elected].  His foreknowledge of their belief is why He chose them, it was not why they believed Him.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 10:15:39
WHOEVER was responsible for the fig newton should be applauded. ::geek::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 14:33:39
That is such an hyproctical statement in light of so many scriptures and examples. Here are some questions for you to answer with scriptures:

Then who made YOU to differ from those around you even those within your own family?

Did God give the Egyptians the SAME opportunity as he did the Israelites? If yes, prove it.

Did God, give the seven nations that Israel drove out the SAME opportunity as he did Israel? 

What people in the OT could it be said: to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises? Are there any? If not, why not?

WHY did God choose Israel above all other nations? Can you tell me using the scriptures, if yes, then do so?

I have so many more, yet one more and I'm finished for now: but start here~you should end up saying that the PROMISE of eternal life is based upon JESUS' obedience, not those who enjoy this blessed free gift which was promised BEFORE the foundation of the world, or from eternity past! Last question for now: God's promises are based upon WHAT? Answer it and show me the gospel you are trusting in!
With regards to the several rhetorical questions here pertaining to Israel, and their special position...

Israel did receive a special election to act as a priesthood among nations.  But the opportunity of righteousness and salvation was ALSO given to ALL nations.  God's covenant with Noah contains the terms by which Gentiles might be considered righteous.

It isn't as though God just abandoned everyone but Israel to the pit.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 22:11:38
You came back with this? You again, have zero understanding on this doctrine concerning the two generations of people living in this world.

Quote
From bel: RB, you said the Devil was their TRUE father. Is the devil a True father or a FALSE father, a liar and a theif?

 Abraham's obedience DID NOT secure his right to be called the children of God!

Quote
From bel: "All who are led by the Spirit are sons of God." Was Abraham led by the Spirit of God and did he obey?

Quote
From bel:"That they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people and I will be their God." IF you obey God's commandments, THEN He will be your God and you will be His child.


 

Abraham was blessed with a son of God, Isaac ,who believed in and obeyed the same God as his father Abraham.
"I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear , FOR I AM WITH YOU.
"All who are led by the Spirit are sons of God.
Genesis 26:12 "Now Isaac sowed seed in the land, and that very year he reaped a hundredfold. And the Lord blessed him."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 04:09:57
RB, you said the Devil was their TRUE father. Is the devil a True father or a FALSE father, a liar and a theif?
What do you think? It's very clear who he is he.
Quote
Revelation 9:11~"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
He is the father of DESTRUCTION and DESTROYER! Is that a good father or false, one that's a liar and thief?
Quote from:  bel on: Yesterday at 22:11:38
"All who are led by the Spirit are sons of God." Was Abraham led by the Spirit of God and did he obey?
He was a friend of God and God DOES NOT fellowship with those who walk after the flesh!
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 22:11:38
Abraham was blessed with a son of God, Isaac ,who believed in and obeyed the same God as his father Abraham "I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear , FOR I AM WITH YOU. "All who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. Genesis 26:12 "Now Isaac sowed seed in the land, and that very year he reaped a hundredfold. And the Lord blessed him."
Why even go here? We are NOT discussing this topic and NO ONE is denying these truths.

One thought~Abraham was NOT blessed with Isaac BECAUSE of his faithfulness, Isaac was born based upon two immutable acts of God~God's oath to Abraham and his promises of grace to him. 
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:28,29~"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."
Isaac was born by the POWER of God's Spirit just as we are. We were promised and given to Jesus Christ by his Father to redeem and he finished the work given to him. We are born again by the same oath, promises, and power on the behalf of Jesus Christ, his faith, obedience, and righteousness SECURED our salvation from sin and condemnation.
Quote from: THE LORD'S PRAYER UNTO HIS FATHER
John 17~"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
Never a man spake as Jesus did, and never a man prayed a Jesus did. His holy prayer was a little too much Calvinistic for most folks taste! Selah.

Pray like that in most churches today they just might show you the nearest door~for sure they would never ask you to pray again.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 04:46:05
No, not quite.  It was the fact that God knew before the creation who would believe in Him and who would not.  Those He knew would believe are the ones that He chose [elected].  His foreknowledge of their belief is why He chose them, it was not why they believed Him.
he knew ....yes he did. He created man to love,  but also bring out the inequity that was found in the devil and the angels. He knew that mankind would fall, and he knew that the devil would tempt them. There was 2 trees in the garden. Mankind was planted also in the garden to Bring out in the devil, who he really wanted to be. That was to be god. They joined with him and ate his fruit and became one with him. A new fathers seed now was in mankind. The bent to do wrong.  That is why we are born in inequity because he was our father. That is why Adam and Eve was cast out.

That’s why he provided a saviour to redeem mankind before we was made and tempted. That’s why we are now adopted

In my own opinion. Brother

If you give me BS I want be offended . Lol



Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 04:47:59
Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the earth.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 04:49:55
he knew ....yes he did. He created man to love,  but also bring out the inequity that was found in the devil and the angels. He knew that mankind would fall, and he knew that the devil would tempt them. And  be tempted by them . There was 2 trees in the garden. Mankind was planted also in the garden to Bring out in the devil, who he really wanted to be. That was to be god. They joined with him and ate his fruit and became one with him. A new fathers seed now was in mankind. The bent to do wrong.  That is why we are born in inequity because he also became our father. The father of evil. That is why Adam and Eve was cast out.

That’s why he provided a saviour to redeem mankind before we was made and tempted. That’s why we are now adopted

In my own opinion. Brother

If you give me BS I want be offended . Lol
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 04:52:05
With regards to the several rhetorical questions here pertaining to Israel, and their special position...
Greetings Jarrod~These are not ask to be rhetorical just to get a dramatic effect but was asked to make a point and to get one to answer them in light of the scriptures so as to leave them without an excuse. Many places in the OT God does answer these questions to make his point to Israel for their lack of appreciation and obedience.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 14:33:39
Israel did receive a special election to act as a priesthood among nations.
I would not use the phrase "among nations" but above the nations~for their priesthood was only to be used within the nation of Israel and for them alone.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 14:33:39
But the opportunity of righteousness and salvation was ALSO given to ALL nations.
Where? Now God did show mercy to some outside of the nation of Israel, but they were few and far in between! I do not believe you really want to travel down this road. But if you desire to do so, we will.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 14:33:39
God's covenant with Noah contains the terms by which Gentiles might be considered righteous.
So also did the Abrahamic Covenant, ( much clearer ) yet, we see it fulfilled MAINLY in the NT, with a few exceptions in the OT.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 14:33:39
It isn't as though God just abandoned everyone but Israel to the pit.
Well, many he did, yet we ( at least, I do ) ALSO know that God regenerates without the means of the word of God, so with that understanding, there could have been millions born of God, yet did not have the benefit of having very much true knowledge of God~ the knowledge of the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises gives people who have the privilege, ( as we do living where we do ) knowledge, and with that privilege comes MORE responsibilities.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 05:00:51
WHOEVER was responsible for the fig newton should be applauded. ::geek::
that's just a fig newton of your imagination!   rofl
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 05:02:46
Quote from: Bemark on: Today at 04:49:55
If you give me BS I want be offended .
Mark it stands for Bachelor of Science ::smile::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 05:07:06
Lol
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 05:09:54
RB and all my brothers and sisters . 1 thing is I love . It’s throwing scripture back and forth and ideas . Learning from each other and getting excited in his word. This is awesome
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:24:45
Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the earth.
No, Jesus was crucified sometime around 33 AD.   God's plan which included Jesus' crucifixion was before the foundations of the earth.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:42:04
Pray like that in most churches today they just might show you the nearest door~for sure they would never ask you to pray again.
I am not sure what you intend there.  But who was Jesus praying about in John 17:  Specifically, in verse 6, who were they about whom Jesus said, (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word ?


Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:50:58
No, Jesus was crucified sometime around 33 AD.   God's plan which included Jesus' crucifixion was before the foundations of the earth.
[/quote His plan was before the sun and the moon was around. Why are we created? Was the result of our creation brought about the fall of the devil and those who left there Home? The angels who mated with females ?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Choir Loft on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:51:19
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....

Faith is the spiritual food given by God for the evidence of His Ruach ha-Kodesh in us (Holy Spirit).  It is the TRUST He gives us.  OBEY is what we do.

Again, faith/trust is the internal aspect, spiritual aspect, and mental discipline.   Obedience is the physical component, the action, the duty, the deed that expresses the internal persuasion granted by God.

As in the old hymn THERE IS NO OTHER WAY BUT TO TRUST AND OBEY.

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.


Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet,
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way;
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

song & lyrics by John H. Sammis 1887

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:53:53
No, Jesus was crucified sometime around 33 AD.   God's plan which included Jesus' crucifixion was before the foundations of the earth.
[/quote His plan was before the sun and the moon was around. Why are we created? Was the result of our creation brought about the fall of the devil and those who left there Home? The angels who mated with females ?
Sorry 4wd like normal I can’t get my posts right. It’s in blue ....sorry my friend
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 06:58:39
Ok 4 WD why did God need to have a plan in place to redeem mankind . Why if he knew it all. Redeem man from what ! Why create man then ?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:08:03
Faith is the spiritual food given by God for the evidence of His Ruach ha-Kodesh in us (Holy Spirit).  It is the TRUST He gives us.  OBEY is what we do.

Again, faith/trust is the internal aspect, spiritual aspect, and mental discipline.   Obedience is the physical component, the action, the duty, the deed that expresses the internal persuasion granted by God.
You have a screwed up (and non-biblical) concept of faith and trust.  To have faith is to believe in.  It is what we do.  It is not given to us; it is not a gift.  It is not spiritual food. To believe IN God is to believe God, i.e., mentally assent, and trust God.   I am not sure what you mean by spiritual food, but it is neither faith nor trust. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:08:27
No, Jesus was crucified sometime around 33 AD.   God's plan which included Jesus' crucifixion was before the foundations of the earth.
Revelation 13:8  KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:11:14
So they end up in hell? Did not he know there path Way before they was born.


Is God cruel 4WD?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:12:19
And God knows the end from the beginning.

Mo God is  NOT cruel unless one ascribes to Calvinistic thought, which I don’t. And as a pre-emptive statement, one does not have to call himself a Calvinist to ascribe to the error that Calvinism teaches. Same as one doesn’t have to call themself a Democrat to Svribe to the abominations they stand for such as abortion.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:15:00
NO!!  NO!!  NO!!  Your faith is not a substance.  Your faith is something you do  --  You believe in....
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:19:44
Yes Dave that is a characteristic of faith, but NOT evidence it is a gift.

We have not seen God, but we have assurance of him because of belief in and trust in God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:22:20
No, Jesus was crucified sometime around 33 AD.   God's plan which included Jesus' crucifixion was before the foundations of the earth.
Mark understands when Jesus was crucified~Yet the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, or, it was in the purpose and will of God from eternity, which will and purposed could not be defeated, so, that being said, it was a done deal THEN in one true biblical sense.

Let me ask you a question: "On WHAT GROUNDS could God walk with men BEFORE Jesus actually paid for their sins?" God cannot and will not fellowship with sinners! The doctrine of imputation is the only ground through which God can be reconciled to sinners before Jesus LEGALLY paid for our sins. Mine was legally paid for before I was born and BEFORE I believed!  OT saints were paid for legally before Christ died for their sins, YET, by Imputation, ALL of God's elect sins were covered by God's election of grace and his holy oath and promises BEFORE the foundation of the world. Need proof, glad you asked:
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 1:9~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Have more if you need more.   
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:23:09
Ok 4 WD why did God need to have a plan in place to redeem mankind . Why if he knew it all. Redeem man from what ! Why create man then ?
God had a plan to redeem mankind, because having created mankind with the free will to choose to obey or not obey, He knew that mankind would not obey, at least not perfectly.  Why He created mankind is an age old question with many answers and is probably a subject for another topic.  But I think it was fundamentally to establish the kingdom of heaven composed of human beings who would choose to love and obey him.  I think that free will is central to God's whole purpose of this physical creation.

If God's intention in creating this physical universe was to produce some human beings who were predestined to love and obey, why then did He not do that?  Why also create even more who were predestine to hate and disobey?  What purpose does that serve?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:29:35
And God knows the end from the beginning.

Mo God is  NOT cruel unless one ascribes to Calvinistic thought, which I don’t. And as a pre-emptive statement, one does not have to call himself a Calvinist to ascribe to the error that Calvinism teaches. Same as one doesn’t have to call themself a Democrat to Svribe to the abominations they stand for such as abortion.
do you think it’s cruel that animals eat other out from the anus up? Screaming in pain for hours  . This is just real life without religion or other thoughts. It’s down right mean . But it’s the world we live in.its horrible
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:32:32
God had a plan to redeem mankind, because having created mankind with the free will to choose to obey or not obey, He knew that mankind would not obey, at least not perfectly.  Why He created mankind is an age old question with many answers and is probably a subject for another topic.  But I think it was fundamentally to establish the kingdom of heaven composed of human beings who would choose to love and obey him.  I think that free will is central to God's whole purpose of this physical creation.

If God's intention in creating this physical universe was to produce some human beings who were predestined to love and obey, why then did He not do that?  Why also create even more who were predestine to hate and disobey?  What purpose does that serve?
thanks for your thoughts 4 WD  . I will think on these things over the next few days . Honour brother
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:38:16
Bemark, I sometimes experience getting my anus eat out at work. Yes it is horrible. ::eek::
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:39:07
Yes Dave that is a characteristic of faith, but NOT evidence it is a gift.
Quote from: Paul said that FAITH was GIVEN to us
Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
"For" in verse 29 EXPLAINS Paul's words when he said: of salvation, and that of God!

See folks later~ I'm off like a herd of turtles! I got some appointments.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:42:46
Mark understands when Jesus was crucified~Yet the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, or, it was in the purpose and will of God from eternity, which will and purposed could not be defeated, so, that being said, it was a done deal THEN in one true biblical sense.
RB, you have a real problem differentiating between the developing or creating a plan and the carrying out of the plan when considering God's workings .  I'll bet you do not have that same problem in the running of your business.  It comes probably again from your insistence on adherence to the KJV.

(KJV) Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(NASB) Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

(ESV) Rev 13:8  and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

(ASV) Rev 13:8  And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.


God's plan included the sacrifice of His Son.  God made that plan before He created the universe.  The carrying out of that plan occurred after He created the universe. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:48:39
Mark understands when Jesus was crucified~Yet the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, or, it was in the purpose and will of God from eternity, which will and purposed could not be defeated, so, that being said, it was a done deal THEN in one true biblical sense.

Let me ask you a question: "On WHAT GROUNDS could God walk with men BEFORE Jesus actually paid for their sins?" God cannot and will not fellowship with sinners! The doctrine of imputation is the only ground through which God can be reconciled to sinners before Jesus LEGALLY paid for our sins. Mine was legally paid for before I was born and BEFORE I believed!  OT saints were paid for legally before Christ died for their sins, YET, by Imputation, ALL of God's elect sins were covered by God's election of grace and his holy oath and promises BEFORE the foundation of the world. Need proof, glad you asked: Have more if you need more.   
bang on
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:51:52
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

(NASB) Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

(ASV) Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

(ESV) Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

(NIV) Heb 11:1  Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

(RV) Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of things not seen.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 07:57:49
4WD I have NO DOUBT in my head that you have substance in the word of God.  In your life . No doubt at all. You are a super strong brother in the Lord.

Is this a substance within your life.....yes it is. You could not be the one who you are without it.

There is a substance in your life , a faith . It is want propels you. We honour you for this and so respect you,,,sooo much . I do . I love you . I really do.

You don’t believe it do you . I love you  , we will hug each other in paradise .

I love you brother
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:02:02
Have more if you need more.   

2Ti 1:9  who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, His own purpose and grace is the plan put in place before times eternal. 

There are things that are so certain that, even though not yet accomplished in divine purposes, it might be said to be already done.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:18:19
"For" in verse 29 EXPLAINS Paul's words when he said: of salvation, and that of God!
The giving or granting is conditional.  I was given or granted a degree in mechanical engineering.  It took years of hard work to be given it.

Php 1:27  Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:20:02
I am going to give you a big hug  4WD
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:27:03
Was Jesus crucified before the foundation of the world or did God see his crucifiction from the beginning being he is outside of time? Hiw would the writer describe that other than they way they did?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:38:07
He was crucified to redeem mankind who exposed the devil and his angles
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:39:51
His plan
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:41:15
He was crucified to redeem mankind who exposed the devil and his angles

Obviously! but that doesn't answer my question as to being crucified since the foundation of the world. I think we agree on the why of his crucifixion, but when did it occur vs when did God SEE it? Actually living outside of time, God not only SEES the end from the beginning, he EXPERIENCES the past, present and future simultaneously! Or that's the best way I as a only a space and time being can explain it.

Same thing as our names being written in the book of life since the beginning. God sees dinosaurs and our names written in the lamb's book of life at the end of the ages simultaneously as the universe is spoken into existence.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:50:11
Was Jesus crucified before the foundation of the world or did God see his crucifixion from the beginning being he is outside of time? How would the writer describe that other than they way they did?
Since HE is God, and exists outside of time, the crucifixion had to take place outside of time also.  It was manifested into our time/space world circa 33 ad, but it was from eternity.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 08:54:09
God's plan was exactly how it played out. He saw or experienced it simultaneously with the first day of creation being outside of time. He's looking down with the beginning occurring simultaneously as the end of the ages, with everything else in between. The crucifixion of the Son of Man/God had to occur when God became a man in the body of Jesus. And yes God saw it or experienced it as he looked down on the panorama of time, I would say the Holy Spirit inspired writer(s) of scripture explained it pretty well in vernacular then. God knows the end from the beginning. Why does he know it, because he has already experienced it.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 09:23:23
He made a plan to remove evil form the kingdom forever . Trap it in time. If not evil is forever .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 09:50:15
Obviously! but that doesn't answer my question as to being crucified since the foundation of the world. I think we agree on the why of his crucifixion, but when did it occur vs when did God SEE it? Actually living outside of time, God not only SEES the end from the beginning, he EXPERIENCES the past, present and future simultaneously! Or that's the best way I as a only a space and time being can explain it.

Same thing as our names being written in the book of life since the beginning. God sees dinosaurs and our names written in the lamb's book of life at the end of the ages simultaneously as the universe is spoken into existence.
It happened when the Lord sore inequity was found in him.  Do you think he loves his angels? How could he sift them? Why would our word of God even then mention them ? What have we in common?

How does God know in man and angles who truly love him?  Some thoughts
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 11:11:35
God already won the battle or experienced it if he knows the end from the beginning.

We have in common with the angels, free will. If God didn't want a free will decision to love and obey him, why not create beings incapable of choosing evil and only good?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 13:08:06
I would not use the phrase "among nations" but above the nations~for their priesthood was only to be used within the nation of Israel and for them alone.
I am not referring to the Levitical priesthood (which was indeed only to Israel).  God's plan was that Israel should act as a priesthood among all the nations of the earth.  Observe:

Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Quote
But the opportunity of righteousness and salvation was ALSO given to ALL nations.
Where?
Genesis 9 (God's covenant with Noah and his sons), is considered the chief passage delineating what a gentile must do (or abstain from) to be considered righteous.  The covenant also contains promises of non-destruction.

Note that the New Testament confirms the Gen 9 rules rather explicitly (Acts 15).  When the apostle James there ruled on the dispute as to what standards Gentiles must hold to, he simply re-stated the standards that already existed:

Act 15:19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

If that isn't compelling to you, consider Abraham, who was considered righteous while yet a Gentile, and whose covenant with God is the basis for the salvation of the nations.  The Bible is quite explicit - Abram's covenant promise was that he should become a father unto the nations.  Jesus said that the true sons of Abraham are those who behave as Abraham did, their actions being a product of their faith (John 8).  Do you suppose that only became true after Jesus said it?  No, it was true from the point where the covenant began, way back in Genesis 15.

Now God did show mercy to some outside of the nation of Israel, but they were few and far in between! I do not believe you really want to travel down this road. But if you desire to do so, we will. So also did the Abrahamic Covenant, ( much clearer ) yet, we see it fulfilled MAINLY in the NT, with a few exceptions in the OT. Well, many he did, yet we ( at least, I do ) ALSO know that God regenerates without the means of the word of God, so with that understanding, there could have been millions born of God, yet did not have the benefit of having very much true knowledge of God~ the knowledge of the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises gives people who have the privilege, ( as we do living where we do ) knowledge, and with that privilege comes MORE responsibilities.
It appears our brains aren't too far apart - here you openly admit that there were some saved under Abraham's covenant even in the Old Testament.  And even that Israel was given extra responsibility.  Why do you not connect that extra responsibility with the idea of priesthood?

Note that the end state of the church is identical to the original purpose for Israel:

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation...

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 14:50:44
Jarrod, you've made some good points. The question is: If Abraham was righteous according to God BEFORE the Levitical law existed the why would one have to follow the Levitical law to be righteous before God, as God's law does not change but is eternal?

Abraham was not following the Levitical law. He was following another Law. Jesus was reestablishing that Law and rebuilding Israel as it was in the beginning in Abraham's faith(belief in a set of standards proclaimed by a specific God).

The trinity:
The Father: Abraham walked in the Spirit of God
.The Son: Jesus walked in the Spirit of God.
They were both one in the Holy Spirit of the same God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Fri Sep 18, 2020 - 21:28:20
God already won the battle or experienced it if he knows the end from the beginning.

We have in common with the angels, free will. If God didn't want a free will decision to love and obey him, why not create beings incapable of choosing evil and only good?
yes WHY NOT

Why not this and why not that. Why God . None need to go to hell. Why not after all , it’s your desire.

So  in us says why? Even we can’t figure it out if we are honest. We come up with ....well everyone has a choice.

But God why did you give them a choice.Answer .... Because he didn’t want robots.

Then we go, so because YOU didn’t want robots YOU created people to have free will KNOWING some would not choose you.

Then we have to contend with .....is God cruel. I can go into fine detail on how God is cruel, because he allows this and that to happen. He made it this way. If I’m brutal and honest about it . God you could have manifested 10 angels to everyone so the whole world would believe and be saved. He does not do that. Animals eat each other alive.  I know we are not in Eden.

That’s my faith in what I believe in. I see it every day

BUT and it’s a big but ......I now know that God is kind and loving . I can’t escape it. Even when others Says things or my mind thinks Stuff. I come back to I know him and he is good.

This is Christ’s faith in me that has saved me , and has kept me when the world is cruel towards me. I see the evil in Me and this world And I just can’t blame God for it. I know he could make the sun to shine everyday and the wind to never howl.

He dosent . My faith in me and this world of good and evil, is over ridden by his faith living in me. Even though I see evil,  bad stuff.    I Know he is good. That’s why the world doesn’t understand us. It’s a walk of faith. You just know , even when our eyes and ears see and hear evil. We know he is kind.

Lots wife could be saying , just curse God and die. You just can’t because of the faith within you. The faith of Jesus Christ. My faith can be stripped from my life. His will always remain .

His ways are higher than our ways and one day it will just make sense.





Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 04:09:32
He doesn't . My faith in me and this world of good and evil is overridden by his faith living in me. Even though I see evil, bad stuff, I Know he is good. That’s why the world doesn’t understand us. It’s a walk of faith. You just know, even when our eyes and ears see and hear evil. We know he is kind.
::thumbup:: ::thumbup:: Good testimony Mark.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 05:18:17
I am not referring to the Levitical priesthood (which was indeed only to Israel).  God's plan was that Israel should act as a priesthood among all the nations of the earth. 
Brother, I know you were not, but I respectfully disagree with you that Israel was made, or was to act as a priesthood among all the nations of the earth~maybe only to the Jews who lived in other nations since the days when they were taken captives first by the Assyrian , the northern kingdoms, then the southern two kingdoms by the
Babylonians
~other than that I know of no scriptures which would support that theory~maybe you can show me.
Quote
Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
I would not take that to mean "AMONG, or FOR" other nations. Now, I would agree like Israel of old, we SHOULD pray for the leaders of the nation where we live so we can live a peaceable life in all godliness, pray for our leaders and those around us that we know, etc. so, in this sense, I'm sure we will agree. But the truth is, most people TRULY do not know us to be who we really are and truly care very much about it. IF they truly knew and knew more about us base on the word of God we would have the Paparazzi following us every step we took...but I rather have the Spirit of God and his angels round about me.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:15~"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
God's children have the spiritual INSIGHT to judge all things in their TRUE LIGHT, yet we ourselves are not judge ( TRUE judgment ) concerning whom we TRULY ARE!
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 13:08:06
Genesis 9 (God's covenant with Noah and his sons), is considered the chief passage delineating what a gentile must do (or abstain from) to be considered righteous.
While I agree that God's covenants made in the OT~bascially the covenant of GRACE, or, the Everlasting God made with Christ, yet in time revealed gradually to Noah, Abraham, and then David with each revelation given adding more to the nature of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace that God purposed to do through his Son the true promised seed, he being the head and we the members of his elect body.

I disagree there was ANYTHING they had to DO in order to be part of the Covenant of Grace but WOULD agree FAITH was the ONLY system God chose for his elect to live under in BOTH testaments to prove their election, and calling of God.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 13:08:06
If that isn't compelling to you, consider Abraham, who was considered righteous while yet a Gentile, and whose covenant with God is the basis for the salvation of the nations.  The Bible is quite explicit - Abram's covenant promise was that he should become a father unto the nations.  Jesus said that the true sons of Abraham are those who behave as Abraham did, their actions being a product of their faith (John 8).  Do you suppose that only became true after Jesus said it?  No, it was true from the point where the covenant began, way back in Genesis 15.
Brother, you are right and I would not disagree with you~True sons of Abraham are those who, WORKETH NOT, but believe in God's provision for their ETERNAL SALVATION in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4: 1-5~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise and he left not knowing where he was going. Abraham was not LEGALLY justified by works in any sense whatsoever, if so, then he could have glory in HIS FLESH, but not before God. All Abraham had to offer was FAITH in believing in God that FIRST appear to him and called him out of and form among his heathen forefathers and the false gods they worshipped.

WHAT DID ABRAHAM BELIEVED:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:56-58~Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Abraham believed and trusted the same word that we all do~that JESUS CHRIST IS OUR SURETY BEFORE THE LAW OF GOD, and by his faith, obedience and righteousness we SINNERS are made righteous in his sight BY IMPUTATION according to the will of God. The system we live under to ENJOY this great blessing of grace is FAITH, it does not come through our works! Abraham's faith is what was accounted or gave EVIDENCE that he was a righteous man~he certainly had not one thing to offer God BEFORE God came to him and called him out from among his people.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Isaiah 51:2~"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
May the Spirit of God bless all of his people with true understanding of his word for Jesus' sake. All of God's people said AMEN!   
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 08:45:02
The trinity: The Father: Abraham walked in the Spirit of God,  The Son: Jesus walked in the Spirit of God. They were both one in the Holy Spirit of the same God.
We have other threads dealing with the Godhead you can take this there~But you would need to do your homework much better than this statement.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 09:06:33
accounted or gave EVIDENCE
TWISTED TEXT.  You continue to twist and distort the biblical text in order that it agree with your false theology.  Abraham's belief in God, his faith, was reckoned to him for righteousness.  Righteousness was imputed, reckoned, accounted to Abraham because he believed in God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 12:49:51
We have other threads dealing with the Godhead you can take this there~But you would need to do your homework much better than this statement.

I feel that my post is relevant to the discussion at hand since we are talking about Christ's faith or our faith. It was Abraham's faith in and obedience to the words of a  specific God that accounted him righteous. It was not Jesus' faith as you see it. Jesus had faith in the same God as Abraham. You believe in a God that demands perfection. Another may have faith in a God that demands animal sacrifices etc.etc. there are many different faiths. Jesus' faith=Abraham's faith. they were one in the same faith. God did give Abraham a son, Isaac, to carry on his faith. After Isaac there was Jacob and so on and so forth. Jesus was a continuation of Abraham's faith. However, you see it differently and that is fine. God has given us all the free will to believe what we want to believe.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 13:07:07
Jesus' faith=Abraham's faith.
If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 13:17:18
As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise.....
Where do you read that?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 19, 2020 - 14:05:48
The “faith of Christ” is the gift of faith ORIGINATING FROM CHRIST as its source of that gift.  Once given to an individual who begins to exercise that faith, it then can be described and truly spoken of as “the faith of Abraham”, for example.

Here’s an example:  If a parent owns a house, and then bequeaths that house as an inheritance to their son or daughter, that house can then be truly spoken of as the house belonging to the son or daughter after that point.  But we know that the house was originally a gift possessed by the parent to be given - or not - at their discretion. 

The semantics are where much of the confusion lies...

John 6:28-29 illustrates the concept I’m describing.  “Then said they unto him, What shall *WE* DO, that we might work the WORKS OF GOD?  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF *GOD*, that YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent.”  All credit for the actual performance of that belief originated as a work of God instilling belief in that person to begin with. 

To the outward observer, that act of belief tends to be mainly associated with the one they see visibly exercising that gift of belief.  But we should never forget that “every good gift, and every perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights...”
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 06:26:45
Wrong! Their question was "what must we do.....".  That question was in response to Jesus telling them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life...."  Jesus' answer to their question of what must the do was that they must work and that work was "that you believe in him whom he has sent."

To believe in Him is to have faith in Him.  That is what faith is.  There is nothing in Jesus' answer that says anything about faith as a gift.  Clearly Jesus' says that it is work, something that they must do; and they no doubt understood that it was not a gift, but was something that they had to do.  And there is nothing in Jesus' answer that contradicts anything that Paul had to say.  Paul does tell us where that faith comes from; it comes from "hearing the word about Jesus Christ"(Rom 10:17).

Your confusion, if there is any, is in what faith in God is.  And that is semantics; specifically the meaning of the English word faith as being somehow different from believing in God.  Faith in God is believing in God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:24:08
Hey 4WD,

When Christ said in John 6:29 that “This is the work OF GOD...”, He meant that their belief in Him was CREDITED TO GOD.  He was underscoring the fact that their belief in God was a work instigated by God Himself, and not them.

This is consistent with all the rest of scripture.  Like the example of Lydia, “whose heart THE *LORD* OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul” (Acts 16:14).

Like the text of Proverbs 20:12, “The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, THE LORD hath made even both of them.”  In a list given of virtues and vices, this Proverb credits the ability to spiritually “hear” and to “see” as the work of God making that ability to apprehend spiritual things. 

Another couple verses in this Proverbs 20 chapter remind me very much of the way you post on this subject, 4WD.  Verse 6 says “Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness...”. To credit yourself with originating the ability to first believe on Christ is to “proclaim your own goodness”.  Many on this forum do the same, which this Proverbs 20:6 verse readily acknowledges as a widespread problem.

Proverbs 20:9 asks the rhetorical question, “Who can say *I* have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?”  The obvious intended response is that NO ONE can declare that they can originate the cleansing of their own heart.  This cleansing must be originated by an outward agency, independent of the individual, or it will never get done. 

A new car engine can be cranked all day long, but unless someone has put gas in the tank to begin with, that car ain’t going anywhere.  And that car never fuels itself. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 07:44:46
Hey 4WD,

When Christ said in John 6:29 that “This is the work OF GOD...”, He meant that their belief in Him was CREDITED TO GOD.  He was underscoring the fact that their belief in God was a work instigated by God Himself, and not them.
Hey 3 Res,

That is not what He said at all.  And it certainly is not what He meant.  His answer was a direct response to their question. And their question was not about something CREDITED TO GOD. Their question was about what THEY MUST DO. Jesus answered their question with what THEY MUST DO.  That was made even clearer later when Jesus said, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst (v.35).

It is really too bad that given the importance of faith in God, you do not even understand what faith is and how one comes to have faith in God.  It is not a gift, it is in fact a work.  It is not a work of Law, but it is a work; Jesus said so.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: yogi bear on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:09:48
 ::eatingpopcorn: ::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

+1
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:48:31
To credit yourself with originating the ability to first believe on Christ is to “proclaim your own goodness”.  Many on this forum do the same, which this Proverbs 20:6 verse readily acknowledges as a widespread problem.
Yes the ability to believe, of course, originates with God.  That ability is inherent in the creation of man.  Whether one actually believes and/or believes in anything, including God, is at the discretion of each individual.  The individual, not God, decides who or what he believes and believes in.  If it were up to God, then absolutely everyone would believe Him and believe in Him.  That should be obvious to anyone with a correct understanding of who and what God is and what God created when He created man.  Unfortunately, you and too many others, apparently do not understand any of that.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 08:58:20
AND no need for the Great Commission. And John 3:16 would have to be revised.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 09:38:01
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?  As I’ve been trying to present this, it’s BOTH.

Paul expresses this in terms of BOTH / AND in Philippians 2:12-13.  “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.  FOR” (here Paul explains just how their performance of that work is even possible) “It is *GOD* WHICH WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure.”

In this passage, Paul gives credit to GOD as originating the inclination as well as the actual performance of acts done by the obedient saints that are pleasing to God.  (Just like Jesus credited the work of belief to God in John 6:29, counter to what His audience was thinking was their own works.)  If this is true of the living saints even AFTER being regenerated by God, then it is also true of their condition BEFORE that regeneration.

4WD, I totally understand the gut reaction against crediting God instead of ourselves with our ability to act in faith.  I myself am an old independent cuss that resents having decisions made for me.  Even as a believer, the verse I once HATED to read - and I mean REALLY HAAAAATED - was Psalms 47:2-4.  It says “For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.  He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.  HE SHALL CHOOSE OUR INHERITANCE FOR US, the excellency of Jacob which he loved.  Selah.”

My total resentment was that God chose my own inheritance for me without consulting me as to whether I wanted my life circumstances to turn out the way they did.  Because, even by acting in trustful faith with full efforts at trying to please God, my marriage turned absolutely ugly for about 20 years.   Such despair I would not wish on my worst enemy - to feel that the very heavens are turned against you, and that God had specifically CHOSEN this as my inheritance.  And yes, while immersed in the middle of it, I railed against the Almighty for planning this for me.   

On the other side of emerging from the worst of this situation, upon calmer reflection I have been able to see exactly why God determined this course for my life.  Believe it or not, I have been able with tears of actual gratitude to thank God and praise Him for His plan for my life, though I would not have chosen it for myself if given the chance.

It is fear of being powerless that makes us want to grab the reins in an effort to control our own destiny - either before or after our regeneration to life.  Such fear does not act in full trust of the Creator.

“Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 13:19:03
If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?

4WD, yes. Jesus had faith in these words:Isaiah 58:6-14 "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke. Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to the house your poor who are cast out; when you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh? THEN your light shall break break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS shall go before you; the glory of the lord shall be your rear guard. THEN you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, "Here I am". If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness. ........................................


Hebrews 5:5-9 " Christ did not glorify Himself.....It was (God) who said to Him: "You are my Son, today I have begotten You." and "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."

verse 7: (Christ) who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to ( God) who was able to save him from death, and was heard BECAUSE of His Godly fear, Verse 8 though He was a Son , yet he learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9; And having been perfected ( declared righteous according to the standards of the One True God) , He became the author of salvation to all who obey Him."

There is very little said about Abraham in the Bible that we use. However, other faiths tell stories about him. It seems that both Abraham and Jesus believed in and followed the Law of reciprocity, "Which can be clearly seen and understood by the things that are made."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 13:56:31
Where do you read that?
Just got back from out of town, I'll answer your posts in the morning~I'm tired from traveling on a very busy I-85 from North of Atlanta, Georiga to Greenville, S.C.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 14:46:20
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?  As I’ve been trying to present this, it’s BOTH.
Why?  Because faith is not a gift.  The abilities to hear, to think, to understand, to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.  Doing any of them is not a gift; it is something we do.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 14:50:17
If Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness and if Jesus' faith equals Abraham's faith then for what was Jesus' faith credited to him?  Righteousness? ? ? ?
4WD, yes.
No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 16:28:43
Technically speaking, 4WD, I can agree with the way you expressed your last comment:

“The abilities to hear, to think, to understand,  to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.”  That’s very true of the original creation of mankind in Eden, but ESPECIALLY OF THE *NEW* CREATION Paul spoke of in II Cor. 5:17.  “So that if anyone be in Christ, there is a NEW CREATION: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things.  And all things are OF GOD, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.” Man does not really have the ability to “create” something out of nothing.  That ability to create ex nihilo is uniquely “OF GOD”, especially in salvation’s sense of the “New Creation”.

Here’s one more text example illustrating on the one hand man’s duty to exercise works of faith, as well as pointing out on the other hand how God originated that faith to begin with.  Paul covered this subject with the Corinthians in I Cor. 4:2-7.  “Moreover, it is REQUIRED in stewards that a man be found FAITHFUL.”  God has a right to expect His servants to work out acts of faithfulness.  And in the judgment of rewards for the righteous, whether we may have performed little or much, God most generously promises that “...then shall EVERY MAN have praise from God.” (v. 5).  God is not unrighteous to forget our work and labor of love...(Heb. 6:10).

Paul then cautioned the Corinthians against comparing men and their accomplishments with each other, with a most convicting question; “For who made thee to differ from another? AND WHAT HAST THOU THAT THOU DIDST NOT RECEIVE?”  The obvious conclusion to this rhetorical question meant that there was NOTHING good that had not been GIVEN to them of which they could boast.  Paul then asked them, “Now if thou didst receive it, WHY DOST THOU GLORY AS IF THOU HADST NOT RECEIVED IT?”

These same convicting questions in I Cor. 4:7 can be asked of anyone claiming credit for themselves in being a “new creation” in salvation.  If we, like the Corinthian believers, have nothing which we did not receive, then why should we glory as if we had not received it?

I cannot even draw my next breath to speak words of faith without God sustaining for me the breath of life in my lungs.  “In him we live and move and have our being.”  And yet in the final judgment, God will still offer words of praise to every one of us for what He assisted us to accomplish.  Unfathomable generosity.

 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 19:21:12
Technically speaking, 4WD, I can agree with the way you expressed your last comment:

“The abilities to hear, to think, to understand,  to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His creation.”  That’s very true of the original creation of mankind in Eden, but ESPECIALLY OF THE *NEW* CREATION Paul spoke of in II Cor. 5:17.  “So that if anyone be in Christ, there is a NEW CREATION: the old things passed away; lo, have become new all things.  And all things are OF GOD, who reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.” Man does not really have the ability to “create” something out of nothing.  That ability to create ex nihilo is uniquely “OF GOD”, especially in salvation’s sense of the “New Creation”.
Yes but unlike the false theology of Calvinism and Reformed Theology, the new creation is an act of God on the believer, not vice versa.  The IF-THEN construction of verse 17 makes that clear enough for anyone willing to take Paul's words for what he says.  And I prefer the interpretation of the Greek ktisis as creature, not creation.  I will update what I said there as, “The abilities to hear, to think, to understand, to choose, to believe are gifts of God in His ORIGINAL creation of mankind.”  All of those qualities and abilities are present within mankind generally, except for the very young or the mentally deficient; they are not changed in making the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins alive together with Christ.  The new creature, the new man, is one regenerated.  Same spirit, just regenerated.  The sins making him spiritually dead are forgiven and he is declared righteous making him spiritually alive again.
Quote
I cannot even draw my next breath to speak words of faith without God sustaining for me the breath of life in my lungs.  “In him we live and move and have our being.”
That is a nice sentiment, but I I don't that it is strictly and literally true.  And to the extent that it is true, it can be said only for the one who has been saved and so doesn't have application to the question in the OP.

But I do appreciate your thoughts as you presented them there.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Sep 20, 2020 - 23:36:35
I respectfully disagree with you that Israel was... to act as a priesthood among all the nations of the earth... I know of no scriptures which would support that theory~maybe you can show me.
I've got plenty of Scripture in my back pocket, but quoting it back and forth (and usually out-of-context) isn't persuasive.  Let's start with a question, instead (and I think the Scripture will creep in as we answer it):

Do you think that the NT Church was meant to hold such a position?

I would answer in the affirmative... verses like ye-are-the-salt-of-the-world, and ye-are-the-light-of-the-world leave little doubt.  Salt isn't eaten alone, it seasons the whole meal.  A light isn't lit just to be hid under the metaphorical bushel.

So, then, seeing that the NT church was meant to act as a priesthood to all mankind, I would argue that Israel first occupied that position.  Further, the church occupies it because she is functioning in the capacity meant for Israel. 

Not to belabor the point, but the verses I quoted before make the point best:

Exodus 19:6  And ye [Israel] shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.

In case it isn't evident, Peter is quoting Moses.  The verbiage is the same... priesthood... holy nation.  The position Peter gives the Church is the same position Moses gave Israel.

But don't let it rest on two verses.  Read all of 1Peter 2.  I think you will find that the thesis of the chapter is that the church is meant to MODEL the behavior God desires from the world.

I may respond to the rest of your post later, but I'm stopping here for now.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:01:11
No, bel, and none of the verses you posted said or even implied that Jesus had faith in God or that it was credited to Him for anything.

4WD, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but on this point we differ. Yes, Jesus had faith which is what we are discussing, "the faith of Christ". Jesus believed in something or someone. He served as an example of the kind of faith that we should all have, complete trust and faith in God. "And He ( Christ) was heard because of His Godly fear." As Proverbs 14:26 says " In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence ( faith, trust)."

" And having been perfected He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
James 2:22-23 is speaking about Abraham but it is the same way in which Jesus was perfected ( righteous according to the One True God), faith and works.
22 'Do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect? "And the scripture was fulfilled which says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jesus believed in the words of Isaiah. He believed in "Love your neighbor as yourself." and he lived by these words.

In saying Jesus faith=Abraham's faith, I mean that they believed in the same God and in the same word of God.
For example, the Catholic faith is not equal to the Protestant faith. Tom may belong to the Catholic faith while Jim is a member of the Protestant faith. Tom's faith is not equal to Jim's faith. Now if Jim were a Catholic then Tom's faith = Jim's faith because they both believe in what the Catholic Church teaches as God's word.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:17:48


So, then, seeing that the NT church was meant to act as a priesthood to all mankind, I would argue that Israel first occupied that position.  Further, the church occupies it because she is functioning in the capacity meant for Israel. 

Not to belabor the point, but the verses I quoted before make the point best:

Exodus 19:6  And ye [Israel] shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.

But don't let it rest on two verses.  Read all of 1Peter 2.  I think you will find that the thesis of the chapter is that the church is meant to MODEL the behavior God desires from the world.

I may respond to the rest of your post later, but I'm stopping here for now.

Jarrod

Jarrod, again you've made some good points. It was the priesthood of Melchizedek  that Abraham followed, not the Levitical law. Hebrews 5:6 says "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 03:26:43
I've got plenty of Scripture in my back pocket, but quoting it back and forth (and usually out-of-context) isn't persuasive.  Let's start with a question, instead (and I think the Scripture will creep in as we answer it):
I would love to consider this particular subject here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/is-the-'great-commission'-for-the-nt-church-today/ but not here in this thread. I desire to keep this one on its proper track~but it is hard, even for me.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 04:31:05
Quote from: RB
As far as Abraham's FLESH (free will, etc) He DID NOT find God, nor did he seek after God, he was VERY CONTENDED  serving his fleshly lust UNTIL God came and called him ALONE out from his father's house to go unto the land of promise...
Where do you read that?
Yeah, I don't remember the Bible supplying much detail about Abraham's early life, either.

This also doesn't match Jewish tradition.  Traditionally, Abram's father Terah as an idol-maker by trade.  Abraham, seeing that the idols were nothing but wood or stone, grows up to become an iconoclast in opposition to his family.  Or so the story goes.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 05:13:30
It was the priesthood of Melchizedek that Abraham followed, not the Levitical law.
It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 07:00:25
Why must this be a choice of EITHER / OR when it comes to a question of whether this is a gift or a work?
Because of a misunderstanding of the term "work" by rabid antinomians.  They define anything and everything as a "work" to be avoided.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 13:27:33
It's a little odd to think of Abraham employing a priest.  As nearly as I can tell, there was no mediator between God and Abraham at all, they spoke face to face.  As the chief of his clan, Abram WAS the mediator for his people. He negotiated a covenant with God on his own behalf.

Yet, Abraham acknowledges Melchizedek as his superior, and gives him the tithe, even though he is not listed as one of the kings that allied themselves with Abraham.

Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.

I think at that time, it was the normal belief that God only speaks to certain people and THEY tell you what God says. As the people told Moses " Do not let God speak to us lest we die. "But the God Abraham believed in was different. This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says. "The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it."

Although there is little to be said about Abraham in the Bible, it is apparent that the Ten Commandments were known. These all fall under the category of loving your neighbor as yourself- the Law of reciprocity.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 14:03:21
Many consider Melchizedek to be a "theophany" or "christophany."  That means that He was the pre-incarnate Messiah who appeared to Abe.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 15:36:03
Jarrod, I agree. To clarify my words a little better, Abraham and Melchizedek believed in the same God. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God." Abraham's faith=Melchizedek's faith=Jesus' faith all being one in the same Spirit of God.
Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the garce of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel, which is not another, for there's only one taught in the holy scriptures that exalts one man, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

The comparison of Melchizedek and Jesus Christ is a wonderful subject but is not part of this discussion. Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy. Yet we can discuss this in a separate thread. if someone desires to start one.
Quote from:  bel on: Today at 13:27:33
This God gave all men intelligent minds that can think for themselves and are capable of knowing what God says.
Two things: All men are not on the same intelligent levels~above that.....coming to a true biblical knowledge of God, is a gift form heaven, it does not come through the will of the flesh or the will of man having some special powers/gifts whereby they can reveal God to a person~it come through divine revelation from the Spirit of God!
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:17-20~"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
One more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Maybe one more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 23:27:29



Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the garce of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness. To believe otherwise is to embrace another gospel, which is not another, for there's only one taught in the holy scriptures that exalts one man, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Quote
From bel: James 2:22-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that that faith was working together with his works, and by works (Abraham's) faith was made perfect?
Quote
From bel:God said to Abraham : walk before Me and be blameless and I will make you exceedingly fruitful and I will make YOUR name great.
Two things: All men are not on the same intelligent levels~above that.....coming to a true biblical knowledge of God, is a gift form heaven, it does not come through the will of the flesh or the will of man having some special powers/gifts whereby they can reveal God to a person~it come through divine revelation from the Spirit of God!



Quote
From bel: Romans 1:19-20 " Because what may be known of God is manifest in them,for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made."

"The word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart that you may obey it."

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:01:47
Many consider Melchizedek to be a "theophany" or "christophany."  That means that He was the pre-incarnate Messiah who appeared to Abe.
Many do... but it appears to be based on a bad reading of Hebrews.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:10:54
 As Scripture says Abraham wasn't the father of "seeds" as of many, but one "seed".
This means that Abraham was not the father of the Jewish faith. He wasn't the father of the Islamic faith, nor the Catholic faith, the Protestant faith etc.etc. It is impossible for Abraham to be the father of ALL these different faiths.He was the father of ONE faith in one God and one word- The Golden Rule, which was same faith as that of Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:11:36
Both Melchizedek, and Abraham, had no faith apart from the grace of God given on the behalf of Jesus' perfect faith, obedience and righteousness.
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying.  Can you re-write that sentence using only words in the vernacular?  Just pretend I'm a small child as you explain.

Otherwise, it looks like you're saying Abraham had no faith, which obviously isn't right, and can't be the point, so I'm misunderstanding.

Jesus Christ being Melchizedek in a pre-incarnate form is heresy.
I agree.  That's some bad theology.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:15:37
He was the father of one faith in one God and one word- The Golden Rule, which was same faith as that of Jesus Christ.
I've seen you come back to the Golden Rule several times, and each time, I want to add the other commandment which stands beside it in the New Testament:

Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart

Between the two, we have the whole Law and Prophets.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 00:30:55
I've seen you come back to the Golden Rule several times, and each time, I want to add the other commandment which stands beside it in the New Testament:

Love the Lord your GOd with all your heart

Between the two, we have the whole Law and Prophets.

From bel: true. But I suppose if you do not love your neighbor as yourself, you wouldn't be loving God either.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 04:26:25
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying. 
Greetings Jarroh, I can truly understand how you would say I'm using jargon words, when if I was speaking five hundred to even 250 years ago, all serious bible theologians would know, whether or not they agree is a different story.  http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/JustificationbyChristAloneSR.htm written around five hundred years ago. Also, one written around three hundred years ago:  https://libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm  so, it was once the main doctrine that they engage in to exalt as the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, now, very few have ever consider this blessed truths. Being an avid reader of religious books I have read much of the past history of mainly the protestant movement and the main voices behind that movement and the main teachings from 1400 to where we are now. So sad to see the doctrine of justification almost lost in the masses of false religions now covering this world.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 00:11:36
Can you re-write that sentence using only words in the vernacular?  Just pretend I'm a small child as you explain.
You are far from being a child, I would put you right along the side of 4WD in being very gifted, yet we all can be a little child when it comes to many different doctrines, ideologies, etc. I'm more so than most, for if you get me out of debating religions, then you most likely would be using many jargon words that would have very little meaning to me~the truth be told, I'm a simple person outside of this bubble.

Instead of re-writing in a vernacular language where the modern man can grasp, please at your convenience read one of the two articles above~preferring Samuel Richardson, but either are very good. What I will do is persue the life of Abraham and the timeline of when God's words said:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Maybe tomorrow, if not later today.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 04:51:51
James 2:22-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that that faith was working together with his works, and by works (Abraham's) faith was made perfect?
Quote from: James
James 2:23~"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Abraham’s trust in God’s promise secured a preliminary declaration of his righteousness (Genesis 15:6). God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness was confirmed by his actions on Moriah (Genesis 22:12). Abraham was called the friend of God as a result of his faithful actions (2nd Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8). Please remember Abraham was a just and righteous man,  living by faith, long before he got to Genesis 15:6~people seem to conveniently overlook this truth...... It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.
Quote from: James
James 2:24~"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
What can we see from Abraham’s history? The real evidence proving righteousness requires works. What we see is that Genesis 15:6 is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without Gen 22:12! Those who cry, “Sola Fide,” and think that Genesis 15:6 is the end of justification are wrong. Abraham’s subjective justification by faith was made complete or perfect by his further works. Justification is being declared righteous by God: Abraham was declared so by faith and works. It is vain confidence to trust in some belief, decision, or profession of Jesus without good works. Abraham’s actual justification, or acceptance and acquittal with God, was by Christ! James did not teach justification by the works that Paul condemned, or the Bible lies (2nd Peter 1:20). Paul rejected Jewish legalists and their trust in Moses’ law by teaching the historical fact of God’s declaration of Abraham’s righteousness by virtue of his great act of faith (Genesis 15:6). James taught that any man’s faith without works was not nearly, justification, or the hope of future glorification.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 07:35:00
It is one of the travesties of Bible interpretation to hear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 in any other way that God declaring his faith in an impossible promise as evidence of his righteousness.
One of the travesties of Bible interpretation is changing the very clear meaning of a verse such as Genesis 15:6 by inserting words or thoughts which are not there.  There is absolutely no way to accurately interpret that verse except that Abraham was justified, i.e., declared righteous, because he believed in God.  That is one of the key messages of the entire Bible. It is stated again and again, especially in the NT.   There is not even an inkling of the faith of Abraham being evidence of anything. Think whatever you want, but that verse says that "He (God) counted it (Abraham believed in the LORD) to him for righteousness."

The clarity of that simple truth was echoed by Paul in Romans 4:3 in an almost word for word repeating of Genesis 15:6.  And there again, it is obvious in its clarity. It is worthwhile to follow down a couple of verses there in Romans 4 where Paul says in verse 5 that "his (Abraham's) faith is counted for righteousness". Paul goes on through that chapter to discuss Abraham's faith and capped it off with 'He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it (Abraham's strong faith) was imputed to him for righteousness" (vv 20-22). Here being "fully persuaded" is the equivalent of "believing in". Paul follows that immediately with the application of the truth of our faith being reckoned to us for righteousness stating that  "it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (vv. 23-25).

As if that were not enough, Paul immediately states in the very next two verses "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom 5:1-2).   And given the discussion in the chapter four, it is, without question, our faith that Paul is speaking of.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 09:49:29
4WD, keep going just a couple verses later from Romans 5:1-2 with its “being justified by faith” to Romans 5:9.  “Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY *HIS BLOOD*, we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH *HIM*” (not through us).

Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness, true, but that is not a statement saying that it MADE him righteous to begin with.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 10:38:26
4WD, keep going just a couple verses later from Romans 5:1-2 with its “being justified by faith” to Romans 5:9.  “Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY *HIS BLOOD*, we shall be saved from wrath THROUGH *HIM*” (not through us).
Yes, most certainly.  But that is only for those who believe in God.

Quote
Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness, true, but that is not a statement saying that it MADE him righteous to begin with.
I have never said, implied, suggested, or even hinted that faith made anyone righteous.  We are not made righteous by anything or anyone or even God.  Yet because we believe in Him, God imputes His righteousness to us.

Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 01:36:51
Greetings Jarroh
Jarrod.  If you're going to use my name, please get it right.

Instead of re-writing in a vernacular language where the modern man can grasp, please at your convenience read one of the two articles above~preferring Samuel Richardson, but either are very good.
So... instead of elucidating, we're further obfuscating?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation.

I did give Sam Richardson a short try, and found that the definition of justification on the first page is already wrong-headed by my reckoning.  Frankly, I'm not much interested in what Sam thinks, and I quit on him right there.

Can you not just put it in simple words?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:31:19
Jarrod.  If you're going to use my name, please get it right.
Sorry about your name.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 01:36:51
So... instead of elucidating, we're further obfuscating?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation.
It is you, and most others of the twenty first century. Most in our days are too use of hearing twenty-five minutes sermons, of story telling and jokes and they call that teaching/preaching, etc. Maybe not you personally, but the sad state of the overall churches throughout this world.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 01:36:51
but I don't think reading a doctoral thesis should be a pre-req to having this conversation
Of course it is not, but since you said:
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
You've managed to use 5 jargon words in one sentence - faith (twice), grace, perfect, and righteousness.  I have no idea what you're saying.
I gave links to what the men of God ( could have given many, many more ) taught and believe in~not just men here and there, BUT CHURCHES throughout Europe and many of the first people who came to America in 1500 to 1600 hundred~I KNOW, I have personally visited certain places and saw first hand exactly what they taught ( by searching in their archives ) the people! From Georgetown S.C. to Jamestown Virginia, all the way up to Maine~PARTICLUAR BAPTIST that first settlers here taught exactly the doctrine of Justification through Christ's faith ALONE, that Samuel Richardson other Baptist churches taught in England~I provided just two links because you said: I have no idea what you're saying....Well, you should have at least known where I was coming from if you had a little knowledge of the church's history outside of the bia RCC history.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
I did give Sam Richardson a short try, and found that the definition of justification on the first page is already wrong-headed by my reckoning.
It does not surprise me that you would disagree since you have never even considered the subject ( maybe never even heard of it ) in light of the old paths that men of God taught the people post 1800! Since then has gone down hill especially even more so since 1900 with the birth of the lying Charismatic movement with their lying signs and wonders that have taken the place of preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 00:11:36
Can you not just put it in simple words?
Jarrod, I will try in my forthcoming posts.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 04:50:15
Jarrod, give us 4 non-jargon words to compare to Red’s jargon words. i would submit that most of our language consists of jargon words to somebody.

How would you present the gospel and not use the Jargon words Red did or the many others?

Also would elucidating and obfuscating be jargon words as well?

It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 05:23:56
Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.

 James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 14:18:37
Jarrod, give us 4 non-jargon words to compare to Red’s jargon words. I would submit that most of our language consists of jargon words to somebody.
It's more likely to replace them with a phrase than a single word, but the challenge is interesting, so why not?

In place of grace (χάρις), the modern word charitable fits the basic meaning.  It's an adjective rather than a noun, so you probably have to play with the sentence a bit, or else resign yourself to the clunky-yet-understandable word charitableness.  Bonus - it's the etymological descendant of the Greek word actually used in the Bible.

In place of perfect (τέλειος), let's use mature or complete.  Modern English has made perfect to mean unblemished, which is not the meaning of the word as it is used in the Bible.

In place of faith (πίστις) or believe (πιστεύω), let's use trust or rely/reliance.  Modern English has the word believe as indicating intellectual assent, where the Biblical word is explicitly more than this.

Justification (dikaioō) is tricky, as it has more than one meaning, depending on context.  Where the Greek verb is passive, it could be easily replaced with acquitted or vindicated.  As an active verb, the word defend is more appropriate.  As a noun, the word has retained its English meaning (the reason for acquittal) and works just fine - except that the regular vernacular meaning is usually not what theologians mean when they use the word.

How would you present the gospel and not use the Jargon words Red did or the many others?
First we'd have to agree on what the gospel is, which I've found over the years is more contentious than one would expect.  I'm skipping this question because I think it will sidetrack the conversation.

Also would elucidating and obfuscating be jargon words as well?
No.  Jargon are words that are either used only within a specialized field, or words that have specialized meaning when used in that field.  These 2 words fit neither criteria.

It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 14:41:40
I gave links to what the men of God ( could have given many, many more ) taught and believe in~not just men here and there, BUT CHURCHES throughout Europe and many of the first people who came to America in 1500 to 1600 hundred~I KNOW, I have personally visited certain places and saw first hand exactly what they taught ( by searching in their archives ) the people! From Georgetown S.C. to Jamestown Virginia, all the way up to Maine~PARTICLUAR BAPTIST that first settlers here taught exactly the doctrine of Justification through Christ's faith ALONE, that Samuel Richardson other Baptist churches taught in England~
Usually, I actively avoid theology from this period.  It is too far after-the-fact to hold weight as being the genuine opinions of the New Testament church.  It is too far behind-the-times to hold much relevancy to today.  Change my mind.

I provided just two links because you said: I have no idea what you're saying....Well, you should have at least known where I was coming from if you had a little knowledge of the church's history outside of the bia RCC history. It does not surprise me that you would disagree since you have never even considered the subject ( maybe never even heard of it ) in light of the old paths that men of God taught the people post 1800! Since it has gone done hill especially even more so since 1900 with the birth of the lying Charismatic movement with their lying signs and wonders that have taken the place of preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
I tend to prioritize the beliefs of the early church, and if a theological point doesn't exist within their paradigm... it must not be very important.  ::pondering::  Campbellite tendencies... I blame all of you here for that. rofl

I am still not entirely sure what point you were making, but... appealing to theologians from a few hundred years ago is not the way to my heart.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 15:22:21
It seems whatever topic we talk about it’s almost impossible to speak in jargonless terms. I know in speaking of the oil and gas industry, i don’t know how to speak about it in jargonless terms, even when I am conscious of laymen listeners of my language.
Jaime this is so true.
Quote
Acts 17:16-20~"Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean."
As far as these philosophers were concerned Paul's used jargon words only because they were ignorant of the truth, trusting in their own wisdom and what seemed right in their own eyes.  There are other examples of this in the scriptures~and after Paul explain it as simple as one could, they still mocked!
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Acts 17:32~"And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter."
Some believe~and these are the ones we are fishing for!
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Acts 17:34~"Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
It was not strange things to their ear...............jargon words, or words in the vernacular, bottom line, the Spirit of the Living God MUST open one's heart to see and believe the words of God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:10:03
In place of grace (χάρις), the modern word charitable fits the basic meaning.
Charitable and grace have totally two different meanings. A person can liberally give ( for different reasons ) and not have an ounce of grace in their hearts toward their enemies, and especially so toward those they are at enmity with! I'm being summons for supper by my little bride, so I will come back to this or start another thread. Maybe someone else can take this to another thread because I really want to get back to the subject.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Jaime on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:11:13
The essence of Christianity is derived from translated text. To me that’s why going back to the original meaning is so essential. It iS kind of ludicrous to depend on a very narrow English version of typically much broader Greek or Hebrew passage or group of passages. Particularly in the NT the Greek is SO much more descriptive. For instance for three Greek words Agape, Philileo and eros, three very distint things yet we have exactly one word “love” that is translated for all three words.

I don’t know if I agree that we rely on “jargon words”, but we DO rely on a translation in a much less descriptive language. And the version of this language is 400 some years old appearing to be laden with Jargon words apparently to some.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 16:49:09
Charitable and grace have totally two different meanings.
Whatever difference you think exists, should be immediately discarded and your definition corrected to this.  It's literally the same word.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 00:18:57
James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

DaveW, good point. I was just about ready to note the same verses. Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it. He was declared righteous by virtue of having the qualities/attributes of God (imputed righteousness)

From these verses it can be said that
1. Abraham was saved apart from the Levitical law because it did not exist yet.
2. Since the Levitical law did not exist at that time, Abraham was following something else.
3. That if you followed Abraham,you would be righteous as well.
4. Had the people of Israel followed Abraham, there would have been no need for the New Testament.


Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 01:33:56

I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.

Jarrod

Jarrod, I agree. Jesus was the "seed of Abraham". And when He came to His own, they did not know Him. They did not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or His word. To them, the word of God was the Levitical law, as Isaiah says "law upon law, precept upon precept, here a little there a little until they fell backward and were caught and ensnared." The Levitical law did contain some of God's Law. But,so much had been added to it over the years-"doctrines and traditions of men"- some of which were contrary to the Law of God thereby "making it of no effect." Jesus came to "raise up children unto Abraham" in the simple word of his God.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 06:41:27
I don't think there's anything in the Bible that's all that complicated.  A bunch of 1st-century fisherman were selected to pass it on to the world.  Tax-collectors and ditch-diggers understood it at the beginning.  The lawyers, politicians, and theologians of the day were specifically excluded.  Overcomplicating things was part of the initial problem that Jesus addressed.  I assume he did this in simple language, otherwise he was just contributing to the problem.
Even Peter thought that some of Paul's preaching and teaching was hard to understand (2 Pet 3:16).  And Paul was hardly a 1st-century fisherman.

And with all due respect, I think that you have not managed to unjargonize anything with your definitions; rather you have simply introduced redefined jargon.  For example, there are not two different words for belief and faith; there is only one, that is πίστις [pistis]. It is in the English that there are two words.  And for the verb form in the Greek, πιστεύω [pisteuo], it means basically the same as the English word believe.  To distinction to believe something or to believe IN something is essentially the same in Greek as πιστεύω [pisteuo] and πιστεύω εν [pisteuo en] or πιστεύω εις [pisteuo eis].  Only occasionally is the preposition en or eis implied by the context.  It is in English that faith has been jargonized by some who erroneously think the meaning of the faith when used in a religious connotation is understood differently than the meaning of faith when used in an other than religious connotation.

I tend to agree with you on the word perfect, but I could take issue with your presentations of grace and justification

I do agree that so much of the discussions here and in the field of religion, generally, words are used too often in ways by the writer that is not accepted or understood in the same way by the reader. And so iwhen reading anyone's posting here, it is necessary to understand the way in which the writer is using such words to decide whether the writer is using them in the way in which the Bible intends them.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 07:11:24
James 2:20  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
It seems clear here that you do not really understand what either James or Paul says or means when speaking of works in connection with justification.

Some of you might be familiar with Dr. Jordan Peterson; he is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, a public speaker, and a creator of Self Authoring.  If you haven't read or heard him, you should take the opportunity to do so.  He is very interesting, especially in some of his views on religion.  He says that he is often asked if he believes in God.  He says that he does not like the question and he usually goes on to say why he doesn't.  In a nutshell he says "How can anyone say they believe in God and then not do what He asks?"  I think that is very perceptive and I think that is the essence of how James uses works in his writing.  And that is somewhat different than Paul's typical context in his use of the word works.  A meaningful discussion of works as typically used by Paul and works as used by James requires more that a few words in a forum such as this.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 14:07:43
Even Peter thought that some of Paul's preaching and teaching was hard to understand (2 Pet 3:16).  And Paul was hardly a 1st-century fisherman.
I agree.  Perhaps that's why most of the heresies that the church has experienced since then were based on people following Paul and ignoring the rest of the Bible.

And with all due respect, I think that you have not managed to unjargonize anything with your definitions; rather you have simply introduced redefined jargon.  For example, there are not two different words for belief and faith; there is only one, that is πίστις [pistis].

That's why I listed it under just one heading.  ::lookaround::

It is in the English that there are two words.  And for the verb form in the Greek, πιστεύω [pisteuo], it means basically the same as the English word believe.  To distinction to believe something or to believe IN something is essentially the same in Greek as πιστεύω [pisteuo] and πιστεύω εν [pisteuo en] or πιστεύω εις [pisteuo eis].  Only occasionally is the preposition en or eis implied by the context.  It is in English that faith has been jargonized by some who erroneously think the meaning of the faith when used in a religious connotation is understood differently than the meaning of faith when used in an other than religious connotation.
I understand what you're saying, but I think there are differences you haven't touched on here.

Foremost, πίστις indicates a willingness to act.  The English word believe used to have this meaning (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lief#:~:text=(Entry%201%20of%202),2%20archaic%20%3A%20willing%2C%20glad), as well.  It no longer does.  It has come to mean mental assent, divorced from any action.

I could take issue with your presentations of grace and justification.
(https://www.themix.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/the-rock-raises-the-peoples-eyebrow.jpg)

I do agree that so much of the discussions here and in the field of religion, generally, words are used too often in ways by the writer that is not accepted or understood in the same way by the reader. And so when reading anyone's posting here, it is necessary to understand the way in which the writer is using such words to decide whether the writer is using them in the way in which the Bible intends them.
Why does it fall upon the hearer to do all of the work?  Shouldn't the speaker also endeavor to communicate in a way that can be understood?  Professional journalists write to a 4th-grade reading level to make their writing accessible... can I get some of that love?

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 15:46:37
Why does it fall upon the hearer to do all of the work?  Shouldn't the speaker also endeavor to communicate in a way that can be understood?  Professional journalists write to a 4th-grade reading level to make their writing accessible... can I get some of that love?

Jarrod
Most who post here, including me, are not very good at real communication in writing.  And unfortunately. most, including me, will probably not do what is necessary to become very good at real communication in writing.  In most of us probably wouldn't even be very good at communication in speaking.

And to make matters worse, the communication that does go on is too tightly bound up in our preconceived ideas involved about which we are attempting to communicate.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 01:24:54
Quote from: 4WD on Tue Sep 22, 2020 - 10:38:26
Nowhere else does it ever say that it was anything other than his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness.  So yes, it was his belief in God that was counted to Abraham for righteousness to begin with.  No other reason is ever given.
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From bel: 4WD, you said the above. James 2:20 says otherwise. Abraham was justified(declared righteous) by his faith in God AND his obedience to God's word(works). They go hand in hand.

In answer to Jarrod's post, grace also means refinement of movement, decency, behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality.

" For by refinement of movement, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."
"For by behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
"For by having the attributes/ qualities of God, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.

Having the attributes of God, not that of ourselves.

I'll add impute to the list: impute: to ascribe righteousness, guilt etc. to someone by virtue of having similar qualities in another.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 04:00:37
Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it.
I made a post yesterday and hit a wrong button accidentally~and decided I had other things to do and put this on the back burner.  So, let me make another attempt of picking up on the subject under consideration~a very important subject that is tied into the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As one as brought up already, Peter said Paul wrote some things hard to understand in his epistles, which he did, and Peter was not speaking of Paul's highly symbolical writings concerning eschatology~for he wrote very little on this subject~hardly any at all, and that with no symbolical words. The book of Romans is Paul's doctrinal exposition if any of his writings can be termed doctrinal exposition, along with Galatians 3,4; Ephesians 1-3; both on a lesser scale.

Romans 3:20-11:36~Are some of the hardest scriptures in the writings of the apostles to rightly divide~espically so from Romans 3:20-5:21 with Romans 4:1-5:2 being the very hardest of them all! I'm speaking from almost fifty years of experience with me reading behind every writer I could find to see their thoughts on these difficult scriptures, for I KNEW the truth of the gospel is to be found herein for those who seek it with all of their hearts.

The subject of works versus faith and the sense in which Paul used the word FAITH is absolutely critical for one to truly come to the knowledge of the truth. I have found that great men are not always wise and correct, men so much greater than myself, that I would not be worthy to serve them and to carry their mantle. Yet, we cannot follow men, but must be servants of God and his word as much as lieth within God be our helper.

So with this in mind, my desire is to move forward with addressing Romans three verse 20 down through Romans 5:2.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 00:18:57
Abraham was righteous because of his belief in God's word as well as his obedience to it.
The red highlights are mine for dissussion~RB.  Bel, that statement is diametrically opposed to the Spirit's testimony through the apostle Paul. This should concern you and anyone else that believes similar to your statement, if not word by word. Coming back to this.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 00:18:57
That if you followed Abraham, you would be righteous as well. Had the people of Israel followed Abraham, there would have been no need for the New Testament
We can give evidence we are righteous by living a life of faith without trusting in our works as a means of receiving God's promises. Only in that sense and in no other sense. Saints do not begin in the Spirit and end up trusting in their works as a means of inheriting eternal life~those who believe in that gospel have been bewitched by false prophets, evil workers, prophets of the concision generation.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:1-3~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Of course not, we were made legally perfect by God's grace through Christ's obedience and we prove this by totally trusting HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS/FAITH/OBEDIENCE as our surety before the God of all the earth. 

Romans 3:20 next.....RB
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Sep 25, 2020 - 14:04:10
In answer to Jarrod's post, grace also means refinement of movement, decency, behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality.

" For by refinement of movement, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."
"For by behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
"For by having the attributes/ qualities of God, you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God.
Using an English dictionary to interpret the Bible usually fails.  We'll just call this Exhibit A...
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 00:52:54

Saints do not begin in the Spirit and end up trusting in their works as a means of inheriting eternal life~those who believe in that gospel have been bewitched by false prophets, evil workers, prophets of the concision generation. Of course not, we were made legally perfect by God's grace through Christ's obedience and we prove this by totally trusting HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS/FAITH/OBEDIENCE as our surety before the God of all the earth. 

Romans 3:20 next.....RB

RB, I think you are misinterpreting Galatians 3:1-3. Paul is talking about the LEVITICAL law, not the Law of God. There is a difference. To the Jewish people the Levitical law WAS the word of God, as Isaiah says "to them the word of God was precept upon precept, law upon law, here a little there a little that they might fall backward and be broken and ensnared." However, it contained laws, doctrines and traditions OF MEN.
The True Law(word) of God was demonstrated in Jesus Christ, and is summed up in two commandments "Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and soul", and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Paul makes it clear that they are to OBEY the truth.




Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 01:00:50
Using an English dictionary to interpret the Bible usually fails.  We'll just call this Exhibit A...

Jarrod, if you don't have the grace of God, as in goodwill towards men, being kind and gracious,loving, forgiving etc.etc. are you saved?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 05:21:22
RB, I think you are misinterpreting Galatians 3:1-3. Paul is talking about the LEVITICAL law, not the Law of God. There is a difference.
Bel, this section of God's word are those very scriptures that Peter thought was hard to understand~the reading is not hard or anywhere in the scriptures, as far as that goes~it IS the SENSE that is so hard to grasp a hold of, or to rightly divide them properly so as to cause people to understand the truth of the gospel.....a truly biblical sense that so far has eluded your understanding of the truth of the gospel.
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Galatians 3:1-3~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The works of the law, can be summed up as "any and all works" that we have an active part in, be whatever....it becomes a WORK of some commandments, and BASED ON THIS.....Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9)....but PLEASE NOTE, Paul was speaking in this sense only: weak and unprofitable; carnal; rudiments of this world; as far as being means of INHERITING ETERNAL LIFE~that's the very purpose as to why Christ came, it is because of the WEAKNESS of SINFUL human flesh being unable to keep the commandment of God WITHOUT sinning and without corrupting them as many of Israel did, including the Levites who were the leaders in doing so.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 23:56:31
Bel, this section of God's word are those very scriptures that Peter thought was hard to understand~the reading is not hard or anywhere in the scriptures, as far as that goes~it IS the SENSE that is so hard to grasp a hold of, or to rightly divide them properly so as to cause people to understand the truth of the gospel.....a truly biblical sense that so far has eluded your understanding of the truth of the gospel.

RB, The Levitical law contained commandments of men and that's why it was annulled. The commandments of God still apply. For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says "I know Him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him, But whoever keeps his word, truly the love of God is PERFECTED in him.

"But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in the mirror."

"For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:"You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another beware lest you be consumed by one another."

Again, when the rich man asked Jesus, " What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said, "If you want life, follow the commandments of God."

God's Law is eternal, it does not pass away.

Whether or not one believes in the Law of reciprocity, we are all subject to it. We either love one another as ourselves or we fall to destruction.

As far as life after we leave this earth goes, if you believe in " on earth as it is in heaven" then the same Law applies. However, I believe that the Bible was written for instruction to those living on earth as human beings. Do the same rules apply to those who are no longer human? Who knows. I suppose that is a topic for another thread. All I know is that God will be there.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 04:11:56
RB, The Levitical law contained commandments of men and that's why it was annulled. The commandments of God still apply. For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.
Bel/GB, Laws are LAWS....now, that being said, there were many, many laws that pertaineth only to Israel that were a type, or symbolical of them being a separate people from other nations mainly found in Leviticus, which lasted only until the time of reformation going from OT Moses' religion to the religion of the Son of God.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 3:1-5~"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."
I'm holding on fast to CHRIST, and refuse to turn back to Moses to seek my forgiveness from him!
Quote from: Paul a natural-born Jews
2nd Corinthians 3:5-15~"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."
As it is upon your heart, and will remain as long as you seek forgiveness through obeying Moses' law~which IS GLORIOUS, yet at the same time tells you THIS MOUNTAIN IS NO HIDING PLACE FOR SINNERS! We were born of the Spirit, and refuse to seek perfection by Moses' law~which again ARE spiritual, good, and holy, far ABOVE our strength, and power to obey them perfectly, even though our desires are to do so~THEREBY, we seek for forgiveness THROUGH Jesus Christ.

As I said above, many laws ( in Leviticus ) were given only to the nation of Israel as a type or symbol of their sepatation from other nation which ONLY lasted until the coming of Christ ~mainly their dress codes and dietary laws~which we see clearly from Acts 10 that this is so. No law was EVER given to give the sinners HOPE of eternal life by obeying them, NOT EVEN ONE~except to Adam, and we know that he failed to keep just one simple commandment, that should tell you something, if you would just consider it.  That being said, and I trust, clearly~I will say this so there will be no misunderstanding between us:  "God's commandments SUMMED UP in the Ten Commandments are the very ones our new man SERVES and DELIGHTS IN, yet doing so, we see our NEED of Christ more than ever, since we know SIN IS PRESENT in our most holy moments~in our prayers, witnessing, testifying of God's goodness, in correcting our children, you name it, SIN IS PRESENT to our own grief of spirit if one is honest and is not deceived by his own self-worth.  Well, I know what in your heart, BECAUSE I know my OWN SINFUL heart~sin dwells in all of us, just some of us can mortify sin and some do not have the power to do so.
Quote from: Bel Reply #233 on: Yesterday at 23:56:31
For someone who thought the commandments of God were but "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements" as you put it, Paul sure does issue a lot of commands as do all the rest of the New Testament writer's.
Bel/GB, I have given you the proper SENSE in which they are "carnal ordinances, weak and unprofitable and beggarly elements"~and the sense in which they are not.

I want to move on to Romans 3:20....RB
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 15:32:27
RB, the Levitical law was not given to the people of Israel. Abraham wasn't following it. That's what the writer's of the New Testament are trying to say. The Levitical law was not the Law of Abraham's God. It wasn't the word of Israel's God, and the people who followed it were not Abraham's children. Abraham's God did not demand animal sacrifices let alone human sacrifices. These are the demands of pagan gods. As explained in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. All their fathers were baptized into Moses. All ate the SAME spiritual food and drank the SAME spiritual drink. For all drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ. This means that they received the SAME spiritual teaching of God's word as that which Jesus taught. But some rejected it and went their own way.

As Isaiah says, these are the sacrifices which the one True God requires of us: Cease to do evil and learn to do good and your sins will become white as snow. Isaiah chapter 58 explains the fast that God wants from us. In THIS we are perfected.

The commandments of God are given for our own spiritual well-being and the spiritual well-being of others. "If you do well it will be well with you."

As an added note: I forgive and believe that I will be forgiven as Scripture says. Again, it is the Law of reciprocity.

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:10:03
And that’s why you will always fail. If only I do this and that. If I’m good enough and follow all these rules and regulations. Then in my mind I am accepted and loved .   Never going to feel it.

Freedom is being with the one WHO IS LIFE . The life who HE IS removes the death in us . His life is released to us .....not because we have polished the silver. It’s by being with him in the spirit realm. Just love him , just adore him and bring your troubles before him. Share your life with him .  It’s that simple.

Think about all the encounter that are written in the Bible. It’s not just words. HE APPEARED with all his Glory .

The glory realm that many fell at the feet of angels. Who’s got faith now and how did that faith come?

Think about that for a minute.

We now read the Bible , and does God almighty,  the Lord Jesus Christ appear in his glory , in his fullness that passed before Moses . I could go on.    No no no

Our faith like there’s, comes  from him when he meet with us .transfered to us by spirit his spirit .The giver of life . I am the way the truth AND THE LIFE . His righteousness.   When we read his word or engage in prayer and worship.

His life is transferred into us as the bread from heaven. His righteousness clothes us again and again .

If we don’t eat of him daily we become stale . We feel dead , because we lack the LIFE force of him in us.

It’s this ....to love him with all your heart soul  strength and mind ......by now .....you can’t help to love your neighbour as yourself.If you have his life ?

If you don’t then repeat number 1 until you do.

So my righteousness comes from him and it then gets expressed to others in works of love . Christ in me 

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:17:42
O but didn’t I do this and that IN YOUR NAME  ,  cast out demons . Was not my works enough Lord.

Depart from my presence BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW YOU



Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:35:40
Good people who do good works outside of Christ go to hell
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 03:47:55
How about this one....I just get thinking ....did pharaoh do the works of God? Did not God harden his heart,  so God could show himself almighty?

Did these works make him righteous before God? 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 14:18:27
Bemark, you said," And that's why you will always fail. If  I only do this and that."

Do YOU love God with all your heart mind and soul, and do YOU love others as yourself, or did Jesus do these things for you because you are incapable of doing so? If the answer yes to the first two questions then you are righteous before God. And yes, loving your neighbor as yourself involves good works.
"A good man out of the treasure of his heart brings forth good things."

Back to my first to questions, are they not commandments of God and do you obey them? If yes then your are following a rule.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:45:55
Bel you are never going to be able to do that 100% of the time.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:52:14
So if I'm not following the rule 100% of the time then I'm breaking the rule when I don't. So if I'm breaking the rule like we all do . Then its Christs righteous act that has made me right before God  weather I'm obeying the rules or not. 100% all of the time in thought and action. Impossible.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 28, 2020 - 16:57:14
I am not righteous.  He has made me righteous  or right before God, in him, Christ Jesus.My righteous works will give me treasures in heaven. I can't worship him 24/7  and love
my neighbour's like my self 24/7. I can't do righteous works 24/7
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 00:05:01
Good people who do good works outside of Christ go to hell

Bemark, According to Scripture, those who do not have the Law, but do what is required by the Law are righteous before God as well. This means that even though you haven't been taught the Law, but do good things out of the goodness of your heart, you are still considered righteous.

In response to the rest of your posts, according to Scripture, you'll need to "work out your salvation.", which means to work on yourself, your relationship with God and  your relationships with other people. "Hold every thought captive." Discipline your mind and don't let sin take root and rule over you. Don't dwell on things that are not good. No, we're not going to get it right 100% of the time because we are not God. But when we "fall off the horse", seek forgiveness, get back up and go forward. As it is said, " Love covers a lot of sins." Just be the best person you can be. That's what God is looking for.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 01:28:56
Adolf hitler loved his mother and father  . Honoured him and her so it would go well for him.

I don’t know if he did or not .....just sayin

So now this one righteous act saves him ? Christ didn’t have to die at all

He is now righteous before God.

Come on.

If that’s the case,  let’s keep the gospel a secret and not tell people about Christ ....and hope people at least do 1 commandment right. Just 1. Because then they will be judged righteous . All will be saved outside of Christ.


Because if we taught Christ and they reject him .....now what?

It just doesn’t add up.

Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 03:35:53
I am not righteous.  He has made me righteous or right before God, in him, Christ Jesus.  My righteous works will not give me treasures in heaven. I can't worship him 24/7 and love my neighbour's like my self 24/7. I can't do righteous works 24/7
Mark you are being honest and truthful~ no man can, but it's more than that, EVEN when we do WHAT GOD COMMANDS, sin "IS" STILL present, and all honest believers will confess this is so, if he does not, then he is not a believer of Jesus Christ, he's a liar and the truth is not in him.
Quote from: Righteous John
1st John 1:8~"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
This is the very truth that so grieved Paul in Romans 7.
Quote
Romans 7:17,18~"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
"to perform that which is good I find not'~To perform that which is good~meaning the law of God in PERFECTION he could not find IN HIS FLESH, or old man!
Quote from: Bemark on: Yesterday at 16:57:14
I can't worship him 24/7 and love my neighbor's like my self 24/7. I can't do righteous works 24/7
Brother, you are 100% correct as far as in its perfection, no man can get even close, only one did it in its perfection and his name was JESUS CHRIST the Son of the Living God and he is now highly exalted to God's right hand HIGH ABOVE ALL where he should be~even though others think they should be there IN THEIR FLESH.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 03:47:38
RB I agree with you.
You bring it together with the word.  When we are real about ourselves, like Paul was. like you said it above,  then we know it’s him , and it’s always been him, his righteousness 

He brings us down into the valley so we can see, so our faith in ourselves is truely broken. We see what Paul sore in himself. Not much. I bet his faith levels in himself was now crushed by the master. Lol





Thankyou RB .
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 04:17:58
RB, the Levitical law was not given to the people of Israel. Abraham wasn't following it. That's what the writer's of the New Testament are trying to say. The Levitical law was not the Law of Abraham's God. It wasn't the word of Israel's God, and the people who followed it were not Abraham's children. Abraham's God did not demand animal sacrifices let alone human sacrifices. These are the demands of pagan gods.
Bel, I'm jumping off of this merry-go-round as soon as I give you a brief word or two about what you posted. Sir, you weary yourself and others in the fabrication of subtleties; but it is God's children business, as I have often shown, to cultivate sobriety and honested in interpreting God's word.

To say that the Levitical law was not given to Israel puts the burden on people like YOU to tell us TO WHOM was the book of Levitical written to~Eypyt, China, India? As far as:
Quote from: Bel bel on: Sun Sep 27, 2020 - 15:32:27
Abraham's God did not demand animal sacrifices
What book do you read from that said it is the WORD OF GOD, surely not Bible as we know it? if so, then all you are doing is showing all just how blind you are! Not only did God command Abraham to offer animal sacrifices God himself killed an animal and cloth our first parent~and then Abel who was righteous did the same. Gensis 3:21; Genesis 4:4; Genesis 15:9 NOT that he took pleasure in them for he DID NOT~ yet, there was a NO better way of causing them to SEE that only death of an innocent sacrifice could atone for their sin. So much more could be provided, but enough to show you are one very confused person.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 04:46:19
Do YOU love God with all your heart mind and soul, and do YOU love others as yourself, or did Jesus do these things for you because you are incapable of doing so? If the answer yes to the first two questions then you are righteous before God. And yes, loving your neighbor as yourself involves good works. "A good man out of the treasure of his heart brings forth good things."
Bel, I'm going to lend a helping hand to my brother Mark as his older brother in the faith. I'm my brother's keeper from wolves and dogs, with two legs.

Every child of God SHOULD labor to keep the two main commandments of Loving God and our neighbors as ourselves~ which as we know, SUMMS up God's commandments to us. Yet in doing so, sin IS PRESENT, meaning that our flesh keeps us from PERFECTLY obeying the word of God~I am speaking of born again children of God, the world has NO DESIRE to even retain God in their thoughts, so they are NOT even under consideration in this post.

Even in obeying, PRIDE is present; even in obeying, hatred is present; even in obeying, we fight every known sin under heaven in greater or lesser degree, to ALMOST no degree!  Sin is PRESENT IN our wicked flesh that is passed down to us from Adam. To deny this is to deny so many cardinal truths of the holy scriptures. Though we CAN BE subject to the law of GOd, we cannot render righteousness without our best righteousness being mixed with sin, IMPOSSIBLE. It so grieves us, but it is so!
Quote from: Bel on: Yesterday at 14:18:27
did Jesus do these things for you because you are incapable of doing so?
You better believe that he DID, or else you have NO hope of eternal life, NONE WHATSOEVER!
Quote from: Paul's hope of DELIVERANCE
Romans 7:24,25~"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 22:32:47
What book do you read from that said it is the WORD OF GOD, surely not Bible as we know it? if so, then all you are doing is showing all just how blind you are! Not only did God command Abraham to offer animal sacrifices God himself killed an animal and cloth our first parent~and then Abel who was righteous did the same. Gensis 3:21; Genesis 4:4; Genesis 15:9 NOT that he took pleasure in them for he DID NOT~ yet, there was a NO better way of causing them to SEE that only death of an innocent sacrifice could atone for their sin. So much more could be provided, but enough to show you are one very confused person.

RB, I believe this may be a topic for another thread, but I will quickly respond to your post here.

Isaiah 1: 11-15 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs and goats. When you come to appear before Me, WHO has required this from your hand, to trample My courts.Bring no more futile sacrifices.............."

As Elijah said: "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God , follow him. But if Baal is God , follow him.

You're saying that God is commanding people to do things that he despises. ??  I don't think I'm the one that's confused here.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 29, 2020 - 22:41:02
Bel, I'm going to lend a helping hand to my brother Mark as his older brother in the faith. I'm my brother's keeper from wolves and dogs, with two legs.

Even in obeying, PRIDE is present; even in obeying, hatred is present; even in obeying, we fight every known sin under heaven in greater or lesser degree, to ALMOST no degree! 

Then I suggest you put away your pride and your hatred. " No one can serve two masters."
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 02:15:06
Bel I want to show you something

We know that God says don’t kill.

But then he commanads man to kill. Not only man, but women and children cattle etc. he also,wiped out nearly all in the flood and will the next with fire.

Look at what God held above scarifices . It was obedience.

Obedience TO KILL man women and children. Animals. Slaughter the lot.
1 Samuel
New King James Version
Saul Spares King Agag

15 Samuel also said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack[a] Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

4 So Saul gathered the people together and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men of Judah. 5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and lay in wait in the valley.

6 Then Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart, get down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them. For you showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 And Saul attacked the Amalekites, from Havilah all the way to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8 He also took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were unwilling to utterly destroy them. But everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.

Saul Rejected as King

10 Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, 11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 12 So when Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul, it was told Samuel, saying, “Saul went to Carmel, and indeed, he set up a monument for himself; and he has gone on around, passed by, and gone down to Gilgal.” 13 Then Samuel went to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed are you of the Lord! I have performed the commandment of the Lord.”

14 But Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?”

15 And Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and the oxen, to sacrifice to the Lord your God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.”

16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Be quiet! And I will tell you what the Lord said to me last night.”

And he said to him, “Speak on.”

17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the [c]spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?”

20 And Saul said to Samuel, “But I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and gone on the mission on which the Lord sent me, and brought back Agag king of Amalek; I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the plunder, sheep and oxen, the best of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the Lord your God in Gilgal.”

22 So Samuel said:

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of [d]witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”

Makes you wonder dosent it . What did the little babies do? And the animals?

God is just and righteous IN ALL THAT HE DOES.

His ways are higher than ours.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 02:16:21
I don’t know why it gets highlighted like it does when I cut and paste. I never ment it to be that way.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 02:38:39
He is a good father
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 05:17:57
RB, I believe this may be a topic for another thread, but I will quickly respond to your post here.
You brought the subject up and I only proved you do not know what you are talking about, so you want to drop it like a hot potato! You do not think I do not see through this, and others do as well. But, at least you are wise enough to run for the hills when you see you have been exposed as a fraud by SCRIPTURES you cannot refute.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 22:32:47
RB, I believe this may be a topic for another thread, but I will quickly respond to your post here.
So, set that error of yours ASIDE as though you did not say it, and move on to another lie~because you MUST still try to push forward your false doctrine.
Quote
Isaiah 1: 11-15 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs and goats. When you come to appear before Me, WHO has required this from your hand, to trample My courts.Bring no more futile sacrifices.............."
Their sin was NOT in the multitude of their offerings, it was in the MANNER in which they were done! SIN ruled in their hearts both toward God and their neighbors while they did what God ordained to be done! They did not keep their hearts with all diligence as commanded, above ALL of their other commandments. Keeping our hearts is MUCH GREATER evidence of true faith than going through the motions of religious duties! This is what God is condemning in the scriptures you have put forth. Sacrifices were part of Israel's outward worship~God's seeks those who worship him in spirit and truth. God wants our hearts pure before him which alone is what constitutes TRUE religion and undefiled before God. Just as Jesus said here:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 23:23~“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
Same thing we are saying to you concerning animal sacrifices in the OT. So, again you use scriptures out of context, or you just refuse to address them.
Quote from: Poor Bel on: Yesterday at 22:32:47
I don't think I'm the one that's confused here.
I'm sure you do not think so~that's called DECEPTION.
 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 07:14:55
RB, bel (and GB) believes that all of the laws, the rituals, and the rules and regulations given in the Torah, except the Ten Commandments, were issued by men not by God.  So long as he believes such nonsense, he cannot understand and believe much of anything you say.  His mistaken beliefs about the OT laws results in his lack of understanding of most of the NT.  There is simply no way he can be so wrong about what God says in the OT and understand what God says in the NT. Since he doesn't understand atonement in the OT, there is no way for him to understand atonement in the NT. 
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 17:40:50
Jarrod, if you don't have the grace of God, as in goodwill towards men, being kind and gracious,loving, forgiving etc.etc. are you saved?
I'm having a hard time comprehending the question.  Generic answer...

The Bible says that God's grace (not ours) is the reason that anybody-at-all is ever regenerated.  This is the "why" of salvation.

Faith is the means by which that salvation is effected.  Faith is the "how" of salvation.

Did that answer the question?
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 17:52:31
Adolf hitler loved his mother and father  . Honoured him and her so it would go well for him.

I don’t know if he did or not .....just sayin

So now this one righteous act saves him ? Christ didn’t have to die at all

He is now righteous before God.

Come on.

If that’s the case,  let’s keep the gospel a secret and not tell people about Christ ....and hope people at least do 1 commandment right. Just 1. Because then they will be judged righteous . All will be saved outside of Christ.

Because if we taught Christ and they reject him .....now what?

It just doesn’t add up.
I guess this couldn't end without someone bringing Hitler into it.  ::noworries::

Mark,

This commandment doesn't work this way.  "Honor" means financial support within this verse (yay more jargon).  The commandment is this - financially support your folks when they're old.  And the reward?  Long life - because when you're old you're financially supported by your own kids.

As an individual, adhering to the command doesn't do anything for you.  As part of a family who transmits this as part of their system of values, generation to generation... it ensures that everyone is cared for in old age.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Wed Sep 30, 2020 - 23:58:43
I guess this couldn't end without someone bringing Hitler into it.  ::noworries::

Mark,

This commandment doesn't work this way.  "Honor" means financial support within this verse (yay more jargon).  The commandment is this - financially support your folks when they're old.  And the reward?  Long life - because when you're old you're financially supported by your own kids.

As an individual, adhering to the command doesn't do anything for you.  As part of a family who transmits this as part of their system of values, generation to generation... it ensures that everyone is cared for in old age.

Jarrod
Wow W.S . I did not know that. I heard my parents ....well my mother say it sometimes in the way that I explained it, maybe even in church.

Bless you my brother. :). I love being schooled by some of the best
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Bemark on Thu Oct 01, 2020 - 00:00:55
There was no mention of hitler.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: DaveW on Thu Oct 01, 2020 - 09:36:34
So now this one righteous act saves him ? Christ didn’t have to die at all
He is now righteous before God.
That and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee.

Sinful or not does NOT determine salvation.  That is determined by Covenant.
Title: Re: Our faith, or Christ's faith accounted for us as righteousness?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 01, 2020 - 10:13:22
That and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee.
That inflation, though.  rofl rofl